Ford pushes school tax credits
Democrat says he wants to aid students in failing schools, but some see political motive
COLUMBIA — Sen. Robert Ford was hoarse from yelling over the crowd at the Statehouse that turned out Tuesday to see him advocate what he thinks is best for children in South Carolina schools — giving them tax dollars to transfer out.
Senator Robert Ford (D - SC)
The Charleston Democrat, who once opposed such things, said he had a change of heart and regrets not acting sooner on behalf of students in failing public schools. Suspicions for some, though, were raised when Ford, who recently announced plans to run for governor in 2010, revealed that a brochure he mailed to 450,000 voters was paid for in part by a wealthy New York businessman known for making large campaign contributions to school-choice supporters.
Ford said he would take campaign money from multimillionaire Howard Rich for his gubernatorial bid. But, for now, Ford said he was just looking toward Rich to help promote the bill he filed earlier this month to provide children with a tuition tax credit worth $2,433 for most, $4,867 for students with special needs and $3,650 for those who attend a failing school.
"When I do something, it's because I have that conviction," Ford said, insisting the bill has nothing to do with financing his campaign. "I am doing this for the children who are failing. If you are any kind of man or any kind of woman and you don't care about kids going to failing schools, then something's wrong with you as a person."
Rex's statement
State School Supt. Jim Rex's statement about school choice (Word Document)
The bill
Visit the South Carolina Legislature web site and type in bill 520 in the search box.
The 2009 South Carolina Education Opportunity Act would give tuition tax credits to students who transfer from one public school to another public or private school. Scholarships funded by charitable contributions also would be available for children whose parents earn up to 200 percent of the federal poverty line, which is $44,100 for a family of four.
The bill is the latest evolution in the private school choice debate that has been going on since 2004, and it is aimed at helping children leave schools that receive "below average" or "at-risk" ratings on annual report cards.
Supporters argue that competition will improve the public school system, and in the meantime children should be given every chance to receive the best education possible. Others, chief among them state Superintendent of Education Jim Rex, say that siphoning much-needed tax dollars away from public schools, not to mention many good students, is no way to improve them.
Rex said he does not see Ford's bill gaining traction, especially in a year when the state education budget has been cut by $387 million. He said choice should come from within the public school system, including bills filed Tuesday in the House and Senate to create committees to develop new educational options within two years.
Phil Noble, a Charleston businessman and president of the S.C. New Democrats, has been tracking campaign contributions Rich, the New York financier, has made in South Carolina. Noble said Ford is a good and honorable man but is on the wrong side of the school choice issue.
"It will lead to the re-segregation of our schools and lead to worse education, not better," Noble said. "Howard Rich is nothing but a carpetbagger who is trying to use our school children as lab rats in his radical social experiment."
If Ford continues his gubernatorial bid, Noble said he has no doubt that Rich would channel thousands of dollars in contributions to him.
The glossy, full-color, 8-inch by 10-inch flier that Ford said Rich and other others paid for pictures a black boy sitting on a desk with his head in his hands. It reads: "Why should his only choice be a failing school? School choice should be a right, not a privilege." On the back Ford is pictured with the quote, "If failing schools are bad for the rich, why are they good for the poor?"
Ford was a one-time opponent of using public money to help parents of private school students. Now, he said he has had a change of heart when he began investigating how the school choice works in other states.
Previous stories
Study critical of Sanford's school choice plan, published 02/08/05
Veto of school choice bill sustained, published 06/29/07
New plan for choice emerges; Senate proposal would include private schools, published 05/04/07
"I don't have no regrets of taking money out of a public school," Ford said. "The money is not for that school. The money is to educate little Johnny.
"If the school's not doing its job, then we're supposed to take the money and give it to little Johnny's mama to go to any school that she wants to send him to, (to) make sure little Johnny grows up to be one of y'all one day."
Sen. Darrell Jackson, a Hopkins Democrat and a prominent members of the Legislative Black Caucus, said he does not support Ford's legislation, but he does not condemn him for pushing it.
"I think his heart's in the right place," Jackson said. "I think he genuinely cares about what is happening to poor, struggling children. I can't say that of everybody else whose always promoted this issue.
"Maybe his opinion is that this will radically shake up the argument. In the end, his proposal may not prevail, but we may get better public schools as a result of what he does."
IN THE LEGISLATURE - other action
STIMULUS MONEY: After sparring with the White House about how to use stimulus funds, South Carolina Gov. Mark Sanford has ordered state agencies and local government officials to give the state details on how they use the money.
Friday's executive order told officials to provide the information and cites laws requiring them to comply. If they don't, Sanford can remove them from office.
"That is the law and that would certainly be the teeth behind it," Sanford spokesman Joel Sawyer said Tuesday.
The executive order came as Sanford ended a week of back-and-forth with the White House over his plans to spend $700 million in stimulus cash to pay down state debt, including borrowing for state education facilities and to cover the state's unemployment checks. The White House rejected Sanford's efforts, saying the money had to be spent to stimulate the economy, educate children and spare jobs.
