Sink the Yorktown and bring in another ship
This will be an unpopular position, especially on Memorial Day Weekend, but one that must be considered.
Faced with insurmountable costs of preserving the aging fleet of World War II ships displayed at the Patriots Point Naval and Maritime Museum in Mount Pleasant, perhaps it's time to consider a proper burial at sea for the aircraft carrier Yorktown and the failing fleet that makes up the popular exhibit.
While the venerable "Fighting Lady" has been part of the skyline of Charleston Harbor since 1975, ships of that era are well past their prime and will continue to cost enormous sums of money to maintain.
Built to survive a great world war and maybe a few years beyond, these craft have been the epicenter of the tourism boom that helped make Charleston the destination city it is today.
But with all due respect to the Greatest Generation, it may be time to retire these icons and consider an alternative plan.
Time and tide
Experts recently estimated it would take $64 million to repair the four warships berthed along the banks of the Cooper River. That's a lot of money the state authority does not have and probably cannot raise from ticket sales, which are in decline.
The exhibit includes the aircraft carrier Yorktown, the destroyer Laffey, the submarine Clamagore and the Coast Guard cutter Ingham.
All seemed like good ideas at the time they were moored in the pluff mud and put on display. Time and tide, however, have turned them into rusting hulks.
Patriots Point officials, therefore, are mired in a deepening dilemma about what to do, saying a new financial model is desperately needed to support the exhibits.
While this idea will be perceived as blasphemous in some circles, perhaps it is time to sink these ships and bring in other attractions.
What about a decommissioned, modern-day nuclear aircraft carrier? Surely the U.S. Navy could provide a decommissioned replacement every quarter-century that could serve as a replacement.
Such a ship would reinvigorate interest and still house aircraft from the past as well as the Medal of Honor Museum and other important exhibits.
Then, every 25 years or so, haul that one off to a watery grave and bring in another ship.
That concept would maintain interest and theoretically cut down on what has become an eternal maintenance problem.
Right time
When posed with this possibility, interim executive director Dick Trammell predictably said he would not be in favor of ditching the current ships.
"Some things are worth protecting," he said.
And he's probably right. History is important. But it's also expensive.
Keeping these ships in pristine condition in perpetuity just isn't financially feasible. And good intentions won't solve the problem these old ships present to the next generation and the one after that.
Fifty years from now, how much will it cost to keep these old boats afloat? The numbers would be staggering.
If nothing else, some uncomfortable ideas must be brought to the table. This may not be the right answer, but it is the right time.
Reach Ken Burger at kburger@postandcourier.com or 937-5598. To read previous columns, go to postandcourier.com/burger.
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Comments
sardis12 (anonymous) says...
I agree. Now excuse me while I run for cover...
May 24, 2009 at 3:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
RHamilton (anonymous) says...
The US Navy is decommissioning CVN-65 soon. It is nicknamed the "Big E" We know it as The USS Enterprise -- built in the South (Newport News, Virginia). We should explore bringing her home to Charleston and the wealth-of-history she brings...
It is perhaps time for our Yorktown and sister ships to be laid to rest placed on eternal patrol. The costs do not outweigh the common sense approach of doing what's right not to mention the possible ecological concerns of deterioration of the vessels and rust like contaminants to surrounding Mt. Pleasant marshes. This metal like structure is not eternal no matter how many Band-Aids are applied.
I would question though if The USS Enterprise were brought to Charleston would there be any concern of residual-nuclear material? Or, are these vessels completely decon' from hazmat after decommissioning?
R Hamilton
City of Charleston
May 24, 2009 at 3:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
serenitynow (anonymous) says...
And once more, we are forced to lose a part of history along with our already short memory spans. The feeling of walking the Laffey after reading a detailed account of the kamikazee attack on it was an experience I'll never forget: one that etched the heroism forever in my mind. sigh... I hope we get ample chances to take photographs before the end.
May 24, 2009 at 5:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CNSYD (anonymous) says...
In my view, more research should have gone into this article. USS Intrepid is part of a exhibit that includes other ships similar to the Yorktown exhibit. What has been their experience? How are they funded? What is their maintenance plan and what does it cost? There have been battleship exhibits in other states for years. What are their long term plans? All this article seems to do is roll a grenade across the table.
IRT exhibits of nuclear powered ships. Ain't going to happen. Except for USS Nautilus (which is a Navy maintained exhibit on an active base) all former ships and submarines either have been or are scheduled to be dismantled. CVN-65 has eight reactors. Not exactly what you want to have to deal with.
Maintenance of ships has always been an expensive business. That should have been understood and planned for at the onset.
May 24, 2009 at 5:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
There is a precedent for what Ken is talking about - the nuclear powered ship Savannah (sp.) Was on display a PP, for a few years, and then was moved away - don't know where.
