Religion causes a ruckus
Supporters, opponents of resolutions square off
SUMMERVILLE — Nearly 100 people fought a holy war in the Dorchester County Council chambers Monday night. It was fought to a standstill.
A few dozen residents planned to stage a protest of two recent faith-based council resolutions but found themselves opposed by dozens who supported the measures. When Jamie Feltner, the council's chairman, asked for a show of hands on each side, twice as many were supporters.
More info
See the agendas and minutes from previous Dorchester County Council meetings, Dorchester County web site
The protests followed two April council votes. One supported a bill in the General Assembly that would force higher education institutions to continue to offer religious programs, even though federal stimulus money won't pay for them. The other supported a dormant congressional bill that would establish a Religious History Week, which the resolution characterized as American as a Christian Nation week.
Protesters said religion wasn't the business of the council; supporters said it was about time somebody stood up for Christian values. One came on crutches; one came wearing a yarmulke.
The crowd greeted comments by 19 people with loud applause or murmurs of derision.
The county has needs such as sidewalks for schoolchildren and more classroom space, said protester Nancy Seufert. "You men disappoint me."
The resolutions "were bold and courageous," Ronald McGuire said. "It's about time somebody stood up."
Larry Hargett, the council member who introduced the legislative bill resolution, defended it as needed to preserve a recognition of faith in public discourse.
"I'm not sorry I wrote it and I won't rescind it," he said.
Willie Davis, the lone council member who voted against the resolutions, continued to oppose the resolutions, saying they sounded like political posturing.
"All men are created equal," he said. "I don't have the right to sit on anybody else."
The large crowd packed the usually wide-open Summerville council chambers.
"We always love a large crowd," Feltner said with a wry smile before asking speakers to keep it brief and not repeat each other.
In other business:
• A council committee revised a controversial proposed leaf burning ordinance to read that leaves and yard debris cannot be burned within 50 feet of a structure or property line, as well as on properties one-third of an acre or smaller. But the council left the proposal in committee to hear safety concerns from fire chiefs before approving its final language.
• The council heard a request from Dorchester School District 2 board members to sit in on board budget discussions at a meeting Thursday. Funding for schools long has been a sore spot in the county, and schools have seen cuts with the recent economic downturn.
Feltner, who has tried to put together a working group of government and schools officials, told board members he would be there. "I think it's a long time coming," he said.
Reach Bo Petersen at 937-5744 or bpetersen@postandcourier.com.
E-mail this story
Printer-friendly version
Comments
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Why is this Nancy Seufert always involved in any event in Dorchester County in which religion is involved? I didn't even have to go past the headline to know that her name would be mentioned.
She tried to get the ELECTIVE (important term here!) Bible history course at FDHS shut down, even though no kid there is ever forced to take it.
Yes, I also agree with her that the county needs more sidewalks and room for schoolchildren, but why does she always harp on religion? I'm really curious to know what the impetus is behind her one-woman "war on Christianity" in Dorchester County.
May 5, 2009 at 12:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bflosue (anonymous) says...
I applaud Nancy for standing up for the First Amendment, which protects all of us from government sponsored religion. These council members need a history lesson then they need to be voted out of office.
May 5, 2009 at 2:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LarryCarterCenter (anonymous) says...
Nancy Seufert is a good Christian mom who also reads the US Constitution. Preachers who try to force taxpayers to pay for their religious indoctrinations on school property and government venues are dirty little traitors to the US Constitution. All of us veterans who declared upon enlistment that we would preserve, protect and the defend the Constitution from all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC know who "they" are. The religiously obsessed who want to gain political points & cheap pandering to votes for the "popular" praying to the US Flag or bible courses paid for by taxpayers pretending that "if it's an elective, it's legal???$$$$
Religion is a private matter, period. Beware when anyone trots out some religious issue in council chambers or school board policy discussions. Nancy is a role model of citizenship. Get a clue Summerville. Call me at 926-1750 if you need help reading our highest law, the Constitution.
May 5, 2009 at 2:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MC29461 (anonymous) says...
Dear LarryCarterCenter,
Why are you promoting Nancy Seufert as a "good Christian mom" when you are a well known atheist always criticizing Christianity?
Also you seem to have left off "Reds" in your favorite movie list on your website:
http://americanatheist.gaia.com/
May 5, 2009 at 3:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen (anonymous) says...
Hate to educate most in here, but the County Council provides a budget for the Dorchester School System. When the kids eat lunch at 10:30, the schools in disrepair, and Jaime Feltner always stating he is working to make it better, I think it is entirely appropriate to bring up the status of the school.
As a Christian, I am glad the councilmen believe, but I wonder what the true motivation of passing a resolution that holds no value of law? Could it be pandering? That makes me wonder are these men really Christians or just our new gubernatorial candidates?
May 5, 2009 at 5:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
realamerican (anonymous) says...
Council is trying to distract people. That is how it is done in South Carolina. The politicians sneak stuff past their constituents while they are busy defending God from the heathens.
I guess this is how the religious nuts "prove" to God how uber religious they are. If these religious nuts were to ever gain control of government they would quickly become just like the Taliban and would force their views on others. Heck, they already are!
Please Lord, protect me from your followers!
May 5, 2009 at 6 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
spengler (anonymous) says...
This Republic was founded on Judeo-Christian values. Get over it. Nobody makes anyone go to synagogue or church every week. If the idea of God-centered values turns you off, either don't listen or leave and go to Cuba. People of faith have had it with the minority telling us what to do. Read the Founders. They intended no STATE religion, as the English have. They did NOT mean there should be no faith expressed at all. We surround you.
May 5, 2009 at 6:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
moonpie (anonymous) says...
This has nothing to do with seperation of church and state. No specific religion is being forced on anyone. This is what the founders meant when they "seperated church and state". They just left Endgland where a religion was forced on them. When our founders set up the seperation of church and state they didn't exclude God from their schools, courts or lives. WE ARE A COUNTRY BUILT ON CHRISTIAN VALUES like it or not. Our very laws are christian based.
Yeah RA I remember the days when we prayed before school and used to think then that the "Taliban" would rule here one day! Funny how "heathen nuts" always compare christians to the taliban, muslims or other fanatics.
Christian faith is none of the above.
May 5, 2009 at 6:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
realamerican (anonymous) says...
Spengler, surely you are not claiming to be a christian are you? Judging by some of your hate filled and racist posts I find it laughable that you would even attempt to hold yourself up as a virtuous person. Your words speak for you.
I suppose it was Glen Beck who told you our country was founded on "Judeo-Christian values". Sorry to inform you but he is wrong.
You are right about one thing though as far as South Carolina is concerned. You fake christians do surround the people who can think for themselves. We are surrounded by uneducated superstitious idiots! No wonder this state is the laughing stock of the nation.
May 5, 2009 at 6:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
counterpoint (anonymous) says...
Please please please start getting rid of each other so I don't have to waste my time listening to all of your rants.
May 5, 2009 at 6:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen (anonymous) says...
Founding Fathers Quotes
Thomas Paine: "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of...Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."
George Washington, the first president of the United States, never declared himself a Christian according to contemporary reports or in any of his voluminous correspondence. Washington Championed the cause of freedom from religious intolerance and compulsion. When John Murray (a universalist who denied the existence of hell) was invited to become an army chaplain, the other chaplains petitioned Washington for his dismissal. Instead, Washington gave him the appointment. On his deathbed, Washinton uttered no words of a religious nature and did not call for a clergyman to be in attendance.
John Adams: "This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it!"
Thomas Jefferson said:"I trust that there is not a young man now living in the United States who will not die a Unitarian." .
James Madison,"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
Benjamin Franklin: "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion...has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present dissenters in England, some doubts as to his Divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the Truth with less trouble."
May 5, 2009 at 7 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
LarryCC, misguided Christians are now domestic enemies, heh. Actually, our government is closer to that stand than anything that the Christians may set up. Look around yourselves, folks, you have nothing to fear from the Christians or their values. You are winning. Look at the state of families, the materialistic culture, the lack of respect for authority by the young people, infanticide, the sequential generations of state maintained poor, the neglect of the elderly in America. The more you push out the Moral Compass, then the more you win...every person wise as they see fit in their own eyes. Chill, you have nothing to fear in this world. You're close to having it all.
May 5, 2009 at 7:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
LarryCarterCenter, perhaps you missed the point of the Bible history class at FDHS.
It's not a "religious recruiting tool," or a way to inject "Sunday school" into the public schools, thus mixing up church and state. It is a survey course in history and literary styles, using the Bible (and the Torah, if I'm not mistaken) as an example. The Bible is rife with classical poetry and prose, as well as archaeologically-documented historical facts.
Many colleges--also state-sponsored schools--offer such courses as English departmental electives.
May 5, 2009 at 7:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
realamerican (anonymous) says...