Sanford called on legislators to find a way to pay down debt with the money anyway. Senate Finance Committee Chairman Hugh Leatherman, R-Florence, called it "a foolish request" because there is no money to do that.
CIGARETTE TAX: Protests from convenience store operators wasn't enough to stop legislation raising the state's cigarette tax by 50 cents a pack.
Representatives from two trade groups testified Tuesday before a House panel handling House Speaker Bobby Harrell's plan to raise the tax and spend the $139 million it would raise on a new health insurance program for low-income workers.
Brad Poe of the South Carolina Association of Convenience Stores said the increase would come on top of the 62-cent increase in federal cigarette taxes that take effect in the next couple of weeks.
Reach Yvonne Wenger at 803-799-9051 or ywenger@postandcourier.com.
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Comments
BillytheKid (anonymous) says...
Can Sanford smell coffee when it is brewing?
March 25, 2009 at 4:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MisWesaMoves (anonymous) says...
Ford...still FOS...nothing's changed...
March 25, 2009 at 6:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
Because your children's school is failing is no excuse for your child to fail. Take an active, positive, tutorial roll in the child's education, and the child will succeed.
March 25, 2009 at 7:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
moonpie (anonymous) says...
gobenor ford?
March 25, 2009 at 7:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
moonpie (anonymous) says...
sorry thats gobenor fowd
March 25, 2009 at 7:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ProudNative (anonymous) says...
I hope he never becomes "gobenor".
March 25, 2009 at 8:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
I'm still suspicious of him, but regardless of Ford's personal motivation for supporting school choice, it's a long overdue idea. In fact, I support getting rid of the public school system altogether. Just have vouchers and let parents send their kids wherever they want. Schools could be liberal or conservative, religious or secular, no frills or a lot of whistles and bells, whatever the parents want. Freedom of education, what a concept!
March 25, 2009 at 8:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
carolinadude (anonymous) says...
"It will lead to the re-segregation of our schools and lead to worse education, not better," Noble said. "Howard Rich is nothing but a carpetbagger who is trying to use our school children as lab rats in his radical social experiment."
Our socialist government educrats have for decades been using our government schools for social engineering. Whose "coolaid" has this Phil Noble been drinkin?
"The Gipper" wanted to eliminate the US Dept of Education. It's long overdue! Not only are our children like subjects in a liberal laboratory and subject to radical liberal indoctrination, the government education system is largely resposible for bankrupting this country.
March 25, 2009 at 8:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
803scdantes (anonymous) says...
It has always been funny to me how the politicians who support public schools so vehemently send their kids to private schools or to the better public schools.
March 25, 2009 at 8:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
carolinadude (anonymous) says...
It will be very interesting to have a Democratic candidate for governor proponent for school tax credits vs. a GOP candidate who is a vocal proponent for tax credits debating the merits of the issue. WOW!! AWESOME!!!
March 25, 2009 at 8:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimjones (anonymous) says...
cdude, he has been drinking MY flavor-aid!!! I just listened to part of Ford's "speech" on the radio and am wondering how in the world he got elected to public office.
March 25, 2009 at 8:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
palmettotree (anonymous) says...
He will be our next governor, the blacks who are on public assistance will see to that. I know a racist comment but only because Ford is racist and he does not deserve my respect.
I'm still suspicious of him, but regardless of Ford's personal motivation for supporting school choice, it's a long overdue idea. In fact, I support getting rid of the public school system altogether. Just have vouchers and let parents send their kids wherever they want. Schools could be liberal or conservative, religious or secular, no frills or a lot of whistles and bells, whatever the parents want. Freedom of education, what a concept!
GRey, why have vouchers and let the kids go to any school they want to? Why not just use all the money to work on the problem schools? If they went to any school, can you imagine how much it will cost to send them to that school? How much it will cost the school system in bus fare for these kids? Even if they were to go to better schools it won't help because the parents are not involved, all they are worried about is them and them only. It isn't up to the state to make sure the kids get a good education it is up to the parents of these kids.
March 25, 2009 at 8:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jk_newhard (anonymous) says...
Again, they introduce a bill that doesn't give poor parents the option of sending THEIR children to private school. Look at the tuitions and make the bill realistic - then I'll support it.
March 25, 2009 at 8:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
regulardude (anonymous) says...
palmettotree - You seem like an intelligent person, but when you make a racist statement like that, your point becomes null and void. There are plenty of poor whites in SC just as well as blacks. No need for the racial comments. Racial harmony is long overdue in this state. Blacks and whites died in the revolutionary war (Ft. Moultrie) which is the basis for that palmetto tree on our flag and your name.
March 25, 2009 at 8:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
beefsaver (anonymous) says...
The smell of "Rush Limbaugh" is heavy in the air. Bleating sheep going on about "government schools" and "radical liberal indoctrination" all the while ignoring what the cost to benefit analysis shows. Providing a good education for all our citizens benefits YOU the taxpayer and YOU the businessman. Educated people require less public assistance, make fewer stupid decisions that drive up everyone's insurance rates, and are less likely to engage in criminal activities. Meanwhile, the more educated workers make better decisions and provide more assets to their employers.