An alternate to sinking these ships would be to send them to the breakers (salvage yard what cuts the ships up and sells the scrap) - PP might even make some money on the deal.
Don't know the details, but a nuclear powered ship could not be scuttled without removing all power plan components that are radioactive.
May 24, 2009 at 5:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tides (anonymous) says...
"Sink the Yorktown and bring in another ship"???
What a tasteless heading on the eve of Memorial Day! *sigh*
May 24, 2009 at 6:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MP (anonymous) says...
Another solution. Dig out a channel on dry land to move it into, then drain out the water and fill dirt around it so that it is sitting as if it were still in the water. Do the same with the others. Now, no more water problem, no more threat of sinking.
If we do decide to do away with any of them, making them an offshore reef would be better than any other alternative!
May 24, 2009 at 6:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charbookguy (anonymous) says...
Mr Graham should have waited until after the day when we honor our fallen heroes to propose scrapping what is a major symbol of our Veteran's sacrifice.The Yorktown might be a "rusting hulk" to Mr Graham, but not to many thousands of our citizens who were young men when they served. For them the "Fighting Lady" was home away from home, and where many saw their friends die brutal deaths in defense of this country. For the families of the fallen, often the mighty warship setting sail for far shores was the last memory they had of loved ones who never returned. The Yorktown then, has become a highly visual embodiment of their memory and sacrifice, a living monument which the reporter would so callously discard to pay for our government's excesses.
Speaking of cost, if Mr Graham considers a 30,000 ton ship costs "enormous sums of money to maintain", imagine what an 80,000-100,000 ton aircraft carrier would cost in annual upkeep, which he proposes to replace the Yorktown with, which is the size of the average nuclear powered flattop. I can imagine the environmental advocates howling at the very idea of a giant nuclear ship in Charleston Harbor, no matter how well the reactors are cleaned up.
Considering the Yorktown's age (commissioned in 1943), there are older iron vessels as national monuments, including the battleship USS Texas commissioned in 1914 at the beginning of the First World War. Overseas the British still maintain her first ironclad battleship, HMS Warrior, a 10,000 ton ship which was built when the US Civil War was ongoing!
Mr Graham does have a right to his opinion, but honoring our servicemen is not just about slapping up any old monument to make ourselves feel better that we "support the troops". It is about memories, and if we destroy the Yorktown, for many the memories die with her.
May 24, 2009 at 7:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Grinder (anonymous) says...
First of all CHARBOOKGUY, his name is Burger, not Graham! Second, Ken, there might have been a better time, but as always, the point of a column is to stir things up, so maybe no better time.
My real question, though, is how are you going to dig the Y-Town out of the mud, and tow a ship that size with an obviously leaky bottom out to sea. Chances are that it would sink in the harbor or in the jetties and obstruct the shipping channel. Oh, that's right, for just a "few" millions of dollars estimated by some costly study, the ship(s) can be refurbished to the point of being able to float, THEN be scuttled at sea. Kinda like Vietnam... questionable reasons to get into it, hard as hell - and expensive, and wasteful - to get out of intact.
In any event, thank you for your service, Ken.
May 24, 2009 at 7:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wilyred (anonymous) says...
If anyone thinks it's expensive to keep it here, wait till the cost of satisfying the environmental mandates prior to scuttling are revealed. Might end up spending another 25 yrs at the point!
May 24, 2009 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
The Brits keep most of their historic ships on land. This reduces the upkeep. I don't know if that is possible with a carrier but the subs and destroyers certainly could be on land.
Think about it, they have less land and a higher population density than the US.
Drag them out and put them on the bank somewhere.
May 24, 2009 at 9:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rollnwflo (anonymous) says...
A poster on a previous article on this subject raised the question of using a cofferdam to save the ships. It would work much like the effort on the Morris Island Light House rescue. Build a cofferdam around it, pump the water out, fill with concrete and paint it blue. I know that it would be more difficult than it sounds, but once history is lost, its gone forever.
May 24, 2009 at 9:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
potholes (anonymous) says...
Build a EPA/DHEC approved seawall around all of them, pump out the seawater, fill with dirt, plant your favorite groundcover vegetation. My consulting fee is ...........
Many thanks to my fellow veterans and their families for their service on this Memorial Day weekend.
May 24, 2009 at 9:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CWL922 (anonymous) says...
I think people are getting radiation poisoning with just the thought of a nuclear aircraft carrier or any ship in their backyard. They are allready calling their lawyer with the symptoms of radiation poisoning. They will see it as a chance to make a buck.
May 24, 2009 at 9:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
Looks like we have a lot of good ideas about saving these ships - perhaps a combination would work. Put the smaller ones on the hill (ie in a hole and block them up so that they can be cleaned, painted, maintained and the holes covered to represent the water). Put a coffer dam around the Y Town, keep it pumped out, block it up etc. Incasing the ships' hulls in dirt or concrete would lead to more corrosion and other problems. I wonder if the powers that be are up to new ideas?
