Tuition tax credit foes hold rally to air views

DonBar (anonymous) says...

School choice/voucher programs apparently are an incredible threat to the power structure of the democrat party and the teachers/union. The education of children in a manner that enables them to function in the future seems to be secondary to maintaining the power of the status quo.

March 31, 2009 at 3:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

cwmcpa (anonymous) says...

Is this not great, the people of color uniting against a person of color that wants to improve the education of people of color. Providing a voucher to allow the disadvantaged to attend the educational institutions of the advantaged has brought out the wrath of the "victim" industry and supported by Mr Rex. This is not about helping the poor but maintaining the status quo. Serial sexual harasser Hillary Douglas should resign for his idiotic but consistent statement. It is time to remove all preferences whether racial or gender related. This proves it is not about improvement but establishing a politcal wall against progress.

March 31, 2009 at 6:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

tellthetruth (anonymous) says...

Robert I thought I would never agree with you but you are right on the mark here and you have exsposed the festering sore on CCSD by bringing them to the light. You have my vote Robert!

March 31, 2009 at 7:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

3olivesmike (anonymous) says...

Multimillionaire Howard Rich! You can't make this stuff up.

March 31, 2009 at 7:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

MyMcClellanville (anonymous) says...

"Sen. Ford's proposal will damage already under-funded public schools, bring more division to a divided state and set the stage for businesses to make predatory loans to parents who feel pressured to choose private schools but don't have the money to do so," said Dot Scott...Funny, I didn't hear anything about the best interest of the children in this list?

http://mymcclellanville.net/2009/03/2... offers a counter point to Ketner's statement that the bill wouldn't cover charleston private schools...Archibald Rutledge Academy operates for around $3500 per student while the County spends over $20,000 of tax payers dollars per student in the same area.

March 31, 2009 at 8:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

justsaynotojoe (anonymous) says...

Just who are the "some" that think Sen. Ford has been "bought" by Howard Rich? This is a somwhat serious charge to be leveled without proof. It is even more irresponsible to publish a charge like this without something to back it up.

March 31, 2009 at 8:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

LocalNerd (anonymous) says...

I just don't get Democrats. They are pro-choice when it comes to killing children. But, they are anti-choice when it comes to educating them.

I HOPE they CHANGE their opinions.

March 31, 2009 at 8:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

nativecharlestongirl (anonymous) says...

I never thought I would agree with Robert Ford... He is correct. With the public schools the way they are ran and the education provided to our children it is an absolute disgrace. Look at the stats. look at what they pay our teachers and then take a look at the product, not good at all. Parents should have the right to chose and if their choice is to send their children to receive a better education then why not help compensate them for that? I have sent my child to private schools for four years. It is not cheap, I am a single mother and don't receive a dime in child support. But I prioritize so that my child has a better chance to receive a great education. This is a huge issue because schools and taxes for them are the cash cow... just take a look at your tax bill. Each of us pays in towards that education system that is continuing to fail. At least they have the convenience of blaming it on the economy why it is not a good time to make this move, but the economy hasn't been in the toilet for 10 years and how long have our schools been there????

March 31, 2009 at 8:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...

Even if this was a good idea, the State couldn't fund it now. With over 100 million more being cut from the state education budget and state tax revenues falling, there's no possible way to implement this. It will save wealthy families a little on private school tuition, but poorer families will have to finance tuition and then try to collect a tax credit. That's unlikely to work and would still leave them thousands in the hole.

Private Schools are becoming unable to compete in the urban part of Charleston now, facing empty desks and short or nonexistent waiting lists next year. They can't compete with schools like the School of the Arts, Academic Magnet or Wanod's prep programs.

You can see video from yesterday's event on the events facebook page at http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid...

March 31, 2009 at 9:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jk_newhard (anonymous) says...

Ketner IS correct - the tuition of MOST of the private (both religious and secular) schools in Chas, Berkeley, & DChester counties are much higher than the tax credit.

March 31, 2009 at 9:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

MyMcClellanville (anonymous) says...

wjhamilton - Do you consider $20-30k for a family to be wealthy? Because that's the kind of people that this bill will help. Even lower income families could attend if the private donation side of the equation works out. Not every private school costs $20k a year, there are plenty who perform very well and cost under $5k, this bill would cut those costs in half and allow parents that value their children's education to fund the rest if they are able or apply for donations if they are not.