School choice is a band-aid problem to an open, gushing wound. Our schools are underfunded, and there's no two ways about it. However, the only way that they can succeed is if all parents take an active role in their childrens' educations and teach them to respect authority. Even the best-equipped teacher cannot instruct when out-of-control students are off the leash, distracting, obstructing, and in some cases assaulting the educator. This isn't a liberal or conservative problem, this is a societal problem that is removing bricks from the foundation while those on the parapet wring their hands over giving tokens to attend private schools.
Believe it or not, the "exclusive" private schools around here can't hold a candle to the normal public schools in much of this country. If only long ago the politicians hadn't decided that education was for the rich and only the rich, we wouldn't be a laughingstock.
March 25, 2009 at 9:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ysillyme (anonymous) says...
Imagine what would happen if you had tigers and antelope in the same confines at the zoo; chaos surely would ensue. So long as we force white and children of color to attend the same schools we are inviting failure and chaos. As a former substitute teacher I can assure you black children do not want to attend classes w/ white children any more than vice versa. Vouchers would allow parents to decide what is best for the students, and granted it may lead to segreagated schools BUT our school system would improve.
March 25, 2009 at 9:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cappy (anonymous) says...
A failing school does not make failing students. Failing students make failing schools. Until the parents of these kids get involved and make decisions like RESPONSIBLE parents and GET INVOLVED in the education of their children the only outcome of the vouchers will be more failing schools. And don't pull the race card. These kids have the opportunity for education, they just chose not to take it.
March 25, 2009 at 9:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
Putting additional support into the State's Charter Schools would be a more positive option. We have several Charters doing very well in Charleston county, serving diverse groups of students. Most have waiting lists. Now we're told no more Charter Schools can be opened in Charleston County due to a lack of funds. Where are the funds for all of this going to come from?
Between Charter Schools, Magnet Schools and No Child left behind we have functional school choice for Charleston County now. Hundreds of Children are attending Wando, West Ashley and James Island Charter that were zoned for failing schools. The new Math and Science Magnet School on the Rivers campus downtown is doing well and turning out good test scores. East Cooper Montessori Charter had great test scores and a very long waiting list. Schools with good test scores and ratings throughout the county are attracting motivated families.
However, at the end of the day, with all this choice there are going to be toxic schools nobody cares about full of kids nobody cares about, what is left where all the motivated parents have fled and the community around the school has been degraded to the point where it can't generate support. Vouchers won't change that. Those schools are being pumped up with extra funding now, but that doesn't fix the problem either. Principals get fired, the worst schools get closed but in the end, like everything else if people have choice some things are not going to be chosen. No matter how much you move things around and how much movement and choice you enable, something has to be at the bottom.
If we don't have an economy which attracts skilled labor and talent, we'll be left with a population where a lot of people don't really care about education. Of course, that will make it harder to attract jobs, skilled labor and talent, which causes the area to spiral downward.
If private schools solved Charleston's economic and educational problems, Charleston would be doing very well. In fact they aggravate our historic problems and vouchers at any level the state can afford wont fix that either.
March 25, 2009 at 9:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Our schools are OVERFUNDED. When you have a government school where no one ever gets fired for failing to educate the students and no one is watching how taxpayer money is spent, waste runs rampant. Private schools operate on far less money and their students outscore public school students by leaps and bounds.
March 25, 2009 at 9:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ashleyriver (anonymous) says...
"I don't have no regrets taking money out of a public school," said Ford.
Another grammatical example of a fine South Carolina public education...... I'm sad to admit, but occasionally it IS embarassing being an SC native.
March 25, 2009 at 9:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ginjet (anonymous) says...
The key here is to follow the money. What's in this for Howard Rich and his investment banker buddies? No one can honestly believe they care about educating the masses in South Carolina. So what is their motive? Clearly school vouchers / tax credits will not cover the total cost of tuition to any private school -- no one is saying these student transfers will be free to their parents -- these are NOT scholarships. The thousands of dollars parents will need to make up the difference between the voucher and the tuition will be lent to them by these out-of-state financial wizards at credit card rates. Shame is a powerful tool to use against parents -- accuse them of not wanting the best for their children and most parents would do whatever it takes to prove otherwise, including taking on debt they can ill afford. The poor get poorer and the Rich get richer.
March 25, 2009 at 9:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
If this was about the education of the child the money would go to the child's education without regard to where the child gets the education. This is about government schools getting ALL the education dollars, and it has nothing at all to do with the education of the child. If the public schools supply a good education vouchers is no threat to them at all, and if they end up with nothing but the miscreants and mentally disabled who are incapable/unwilling to attain an education they have them anyway. If the children who are capable of attaining an education get one why would any education advocate give a thimble of warm spit about where they achieved it?
March 25, 2009 at 9:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ginjet (anonymous) says...
Please provide references to the data that show the private schools outperform public schools. You can't because private schools in SC choose to not participate in the same standardized testings as the public schools so that they cannot be compared 'apples to apples.' There is no accountability in the private school system.