Uh moonpie, christianity and islam are exactly the same.
They are both religions. They both have posturing zealots who try to impose their will on others. Millions have died in the name of both of them.
Trying to pass laws that clearly violate our constitution favoring one religion over another is definitely fanatical.
True christians and muslims do not feel the need to display their religious "righteousness" to others.
May 5, 2009 at 7:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
How many here want to ponder whether ConcernedDorchesterCitizen is actually Nancy Seufert herself? ;-)
May 5, 2009 at 7:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
beefsaver (anonymous) says...
"America as a Christian Nation" week is the theme of one of the motions before the council. This governmental body, with sway over the taxes of citizens, the education of their children, and condition of their town is establishing Christianity as the religion of America. What flavor of Christianity, pray tell?
If Americans need the government to tell us that we're Christian, because one cannot tell by our acts of charity, community, and outreach, then we've failed as Christian men and women. The council is out of line, and the tyranny of the majority is irrelevant. Many just causes were opposed by the majority of "good Christians" at the time.
May 5, 2009 at 7:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen (anonymous) says...
Two_Sheds,
You are absolutely correct, many colleges gives Religion Classes. They give a history on all religions: Jewish, Chritianity, Muslim, Wiccian, etc... which causes a lot of people to become atheist. Very bad example on your part.
I hope you are rationale, but the argument that many Christians make is that we want our elected officials to work on the items we pay them to work on - roads, schools, crimes, etc.... not to concentrate on our religious beliefs. We want them to work on the items we pay them for. I tithe at church so my pastor will guide my soul - I pay my taxes so that my councilman will work on the issues of Dorchester County.
Let me ask you a question: if the council would have stated we are an athiest community, would you not be up in arms? I know I would have protested them.
They are doing nothing but pandering to the majority. Being part of that majority, I am offended. This poem says it best:
When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
Then they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
Then they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me.
May 5, 2009 at 7:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
realamerican (anonymous) says...
This is a good take on the subject of the separation of church and state.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16R4ae...
May 5, 2009 at 7:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen (anonymous) says...
No, I am not her; however, I tend to agree with what I read. I could ask if your Hitler, but I am sure you will deny it.
May 5, 2009 at 7:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
ConcernedDC: "very bad example on my part," eh? Well, my kids can also take an "African American History" class at FDHS, but I'm not in fear that it will turn them into African Americans.
It's a historical/literary/theoretical/philosophical course, plain and simple. There is nothing wrong with knowing about other cultures--it makes for better-informed citizens.
May 5, 2009 at 7:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColdBud (anonymous) says...
Religion... the scorn of the Earth. Deadlier than cigarettes, obesity, cancer and all other afflictions combined. "Believe as I do or be banished!" Great stuff for weak minds.
It's funny in a Reno 911 sort of way... so stupid it makes you laugh.
May 5, 2009 at 7:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
And another point:
The Council can proclaim anything they want: that we are an atheist community, that the end of the world is nigh, or that the color blue is actually green. That doesn't mean that I have to actually believe what they say. People can have different opinions in this country, and we don't always have to agree with them.
May 5, 2009 at 7:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen (anonymous) says...
While I agree, children and adults (especially most of the people who comment) need to have religious history, I want my school to concentrate on teaching my children the basics. I send my children to sunday school, bible camp, etc. for them to learn from experts about God, Jesus, and the good news that they are saved if they choose to accept his salvation.
I don't feel that the public school system is or should be able to teach religion. That again is mine and my pastor's job.
As to your remark regarding African American History, I would have the same reaction if a member of the Klu Klux Klan taught it.
The first amendment was put in place to protect not destroy religious freedoms. To get mixed up in a debate about this being or not being a Christian nation distracts us to exactly what are elected officials are not doing. Becareful, your ignorance is showing.
Remember the song, Money for Nothing.... well that is what the Dorchester County Council is banking on.
May 5, 2009 at 7:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
realAmerican, your posts are spot on brother. Moonie and Spengler aren't going to entertain the thoughts of Christianity having zealots. They are looking for commies and nazis under the beds and in the closets.
Theonce all those plaques on man were there and chuggin' along nicely before now and they'll be there long after we are gone. Church has nothing to do with it. It's just another bogeyman to throw out at the "non-believers" because you are better than them. LMAO.
I'm glad we are about to turn into Nazi's and Red commies, now which one is it? I love it. Clinging to fairy tales and fear. Great stuff.
May 5, 2009 at 7:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
realamerican (anonymous) says...
I should have said humorous take on the separation of church and state.
Smak dem christians down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16R4ae...
TwoSheds, I don't know who you think you are fooling?
Learning about African American history is not even remotely similar to teaching a certain religion in public schools.
I'll tell you what. Let's give a course in islamic studies for a year to test your theory on teaching religion in schools. If this required course for all students is favorably looked on at the end of the year then it might be worth considering a course in "christianity". We can start with a year long course on catholicism and then protestant and down the line.
May 5, 2009 at 7:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
CDC,
You want the schools to teach nothing but the basics; I assume, then, that you are against classes other than the core curriculum. In that respect, I suppose we should get rid of photography, art, forensics, foreign languages, driver's education, and any other electives that aren't considered a part of "the three Rs." How very limiting.
Before you make any further claims that "my ignorance is showing," you may want to proof-read your own posts for spelling and grammatical errors ("...I could ask if your Hitler..."
That being said, I will not discuss this further with you. It appears that we will just have to "agree to disagree" on this topic--it happens. Have a wonderful day.
May 5, 2009 at 7:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LiveYourBestLife (anonymous) says...
While I have mixed feelings on the issue at hand, I would like to voice my opinion related to it.
Our current education system is what too many people turn to to teach their children. This education system should not be the only teacher to our children. They need to get an education at home. The home is where the education begins.
Adding a religious program to our schools will not solve the world's problems unless those religious values at taught at home and strengthened by each child's parents.
Having religion in schools will not save the world, but providing a balance between the teaching of evolution and intelligent design needs to be a balanced view. When the facts and evidence are brought into the public light, common sense (for the majority) will see choice to make.
(In case you are wondering, intelligent design wins)
Just my thoughts...
May 5, 2009 at 7:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Realamerican, as I've stated before: the Bible History class at FDHS is NOT REQUIRED. It is an ELECTIVE. Please look up the definition of this word, if you are not sure what it means.
May 5, 2009 at 7:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
LiveYourBestLife, I couldn't agree with you more on intelligent design! :-)
While I don't necessarily agree with most points of evolution, it makes for a lively debate in science class, when presented alongside other theories. When you give someone both sides of the coin, it enables them to weigh the pros and cons of each theory, so that they are better able to make an informed decision.
May 5, 2009 at 7:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen (anonymous) says...
I guess you all didn't hear, the school took out having the Bible class at Fort Dorchester.
May 5, 2009 at 7:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scienceguy (anonymous) says...
A friend of mine who lives in Dorchester County told me that the religion course at Fort Dorchester HS was discontinued for lack of interest. But, he may be misinformed. Does anyone know the truth about this?
Obviously, Dorchester County Council Members are pandering, just as Tim Scott was pandering when he posted the Ten Commandments in Charleston Council Chambers against advice of counsel. But, after the taxpayers were forced to pay the ACLU $100,000, Scott moved on to the State House. Larry Hargett apparently has similar ambitions.
May 5, 2009 at 7:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
devilsadvocate77 (anonymous) says...
In America, no one is stopped from practicing their religion at their church, temple, mosque, storefront, whatever means suits one best. No one is publicly persecuted for believing in any god and has the right to worship in private. But County Council is elected to take care of tax money, spending, oversee government services, provide new services as needed and generally serve the constituents that pay the taxes. Forcing their religious beliefs down the throats of these same constituents, many who obviously are not the least bit interested, should never be a County Council agenda. That is why people like
Nancy Seufurt show up...to protest the fact that the personal beliefs of elected officials should never enter the public domain.
May 5, 2009 at 7:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
realamerican (anonymous) says...
Sorry to say Twosheds but evolution can be proven.
Intelligent design relies on "faith" as proof.
May 5, 2009 at 7:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Scienceguy: I'm not sure whether it has been discontinued or not. Colleges sometimes cancel classes, due to limited enrollment, so if not enough students were interested, it very well may have been discontinued.
I did look at the syllabus for it, though, and it looked fairly interesting. But then again, being a history buff (and a bibliophile to boot!), that kind of course certainly holds some appreciative appeal for me. :-)
May 5, 2009 at 7:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Realamerican, certain aspects of evolution can certainly be proven: differentiation of species based upon geographical separation, genetic mutations (frameshift, base pair substitution, etc.), survival of the fittest...the list goes on.
But the fact is that no humans were around millions of years ago to factually record whether or not we humans arose from single-celled protozoans. In that respect, that point of evolutionary belief is also based upon faith, as there is no empirical evidence to support it.