You're right that it is hard for the private schools to compete against the magnet schools because they don't have to worry about silly things like budgets! You're making a point that nobody is arguing. This is about better educational opportunities for the masses not the very small percentage of those fortunate enough to go to a magnet school. You're actually making the point for the bill when you acknowledge the vast difference between the standard public schools and the magnets.

I personally don't want to see public school disappear just get their act together and just like capitalism allows for competition and no monopolies so would this bill allow for educational choices for parents who previously had none.

March 31, 2009 at 9:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

MyMcClellanville (anonymous) says...

jk_newhard - Any data to support your statement? I couldn't find much myself but San Diego Tribune reported in 2003 "Median private elementary school tuition in...Charleston, S.C., $3,150." I'm sure it's gone up a little in six years, but I wouldn't say "much higher than the tax credit".
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?p...

March 31, 2009 at 10:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Rggr (anonymous) says...

Ketner's argument is a diversion. This bill does not mean that all of these kids will go to private schools. They can go to other public schools. It's doubtful that all of these kids from failing schools would pass an entrance exam for the private schools - some would, but certainly not all.

March 31, 2009 at 10:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mosinfan (anonymous) says...

Linda Ketner is either a liar or is intentionally misleading the public wtih her statement that private schools in Charleston run about $20,000 per year. Maybe the royal blue blood type of private school that her and her defocratic friends send their children but not most people.

Drive down I-26 past the Ashley Phosphate exit and look at the sign on Northwoods Christian School, you can send a child to that school for less than 5k per year and the child will come out with a much superior education than 90% of the public schools in the area.

March 31, 2009 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

LocalNerd (anonymous) says...

Rock On MyMC!

WJH3 and I had this battle a couple of days ago at

http://www.charleston.net/news/2009/m...

In that post I showed how giving tax credits to students who leave public schools to attend private schools ACTUALLY INCREASES THE MONEY AVAILABLE PER STUDENT in the public schools. I did not expand my argument to show that the math becomes even more favorable for the public schools because they can release poor performing teachers when class sizes are smaller.

In addition to killing babies and keeping kids stupid, the Dems never want to confuse their emotional tizzies with facts!

Here's another fact; my child's private school is about $10,000 per year. I only know of three that break the $15,000 threshold in the Charleston area and most are less than $8,000. I know because I'm looking for a place to send my second child to first grade.

It's interesting how the Dem argument is swinging from "this is bad for public schools" to "this will open the doors to predatory lending". Have you all lost your minds? What bank on earth would give someone a loan for tuition? Look at up the tuition for First Baptist, James Island Christian, Charleston Christian or Mason Prep. The proposed tax credit would nearly fund tuition at some schools and would substantially decrease the household out of pocket for others. By the way, I don't borrow the $10K for tuition, I just drive an old car.

Linda Ketner, WJH3, jk_new...Please do just a little fact checking before you ramble on in the posts or march in the streets.

March 31, 2009 at 10:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

nativecharlestongirl (anonymous) says...

Some private schools in the lowcountry ARE outrageous in prices. however there are some REALLY fabulous schools for under 4-5K a year. My daughter goes to a wonderful private school that is $ 4,150 a year (which does include all her books, notebooks and they are provided throughout the year). They were uniforms but the school offers used uniforms for almost nothing and usually if you size them right you can wear the same uniforms for 2 years and then pass them on....
Public schools vs. magnet schools are not what is causing the problem. Tax credit or voucher would be nice. If you don't want to use it then DON'T

March 31, 2009 at 10:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mosinfan (anonymous) says...

The public school system needs to get flushed down the toilet. A black hole for tax dollars. It has done nothing more than produce hundreds of thousands of drones and statists who know nothing of their countries heritage and how our government was designed to work. How many of these graduates believe that their country owes them something, or that others who work hard for what they have should have to "share" it with them.

Take a look at who is against school choice, and the answer is right there in the crowd. Nothing but a bunch of liberal drones that want to perpetuate statist ignorance so they can continue to control the masses of drones. All the typical democrat, liberal groups.

March 31, 2009 at 10:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

grand (anonymous) says...