And SC schools have NEVER been fully-funded, much less over-funded. Public records document that they have never, in over 100 years, been granted the budget asked for. Instead of buying into the anti-public education groups' propaganda, do your homework before simply regurgitating unfounded statements that are easily questioned and answered.
I challenge anyone to spend a full school-day in a public school in SC and then continue to say our schools are overfunded. If they have everything they need, that school has an outstanding PTA, PTO or Booster Club because your taxes don't even come close to covering the cost of educating a child. Compare what you pay in school taxes to the average private school tuition and you come up quite short.
March 25, 2009 at 9:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ysillyme (anonymous) says...
Major~
Vouchers would by "natural selection" allow students to learn and socialize together rather than be forced into uncomfortable selected venues established by CCSD. To some this segregation would appear to be a step backward, but it would accomplish your goal of educating the students and the detractors be damned. To the white and black students who would choose the same school I would expect to see the same progress.
March 25, 2009 at 9:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
regulardude (anonymous) says...
ysillyme - You need to have your substitute card REVOKED if those are your true views on the diversity of classrooms. Im a black man that graduated from wando in 1996. Wando has long been an achieving school with a diverse student population. There werent any killings or students saying I don't want to sit in a classroom with a white or black student. Adults such as yourself teach children racism.
Color plays a very small role in a child's behavior. My experience as an educator has taught me that social classes and parent involvement play a much larger role in the behavior of a student. Segregated schools will set this country back another 200 years.
Are you suppose to attend segragated schools for 12 maybe 16 years of your life and then be thrown into a world that is not. Your post disgust me.
March 25, 2009 at 9:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
wjh,"If private schools solved Charleston's economic and educational problems, Charleston would be doing very well. In fact they aggravate our historic problems and vouchers at any level the state can afford wont fix that either."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That may or may not be the case.
Many seems to think that the SC school system is at fault for producing a poorly educated product and not the parents or the students.
Maybe we should be thankful that there are some private schools. At least that guarantees some properly educated people in the state.
My granddaughter went to private school and is now a straight A student at Charleston Southern.
The cost per student to teach her was far below that currently spent in the public school system yet the results were superior. If money is the solution how can that be?
Parents who support the public schools through taxes and bear the additional cost of paying a private school to give their child a decent education really get screwed.
Maybe a totally private school system with it's lower operating expense and markedly better results is the way to go.
I'm sure some provision could be made to assist those unable to afford private school. Many of the people who cannot afford private school still pay taxes to support the poor quality schools their children now must attend.
This would at least ensure that they are getting some value in return for the taxes they are forfeiting.
March 25, 2009 at 10:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ysillyme (anonymous) says...
Regulardude~
Shucks, didn't mean to offend you with the truth. You are the exception to the rule though. Students will self segregate themselves in cafeterias, study halls, and recreation periods. Set back 200 years???Grow up and look around, suburbs also self segregate ( EXCEPT WHEN SECTION 8 COMES CALLING) so get over yourself. For 2 generations we have fled the city, explain that one regulardude.
March 25, 2009 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BornSouthernDieSouthern (anonymous) says...
Tuition Assistance Programs are available to assist families that otherwise could not afford to send their children to private schools. Why is this not known to many people?
March 25, 2009 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
regulardude (anonymous) says...
Ysillyme - I wasnt the only black student at Wando that graduated in 1996. So your exception theory is inaccurate. As a matter of fact I wasnt the only black student that graduated from an integrated school in 1996, or today.
ysillyme -"For 2 generations we have fled the city, explain that one regulardude."
You have fled the city, and now what?! Is charleston number 1 on the best places to live in America list. Hell no! Segration didn't work when it was law and will not work now. Everyday Black, White, Hispanic, Asian, and Indian children interact with each other in classrooms. And guess what, they don't always kill each other or refuse to be seated next to one another. And oh yeah, I was raised in harbogate shores (integrated neighborhood). We WERE NOT on section 8 or ever have been. The same can be said for the countless other black families that lived in the neighborhood during my childhood.
If you really believe children become better people on a whole by segrating themselves, your are living in la la land, and need to take your own advice on growing up. Maybe you should segregate from society so that an innocent student will never have you in their classroom.
March 25, 2009 at 10:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bettered4sc (anonymous) says...
ysillyme - Your ignorance astounds me. That a bigget like you were allowed to substitute teach saddens me and also provides one more sad example of why SC schools are failing their students. Vouchers for schools will not help SC. What happens to a child that was moved to a higher performing school? Are they so far behind their peers that they get discouraged or are they playing catch up throughout their school years? What happens to the children who stay behind? Are they the unfortunate that we just wash our hands of and push into already heavily burdened social programs? Parents need to play a bigger role in their children's education but if they do not know how what can we really expect from them? We all need to embrace these children...they are the future of SC.
March 25, 2009 at 10:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SCdeacinNYC (anonymous) says...
Besides the fact that I think that Ford is a complete idiot, and I generally don't like this whole "which is better" debate.