May 5, 2009 at 8:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
realamerican (anonymous) says...
Twosheds- How old do you believe the earth to be? Dinosaur fossils predate most biblical accounts of creation according to our best scientific methods.
May 5, 2009 at 8:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Same questions as always, HOW does this violate the First Amendment? How does this ESTABLISH any religion? Will anyone be FORCED into a worship service? Will anyone be penalized for not attending ANYTHING? Will anyone be forced to pledge allegiance to a God? Will anyone be forced to join a church?
In terms of quoting the Founding Fathers, quote them from their own writings, not the writings of 1960's activists who purposely misquoted them or pulled quotes out of context. This was written by George Washington in his prayer journal entitled "My Daily Sacrifice"
"Direct my thoughts, words and work, wash away my sins in the immaculate Blood of the Lamb, and purge my heart by Thy Holy Spirit, daily frame me more and more into the likeness of Thy Son Jesus Christ. Thou gavest Thy Son to die for me; and hast given me assurance of salvation, upon my repentance and sincerely endeavoring to conform my life to His holy precepts and example."
Call me crazy. I think he was a Christian.
May 5, 2009 at 8:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reader (anonymous) says...
Two_Sheds wrote, "Realamerican, as I've stated before: the Bible History class at FDHS is NOT REQUIRED."
The objection is not to having it forced on anyone. The objection is that Joe Average's tax dollars are funding it. And Joe Average does not have a CHOICE on whether his money is paying for the class. It is a REQUIREMENT.
May 5, 2009 at 8:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Reader: I don't like to have my tax dollars spent on welfare queens who spit out children like watermelon seeds, while spending what money they DO have on non-essentials, but it happens. As you said, "It is a REQUIREMENT."
May 5, 2009 at 8:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
patlabb (anonymous) says...
Who are we as a county and as a nation? I summit we are not and never have been a Christian nation but rather a nation comprised of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists and others too numerous to name.
Our democracy was not founded as a "Christian" nation. most of our founders were Deists or Theists and not Christians. The Dorchester County Council has missed the point with their divisive resolution. To the point the resolution is anti-Christian. Christianity teaches tolerance and love for all people. This resolution teaches Christianity uber alles.
Those advocating the resolution quoted "America's Rabbi", Rabbi Lapin is known for his divisive views. As a Jewish person, I emphatically state he is not my Rabbi!
The council members need to read the Constitution of the United States. We are and always will be a pluralistic nation that respects the freedom of religion or freedom from religion of all the people.
The council is little more than a Christian Taliban.
May 5, 2009 at 8:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
patlabb (anonymous) says...
There is seperation of Church and State in Our Constitution in Amendment #1. For Larry "the taliban" Hargett of the Dorchester County Council to say it's a myth is unbelievable! And he's a lawyer???
BELOW:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
We must oppose those who would establish their beliefs as the only ones. That's what the Nazis did in Germany, that's what Iran does and yes, we spilt American blood to rid the world of the Taliban only to have a so called Christian version right here in the low country in the form of Dorchester County Council.
May 5, 2009 at 8:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Realamerican, as I've pointed out, there is simply no reliable, empirical way to prove either theory. Some carbon dating methods have determined the age of the earth to be about 4.2 billion years old, while others are off by more than 2 billion. Since humans were not around to record the actual beginnings of time, we are left to wonder.
Yes, dinosaur fossils predate most Biblical accounts, but the theories are ever-changing. The latest theory claims that the dinosaurs were, in fact, warm-blooded creatures, not the cold-blooded reptiles about which were previously written. However, since nobody was there with a thermometer up their bums to actually check, that, too, is only a theory. ;-)
Bottom line: nobody actually knows. Both theories have scientific grounds, as well as some things that have to simply rely upon faith. But interesting topic, is it not? :-)
May 5, 2009 at 8:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
When anyone here posts that "Our Founders were not Christians" or that "America was not founded on Judeo-Christian principles" you essentially win our case for us. Ever since the 1960's, the liberals have used the public school system to brainwash people against Christianity. They have purposely distorted history to the point where the average American doesn't have a clue when it comes to American History. Need I remind you of the multitude of cases where American History "textbooks" have been analyzed by historians and some have been found to contain as many as 400 or 500 errors in them!! That is outrageous! How can anyone just blow that off? Is it important to teach the truth to kids or not? No one that I know endorses the idea of teaching any religion's doctrines in schools, but this is history. Historical truth SHOULD be taught, whether there is a religious aspect or not. It doesn't force anyone to believe anything.
May 5, 2009 at 8:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
realamerican (anonymous) says...
Twosheds you didn't answer the question. How old do YOU believe the earth to be? Thousands of years? Millions, billions?
May 5, 2009 at 8:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
patlabb, since you brought up the Nazis, let me ask you or anyone else a question. The Nazis believed that religion should only be allowed within the four walls of a church building, but never allowed in public. What is your opinion of that kind of thinking?
May 5, 2009 at 8:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BootstrapRed (anonymous) says...
The Constitution guarantees every citizen freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion.
May 5, 2009 at 8:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen (anonymous) says...
Greyrider,
The jury is still out (so to speak) on Washington, and as such, I should not have included that information on my previous posting. To show just one side of it, as our politicians frequently do, was wrong. It was not intentional, but rather a hurried attempt to explain to some posters that the nation was not founded by Christianity.
It would probably be safer to say on Washington, that he kept his beliefs very private. Also he was in fact deeply suspicious of a European pattern of governmental involvement in religion, and deeply concerned about an involvement in religion because he, as well as our other founding fathers, saw government as corrupting religion.
Again, please note, that I wasn't intentionally trying to give false information.
May 5, 2009 at 8:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
I honestly do not know! :-)
If you go strictly by the genealogical lists in the Bible, it puts the earth at around 8-10,000 years old. But the scientist in me cannot dispute the fact that, though carbon dating methods vary, they do place the age at several million to a few billion years of age.
The carbon isotopes used in dating have very predictable half-lives, so there is definitely some accuracy in this aspect. But then again, a lot rests upon the skills of the scientists doing the tests, and the accuracy and condition of the equipment being used.
There are some books I've read which reconcile the two theories, without polarizing them. In other words, the two theories can be integrated. It's been years since I've read the book...I'd have to dig through my shelf to get a title for you.
May 5, 2009 at 8:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen (anonymous) says...
BootstrapRed a true South Carolinian.
May 5, 2009 at 8:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
You cannot have freedom of speech and freedom of religion without people saying things that offend you. I am offended when people deny the Deity of Jesus, but you'll never hear me say that they shouldn't have the right to speak that in public. If Tom Cruise is ever elected to public office and wants to talk about Scientology in a public speech, he should have that right as an American. If two people have opinions on a political issue and one gets their opinion from something they read in the Bible and another got their opinion from something they read somewhere else or something they thought up on their own, ALL should have the right to express their opinions, NO MATTER what has influenced them. Nowhere in the Consitution does it say that once an American becomes a Christian, they are now banned from politics or that they forfeit their freedom of speech.
May 5, 2009 at 8:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
realamerican (anonymous) says...
I don't know either but tend to believe the billions of years.
I have a hard time taking someone who claims the earth is only thousands of years old as put forth in the bible seriously. The bible, I think we all can agree, is mistaken on this point
May 5, 2009 at 8:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reader (anonymous) says...
Two_Sheds wrote this: "I don't like to have my tax dollars spent on welfare queens who spit out children like watermelon seeds, while spending what money they DO have on non-essentials, but it happens. As you said, "It is a REQUIREMENT."
Neither do I. And, if spending tax dollars on welfare programs or non-essentials violated the First Amendment, I'd be right there with you on this argument. But, secular spending, no matter how unwise, is not a constitutional issue. A Bible course is.
May 5, 2009 at 8:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Greyrider, you have my vote! As you said, nowhere in any public, historical document in this country does it say that, as an American, you shall possess the right to never be offended.
May 5, 2009 at 8:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen (anonymous) says...
Greyrider,
I think there is a difference in getting inspiration from the Bible to outright pandering. If a politician is inspired from the words of our Lord, and does the work of our Lord, then I for one am very happy. I think as much as we disagree - we can agree on that.
For at least myself, I am offended when a politician speaks about God and reflects in his deeds just the opposite.
I think we can all agree the work of the council does not include what we are as a nation. The council is supposed to work at fixing what is wrong with the county (roads, crime, budget), not divide a community.
May 5, 2009 at 8:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Reader, as I've said to ConcernedDorchesterCitizen: we are just going to have to "agree to disagree" on this subject.