10 years ago I sent my 3 kids to private school in north charleston for less than 5,000$ Soon I will be sending my grandson for less than 5,000. Public schools are given much more than that per child and still can't educated them. Whey would SC rather pay 8-20,000 per year per student so they could go to public schools that cant teach the basics?Why can private schools teach for less? And don't tell me they dont deal with problem kids, my son was adhd and about drove us all nuts but could read in 4k.
Hey since some of the kids would leave, maybe the kids that stay can have more one on one with the teachers...
You have to win a lottery to get your kids into a magnet school, give school choice a shot, at a minimum let these kids transfer within their districts. Vouchers would be better. Every time I pay for my childs tuition, I save SC that 8,000$ per child.
Not rich, driving old car, skipping car payment.

March 31, 2009 at 11:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mb300sl (anonymous) says...

Dot Scott...NAACP...BS...Go Sen. Ford!!!!

March 31, 2009 at 1:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

SCdeacinNYC (anonymous) says...

yes Ford was bought by Howard Rich. Howard Rich is a sham known to stick his nose in other state's political affairs. He's campaigned for bills like this in many other states. He's given money to many state and local officials using various different NYC based real estate company names. He has a definite agenda and is using Ford as his SC-based mouthpiece. Just google his name. A previous article in P and C explained that Ford's gubernatorial campaign was going to be mostly financed by Rich, how convenient that he's know "seen the light" on tax credits for private schools. Don't be fooled, Ford is still the same old idiot, just this time with a wealthy patron pulling his puppet strings.

March 31, 2009 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

MarshGate (anonymous) says...

According to the Heritage Foundation there are about 60,000 students presently enrolled in private schools in SC. At $3000 each, the voucher program would cost 180 million dollars if not one single public school student transferred. With SC budget in crises, will someone tell me where the 180 million dollars will come from? If only 5% of the 700,000 public school students transferred to private school, this will add another 105 million dollars to the cost without any savings to the public school system since this will only reduce class size by about one child a classroom and leave no place for cost reduction. It is irresponsible to discuss a private school voucher system without setting forth its cost and identifying how that cost would be met.

March 31, 2009 at 1:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...

Reiterating my post from the other day

Posted by guidedbystewart on March 25, 2009 at 2:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There are a couple of reasons why private schools out perform public schools, but the main reason is that private schools do not have the dilemma of educating the masses.
But anyways here are the reasons broken down...
Private schools can be picky at whom they take in, public schools can not. It is much easier for a private school to kick out incorrigible students, under performing student, ECT.
Parental involvement is much getter in private schools, but then again, if you are paying a bunch of money into your school, your child's academic achievement would be much more monitored.
On average, the class size in private schools are much less than of that of public schools.
The teachers' employment is more competitive in private schools, also many teachers do not have to deal with the same kind of "riff raff" that they would in many public schools, because of the above reasons.

Yet, we do still have school choice and private schools are an option. If you want your child to go to private school and you can not afford it, you should push your kid enough for them to get a scholarship. It is doubtful that a voucher system would lessen the cost of private schools. If private schools received vouchers, all it would do is raise the tuition in order to keep the masses out. There is no way the government can give money to the private school system without taking money away from the public school system. This is the last thing that needs to happen in this State. Besides private schools are a business, they are there to make money, public schools are not.

March 31, 2009 at 1:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mosinfan (anonymous) says...

Marshgate, what in the Sam Hill are you talking about...?

First of all there are not plans or current bills that propose a voucher of any kind. The bill in question is for a TAX CREDIT. If the tax credit is not used it costs the state NOTHING. Not sure where you get your cost of 180,000 from. Please get your stuff straight before muddying the discussion with false information.

March 31, 2009 at 2:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mosinfan (anonymous) says...

Ask any public school student you can find to explain Federalism to you...

A direct link to what our new Administration is doing...drones graduate from public schools, they vote...and wa la...look what we get.

March 31, 2009 at 2:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jadedncynical (anonymous) says...

It can't possibly be news that Dot Scott, Hillery Douglas, the NAACP, and the Charleston County School District oppose tuition tax credits. To their everlasting shame, their arguments aren't about the children, or what's best for them. All they can manage are some reheated arguments about how we should all support our failing and underperforming schools.

For the life of me, I can't understand why that mindset exists. As a consumer -- and that's exactly what parents are, consumers for the best possible education for their children -- I wouldn't buy an inferior product if I had the opportunity to get a better product at or near the same price. It's disingenuous and deceitful for these naysayers to attempt to browbeat Sen. Ford back into line with these tired arguments.

The bottom line is that this proposal threatens their power structure, and that's the reason why it must be stopped. Sadly, that has nothing to do with kids.