May 24, 2009 at 10:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reader (anonymous) says...
How about just getting rid of the minor attractions and keeping the Yorktown? I mean, not even PP advertizes its attraction with references to the Coast Guard cutter Ingham. I've never had any interest in seeing the Yorktown, but I understand it is a big (literall) attraction for Charleston. Let's focus on that and jettison the newer ships.
May 24, 2009 at 10:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
seneca264 (anonymous) says...
I have pondered over this problem for a couple of minutes and have arrived at a solution. The state of South Carolina currently spends well over 87 million dollars a year to "take care" of the illegal population. I am sure that the actual number is higher. Let's stick with the 87 million for the sake of discussion.
Mr. Burger stated in his article that the "experts recently estimated it would take $64 million to repair the four warships". If we terminate all state funding for illegals at the tune of 87 million a year, we would have more than enough money to repair and maintain the exhibit.
May 24, 2009 at 10:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
postman01 (anonymous) says...
There's a serious logistical problem with Mr. Burger's proposal. The Yorktown isn't floating.
This is yet more evidence that Burger needs to go back to sports reporting and STAY THERE.
If he had bothered to check the P & C's files completely, he would have found out that the Yorktown was deliberately "sunk" in place when it was originally brought here. The lower part of the hull is flooded with water ON PURPOSE. The reasoning at the time was that this would avoid problems with mooring, the ship rising and lowering due to tides, etc.
So, since it is not seaworthy and can't even float in its current condition, it can not be towed anywhere. It would either have to be dismantled or refloated--both very expensive and time-consuming propositions. Just imagine getting the permits form the green eco-freak left wingers to do this.
And then comes the main point, people. When are you going to start listening to me and others like me (Glen Beck, for example).
This is a left wing reporter working for a left wing publication. This means that everything said and the motive for same is suspect. In this case, it's the common left wing error of not doing one's homework and just jumping on (or trying to create) an emotional bandwagon that ignores FACTS. This is the same mental error EXACTLY that we are seeing in the debate about Gitmo, where the retarded left wingers are finding out that their kindergarten fantasy about magically closing Gitmo has MAJOR LEAGUE problems, to say the least.
Most of us graduated from Kindergarten a long time ago. Isn't it time to DISMISS all the left wingers who haven't in disgrace from public life and the news media? Isn't it time to IGNORE them and make it such that they simply can not compel our attention and concern?
May 24, 2009 at 10:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Postman, you jumped from a rational, logical point to completely off-the-wall conspiracy theory.
It's a hard sell to call a Charleston newspaper a left wing publication. I think it's more accurate to say that the Post and Courier presents either a balanced set of views or doesn't endorse one view over any other. Therein lies the problem, as since it doesn't endorse your view, then it MUST support the opposite, right? Well, wrong. Relax. Just because a newspaper doesn't espouse your chosen political tendencies doesn't automatically mean it's espousing only or specifically the opposite political tendencies.
May 24, 2009 at 11:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Darth (anonymous) says...
This is my first post so I guess I'll get the usual who are you? My employees are the only one's that call me Darth so I thought that would be appropriate considering how nasty ya'll can be on comments by normal people. I've watched the Charleston area change for the past 32 years and went through Hugo. That doesn't make me yet a native but I do have a warm spot since I raised my 2 kids and they are Charleston natives living here with their children now.
My question is this. When was the last time any of you took the time to enjoy the exhibit and functions that are part of our heritage and history? How many of you have been there when the men and women who sacrificed their lives because they or a loved one served on any of the vessels displayed came to reunions? Timing of the column? What diffrence does it make, ask those that served.The decision to sink, dismantle, or preserve should be of those that served instead of left or right, politition or masses. They are the ones that truly have a stake in the vessels future and their memories.
May 24, 2009 at 11:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
Darth
I have been here a bit longer (1954) and have been to PP once recently and it was OK. This discussion has nothing to do with respect, it has do due with cost, practicality and who is going to pay. Throughout history there have been many ships with great war records that have disappeared, with a few exceptions, either below the waves or in the scrap yard. These are tough times and money is needed for higher priority items.
May 24, 2009 at 12:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
Darth
Yes, you have to have a thick skin to enter this arena, due to diverging opinions, but the folks are ok, with the exception of the politicos and trolls. Just ignore the politicos and trolls.
May 24, 2009 at 12:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JF (anonymous) says...
The ships were built quickly to fight, not to last for a hundred years. Sitting in salt water and the elements will corrode these ships into rust no matter how much money is thrown at it. Time to rethink the Patriots Point plan, or lack of one.
May 24, 2009 at 12:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Squidward (anonymous) says...