I feel that as long as the school is not preaching any one particular religion, but is using the Bible to point out literary styles and historical events, there is no problem--especially if the course is an elective. Please, let us not waste any more time debating the same thing ad infinitum--you have your opinion, while I have mine. :-)
May 5, 2009 at 8:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen - The jury is still out on Washington because the average American is not aware of how much of Washington's own personal writings we have. I personally have a book that is somewhere around 500 pages long of letters, diaries, journals and transcripts of speeches. That is actually the point here. The American public school system stopped teaching these things decades ago. I also have a PUBLIC SCHOOL textbook from the early 20th century that has the entire Farewell Address from Washington when he left office. Any teacher that would attempt to read Washington's Farewell Address to their class today would be fired because of the "radical/extremist" statements Washington makes about religion.
May 5, 2009 at 8:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Posted by ConcernedDorchesterCitizen on May 5, 2009 at 8:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Greyrider,
I think there is a difference in getting inspiration from the Bible to outright pandering. If a politician is inspired from the words of our Lord, and does the work of our Lord, then I for one am very happy. I think as much as we disagree - we can agree on that.
For at least myself, I am offended when a politician speaks about God and reflects in his deeds just the opposite.
Seriously, you are nowhere near as offended as I am when that happens!
May 5, 2009 at 8:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
I do agree with greyrider that the history curriculum has definitely been revamped to appeal to the politically correct atmosphere in this country.
It doesn't stop with the history courses, either; many schools have dropped the traditional English canon in favor of more modern, dumbed-down tripe. I am not saying that every modern author is crap--Maya Angelou is a wonderful author, for example.
I cannot imagine going through high school without being exposed to Shakespeare, for example. Many people do not realize that more than 200 of our modern-day sayings have their roots in Shakespeare's works!
May 5, 2009 at 8:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen (anonymous) says...
Greyrider,,
Exactly my point; they are Washington's own PERSONAL (for emphasis not yelling) writings. Washington may have very well been a Christian, but in his wisdom chose to keep that private.
I am offended that Governor Hargett spent my money on wasting his time on this resolution, and will now go to Washington to present the resolution to other do nothing politicians all in the name of Christianity and photo-ops. Does that offend you?
May 5, 2009 at 8:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
Carbon dating is only reliable for a few thousand years. Any other method for determining age beyond that relies on faith at some point.
May 5, 2009 at 9:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Realamerican, I just remembered one of the points of the book I previously mentioned! As I've said, it's been years since I've read it, but it basically goes as thus:
It is widely assumed amongst Biblical scholars that Moses wrote the first few books of the Bible. Where he got his information, I'm not sure---perhaps while on the mountain when he received the 10 Commandments.
But whomever wrote the first few books only recorded (for the most part) the events which involved man. We really don't know for sure how many years went by between the creation of the earth and the first appearance of man---could have been a couple of billion.
Many claim that creation was not in six literal 24-hour days, based upon a Bible verse which alludes to the fact that, to God, a day equals a million years---or something like that (it's been a while since I've read it!).
And then there are the "Gap Theorists," which you can Google and read up on. There are pros and cons to this theory as well.
May 5, 2009 at 9:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
stephaniem (anonymous) says...
#2 and #3 are the brightest of the group but
Article 11 of the treaty of tripoli
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion, - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_w...)
http://www.usconstitution.net/tripoli...
May 5, 2009 at 9:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bobielfield (anonymous) says...
Bo Peterson did his usual fine job of reporting in his story of the Council meeting last night in Summerville, focusing on the over hour-long forum and discussion of the 2 controversial Resolutions passed by the Council 2 weeks ago and which, to say the least, caused some concern for many who attended ... the fact that "supporters" of these Resolutions (actually meaningless) declaring this, the first week in May "A Christian nation week" ... As I pointed out in my statement opposing such religious-based resolutions in a political body, the words God, Christ or Christian do NOT appear in ourConstitution and the very First Amendment affirmed the strong conviction of our founding fathers that this is NOT a Christian (or any other) religion but is truly secular as most of them knew the intolerance and dangers in a state religion ... Put simply, as I tried to do, religion belongs in a church or house of worship ... not in any political body ... We are NOT against Christianity or any other religion but do believe that for 233 years this has not changed nor it is ever likely to do so ... In the 6 years W. Bush controlled the Congress such an amendment never got out of commietee since everyone knew such an amendment, if passed, would have been declared unconstitutional ... and so it remains and anyone who thinks this has a chance of getting our of committee in this Congress is really dense and politically naive ... It was a great evening though, I enjoyed being a part of it and it shows how great a democracy we have in this country ...
May 5, 2009 at 9:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen - Interesting question. I will not sit here and claim to know the real motivation behind a politician's actions when I don't know the man personally, so let me answer this way. I support the idea of allowing Christians to speak in public, and educating people on the founding of our country, as long as they do it from a documented standpoint and not just flatly stating that we were founded on Biblical principles and leaving it at that. However, I am VERY offended when a politician, who is NOT a Christian, pretends to be one in order to court the votes of Christians. Do we always know? No we don't.
May 5, 2009 at 9:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
stephaniem - The Barbary Powers conflict was seen by some as a new Crusade. Muslims wanted war with what they saw as "Christian Nations" including the USA. The Treaty of Tripoli refers to the fact that the founders did not believe in forced conversion as did the Muslim nations of that day. They did not see themselves as being out to kill Muslims. In that regard, we were not a "Christian nation" in that non-christians were (and are) welcome here.
May 5, 2009 at 9:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen (anonymous) says...
Greyrider,
Then we are in agreement. I have no problem with anyone who follows the law and speaks in public (i.e. don't yell fire in a movie). If a councilman wishes to offer a prayer, you will see me with my head bowed praying to.
However, read the resolution, and read the remarks of the councilmen; additionally, look at the actions of the Hargett - I am taking these personally to our Senators and Reps. Please - if that isn't political pandering I don't know what is.
As a person, if he wants to discuss a resolution with Congress he should, but as my councilman don't use my money and my time to forward your political ambitions. (Before I get blasted, I know he said he is paying his own way - I am talking about the time for the resolution itself).
May 5, 2009 at 9:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sark (anonymous) says...
"only a theory"
Anytime someone says this in the context of science, you may automatically assume that they are completely ignorant or wholly misinformed. If they knew how silly it sounded to anyone who has taken Biology 101 at any college other than Bob Jones (including many Christian ones), they'd realize that they might as well be saying "well it's only a fact; supported by mountains of empirical evidence and the vast, vast majority of experts in the field."
May 5, 2009 at 9:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Theronce: the thing with carbon dating is that it is really only useful for dating things which were formerly living. It cannot date rocks, for instance.
As explained by my physics book: "The carbon-14 forms at a rate which appears to be constant, so that by measuring the radioactive emissions from once-living matter and comparing its activity with the equilibrium level of living things, a measurement of the time elapsed can be made."
In this respect, you are correct that carbon dating has its faults, because depending upon the amount of neutron bombardment of atmospheric nitrogen (which produces the isotope carbon-14), the amount of carbon dioxide (which results from carbon-14 combining with oxygen) is ever-changing, depending upon atmospheric conditions at the time that the matter was living.
I know that was fairly deep, but basically it means that if there was a major atmospheric change at or around the time that the sample was living, it could affect the accuracy of the dating process. However, carbon-14 has a fairly predictable half-life, so it is more accurate than people give it credit for. You just have to use it on organic material for it to work! :-)
May 5, 2009 at 9:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
bobielfield - There are approximately 38,000 denominations of Christianity. That means there are 38,000 slightly DIFFERENT sets of teachings. It is impossible to ESTABLISH "Christianity" in the US. Which denomination? What many people do not understand is that the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, teaches about government. The Founders themselves said that the Constitution came from the Bible. THEIR WORDS, NOT MINE! There are general principles that the various denominations agree on, but what I think you are getting confused on is the fact that what the Founders opposed was going beyond those commonly held principles into the areas that the various denominations disagreed on and trying to give one denomination preference over the others.
May 5, 2009 at 9:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
maeko (anonymous) says...
I don't think there is anything wrong with religious programs being provided at institutions of higher learning, i.e. colleges and universities. Religious topics and texts are very relevent to philosophy, theology, and history. However, colleges, etc. should not be forced to provide any certain programs or classes by the gov't. I don't see how an elective institution of learning can have gov't mandates about programs/classes. People don't HAVE to go to college. Seems like half the population would be missing out.
Religious History Week? Sure, whatever. America as a Christian Nation Week? Since when was the USA deemed a "Christian Nation"? That sounds like some other countries' creeds.
May 5, 2009 at 9:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Sark, I'm not quite sure what you mean by your post, but theories do change over the course of history, based upon new evidence.
Pasteur disproved the theory of "spontaneous generation" when, for years, that theory was accepted by the "vast majority of experts in the field." Men like Galileo and Copernicus were damned by the "experts" when they first proposed their theories of heliocentrism.