As someone mentioned earlier, there is no evidence to prove that private/public schools in SC are better than public schools. My instinct (unsupported by any real evidence because there is none) is that with few exception of private and public schools, there isn't really much difference. The thing is private schools themselves are on a spectrum. There are the random "Christian" schools and then there are the preparatory schools. They all vary in price and level of academic achievement. I've known people that went to all different sorts of private schools in South Carolina, some have gone on to do great things, some never made it to college or dropped out. It's the EXACT same deal with public schools on average. I went to an OK public school. Like the private schools in the area, the top performing students went on (for the most part) to state schools in SC, Clemson, USC, CofC, a few went out of state (like I did) and most graduated on time and went on to grad schools or successful careers. Here in New York, there's a huge difference in some respects. Parochial schools are often no different than public schools, but kids that go to the high-class prep school are public specialized schools are at a huge advantage.
I can't imagine sending my kids to a private school, unless I had no other option. I find it hard to believe that if your kid is an attentive, well-behaved, at-least average student you won't be able to find some sort of public school that suits their needs. When my sister and I were younger the middle and high schools in our neighborhood were sub-par. My parents banded together with a few other parents in the area to send us to a better neighboring school and I'm glad they did.
Our public school system needs to be fixed. People often say it's over-funded. I have to dispute that a bit, yes, sometimes throwing money at the problem isn't the answer. Many schools materially have everything they need, but not the performance to match. However, when I see the cost-per-pupil, especially in larger cities, it's often more tied up in admin costs rather than what actually gets to the student. There are lots of things wrong with the education system here, it needs to be reformed, school boards need be abolished, the charter school method can be expanded, et cetera, but I don't think it's unfixable. It certainly doesn't help that people have an antagonistic attitude towards a system that's educated most of the people in this country. Labeling them "government" schools and denigrating them doesn't change the fact that our country will continue to depend on this system to educate the next generation. That's not going to change.
March 25, 2009 at 10:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SCdeacinNYC (anonymous) says...
"Parochial schools are often no different than public schools, but kids that go to the high-class prep school are public specialized schools are at a huge advantage"
Ugh, that should say, ..."but kids that go the high-class prep schools or public specialized schools are at a huge advantage."
March 25, 2009 at 10:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
letsgab (anonymous) says...
ysillyme - Your posts are ridiculous. I truly hope that you are never a substitute teacher in one of my children's classrooms. I am a white woman who graduated from Summerville in 1996 and I never felt the need to "self segregate". I had friends of all races and colors. You should stop posting nonsense because that's what it is.
We should definitely not take money out of our public education system. Parents and students need to be more accountable.
March 25, 2009 at 10:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
I've spent a lot of time at Orange Grove Elementary, James B. Edwards elementary, Moultrie and Wando. I don't see proof that the students are "self segregated" today. There is a certain amount of group identification, however their friends aren't limited to their racial group. Various other social identifications seem much more important and those are quite dynamic. Frankly, at the High School level, I can't sort them out but the circles of friends at Wando are clear enough to my son who goes there. It's much more complex than the geeks, jocks, nerds and popular kids of my day.
Each group seems to be organized around a few core personalities and they compete for social affiliation and influence. The groups reform, disband and recombine based on social events, some of which I can't pretend to detect. It's clearly competitive behavior and the girls dominate the dynamic.
I guess this generation sees less value in a black vs. white dynamic. Racism doesn't really advance their subtle, complex social agendas.
March 25, 2009 at 11:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
He will be our next governor, the blacks who are on public assistance will see to that. I know a racist comment but only because Ford is racist and he does not deserve my respect.
***********************************************
Jerk!
March 25, 2009 at 11:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
Imagine what would happen if you had tigers and antelope in the same confines at the zoo; chaos surely would ensue. So long as we force white and children of color to attend the same schools we are inviting failure and chaos. As a former substitute teacher I can assure you black children do not want to attend classes w/ white children any more than vice versa. Vouchers would allow parents to decide what is best for the students, and granted it may lead to segreagated schools BUT our school system would improve.
**********************************************
Jerk number 2!
March 25, 2009 at 11:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
Posted by ysillyme on March 25, 2009 at 10:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Regulardude~
Shucks, didn't mean to offend you with the truth. You are the exception to the rule though. Students will self segregate themselves in cafeterias, study halls, and recreation periods. Set back 200 years???Grow up and look around, suburbs also self segregate ( EXCEPT WHEN SECTION 8 COMES CALLING) so get over yourself. For 2 generations we have fled the city, explain that one regulardude.
**************************************************
BIGGEST JERK EVER!
March 25, 2009 at 11:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eyfigueroa (anonymous) says...
According to ysilly Blacks that live in Crowfield and Westcott are on Section 8.
According to ysilly if a Black kid graduates from a 'good' school then he/she is an anomaly.
According to ysilly ALL the government school system needs to do is segregate by race instead of gender and voila! the system is saved!