I served on CVN-65 after a 5-year yard period and refueling in the mid 90's. It is a great ship with tons of history. The west coast Navy intended to scrap her before the decision was made to overhaul. I would think this would be the perfect time to make a bid on her while California is in such a lurch.
May 24, 2009 at 12:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Rocks66 (anonymous) says...
You've got to be kidding. Both the ships in question have RESUME's. They actually saw action in which Americans were killed. Laffey's stand against an onslaught of Japanese kamikazes, for instance, is one of the most heroic naval stories of WWII. Bringing in a substitute that never saw combat is hardly the attraction your average tourist comes here to see. By the way, the USS North Carolina seems to do quite well in terms of visitors and revenues. What do the folks up there know that isn't being employed here?
If you really want to find out what's wrong with this picture, look at the advertising. Billboards with comic-book depictions of fighting men? That graphic technique fell out of vogue in the ad industry ten years ago.
During WWII, there was a famous poster (and slogan) which cautioned that "Loose Lips Sink Ships." So does outdated marketing.
May 24, 2009 at 1:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eatmorecollards (anonymous) says...
Lets learn from lessons already taught. We can't maintain something as large as warships and make any kind of a profit. Probably can't even be self supporting. I served several years on a brand new warship. Practically every one of the hundreds on board had some type of maintenance to perform. Chipping and painting was a never ending task. Once an area was finished we just started the same area all over again. Thats how steel has to be preserved in a electrolysis prone environment.
Let out bids to dismantle in place and salvage the ones there now, maybe make something off the steel or at least pay for the cost of the removal.
Put a first class naval museum there to house artifacts from all eras. Maybe even put the Hunley there. Something should be there that will be self supporting and profitable. Something people will travel to see. Something we can all be proud of.
May 24, 2009 at 1:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wythe124 (anonymous) says...
You cannot put a price on history and the stories it teaches all generations. As a teacher I have witnessed first hand that one of the best ways to bring history alive for children is to bring history to them and that is exactly what Patriots Point does.
The Yorktown and her sister ships are an aging fleet that represents a time and place in history that must be maintained. These ships are veterans of a time in history that we must keep alive. Just as we help to preserve the stories of our Veteran Soldiers we must also work to preserve the means by which many of these stories where brought life.
May 24, 2009 at 2:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
smp (anonymous) says...
I work downtown and get questions about the ship all the time. People are intriqued when they see it. They want to know about it. The attraction of the ship is that it is old...and rare. A ship of this era is what people want to see...not just any ship.
Why didn't we just leave the hunley under the ocean if any old sub would do? Just my two cents.
May 24, 2009 at 2:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aa4pc (anonymous) says...
Are you out of your freaking mind?
The Yorktown is THE ship at Patriot's Point, to sink it would subtract a major skyline attraction, I don't care if you put another ship there, it won't be the Yorktown.
Dare I say the Authority COULD entertain the notion that VOLUNTEERS CAN do a great deal of the work. I Give you an example, USS Pampanito (SS-383) is a World War II Balao class Fleet submarine. It is moored in San Francisco, and was lovingly restored by people who's battle cry was DBF! (Diesel Boats Forever). To read about it: http://www.maritime.org/pamphome.htm
I would be most happy to be the first volunteer to sign up and drive the 125 miles from my home to the Yorktown to work. A lot of people who can paint and use a chipping hammer could very well save the lion's share of the money involved.
I also think the estimate is rather high. I'd love to see a detailed list of what the needs of the ships are. A ship that is moored needs a little less maintenance than if you were keeping it seaworthy, for goodness sake, you don't have to overhaul the engines or the drive train.
DBF!
John Mood
Charlestonian living in
Lexington, SC
May 24, 2009 at 2:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jdargonaut (anonymous) says...
NBF!!!
aa4pc, you need to understand that there are people who talk the talk but can't walk the walk. I would gladly volunteer and help out, but that is also ingrained in me. Too many people today want what is "owed" them.
This is history, there should be no price put on it. Rocks66 said it best when he was talking about REAL advertising!
Screw the idea of replacing these ships, there is no honor in that at all.
I agree with many people saying, that Burger needs to become an actual reporter, not a sensationalist. He first needs to get a clue and learn some respect.
Put the money into the current fleet.
My .02 worth.
JDA
May 24, 2009 at 3:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CNSYD (anonymous) says...
U guys! Can't u see that Burger accomplished his objective? He got u to read his column and get stirred up. Ignore him and he will go away.
May 24, 2009 at 3:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JohnS (anonymous) says...
Maybe another US National Slavery musuem and park could be built on the site. The one in Fredricksburg is a big attraction.
May 24, 2009 at 3:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
redfisher8 (anonymous) says...