May 5, 2009 at 9:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ysillyme (anonymous) says...
Haroldreems makes sense as usual. His often misunderstood style of posting ought not to preclude those on these boards from allowing his wisdom to sink in!
May 5, 2009 at 9:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...
Posted by BootstrapRed on May 5, 2009 at 8:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"The Constitution guarantees every citizen freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion."
I could only wish that it was freedom from religion! Yet we all know that it is more than just that! This is a local body of government putting their beliefs on a pedestal and then looking down on the others that have different viewpoint than them. Christians push there myth as fact, and then look down at you when you do not buy into their crap! And you guys wonder why nonreligious people have such a disdain for religious zealots! JUST REMEMBER ATHEISTS DO NOT FLY AIRPLANES INTO BUILDINGS!
It would be a much better world with we could keep our religious beliefs to ourselves!
May 5, 2009 at 9:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
On a lighter note:
Q: Did you hear about the dyslexic, apathetic, insomniac agnostic?
A: He stayed up all night wondering if there really was a dog...but then decided that he didn't really care.
May 5, 2009 at 10:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
512c (anonymous) says...
I hope you all realize like I did several years ago that Christianity is a pile of stolen and de-ionized useless gibberish.
May 5, 2009 at 10:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tulane75 (anonymous) says...
Would a cost/benefit analysis be appropriate here? For the purpose of this post, assume that the resolutions will pass constitutional muster. Will the cost of the lawyers and legal process be worth the benefit?
What exactly is the benefit that Council seeks to bestow upon the residents of Dorchester County?
May 5, 2009 at 10:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Define "de-ionized" in this context, please. I'm curious...
May 5, 2009 at 10:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
guidedbystewart - Do you consider yourself a bigot? There are 2 different versions of Islam, one of which TEACHES its followers to kill the infidels. Where do you see this teaching within Christianity? In fact, you're being a hypocrite by implying there was something "wrong" with the killing of 3,000 innocent people. Sounds like you believe in "thou shalt not kill". Aren't you publicly expressing a "belief"? If you understand "religion" as the beliefs, principles and values by which someone lives (whatever the source), it is impossible to keep them to yourself, and out of the public square. We would have to have no government and no laws.
May 5, 2009 at 10:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reader (anonymous) says...
On America having been founded on Christian ideas: "What many people do not understand is that the Bible, especially in the Old Testament, teaches about government. The Founders themselves said that the Constitution came from the Bible. THEIR WORDS, NOT MINE!"
Where is that in the Bible? Where does the idea of an independent judiciary get mentioned in the Bible? Where is the basis for the requirement that tax legislation starts in the House of Representatives? Where is the electoral college mentioned in the Bible? What about the source for an amendment against quartering of troops? What about a postal service? In fact, where does democracy even get praised in the Bible?
May 5, 2009 at 10:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reader (anonymous) says...
That last comment seems snider than I meant it. I really am sincerely interested in where the Bible teaches anything about what beecame the foundation of the American government.
May 5, 2009 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
I'm not sure how biased this article is, because I didn't really have a chance to read it thoroughly, but you can check this out. Hope it helps! :-)
http://www.americanbible.org/absport/...
May 5, 2009 at 10:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
That's a fair question Reader -
All men created equal Acts 10:34, 17:26, Gal. 3:28, 1 Pet. 2:17
Judicial, legislative, and executive branches Constitution Isa. 33:22
Bottoms up government, Self-control, Limited federal powers First, Second, Ninth, and Tenth Amendments Mat. 18:15-18, Gal. 5:16-26, 1 Cor. 6:1-11, 1 Tim. 3:1-5, Tit. 2:1-8
Fair trial with witnesses Sixth Amendment Ex. 20:16, Dt. 19:15, Pr. 24:28, 25:18, Mat. 18:16
Private property rights Fifth Amendment Ex. 20:15,17
Constitutional checks and balances Gen. 8:21, Jer. 17:9, Mk. 7: 20-23, Rom. 3:23, 1 Jn 1:8
Interesting note - I had read the Declaration of Independence as a child, but when I read it as an adult, who had since read thru most of the BIble, it came across TOTALLY different. The Declaration of Independence is without question the most "religious" government document in the history of the world.
May 5, 2009 at 10:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...
Greyrider,
I am not a nihilist (the general rejection of established social conventions and beliefs, especially of morality and religion), just an agnostic. I know that it hard to get through that pea brained head of yours but just because you lack religion does not leave you the absence of morality (a common misconception with Christians). While there many good moral ideas proposed by Christianity since I believe that the bible was written by very intelligent men that saw the need for morality, but not the word of God, as Christians believe. Yet, the bible was written a long time ago and some of its teachings are antiquated and no longer relevant. Also, I have such basic human traits such as empathy, knowledge and wisdom, that are pretty good gages on what type of a moral path I should take. So you see, there is nothing hypocritical with my previous comment!
May 5, 2009 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...
BTW, there are many great moral stances and teachings in the Bible that many Christians seem to overlook...
May 5, 2009 at 10:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reader (anonymous) says...
GreyRider -
I remain open, but I have a hard time seeing support for American government in the references you suggest. For instance, you cited this (Gen. 8:21) as a source of a system of checks and balances:
And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart [is] evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
I'm no Biblical scholar, but I don't see the connection to checks and balances there.
May 5, 2009 at 10:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
patlabb on May 5, 2009 at 8:13 a.m. -- wrote
"Who are we as a county and as a nation? I summit we are not and never have been a Christian nation but rather a nation comprised of Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists and others too numerous to name."
###
Can you think of one glaring omission? Muslims. When the Star of David and the Cross are pulled from the public square and from the public's mind -- the Star and Crescent symbol is already on standby to assume the void.
The American Taliban are not Christian. Trust me.
May 5, 2009 at 10:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
chaslocal (anonymous) says...
Methinks the Dorchester Council should arrange a town viewing of Footloose and take notes. LOL
May 5, 2009 at 10:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ysillyme (anonymous) says...
Mabilene~
Great username and equally great post. It is not lost on me that the greatest breeding grounds for Muslims are state prisons. More Jamals in Attica than the NBA.
May 5, 2009 at 10:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
halfsheli (anonymous) says...
I'm not so sure why people still obsess that this country was built on good Christian values. Those values included the bondage and mistreatment of some humans as well as not allowing women to vote as well as raping the lands of native Americans...
May 5, 2009 at 11:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
Thanks & Exactly ysillyme --
There is a concerted radical Islamic recruitment going on in our prisons and universities. Government and the media are also being deliberately padded with individuals paving the way for Islam's goal of "Umma."
Umma = one Muslim nation.
There is a great book recently out by a former terrorist, now a Christian, and speaking out against America's lack of vigilance in confronting what is basically the rape of our Judeo-Christian nation. Right under our very eyes. The book is "The Blood of Lambs" by Kamal Saleem (not his real name). Another concept the book has taught me about Islam is:
"Al Toquah" - a Muslim military doctrine which advocates the use of deception to infiltrate the enemy and spread internal strife (working undercover). This means that any lie is condoned if it furthers victory for 'Allah'.
These radicals will stop at nothing to Islam-ize this country. They will never get tired, never give up, never run out of money, and never run out of hate. And when they accuse US of hate speech while educating the public -- we should just remind them that we HATE terrorism. Period.
May 5, 2009 at 11:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
One thing that most of us can agree on is: You have to wonder what's up when council brings this up, knowing the controversy surrounding it. I've got to wonder what the other hand is doing. Check your pockets, folks.
May 5, 2009 at 11:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
http://www.venganza.org/
Two - Shed maybe this can shed some light on intelligent design. Or at least why so many disagree with it being taught in science class.
Also remember if you think that the Christian view should be taught then you also must include the Jewish version, the Muslim version, the Hindu version (really cool one), the Buddhist version.........and every other religious version, because this is America and we have citizens of every religious belief.
May 5, 2009 at 11:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charlestonnative1963 (anonymous) says...
I am a Christian-but I am also a historian and have studied the lives of our "founding fathers" they would scream bloody murder at some of you nuts that try to mix politics and religion. They were very careful to keep it separate. Incidently SC, being one of the most religious tollerant colonies..HA....
May 5, 2009 at 11:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Dharma (anonymous) says...
If that school is actually interested in teaching all religions or faiths, then I volunteer to teach them about Wicca...do you think I would be allowed in the door of the school?
I think what reader 512c was talking about is if you look at most church altars, you will signs of Paganism there. As with the religious holidays, they are always on or very near a Pagan day of celebration. Easter is celebrated very closer to Ostara (Eostre), a Pagan day of celebrating the vernial equinox. Halloween or Samhain to us as the last harvest of the year, is covered with All Hallow's Eve or Harvest Home and Yule celebrates the birth of a new SUN (The longest night of the year) which the church celebrated Christmas as the birth of the Son. This was the way the church was able to try to relate to the Pagans. Of course if that didn't work there was always force.