According to ysilly if Black and White students CHOOSE to attend the same schools the results would be the same
***********************************
I and neither of my friends and family who live in various subdivisions (from blue-collar to Daniel Island) are on Section 8. Sorry to disappoint you. According to my family it so sucks to live in the Hamlets, Daniel Island, I'On and Westcott. I'm here to tell you that living on the golf course is the worst!!!!
When my daughter walked across the stage last June, there were many kids of varying shades of 'color' who did so as well. Wow, that was sure a lot of exceptions to your rule.
Your ridiculous generalizations are the just that rigotdamndiculous.
What we have is a failing government school system overburdened by top-heavy administration, lack of parental involvement and an apathetic public who only seek to READ & COMPLAIN about the school system as opposed to volunteering to help those kids whose family life isn't conducive to academic success.
In this area it happens to be Blacks and Hispanics that are most of the statistics. However I lived in Kentucky and Tennessee and it was 90% Whites who were doing poorly in schools. Conversely in tony Atlanta suburbs (such as Buckhead) Blacks lead the way in high school & college graduation rates.
Why are White girls/boys failing in Western Kentucky and Blacks doing well in suburban Atlanta?
Socio-economic factors, parental involvement or lack thereof and I'm sure a host of other reasons.
My point is ysilly loves to set the tone for racial separatism. His only contribution to these forums is to remind us of how intellectually inferior people of color are to those who are White. Which by the way I find particularly amusing, especially since he is quick to offer excuses as to why a celebrated Black brain surgeon such as Dr. Ben Carson is an 'anomaly'.
March 25, 2009 at 11:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Posted by SCdeacinNYC on March 25, 2009 at 10:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I find it hard to believe that if your kid is an attentive, well-behaved, at-least average student you won't be able to find some sort of public school that suits their needs.
But that is just the problem. Except in rare situations, you are not ALLOWED to FIND a public school, it is mandated by your address where you must send your kids, regardless of the quality, or lack thereof, of the public school. The schools know this and know they do not have to compete with each other. Performance is meaningless.
March 25, 2009 at 12:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
Vote buying at its finest.
March 25, 2009 at 12:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amhsmom (anonymous) says...
The No Child Left Behind Act allows any student to transfer to any school they choose if their school is failing. Also parents will request different schools for their children all the time, and these requests are granted on a regular basis. In fact, at one point, Mount pleasant academy's numbers were low and they needed more students that it was common for requests to be granted. The problem is that the parents have to put the paperwork in. They have to know the rules and how to work the system or at least be able to dial a telephone and speak. parents also have the choice to live whereever they want to, and i mean that. If you want to go to school at Mount Pleasant Academy and you think you need section 8 housing, it is available here. There's affordable housing and apartments surrounding most of the schools. Parents have to be proactive in their child's education. That's what makes "Public" education work. You can see from my name, that I knew how to make a choice and fill out an application. Prior to the high school years, i also decided i wanted my kids to walk to school so i moved to where this could happen. Most of my friends will choose where they are going to live, based upon the school district. And if you can't live there, then like I said before, make a request. Parents are in charge of their children's education.
March 25, 2009 at 12:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
regulardude (anonymous) says...
We can use small medias just like this one to inform parents of their options.
March 25, 2009 at 12:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charlieandlola (anonymous) says...
This is to ysillyme
You are a racist and a bigot, plain and simple. I am ashamed that there MIGHT be people that think this way, in this day and age, but I know in my heart that you are in the minority. If you were teaching my children - I'd have them transferred from your class and petition to have your teaching certificate removed. Then I might ask you to go have a chat outback. You should be ashamed of yourself, God knows I am
March 25, 2009 at 12:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mosinfan (anonymous) says...
All the posts on here that assert that their is no difference between the graduates produced by public versus private schoold need to have their heads examined.
The SAT scores tell a much different story. Private schools and Homeschools are by far out performing the public schools on average. Not to mention graduation rates which would be no comparison.
These folks like to keep telling themselves that so that they can feel better about the dung heap that makes up our public education system. Our public education system generally speaking is designed to conduct social experimentation and create a non thinking, government drone who knows very little about how his government is supposed to work.
Dont believe this? Find a public high schooler or recent public high school graduate and ask them a few questions...What are the three branches of government? How is the system of Checks and Balances supposed to work? What part of the government is the only part that is supposed to make law? What part enforces the law, what part checks the law?
Scary when you think that these folks get to vote...
March 25, 2009 at 12:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amhsmom (anonymous) says...