Ken Burger, how are you still on the P&C staff?... I mean really. I don't even necessarily disagree with everything you've said in this article, but could you have picked a worse time? I don't think you could. How about next time you write your column, you don't write about "Sinking the Yorktown" on Memorial Day weekend. Who knows, maybe we'll get lucky and won't have to see your articles at all anymore...probably not, just wishful thinking I suppose.
May 24, 2009 at 4:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CNSYD (anonymous) says...
In order to see how former US Navy nuclear powered ships and submarines have their reactor compartments disposed of, see this link. http://navsource.org/archives/08/100/...
May 24, 2009 at 4:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sardis12 (anonymous) says...
Maybe we could get Glenn McConnell interested in WWII instead of the Civil War. Then he could find a way to use taxpayer money to fund a new museum for the Yorktown that will never pay for itself in a part of town nobody goes to, like he did with the Hunley.
May 24, 2009 at 4:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
realamerican (anonymous) says...
postman01, congratulations on graduating from kindergarten.
Now if only you had gone back for the other 18 years of school you might have made an intelligent comment.
May 24, 2009 at 4:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eatmorecollards (anonymous) says...
I don't know what the outcome will be or was. I recently read that North Carolina was negotiating to acquire the USS Kitty Hawk. They want to put it alongside the Battle Ship North Carolina at Wilmington. Just about a 100 miles away.
Wilmington has been in the business since 1961. Do they know something we don't, about preserving ships. Anyways I don't know who will come to Charleston to see our stuff when they can go to Wilmington and see a battleship and a aircraft carrier, if their plans mature.
May 24, 2009 at 5:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
GG (anonymous) says...
I am just wondering if any of these older ships have been drydocked and their steel been recycled. Does anyone know?
It seems a green thing to do. Less iron ore and coal/coke mined from our earth. For awhile anyway. I understand they took steel from the twin towers and used some of it to build a new ship.
May 24, 2009 at 6:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rahard (anonymous) says...
Sadly, perhaps Mr.Burger is right. Time changes things. Things change over time. Look at Hampton Park, a Union cemetery on the grounds of an Old Southern race track used by southern slaveowners. This history unknown to many South Carolinians until recently. Now plans are afoot to preserve Hampton park with a Monument to those slaves who unknowingly launched what we know today as Memorial Day.
What about Patriot's point. Clearly there will be no money forthcoming to perform the necessary work to maintain the ships resting there. That era is over. Most of those who fought in WW II are gone. It's over. Time changes everything. Let us move on. The younger generation can learn about it on the Internet. Their will be greiving and gnashing of teeth for sure, but we need to move ahead and let the past be the past.
Mr. Burger has presented a tenable solution. Let the ships go. Let them go to their eternal rest.
May 24, 2009 at 6:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CNSYD (anonymous) says...
rahard, I suggest you go to the UK and suggest that they sink HMS Victory. British school children can read about Nelson's victory on the internet. See how that idea is received. If you pull that off, then come back to the US and propose we plow up the national cemeteries. As you said, "let the past be the past".
May 24, 2009 at 6:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjs2005 (anonymous) says...
Yes, sink 'em all. Close Charleston AFB, and Naval Weapons Station Charleston. Remove all military presence from Charleston. It's obvious that no one who makes a decision in the area gives a damn about the armed forces anymore, or the sacrifices that the thousands of sailors who served onboard YORKTOWN, LAFFEY, and CLAMAGORE endured. Hell, with all the land that will come available by closing Patriot's Point, CAFB and NWS, the powers that be could build: 1. Another condominium 2. Another Tanger Outlet Mall 3. More overpriced poor replicas of Charleston homes.
I'm glad I moved. I would be ashamed to call Charleston my home anymore. Ken Burger, stick to what you can barely do: sports. You absolutely are awful at commentary.
May 24, 2009 at 9:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mjcline403 (anonymous) says...
before considering a replacment for the uss ships at patroits point, would not a enclosure be built to surrond the ships where the water could be pumped out to repair any damage caused by these ships sitting in the water, the ships could be sat on blocks just like a dry dock. it would help keep the price down
May 24, 2009 at 9:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nappyd (anonymous) says...
Good God, why not implode Fort Sumter while you're at it?
These ships are part of America's history, not just for the Navy, but for Americans and their families.
Unfortunately right now might not be the best economic time for thinking of it and it might not even be plausible due to the logistics involved, but could a ship the size of the Yorktown somehow be sold & sent to a landlocked state to be a tourist attraction?
Even if it's somehow "dry-docked" or in a dug-in space, it would be easier & cheaper to maintain over the years, not to mention giving people a chance to see a ship of that size who otherwise would never get to.
May 24, 2009 at 10:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TRODI (anonymous) says...
How about taking some stimulus money buying steel from nucor and training some jobless folks on how and paying them to fix her.create some jobs and training people some skills.helping the economy.i may have to run my kids by there soon before its gone.