Even the altar chalice, censer, candles rod, sword, the colors of the altar cloths were all stolen from Pagans.
Ever notice in a catholic mass the priest moves the censer to all the corners of the church? Is he calling God or is he aping our way of calling the elements?
So I think that is what 512c meant by de-ionized. Of course I could be wrong on that.
But it is what I see when I look at the parallels.
So if the school is really teaching about ALL religions, I am willing to teach them the old ways.
Peace and Blessings to all.
May 5, 2009 at 11:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
Dharma,
You could probably push for a corner office & the softest chair -- and be paid well with Saudi Arabian dollars during the transition period to Islamic America.
May 5, 2009 at 11:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
Blessed Be Dharma! Yes, of course we will also have to include the oldest religion of all, WICCA.
Mabilene, are the Muslims hiding in your closet or under your bed. WOW, fear has a grip on you.
I am a firm believer in as long as you harm none than do as you will. I would never dream of requiring anyone to study my religion and I expect the same.
May 5, 2009 at 11:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sark (anonymous) says...
"Sark, I'm not quite sure what you mean by your post, but theories do change over the course of history, based upon new evidence.
Pasteur disproved the theory of "spontaneous generation" when, for years, that theory was accepted by the "vast majority of experts in the field." Men like Galileo and Copernicus were damned by the "experts" when they first proposed their theories of heliocentrism."
My point was that people who dismiss theories are completely ignorant of science. Those things you mention were never "Theories" in the scientific sense of the word. With regards to Galileo and Copernicus, if you consider theologins experts on astronomy, maybe...
"There are 2 different versions of Islam, one of which TEACHES its followers to kill the infidels. Where do you see this teaching within Christianity?"
This is just insane. It's just about as stupid as saying that there are two versions of Christianity. Sure, there's Sunna and Shia, but its much more complicated than that. There's Sufis, Salafis, Twelvers, Alawis, etc, etc. No influential brance of Islam that I have heard of says that all non-Muslims have to be exterminated. The one that comes closet is the Salafi school of thought, and there's variety even within that group. Don't try and pretend that "Islam" is a monolithic entity, it's far more accurate to speak of "Islams".
As to Christians, for most of its history most of Christianity was very much in favor of killing infidels. It's only reletively recently that it's been realized that that is insane.
May 5, 2009 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
Luna, you are naive. It is not your fault.
May 5, 2009 at 11:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
Sark -- is that 'Al Toquah' in action? Christianity tells us that only the love of Jesus Christ can overcome hatred.
May 5, 2009 at 11:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
Mabilene you are a fear mongering kool-aide drinker and it is YOUR FAULT!
Do I know that there are bad people in this world that do not like us? Of course, but I opt not to make tin foil hats and stock pile can goods.
Maybe if you thought about ways to be less intolerant you would shed some of that fear that seems to be driving you a little nuts.
One thing I am not is naive.....I see you for exactly who and what you are. But thanks for playing.
May 5, 2009 at 11:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
So it is fear-mongering to defend our country, our heritage, our freedoms? What a concept, Luna!!!
May 5, 2009 at 11:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
Dorchester County should soon discover why Government shouldn't be in the religion business. Will they be including the Pagans in their Religious week or keep them out? Sorting out the Moslems, Jews, Pagans, Catholics and Protestants will keep them busy for a while.
May 5, 2009 at 11:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Charles_Town (anonymous) says...
The separation of church and state does not mean the state cannot recognize religion. The spirit of the law is probably to prevent from happening in America what was happening in England at the time. The government using religion as a means of taxation to fill their political coffers. Recognizing religion and the associate values is not the same as sponsoring them. Even if people bring forth evidence that some of the founding fathers themselves did not subscribe to a specific religion or any religion, that is not to say they did not recognize that most people do, hence putting references to God in many documents at of the time. What we are dealing with here is the same as always tolerance and respect.
May 5, 2009 at 11:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
strongjohn10856 (anonymous) says...
With respect to the question of dating fossils - the best-known absolute dating technique is carbon-14 dating, which archaeologists prefer to use. However, the half-life of carbon-14 is only 5730 years, so the method cannot be used for materials older than about 70,000 years. The material also must include carbon. Fossils, as mineralized formerly organic material do not (any longer) contain carbon.
Radiometric dating involves the use of isotope series, such as rubidium/strontium, thorium/lead, potassium/argon, argon/argon, or uranium/lead, all of which have very long half-lives, ranging from 0.7 to 48.6 billion years. Subtle differences in the relative proportions of the two isotopes can give reliable dates for rocks of any age.
May 5, 2009 at noon ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
OOOOHHHHH - I'm sorry Mabilene, or is it Jane! I love it when people wrap their intolerance up in that warm fuzzy blanket of patriotism. That way anything they do is OK.
Wow, to make it through the day without a rationalization.....it is hard isn't it Mab?
May 5, 2009 at 12:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
La Luna-tic -- you are wasting your keystrokes on me.
May 5, 2009 at 12:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
Mabilene said, "Christianity tells us that only the love of Jesus Christ can overcome hatred."
It is statements like that that make religious folk seem simple-minded and weak to those of us who are humanists.
Why can't you just... not hate?
Why do you need to love another man or god before you can figure out that you shouldn't hate?
If your mind can handle it, try empathy. Try putting youself in another's shoes. Try helping instead of judging. This is why I don't "hate."
May 5, 2009 at 12:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
Great post, strongjohn10856. Every now and again, someone posts something we can all learn from.
By the way, intelligent design and evolution do not have to be mutually exclusive. Both can believe that the world is a few billion years old and that all life evolved from single-celled organisms. Some more moderate ID proponents just believe that a god (or gods) guided the process.
In fact, many deists believe that a god created the universe, set up the rules, and then let nature take its course without divine interference. The only difference between this theory and the atheists' view of evolution is faith that a creator exists.
Then, on the other other end, we have people who believe that god cares about (and has a hand in) whether or not USC beats Clemson.
You choose with whom you'd rather associate yourself.
May 5, 2009 at 12:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
No - its fun and I wantta play!
I wonder what the world would be like if we didn't have any religious freaks at all? People that can justify anything they do to another human being because "the bible tells me so".
I bet Mab is one of those cop-out humans that thinks torture can be justified as well.
Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
Maybe Christains would be better humans if they were a little more CHRIST like? hhhhmmmmmmmm
May 5, 2009 at 12:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
Wow, that was awkward grammar on my part in that last sentence. Apologies.
May 5, 2009 at 12:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mkris (anonymous) says...
Too many Christians, too few lions.
May 5, 2009 at 12:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jme (anonymous) says...
A famous person once said..."fighting over the better religion is like fighting over who has the better imaginary friend".
May 5, 2009 at 1:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
In regards to the original issue, the resolutions:
No one is advocating a "Church of America"
No one is forcing someone to believe something.
No one is being forced to sit and listen to sermons.
No one is being forced to read the Bible.
No one is forced to agree with where the Founders' ideas came from.
Why do some people fear Christians being given a public forum? Atheists and humanists have their public forum (which IS funded by taxpayer dollars). It's called the American public school system. This is about history, not doctrine.
May 5, 2009 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Luna, seriously, you trying to quote John Lennon to win your argument is like me quoting Reverend Jim from Taxi to win mine.
May 5, 2009 at 2:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Dharma, I used to have a friend who is Wiccan (she moved away) so I'm very familiar with your religion. I absolutely agree that a lot of the modern "church rituals" and holidays are based upon Pagan traditions. :-)
Luna: I'm going to say this one more time, in case you missed the other dozen posts where I stressed this: I don't think that Christianity SHOULD BE TAUGHT (your words) in the schools, I was simply stating the merits of an optional, elective Bible history course that was taught at FDHS.
And there are some courses which you describe which are being taught at many colleges; the course is called "Comparative Religion." I have no problem with such a course, because it's good to look at all sides of things, so that one can make more informed choices.
I do agree with you that intelligent design has its cons as well as its pros, from a strictly scientific point of view; but then again, so does evolution. No theory is as "sound as a pound" because they each have their areas which cannot be proven nor thoroughly explained.
May 5, 2009 at 2:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Darwin proposed his Theory of evolution at the dawn of the archaeological age. Because of this, DARWIN SAID that he expected that we would begin to discover many "missing links" among the depths of the earth. We are still waiting, therefore, evolution is still a THEORY. Intelligent Design is also a THEORY. If any of you can find a Christian who says we should teach intelligent design as fact in the public schools, I would oppose them. The same with the age of the earth issue. I BELIEVE the earth is 10,000-15,000 years old. This is actually because of articles and presentations from scientists. They present, I think, better arguments from a scientific standpoint than the old earth advocates. There is NO WAY to say for sure, ON EITHER SIDE. Maybe the earth is billions of years old. No one knows. Hey, look at this. I'm actually advocating the idea of presenting arguments from all sides and letting people think for themselves. Something totally the opposite from what goes on in our public schools. Who is really the tolerant one here?