March 31, 2009 at 2:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mosinfan (anonymous) says...

Ask any public school graduate you can find to explain to you what provision in Article II of the Constitution (covers the responsibilities and authority granted to the Executive Branch by the States)....ask them what provision authorizes the President of the United States to fire an employee of a private corporation.

Yep, that would be the deer in the headlights look from a drone...

March 31, 2009 at 2:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

MarshGate (anonymous) says...

A tax Credit is a reduction in the state's income by the amount of the credit. A credit is not a deduction from income, it is a dollar for dollar reduction in taxes paid. 60,000 tax credits of $3000 translates to a reduction in the state's income of $180,000,000. Having been educated in a public school in a state which taught mathematics, I am quite sure my point is correct---whether a voucher or a credit, the program will cost the state 180 million dollars if not a single student transfers to a private school and 265 million if 5% of public school students transfer---assuming the private school system can absorb 35,000 transferees. That is what in Sam Hill I am talking about! Now you tell me where in Sam Hill, this sad excuse for a state can find 265,000,000 in this economy to make up for the missing taxes? It is the irresponsible tax reductions of the last four years which has destroyed the state's budget but I guess a mere 265 million or so in additional reductions will hardly matter to those who support this irresponsible program.

March 31, 2009 at 3:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

MarshGate (anonymous) says...

The correct cost if 5% transfer is 285 million, not 265 million. A typographic error on my part.

March 31, 2009 at 3:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

Rocks66 (anonymous) says...

At least under Ford's plan, some of these kids will have a chance. Without it, NONE of them will. Don't let the bureaucrats and the teacher's unions determine your kid's future. Carve it out for yourself, and tell the obstructionists and naysayers where to go. Once your child graduates from high school (assuming that they're in that HALF of S.C. h.s. students who do graduate), the die is pretty much cast. Trying to give them the tools they'll need in a post-grad situation ain't gonna happen. What your kid leaves school with is pretty much all he or she will have to make their own way. When that day comes, make sure you can say to yourself that you gave them the best that you could, regardless of your circumstances. Don't allow the NEA, the government agencies, and the various "education" boards to determine that for you, or you will always be blaming yourself. These folk's interests lie in preserving a system that provides non-performers like themselves a haven. Your interest should be in ensuring that your kids have the same opportunities that every kid in this country has.

March 31, 2009 at 3:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jescee77 (anonymous) says...

I struggled with the decision to send my child to private or public school when it came time for him to start kindergarten. I chose private school for the following reasons: I could not stand the thought of my child to attend an over-crowded, under-funded local public school where we are TOLD he would attend. I didn't want my son or his education to suffer as he became only 1 child in a class of 25-30 kids. Not to say that public school teachers aren't wonderful, but how can anyone get a proper education under these conditions. Plus, private school offers choices for parent's to find a school that supports their values. Have you seen the discipline problems in the schools lately? I am by no means "well off, " and my husband and I work hard to send my child to private school. Maybe if this tax credit would help a few other families to make the same choice, it would also help decrease the overcrowding in the public system.

March 31, 2009 at 4:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mosinfan (anonymous) says...

Marshgate, let me slow this down and try again. How in the Sam Hill can a tax credit cost the state a dime if as you say "if not a single student transfers to a private school".

If a student doesnt leave the public school system that family cannot claim the tax credit. If the family doesnt take the tax credit how I ask again...can it cost the state a dime. You are saying it will cost all those $$ even if not one student leaves the school system.

Come on buddy...slow down and think about what your saying...

March 31, 2009 at 4:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jk_newhard (anonymous) says...

As to those who asked how I arrived at the tuition numbers, I used sciway.net to look at private school websites (both religious and sectarian). I only looked at Charleston, Dorchester, and Berkeley counties because that's where I live.

March 31, 2009 at 4:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

MarshGate (anonymous) says...

The tax credit will be available to every elementary and high school student, not just those who presently go to public school. It will be available to the 60,000 or so students PRESENTLY in private school. That will cost 180 million, even if no one transfers. Now do you understand?

March 31, 2009 at 4:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

LocalNerd (anonymous) says...

jk

I checked Sciway and looked at the first 6 private schools alphabetically. Three had tuition of $10,000 or more (max $13,250 hardly the $20K put forth by Ketner). The other three were $5,172 or less (min $4,315). Kids in failing schools, whose parents most likely have the least financial resouces would receive $3,650 (not just the $2,423 cited by "Forgetner") which is only a pack of smokes a day away from a full year of tuition!