May 24, 2009 at 11:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrefighter273 (anonymous) says...
I was a kid when we got the Yorktown, but now it is a part of the skyline we take for granted, loke the old bridges we replaced I guess what I am saying is we are taking these very important part of our history for granted. I take my kids and they love it but,a lot of things need to change, the advertising is like South of the Border, it is annoying, maybe we cfan get a campagin like save the light. The Yorktown is the most secure of all the ships for now, look at Texas, Alabama and North Carolina very sucessfull, and I have seen all 3. Most of our WWII vets are gone, soon we will have no more,these brave men and women need to have their efforts preserved to honor what they did to save our nation and way of life.
May 24, 2009 at 11:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
malthus (anonymous) says...
First off, there are plenty of inmates who could be put to work as chippers, sanders and painters at 3841 Leeds Avenue. For those of you who don't know the address its the big building with razor wire just off of 526. Instead of paying for them to sit and play cards or watch cable television they could be put to work and pay back their debt to society. Second, I am amazed at the number of intelligent posters who came up with a cost effective solution that is obviously too complex for the individual who cobbled this story together to justify his obviously overpaid position. The cost to prepare even one of those fine ships for a proper burial at sea as an artificial reef would be much more than intelligently maintaining the ships at Patriots point. For those who do not realize it there are numerous federal regulations for purposely sinking ships. The Yorktown would have to be stripped of any materials that could pollute the ocean and the cleaning process is extraordinarily thorough and very expensive. With all the dredging the harbor needs there would be minimal extra costs for back filling around the ships after a modest seawall was erected. Just imagine the appeal of taking field trips there and having picnic areas in the shade between ships. There would be whole new areas of revenue to exploit and using inmate workers for menial jobs would offset the cost of many maintenance concerns. On a personal note the author obviously has no respect for those who died to give him the chance to pump out this drivel. If this excuse for an article is the best you could come up with, I am sure there are many here in Charleston who would be happy to help pack you up and send you to Pakistan or Afghanistan, see how your stories play to the audience there.
May 25, 2009 at 3:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CompostandWourier (anonymous) says...
Shame on you Burger! You dishonor every Veteran by writing this story now. You couldn't wait another week? Did it not occur to you that some may take offense to the timing? I hope you put a lot more thought into future articles as you obviously didn't put any into this one!
May 25, 2009 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CedarPosts (anonymous) says...
I'm not sure the Yorktown has been as great an attraction as many had hoped.
Somewhere I saw projections from a round of state funding years ago with a proforma that offered numbers that are no where near what they have obtained.
On the other hand the Yorktown always prompted questions from my son when he was younger and that was fun.
http://cedarposts.blogspot.com
May 25, 2009 at 8:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
southerntraveler (anonymous) says...
I AM OUTRAGED that you or anyone else would suggest such an unpatriotic and almost treasonous act. You obviously have no idea the sacrifice that was made at places like Pearl Harbor, Midway, the Battles of D-Day, the Battle of the Bulge, and the suffering of those soldiers and sailors in prisoner of war camps throughout World War II.
The Yorktown is not about how much tourism money this magnificicent ship brings in or the pricetag people might be concerned with restoring it for longterm preservation.
It stands as a unique American symbol to all of the men and women who served defending the United States of America so that we, including you, can enjoy the liberties that we have yesterday, today, and tomorrow.
You made a very poor decision writing this article, and I hope your computer is taken away from you for suggesting such a terrible idea.
Excellent comment of getting prisoners out to clean it, preserve it, and maintain it. In addition, there is enough money wasted throughout this country that could be put toward preservation efforts.
God Bless America and the PRESERVE THE YORKTOWN!!
Thank you to all those who wear the uniform of the American soldier.
May 25, 2009 at 9:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
octopusmotor (anonymous) says...
Nothing about Mr. Burger's proposal would be as simple as it seems. As with Laffey, Yorktown would probably not be certified for taking out to sea (even for a burial) without the same repairs being made to her hull that will be required to keep her around as a museum. You would also have to go about the process of de-listing Yorktown as a National Historic Landmark. (I imagine the United States Navy, which retains the ability to repossess a donated ship under certain circumstances, would want some input, too.)
Okay, so you've ditched Yorktown. What about a new museum ship? Not without hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars worth of surveys and studies required by the Navy and federal/state/local government. (The ones done in the 1970s for Yorktown's donation won't suffice.) If you're going after a nuclear-powered warship, your hassles multiply; even if the Navy *will* let you possess a decommissioned naval reactor (and don't hold your breath; they'll probably insist the reactors be removed, which is a long, complicated and expensive process), you will then have to acquire the appropriate Nuclear Regulatory Commission licenses, go through costly and bothersome reactor inspections each year, and other seriously complicated steps. (This was part of the hassle with NS Savannah; though her nuclear fuels were removed, Patriots Point still had to submit to regular inspections of the reactor spaces and go through NRC licensing procedures.)