May 5, 2009 at 2:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
OK, Luna, that site you posted is just utter nonsense. Post one that is a bit more academic, and I might give it a look. There aren't many sites on this topic which I haven't researched, so it may be a redundant task for you.
May 5, 2009 at 2:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Greyrider, once again I agree with you. I would not promote a strictly intelligent design curriculum any more than I would promote a strictly evolutionary one. But presented together, the two theories can be the impetus for some lively, thought-provoking, intelligent discourse in the classroom.
Personally, though I do love history, I do not like to dwell on the past. After all, who REALLY cares how many years old the earth is? Will it affect my current life if I knew the absolute answer? In the grand scheme of things, I'm more concerned about where I'm heading in the future, as in Heaven or Hell--or whatever one's personal version of the two may be. ;-)
May 5, 2009 at 2:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vuduchld (anonymous) says...
Hey I'm all for it all long as the Jews, Muslims, Atheists, Agnostics, devil worshipers and Sponge Bob Square Pants views are also promoted. But we all know that South Carolina's religious views dates back to the inquisition so frankly the whole Bible thumping promotion is a complete joke and a farce.
Another example of elected officials not solving problems facing everyday citizens, sounds familiar doesn't it!
May 5, 2009 at 2:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
greyrider, the problem with your 2:08 post is that "the resolution characterized as American as a Christian Nation week" (quote from the article). So they are proposing a "Church of America."
If it were unbiased religious history or comparative religion they were teaching, I'd have no problem with it.
May 5, 2009 at 3:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
As far as the dating techniques go, one has to assume or have faith that all the rules have been consistent since the mythical Big Bang. As I understand the Theory of Everything, about 1 billion years after the big bang, at least some of the rules of physics changed to accommodate an ever expanding universe to the point where we are today. If that change actually occurred, then it is quite possible that other changes to the laws of physics have happened. You have to have faith that you are aware of all of them to believe the current dating techniques.
May 5, 2009 at 3:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
The issue with evolution and the age of the earth is that religious folks are not any good at evaluating emprical data. It is true that evolution is a theory and that the age of the earth is based on our best estimates.
But someone who truly understands science knows that NOTHING is fact and NOTHING is absolute. Everything is just our best guess based on the available data.
The available data suggests that evolution is occurring and we evolved from single-celled organisms, which evolved from a random conglomeration of proteins. The available data suggests that the earth is billions of years old, not thousands.
A rational, scientific-thinking person looks at the data with an unbiased eye and comes to the conclusion that, "well, we don't know for sure, but the data supports this."
The religious mind bends the data to supports his desired belief. Or worse, believes what someone else tells him about the data.
May 5, 2009 at 3:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
WhatMeWorry, with all due respect, I don't think you have any idea what went on in England back in the 16th, 17th, 18th centuries if you think this resolution amounts to a "Church of America".
Speaking of England, and since some here have brought up the subject, a few years ago, the BBC, long an opponent of the Roman Catholic Church, showed tremendous journalistic integrity when they produced a documentary debunking many of the false claims against the Church's role in the Inquisition. Obviously, some here have never seen "The Myth of the Inquisition". Let's try to stay on subject.
May 5, 2009 at 3:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Theronce, I'll have to check into the Theory of Everything. It is a theory of which I've never researched. But from the laws of physics as I know them, they are finite, stable, and mathematically-proven. I can't imagine the laws of physics ever changing, but I'll look into that theory. Thanks.
May 5, 2009 at 3:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
green123 (anonymous) says...
Religion is religion, it is your own belief. Everybody believes in something else, it is a part of life. I find that these god loving Christians are the most judgmental,rude, and unloving people in this country. Why does the Christian movement care about gay people getting married or by women having abortions. What about that group that went around and protested at soldiers' funerals about how they are going to hell, etc. Religion is all a sham, who knows if Jesus was the town's crazy man. When you show me believable proof, i will believe. Who cares about this bill? These legislators are just trying to get the money from religious groups for campaign donations. They all should be voted out and issues really need to be solved.
May 5, 2009 at 3:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
A good modern-day definition of an atheist is:
"Someone who hasn't studied DNA enough."
May 5, 2009 at 3:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
The problem I have with believing that we all are evolved from protozoa is that one of the laws of physics and biology states that "everything moves towards entropy." (entropy: nature moves from order to disorder)
In nature, when a genetic mutation occurs, it is rarely, if ever, for the good of the creature. More often than not, a genetic mutation weakens the specimen, not strengthens it. In that respect, even over the course of millions of years, the amount of mutations that it would take to bring a single-celled protozoa out of a pond and onto dry land would most likely bring about early death, due to malfunctioning bodily systems.
Going by these laws of nature, the data does not support the theory of evolution...but it doesn't disprove it either. As many of us here have said, it is simply impossible to prove either theory, thus they remain just that: theories.
May 5, 2009 at 3:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
Well, I can't say that I understand the Theory of Everything either. I'm one of those people who love to read Scientific American even though I am often lost early within an article and always before the end. It is interesting up to that point. And that leads me to my point that summarily dismissing my faith in favor of another belief system can't be the right thing to do. It's above my pay grade, but you are probably right that there are too many Christians that are not.
May 5, 2009 at 3:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
green 123, from a simple historical standpoint, "Marriage" is a religious ceremony in which a man and woman ask the God of the Bible to bless their relationship. When gay people ask for that same "blessing" it is making a mockery of the Jewish and Christian religions. I have no problem with gay civil unions, neither do most Christians. But leave God out of it. Who is forcing whose beliefs on whom?
There are many atheist Doctors who oppose abortion.
And I have yet to meet, read about, or hear about, one Christian, anywhere in the United States who considers "those people" who protest at the funerals, to be Christians.
May 5, 2009 at 3:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
patlabb (anonymous) says...
Hitler and theNazis used christianity to base their false teaching about the Jews. Hitler's thugs promoted faith based initiatives to call germany a Christian nation and unfortunately the Church (Roman Catholic and Lutheran) leaders supported Hitler. Local priests and ministers that disagreed with the government policy ended up with the jews in the concentration and death camps.The mass of "good" germans cheered as Hitler "defended" traditional Christian values.
What county council is doing is a slippery slope towards facsism as in the 1920s in Germany.
I think many on this blog would be happy to "fire the ovens and follow the worm" in the words of Pink Floyd.
May 5, 2009 at 3:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
As far as the "hateful Christians" argument we keep seeing here, let me give you 2 scenarios to think about.
Fred and John are walking by a parking lot and they see Joe, a well-known Christian in the community, yelling at someone. Fred says "those Christians just hate everybody" and keeps walking. John stops and realizes that Joe is yelling at his neighbor because he just found the drunk neighbor trying to drive home and they began to argue about Joe trying to stop him.
In the movie "Walk the Line" Johnny Cash is told not to perform at Folsom Prison because his Christian fans wouldn't approve. Cash says "then they're not Christians" (very true).
Newsflash - Not everyone who claims to be a Christian really is.
May 5, 2009 at 3:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
patlabb - You have got to be kidding me!!!
Hitler was an atheist who admittedly hired other atheists to go thru the Bible to find verses to pull out of context to try to support what he did. But the Roman Catholic Church (granted while quiet in public) led by Pope Pius, organized an underground (literally) organization that smuggled 85% of Italy's Jews to freedom. When Hitler found out, he murdered THREE MILLION Roman Catholics throughout Europe in the Holocaust alongside the Jews as payback.
May 5, 2009 at 3:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Also, patlabb, the extreme majority of Germany's population never knew the Holocaust was even going on in the early years. Their cheering of Hitler was completely unrelated.
May 5, 2009 at 3:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
one last tidbit for patlabb - this is from the NEW YORK TIMES editorial on Christmas Day, 1941
The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas... he is about the only ruler left on the Continent of Europe who dares to raise his voice at all... the Pope put himself squarely against Hitlerism... he left no doubt that the Nazi aims are also irreconcilable with his own conception of a Christian peace.
May 5, 2009 at 3:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
patlabb (anonymous) says...
greyrider....
All I say is really read your history. The Pope supporterd Hitler and the Nazis initially and then remained silent later while millions of Jews were killed. BTW: Hitler and the Nazis riled up the populous against the Jews as "Christ killers". Also the German people KNEW...what did they think was going on as their Jewish neighbors disappeared and they themselves took the Jewish possessions, businesses, homes etc? The German people approved the holocaust with few exceptions either by silence or by actively denouncing their neighbors. And they my friend were so called "chritians".