I would beg to differ, and when not all can afford a private education even with vouchers, then all we have is to support our public education. Although I do not know the actual statistics, I would have to say that wando high school puts out a rather fine class of college students and the same is true with Academic Magnet, along with west Ashley high school and James island High, too. Not all people are going to be Harvard law graduates. Some have to be High School teachers, small business men, accountants, retail managers and local government and hospital workers. The public education system can work. The biggest problem with charleston county schools is that the county is too big for one management system. As is true that small schools work, smaller, town-run school systems with more accountability and easier to handle budgets work better too. I've always said raise the property taxes. Most states with good school systems have way higher property taxes. They are tax deductible anyways. Look where we are now, depending on sales tax income which fluctuates. How can one oversee a fluctuating income for our children who need good, clean, healthy schools in safe enviornments with quality teachers. I must say also that Public schools require more teacher credentialing than private schools. So it all boils down to money. My children can answer your questions, because I as a parent, make them study and maintain a certain average. Raising and educating kids is completely up to the parent regardless of socioeconomic class. Vouchers for failing schools will not work anyways, because the absentee parents won't know how to use them and where to put their children and how to transport them there if they can't manage their children in their neighborhood schools. I'm for adequately funding our public schools and quickly before it's too late. I'm glad I am almost done..It's been a long fight
March 25, 2009 at 1:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...
There are a couple of reason why private schools out perform public schools, but the main reason is that private schools do not have the dilemma of educating the masses.
But anyways here are the reasons broken down...
Private schools can be picky at whom they take in, public schools can not. It is much easier for a private school to kick out incorrigible students, under performing student, ECT.
Parental involvement is much getter in private schools, but then again, if you are paying a bunch of money into school, your child's academic achievement would be much more monitored.
On average, the class size in private schools is much less than of that of public schools.
The teachers' employment is more competitive in private schools, also many teachers do not have to deal with the same kind of "riff raff" that they would in many public schools, because of the above reasons.
Yet, we do still have school choice and private schools are an option. If you want your child to go to private school and you can not afford it, you should push your kid enough for them to get a scholarship. It is doubtful that a voucher system would lessen the cost of private schools. If private schools received vouchers, all it would do is raise the tuition in order to keep the masses out. There is no way the government can give money to the private school system without taking money away from the public school system. This is the last thing that needs to happen in this State. Besides private schools are a business, they are there to make money, public schools are not.
I agree with Gator when he said that "Voting buying at its finest". Anyways, vouchers are a horrible idea for most of SC's population and lastly Ford is an idiot.
March 25, 2009 at 2:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eyfigueroa (anonymous) says...
"But that is just the problem. Except in rare situations, you are not ALLOWED to FIND a public school, it is mandated by your address where you must send your kids, regardless of the quality, or lack thereof, of the public school. The schools know this and know they do not have to compete with each other. Performance is meaningless."
greyrider, you are spot on!
March 25, 2009 at 2:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mosinfan (anonymous) says...
First of all lets get the facts straight...the bill does not provide a "voucher" it provides a tax credit. I would usually be the last guy to back a Robert Ford proposal but the guy has got this one right whatever his motives are.
Those of you making the argument about taking away money from the public schools need to look at the facts first, then think this through...its not hard.
Fact: The public school system in SC spends right at $11,400 per student.
If this bill gives a 2-5K tax credit for the students family to use to help offset the cost of a private school in the area then all that does is takes that amount away from the school, thus costing the state less money overall.
March 25, 2009 at 2:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SCdeacinNYC (anonymous) says...
But that is just the problem. Except in rare situations, you are not ALLOWED to FIND a public school, it is mandated by your address where you must send your kids, regardless of the quality, or lack thereof, of the public school. The schools know this and know they do not have to compete with each other. Performance is meaningless."
Well maybe it is different nowadays. But it wasn't THAT long ago when I graduated from high school in Berkeley County and then you could send your kid to another school. I'm not sure the processes my parents too, but we were able to enroll in another school, within our district, that was better. Perhaps it was just a Berkeley district thing, or maybe the rules have changed but we were definitely able to legally leave our school and attend another one within the district and we weren't the only ones. It still happens today.
Also, what exactly is the purpose of NCLB then..?? I thought part of it was the ability to transfer your kids out a failing school...I wasn't a huge fan of it but I liked THAT part of it.
March 25, 2009 at 3:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
Posted by mosinfan on March 25, 2009 at 12:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"All the posts on here that assert that their is no difference between the graduates produced by public versus private schoold need to have their heads examined."
"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""
You are right as rain!
GuidedbyStupidity;
Just to refresh you failing memory, I have inserted the last few lines from my post in yesterday's Cigarette Tax increase article,in response to your silly comment directed at me.
+ + + + + + + + + +
I have been pretty clear in what I think is going to be happening as this administration incrementally destroys our country.
Now instead of telling me I don't know what I'm talking about, suppose you tell me and others just what wonderful things you think are going to result from the fiscally destructive practices emanating from Washington.
(Lots of luck with that one)
That is of course if you can get through one sentence without blaming "everything" on Bush!
March 25, 2009 at 3:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
geekboy (anonymous) says...
Posted by UrGatorbait on March 25, 2009 at 12:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Vote buying at its finest.
***************************************
(I know you didn't mean it to be humorous, but...) LOL!!!
March 25, 2009 at 3:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
letsgab (anonymous) says...
$11,400 per student??? Which public school system is that? I can tell you that Dorchester 2 does not have that much to spend for each student...Remember that all school districts do not receive the same amount of money. Poorer schools receive more money based on different allocations.
March 25, 2009 at 3:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
letsgab (anonymous) says...