Even if you survive all that and "trade in" Yorktown -- and assuming the Navy's past experiences with Patriots Point won't sour Naval Sea Systems Command on the idea -- what have you done? You've traded in a 900-foot maintenance nightmare for an 1100-foot maintenance nightmare that, in 25 years, will probably be in the same condition Yorktown is now in. And you've ended up spending about the same amount of money that would be required to bring Yorktown back up to some sort of acceptable condition.
It's easy to keep a ship in great condition when you have 3,000 people on board whose job is to run the ship and do all the work. Keep the ship permanently moored and rely on a small workforce and a lot of volunteer work (and no matter how you try, there will never enough volunteers to do all the work you need), and the ship's going to deteriorate.
Most of all, without strong, effective leadership and a clear marketing and business plan, it doesn't matter if you have a tugboat or an aircraft carrier; the whole thing's going to go downhill. I have watched Patriots Point deteriorate for a long time, and have wondered where the strong, effective leadership and innovative, informed marketing have been. I have believed for many years, and I believe today, that absolutely nothing will change for the better there until there's a good housecleaning in the leadership department.
May 25, 2009 at 10:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Numba10 (anonymous) says...
alas---WW2 vets dropping at a rate of 1800 a day---and now the best he can come up with is to sink one of the most renowed ships of WW2-----Certainly the people of this great nation would not allow this to happen
May 25, 2009 at 11:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
post166sc (anonymous) says...
Looks like this is the subverse plot to come up with that cruise ship site. why build another one when there is one already there? hmmmm
Leaking compartments can be controlled with air pressure and suitable types of underwater cements that will harden. We used it in the real navy for repairs for years, why not now?
Better yet, as many millions of dollars that Detyens and the other private shipyards made off the Navy, why should we even have to pay for drydocking? We gave them the drydocks in the old Navy shipyard, they havent paid a penny have they?
The Laffey is only leaking in a few select areas, it could easily be controlled and nosed into a permanent berth on the 'hill', saving it as a treasure and in a oil proof berm just like the city dump. Although the Yorkdown would be a much bigger task, it also would only be leaking in select areas and should be addressed before it goes too far. There are options... plastic wraps suitable to coat the hull in, new technology coatings that can be applied underwater, lots of things...as some naval architects. The money they are talking is for conventional drydocking and shipyard overhaul with standards..hell, they are no longer naval ships,, they need to be repaired to float, not fight. There are ways. Think outside the box people!
May 25, 2009 at 3:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vuduchld (anonymous) says...
In reading these comments one huge point was missed. It is not so much the expense of keeping these ships afloat in so much that PP itself is rapidly becoming a non tourist venue. People coming to PP has fallen off over the past several years. Heck, I come home and don't even think of going there! It's time to put these ships to rest. While earlier war ships were made from wood, these ships are made of metal, which can harm the environment; the paint on those ships are especially toxic.
This is not about patriotism of lack thereof, this is about the economic viability of an area is beginning to show it's age. I remember when PP was first proposed. I was a Freshman at Wando High School! It is time to come up with a sensible proposal to lay these ships to rest, they at least deserve that!!
May 25, 2009 at 3:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
THESGTMAJOR (anonymous) says...
The one thing that makes this country great, is that we are able to express our opinion. That right was in part was provided by the veterans of this country. I know first hand about defending those rights and freedoms. I strongly urge Burger to stick to what he thinks he knows best. SPORTS.
May 25, 2009 at 9:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TLG87 (anonymous) says...
I visited the Yorktown and other ships two weekends ago for the first time. It saddens me to hear they want to do away with these wonderful markers of history. Unfortunately, I did not get to go aboard the Laffey, as it was undergoing maintenance.
Why dont they take them out of the water and have them on land? Then we'd be able to keep these pieces of history for many more years.
May 26, 2009 at 10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Nonsense (anonymous) says...
I wish I could see my Dad's ship - but he was in the PT Squadrons during World War II and his boat was blown apart in the south Pacific by the Japanese. He survived and is 95 years old - so there are still some WWII veterans out there - alive and kicking!!!!
May 26, 2009 at 10:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ironclad (anonymous) says...