You mention 3 million Roman Catholics killed. Yes you are correct...mostly Poles and Eastern Europeans that Hitler had killed because he considered them inferior...and more on point those supporting this Christian Resolution probably don't consider Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Jehovah Witnesses and Mormon Christians. If they had their way we would be all wearing stars sown to our clothes!
May 5, 2009 at 4:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CHRISJIII (anonymous) says...
Religion has no place in this discussion. I wish that all of those so called christians would start living the life that they preach. Bunch of hypocrites!!!!
May 5, 2009 at 4:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
The commentary on this article is proof positive why the founding fathers were right to mandate the separation of religion and state and why our federal, state and local governments should keep in line with that ideal.
Even in instances where there are two accurate but disagreeing perspectives, there's a breeding ground for conflict. Add to that the zeal and dogma that has come about from generations of taught hatred, intolerance or even just ignorance and it becomes increasingly clear why our government is rightly obligated to stay at arms' length from religion.
There are two acceptable options for the government/religion situation, and one of them is patently ridiculous. The first is, and the one we're lucky to already have, to separate the two. The second option is to have government recognize and endorse literally *every* religion, right down to the outlandish and vacuous ones like the Church of Body Modification and the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Given the choice, the one that doesn't force anything on anyone is clearly superior.
May 5, 2009 at 4:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
Well, y'all -- just be glad you can talk about the issues for a while longer. The UK is squelching free speech. Can the US be far behind at the rate we are allowing ourselves to be neutered?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090505/a...
Note -- I don't see Geert Wilders' name on the list. He was banned after being INVITED to discuss his film FITNA with Parliament.
May 5, 2009 at 4:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
BTW -- Jacqui must not understand that the most dangerous Muslim extremists don't go around with a placard reading:
"I'm a Muslim extremist."
They tend to like to blend in and work covertly.
:0
May 5, 2009 at 4:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
maeko (anonymous) says...
I heard an invisible pink unicorn also attended the council meeting.
May 5, 2009 at 4:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
And peace be with you, Mr. Harold!
May 5, 2009 at 4:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
Y'all check this out:
http://sunlituplands.blogspot.com/200...
May 5, 2009 at 5:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sark (anonymous) says...
"The problem I have with believing that we all are evolved from protozoa is that one of the laws of physics and biology states that "everything moves towards entropy." (entropy: nature moves from order to disorder)"
Are people still using the 2nd law of thermodynamics argument without irony?
This guy will tell you how stupid that is. Oh, and he's an evangelical. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_...)
May 5, 2009 at 5:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
Oh -- before I get outta here -- Dr. B. AKA Benevolent Dictator has some great stuff here:
http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/
May 5, 2009 at 6:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
How very Christian of you, Harold, wishing brain butchery upon someone who you assume doesn't believe the same thing you do. Would that we could all be such good Christians.
Yet more proof that we're better off not having to deal religion being forced upon us.
May 5, 2009 at 8:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
regroce (anonymous) says...
what I think is being blatanly overlooked in this topic is that religion played absolutely no part of either of these bills/resolutions/declarations/whatever they were. this was nothing but politics.
County repuglicans got hit up by the state repuglicans who got hit up by the national repuglicans, and because they want money from the stimulus package to go to their friends' religious academies (and even though they object to the stimulus/recovery act overall).
Of course, that money *could* be used by such academies, and by all colleges, provided the funding went to a project that could be open to the general public despite their religion.
Repugs object; they want government funding for their friends' churches and religious schools (which happen to be big donors to the repugs! Think Bob Jones U!). The Constitution says otherwise, though, and which has been upheld by our Supreme Court more than once.
In effect, repugs can't get $$ for the same exclusionary friends that give them $$. They're upset.
To whine about it, repugs dream up some idea of blaming it on Obama. RNC hits up state repugs. State repugs hit up county repugs.
And the Dorchester COunty councilmen who introduced these concepts, which have no religious basis whatsoever and only serve to get some $$ to their donor friends, are not religious folks and with no religious intentions. That's sacrilege. that's hypocrisy. And that's offensive.
The repugs can't get their own way to use our money to dish out to friends, so they lie to their underlings, insinuating that this is religious oppression. Anybody who's buying that garbage really could use some personal communication with God about that.
May 5, 2009 at 9:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Two_Sheds (anonymous) says...
Sark: Yeah, I'll certainly believe anything I see or hear on a Wiki site, because they're just soooo academically factual. And just because someone happens to be an evangelical, doesn't automatically make me want to believe every word he says.
Though I consider myself a Christian, I've run into a lot of narrow-minded evangelicals at whom I simply roll my eyes, due to the ridiculousness of whatever agenda they happen to be pushing.
Being the academic sort, I'll take the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics (which I can mathematically prove using the appropriate formulae) over the tripe of some fly-by-night preacher any day.
May 5, 2009 at 10:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Two_Sheds, well-referenced and cited Wikipedia articles have been found to be more accurate and academically reliable than many encyclopedias and textbooks.
There's also the argument that it's flawed logic to apply thermodynamics directly to biology.
May 5, 2009 at 11:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
patlabb (anonymous) says...
If one dead soul came from the presence of God to visit an assembly of religious leaders and philosophers, that would be the end of all their teachings. ~~~~ Rabbi Nachman of Bratzlov (Talmudic Scholar)
May 6, 2009 at 7:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LarryCarterCenter (anonymous) says...
There are two preachers bragging against one another to the crowd. One chopped off a dog's tail, put upon the dog's bleeding rump his magic balm and miracle of all miracle, the dog grows a new tail right before the eyes of all who believe.
Not to be undone, the other preacher picks up the chopped off tail, applies his blessed ointment and the tail grows a new dog!
These two preachers were last seen strangling each other over custody of the new dog.
Judaism, Christianity & Islam: dog, tail and new dog. All fictions. The US Constitutional wisdom continues to evolve to stop the strangling. Before Darwin, Deism & Creationism were commonly found in the code words: "Nature and Nature's god."
A "decent respect for the opinions of mankind" is an invitation for "reason." Believers do not reason, they battle for supremacy of magic.
As science has closed the door on magic and destroys every last vestige of miracle, supernatural and "holy" claim over the mind of man, why can not people who "believe" anything without proof, put to work the best of belief, the beattitudes and love they neighbor rather than shove idiotic preacher/politician/theocratic drool into public policy?
May 6, 2009 at 8:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
steedly (anonymous) says...
ConcernedDorchesterCitizen,
I don't really think the jury is still out on George Washington. Following is a proclamation he signed on October 3, 1789. Guess this makes him the original "Christian Taliban."
WHEREAS it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favour; and Whereas both Houfes of Congress have, by their joint committee, requefted me "to recommend to the people of the United States a DAY OF PUBLICK THANSGIVING and PRAYER, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to eftablifh a form of government for their safety and happiness:"
NOW THEREFORE, I do recommend and affign THURSDAY, the TWENTY-SIXTH DAY of NOVEMBER next, to be devoted by the people of thefe States to the fervice of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our fincere and humble thanksfor His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the fignal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpofitions of His providence in the courfe and conclufion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have fince enjoyed;-- for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to eftablish Conftitutions of government for our fafety and happinefs, and particularly the national one now lately instituted;-- for the civil and religious liberty with which we are bleffed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffufing useful knowledge;-- and, in general, for all the great and various favours which He has been pleafed to confer upon us.
And also, that we may then unite in moft humbly offering our prayers and fupplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and befeech Him to pardon our national and other tranfgreffions;-- to enable us all, whether in publick or private ftations, to perform our feveral and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a bleffing to all the people by conftantly being a Government of wife, juft, and conftitutional laws, difcreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all fovereigns and nations (especially fuch as have shewn kindnefs unto us); and to blefs them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increafe of fcience among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind fuch a degree of temporal profperity as he alone knows to be beft.
GIVEN under my hand, at the city of New-York, the third day of October, in the year of our Lord, one thousand feven hundred and eighty-nine.
(signed) G. Washington
May 13, 2009 at 1:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Postandcourier.com is pleased to offer readers the enhanced ability to comment on stories. We expect our readers to engage in lively, yet civil discourse. Postandcourier.com does not edit user submitted statements and we cannot promise that readers will not occasionally find offensive or inaccurate comments posted in the comments area. Responsibility for the statements posted lies with the person submitting the comment, not postandcourier.com. If you find a comment that is objectionable, please click "report abuse" and we will review it for possible removal. Please be reminded, however, that in accordance with our Terms of Use and federal law, we are under no obligation to remove any third party comments posted on our website.
Users can now build user-to-user connections, follow friends' recent posts, add an avatar that fits their personality, and more. If you have posted here before you'll need to sign up again, or if you've never posted before, start now by signing up!
Full terms and conditions can be read here.