$11,400 per student??? Which public school system is that? I can tell you that Dorchester 2 does not have that much to spend for each student...Remember that all school districts do not receive the same amount of money. Some receive more money based on different allocations.
March 25, 2009 at 3:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SCdeacinNYC (anonymous) says...
the person who made the point about private and public school performance differing because private schools can be selective is dead-on.
I'm not sure what the SAT score differntials are for private vs. public I wouldn't be surpried if they are significantly higher for private on average, but let's face facts here. On average there are many public schools filled entirely with kids who are below average in basic areas, private schools don't have that. Most of the best private schools test kids before they get in there. In other words, they ONLY take the best and brightest. Which is their prerogative. But comparing them on that basis would be the same as comparing a magnet school to a regular public school. There is no contest, one exists for the purpose of academic excellence another educates EVERYONE, not just those who are going on to college or should be.
Furthermore if you stack up the top public schools in this state to the top private schools there may be no difference and actually you might see (due to certain magnet schools) public schools coming out on top. I read an article from a California newspaper that came to the same conclusion. It all depends on what school you go to. However where I went for undergrad, at a private liberal arts school in the South, most people I knew (by a slim margin) went to public school for high school and not all of them went to magnet schools or those ridiculous schools listed in the top 10 nationwide. Some just went to regular schools. My point is, I guess, that it's a hard argument to make if you don't take into account that it's hard to compare apples and oranges.
March 25, 2009 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
regulardude (anonymous) says...
Ford should wear a hat when taking profile pics. His head is a bit glossy.
March 25, 2009 at 4:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...
Yes tird, I read the post this morning; I found it completely laughable, truth? What truth? All I saw was opinionated refuse.
Sure, I am concerned about the mounting debt. I feel that Obama trying to do too much at once, yet Obama isn't the one that got us into this mess (nope it was not just Bush's fault, but his administration did not help things much), and it is not going to painless getting out of it.
Yet, I find it SOOOO ironic when now the republicans are going so GAGA over the debt, when they did not seem so concerned about it when either two Bush's or Reagan was in office.
Sorry guys about going off the subject but tird warranted a response.
March 25, 2009 at 4:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
We have a lot of options for school choice in Charleston County. We have half a dozen Magnet Programs, about half a dozen Charter Schools and No Child Left Behind Transfers for anyone whose child attends a "failing school." Divorced parents have two residences and it's perfectly ordinary for the children to live with one parent and attend school in the other parent's district under a "joint custody" agreement.
There are busloads of kids attending Wando on No Child Left Behind Transfers, some from as far away as Hollywood. They roll in every morning.
At this point, just about any motivated Parent should be able to find options.
March 25, 2009 at 4:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
now_here_this (anonymous) says...
I wonder why we don't hear an outcry from the private schools to provide tax credits or vouchers or whatever.
So, I'm a poor kid from downtown or North Charleston. I'm starting 9th grade and have a 5th grade reading level. I have a police record and a history of disruptive behavior in middle school. I'll just show up at Poter-Gaud with my voucher and enroll. Problem solved!
March 25, 2009 at 4:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Nochaseboy (anonymous) says...
I was in Stall High in 1969-1970,I was sent to Bonds Wilson in 1970,due to desegragation.It was aweful,the blacks were like animals.They didn't want us there ,no more than we as whites wanted to be there.All of the trouble was on their part.I quit the next year.I've worked hard for what I have and have done well.
I put my son's in public shcools here in Virgina.Only to see the same crap.I took them out and went private.Now that they,'blacks" have totally ruined public schools,they want to ruin private schools and with tax dollars.
There was once a commercial that said don't teach your kids to be prejudice and they might not learn to be.I didn't teach this to my son's,they learned it from BLACKS.
March 25, 2009 at 5:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
regulardude (anonymous) says...
Nochaseboy - Nice try. Have a good life jerkoff.
March 25, 2009 at 6:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chilldiesel83 (anonymous) says...
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I did a research paper back in college and something like 65% of private school teachers do not have masters in teaching nor are they national school board certified. The numbers are the complete opposite for public schools. Reason being, many private schools do not even require teaching degrees as does the state supported schools. This is not a blanket statement as there are many private schools that have tenured teachers just like public, however the differences that exist should be recognized and pondered over a bit. But then again, no law will ever make everyone happy, so I guess you could say that every vote is always the selection of the lesser of two evils. What a world, what a world, what a world...
March 25, 2009 at 6:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cosmotwo (anonymous) says...
Just another politican on the take. He is doing what is right for him, not the children of SC. He needs to go!
March 25, 2009 at 8:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CNN_10 (anonymous) says...
Nochaseboy really man come on with the racist statements.
March 25, 2009 at 9:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
barracho (anonymous) says...
Axe Robert Ford to spell "school". You'll be amazed.
March 25, 2009 at 9:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MyMcClellanville (anonymous) says...
I support Ford's initiative and it can make a difference as you'll see here - http://mymcclellanville.net/2009/03/2...
March 31, 2009 at 8:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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