Vacationed here for years, now a resident. Read all of the marketing (what there was) and went to the Yorktown on Saturday. What terrible marketing!!! I have been a naval history buff for years I spent 5 hours on the exhibits and was NOT able to complete but 3 of th 6 tours!! There must be over 20 rooms of ship models, equipment, uniforms, all honoring the different carriers, battleships, cruisers and destroyers. Incredible and well-researched history, my wife (who is NOT in to history) read EVERYTHING she could see in each room. The travesty here is not that the Yorktown is not being taken care of it is that there are no creative and positive marketing that reflects the wealth of collections and displays. The Medal of Honor museum is comparable to any you would see in Washington DC and better than most of them. It makes one wonder if the marketing people for the Patriots Point really know what they have a hold of. I took a random survey today at work (a business that has a considerable number of Navy veterans) and asked if they had ever been to the Yorktown, the typical response, "if you have been in one ship you have seen them all." When I explained the other displays, they, too were upset at the lack of communication of really telling how great this Yorktown exhibit and museum is. Oh, one other secret there is a nice display on the Doolittle raid with a B-25 Mitchell that would have been nice to coordinate with the recent event in Columbia. Nuff said! Bottom line, maybe we should get some real historians on the Board and not only make this a 1900s museum, but since my specialty is ships,ironclads and harbor mines from the Revolutionary and Civil Wars maybe we can make this place bigger and better by diversifying and keep the money coming that could support it all.....assuming of course, that it is communicated and marketed to the community that supports it as to what TRUELY is there!!
May 26, 2009 at 3:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JDHopkins (anonymous) says...
A worthy addition to Patriot's Point would be the retired ocean liner S.S. United States. The vessel is available for sale for only $5 million and could be converted to a combination hotel, convention center, and maritime museum. This would add a significant attraction to PP. Cabins on the water side would have the best views of the city of any other hotel rooms in the area. While staying in the hotel S.S. United States, people would be very likely to visit the other ships. Adding such a significant new attraction is, I think, a better idea than disposing of the Yorktown.
May 26, 2009 at 9:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
The recent renovation of the Intrepid Aircraft Carrier berthed in New York cost over 100 million dollars.
May 27, 2009 at 10:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
clasbyfx (anonymous) says...
If you want to honor history, lets do something positive. Melt it down and make train tracks for a trolley to Summerville, and beyond. The 'Best Friend of Charleston' was the first Passenger train in America, we need to have a 'win-win', this is it!
May 27, 2009 at 11:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
combahee (anonymous) says...
We sall not forget our history and the sacrifices of the men and women who risked their lives for our freedoms, they are to be respected and their memories kept alive generation after generation.
Mr. Burger is wrong, just plain wrong. These ships and others like them are visible reminders of the sacrifices made.
To tow them out to sea and sink them would be the same as kicking over the gravestone of your father or mother in the cemetery. Should we tear down the Washington Monument? Or the Lincoln Memorial? How about new condos in White Point Gardens?
Bring in new ships? Ken do you have an inkling why these ships are even here? What they stand for? It isn't about some display of old military ships. It is the history these ships experienced, and the men that fought on them.
Patriots Point has had a lot of problems in the past. Maybe it is time for new people to run it, maybe not, I really don't know.
But at a time when the City of Charleston is talking about raising 150 million plus for renovations at the Gilliard yet less than a third that would be needed to repair these ships is a slap in the face for the entire population. Our collective priorities are skewered.
The Yorktown is not only the historic ship she is, she is a money generating feature for all of the Lowcountry, a major tourist attraction. Every effort should be undertaken to save and PROPERLY preserve these ships.
It's funny what happens when one places history against the all mighty dollar, usually the history loses, we have seen this time and again, and what do we get? The same old big box urban sprawl.
Even today there is a fight against locating another Wal-Mart in the very shadows of the Wilderness battlefield.
When will we wake up?
Ken, go back to writing about catching some crappie and shooting ducks.
May 27, 2009 at 12:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
boucka (anonymous) says...
I understand that it's going to cost a fortune to rehab the ships; and it's going to cost just about as much to get the ships up to snuff so they can be floated and towed out to sea and sunk. MOREOVER, I understand the ships' sinking is imminent.
WE NEED TO ASK WHY PATRIOT'S POINT DIDN'T HAVE, SAY 10 YEARS AGO, A PLAN TO FINANCE EITHER THE SHIPS' MAINTAINENCE OR THEIR SINKING??? Why are we learning of this emergent situation now? Shouldn't this have been anticipated long ago? Why was there no plan in place?
Sounds like we may have a few ships on their side, sunk, right where they are now in the very near future.
I have all the respect in the world for our WWII and other vets. My dad is one. Vets understand that the world is made of limited resources. We just can't afford this, and certainly can't afford it now.
Sell Patriot's Point and it's real estate to finance a way to take these ships out to sea to be sunk. The Medal of Honor Museum will surely continue, hopefully locally somewhere. The collections will also find a home. But this is Patriot's Point's mess, not the taxpayer's. Patriot's Point has to put all of it's assets toward this problem. It cannot allow its ships to foul our waters. Let them pay to clean it up. If it bankrupts the Authority, so be it.
May 27, 2009 at 11:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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