March 31, 2009 at 5:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

SCdeacinNYC (anonymous) says...

Reiterating MY comments from the other day and agreement with guidedby's commens from the other day...

When I was in school my parents refused to keep me in a failing school. They moved my sister and I to another school within our district. You DO have that choice, hundreds of parents make that choice every year to send their kids to another school rather than the ones in their own neighborhoods because they aren't adequate. Besides as coolfreak mentioned, I don't trust the state to be able to adequately regulate this system to prevent fraud and I sincerely doubt the biggies like Porter Gaud and Ashley Hall are going to be jumping for joy and opening their arms to every parent that wants their kid to do better. Those schools are businesses and have standards and they should. I suspect only a handful would make it in that far. What about the other 95%, are they doomed?

I'd also like to add that some of these "lower rung" private schools are no better than an average performing public school. Anyone can start a school, charge money and dupe people into thinking they are getting something better than they are for sending their kids to a Wando High or James Island High (I dont know Charleston County that well) or a Hanahan High or Stratford High or so on. People rage about "handouts" and people wanting what they can't afford. I have a few friends that went to elite private schools in the area on scholarships....they were exceptional students living in not so great areas and they were able to secure scholarships. I also know many more people who instead sent their kids to better public schools than the ones in their area. If you care enough you'll make that sacrifice. You have options other than asking for someone to subsidize your child's private school education (in any way...) I'm assuming this will also go to parents who ARENT disadvantaged and have their kids in private school as preference....to me that's problematic.

March 31, 2009 at 7:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

memen99 (anonymous) says...

SC, you are correct. If your child attends a failing school, you can move them to another school within the district. But, what about the child in a failing district? ALL money allocated per child should follow each student to the school of choice, whether it is in the same district or county. Then some of the deaf school boards could be "Redesigned".

Because of CCSD's inability to provide a decent education, I too made sacrifices, worked 2nd jobs and sent my children to private school. All the while paying my CC taxes, much of which went to the CCSD. If I could have gotten any of my tax dollars back, maybe we would not have had to live on a beans & rice budget all those years while 75 Calhoun kept asking for more.

I think I like this idea. Way to go Ford!

March 31, 2009 at 9:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

majorjohnson (anonymous) says...

The truth is that the opponents are opposing funding eduction for children. If they cared one whit about the education of the child they wouldn't care if the education the child received were private or public. What they care about is supporting the government school system, with no regard to whether or not the children in that system are educated. Expect the same when it comes to health care.

March 31, 2009 at 10:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

wonderdog (anonymous) says...

Quote from wjhamilton3:
"Private Schools are becoming unable to compete in the urban part of Charleston now, facing empty desks and short or nonexistent waiting lists next year."

Which private schools? Ashley Hall, Porter Gaud, Mason Prep, First Baptist and Bishop England have waiting lists and NO empty desks. These schools have expanded their programs and student numbers and are planning to enlarge their facilities in the near future if they haven't already done so. Private schools appear to be a big issue for you, given your frequent attacks on private schools. Parents have the right to send their kids to private schools if they choose. Surely you respect the right to do so.

Continuing:
"They can't compete with schools like the School of the Arts, Academic Magnet or Wanod's prep programs"

Have you checked SAT scores and college acceptances? You are entitled to your opinion, and that's all it is - nothing more.

March 31, 2009 at 10:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

mtpmom2 (anonymous) says...

Tax credits should not only be offered to those less fortunate. I am getting very frustrated from reading and hearing about all the money we give out to those less fortunate. I work very hard, and cannot afford to pay for a private school education, but am forced to. We live in Mt Pleasant and should attend High School in Mt Pleasant; but as a child needing a smaller learning environment, our high school doesn't offer that. Where is my "No child left behind" or "Tax Credit?" For those of you who think it doesn't have to cost $20,000 a year for a private school education, try having a child with a learning disability who cannot get into one of these simple small private schools. We are forced to pay the $15,000 - $23,000 a year for private school tuition, to get our children the education they deserve. Where is our help? Why should we have to pay for an education, why should you have to be less fortunate or poor to get assistance with an education? Every child deserves an education! Smaller schools is what SC needs to help their children get educated. We also need technical schools for those who need to learn a trade for gainful employment because they will not be able to attend college due to cost of private education or grades.

April 1, 2009 at 8:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )