Confederate holiday getting another look
DORCHESTER — We're going to war, Sons of Confederate Veterans member Dickie Phalen had said half-teasing. But this time, the war was as civil as the wounds are raw.
About a dozen local chapter members of the SCV and United Daughters of the Confederacy and supporters showed up Tuesday night at the Dorchester District 4 board meeting to protest that students are not given a holiday on Confederate Memorial Day.
It was another offensive in a campaign that last year brought more than 20 supporters out to the board meeting.
Group members say it's a matter of heritage and teaching history. But it rubs against racial tensions that still flare in another legacy from that time, over controversies like removing the Confederate battle flag from the Statehouse.
Three SCV members spoke, two who came from Summerville and Ridgeland "camps," or chapters, to support the local camp. Only one wore any insignia, a commander's badge on a suit pocket.
"All we are asking is to celebrate a state holiday on May 10," said Phalen, of the local SCV chapter.
The room sat still. Board members listened quietly or scribbled quietly. When the speakers were done, Kenneth Jenkins, board chairman, pointedly asked Peggy Phalen, Dickie's mother, if the career school where she is a board member had put the holiday on its calendar.
It had not.
Few school districts in the state observe the holiday, even though the state has recognized it. In the three counties around Charleston, only Berkeley's school district has observed it.
The SCV and other heritage groups have pushed to change that. But the issue is volatile enough that when an SCV member earlier this month asked the Berkeley board to observe the holiday this year, even though the date falls on a weekend, a black school board member characterized it as a slap in the face.
Dorchester 4 runs public schools in the rural northern end of the county. It's a place of practicalities: The board meeting Monday was held in the Harleyville-Ridgeville Elementary School library and the Pledge of Allegiance was led by two of the school's students.
The district has nearly 3,000 students and two of every three are black. Three of its five board members are black.
The council's divide on the holiday in 2008 broke on racial lines. But individual board members don't completely agree, maybe even with themselves, on this one. Last year, the board said it would look into establishing the holiday, working with Summerville's Dorchester District 2, Jenkins said. That district doesn't observe the holiday.
This year, board member Cheryl Mushrush, who is white, made a motion that died for lack of a second. Jenkins said the May 10 date conflicts with testing.
But James Hodges, who is black, said, "I think we can resolve this." He asked the calendar committee to see if there's a date that could be agreed on. The question will be decided at a special meeting within two weeks.
"I hate to say it, but it basically boils down to reverse discrimination. Everybody who was our ancestor should be honored, especially those who fought and died gallantly for a cause they believed in," Dickie Phalen had said before the meeting.
He came away encouraged.
"As long as we get it in May and it's a public holiday, that's great," he said.
E-mail this story
Printer-friendly version
Comments
CedarPosts (anonymous) says...
I'm glad I stayed up long enough to make this post before the tolls, crawl out from under their rocks and turn this into a racist rant, or before someone starts the less than intelligent "You people lost the war, get over it" dialogue.
Confederate Memorial Day should be recognized and May 10th each year is as good as any date, but as far as closing schools and making it a paid holiday for state employees well, my granddaddy and his father before him would flipout.
In the generations before all this politically correct extremism swept the country there was only one day off a week and that was Sunday. It wasn't a paid holiday but it was always a day filled with riches as well as a day for remembrance.
Somewhere amoung the years we have lost our way, so if we really want to honor those who fought for the cause we need to honor their heritage of hard work and remember the only day of rest they ever needed was Sunday.
More common sense and southern thinking at: http://cedarposts.blogspot.com
March 18, 2009 at 1:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
watchdog (anonymous) says...
We are last in education in a country that is 39th in the world, and all that you idiots out there can think of is a Confederate holiday? Get a life!!! That war was wrong and immoral, move forward. I am tired of my state being in last place.
March 18, 2009 at 5:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Slick50 (anonymous) says...
AMEN.
March 18, 2009 at 5:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lowcountrymouth (anonymous) says...
We not only should be honoring these men as great patriots, but with the current illegitimate usurper acting as president, maybe we should be emulating them.
They were standing up against an out of control, power hungry federal government. Considering the fact that we now have power hungry megalomaniac acting president who is reminiscent of Adolph Hitler who has spent 1 trillion dollars of our money to take control of banks, insurance companies and other private business, the example these brave men have given us looks better and better every day. . .
March 18, 2009 at 5:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
EqualityB4theLawThinkAgain (anonymous) says...
The deal to have a Martin Luther King Jr. Holiday was predicated on giving a Confederate Memorial Day Holiday. Politicians keep your promise. If there is not going to be a Confederate Memorial Day Holiday, then the Martin Luther King, Jr. Holiday should be canceled too. I hope the Sons and Daughters of the Confederacy bring a law suit against the State to enforce the holiday.
March 18, 2009 at 5:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
moonpie (anonymous) says...
Makes us look even ,more like idots. Doesn't Dorchester county have some educational things to consider?
Though I would agree if it was part of some back room dealings to get a MLK day then so be it. Call them out and make them hold to it. Lets go for white history month and a white only expo too while were at it! We will be the minority real soon. I can hardly wait!
March 18, 2009 at 6:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
now_here_this (anonymous) says...
If the SCV wants to teach their heritage, why are they going the "day-off-and-a-sale-at-Wal-Mart" route a la President's Day? If you want to teach, TEACH! Offer to go to the schools as guest speakers in full uniform. Put on mini re-enactments on the football field. Encourage teachers to develop cross-curricular lessons based around the Civil War while offering your assistance with materials and expertise. Be proactive, not pro publicity.
March 18, 2009 at 7:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mb300sl (anonymous) says...
Let the liberal ranting begin! Praise the Obamessiah! Where is my stimulus bonus? GEEEZZZ...
March 18, 2009 at 7:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
YankeeLiberal (anonymous) says...
SCV folks, why are you not pressing your case in large school districts, why just the small rural ones? Are you betting (hoping) on a less progressive audience?
March 18, 2009 at 7:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
YankeeLiberal (anonymous) says...
And LowCountryMouth, "illegitimate usurper" wtf is that all about? My wife and I voted for the guy fair and square, so deal with it. Sorry to say, but you do sound racist, as if the notion of a mixed race man running the country (with his family in the white house, can you believe it?) just really makes you and your ilk's skin crawl!! It appears more obvious than you think.
March 18, 2009 at 7:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mac0cm4 (anonymous) says...
You'd think or hope that Dorchester County would have better stuff to concern themselves with. Like ensuring that their schools don't suck instead of some holiday.
If they do choose to 'honor' it - it certainly shouldn't be a day off.
March 18, 2009 at 7:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
We have a day to honor American heroes. It is Memorial Day. I think that among that group are Americans of every race, sex, creed, and political persuasion. Seems like that is enough to rally around for me.
March 18, 2009 at 7:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ccfirefighterchick (anonymous) says...
So, we have a day to honor Martin Luther King, and a whole month to honor black history. Why is there such an uproar over one day to honor the men (and women) that fought for what they believed? Why is it that we should back down and have black history thrown in our faces for a whole month, but nobody is willing to support one day to honor those that fought and died for what they believe?
March 18, 2009 at 7:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
Posted by YankeeLiberal on March 18, 2009 at 7:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
And LowCountryMouth, "illegitimate usurper" wtf is that all about? My wife and I voted for the guy fair and square, so deal with it. Sorry to say, but you do sound racist, as if the notion of a mixed race man running the country (with his family in the white house, can you believe it?) just really makes you and your ilk's skin crawl!! It appears more obvious than you think.
&&&&&&&&&+++++++++&&&&&&&&&&
Leave it to a leftist loony to make accusations of racism.
What really makes people of my "ilks skin crawl" is the slavish Pavlovian devotion to the impostor in chief by these dummies who were so easily taken in by the dog and pony show put on by Obama and his handlers.
So, because an ignoramus and his wife were dumb enough to vote for a Sorros controlled puppet and now realize it they have to lash out with accusations of racism at everyone who says anything negative about the buffoon in the white. house.
Yankee Liberals rate no say in the discussion about weather or not Southerners should or should not honor their heritage.
Reconstruction is over as far as we are concerned, Maybe it's high time the carpetbaggers figured that out also.
March 18, 2009 at 7:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
We have Memorial Day and Veterans Day already. We don't need another day to honor soldiers who served and fell in every specific war. More importantly, we really don't need a holiday honoring troops who tried to destroy our great nation and forever prop up the institution of slavery.
And yes, before anyone gets deluded about other issues like taxes and states' rights, slavery was a significant issue in the Civil War. The Cornerstone Speech by Confederate vice president Alexander Stephens laid out pretty plainly that the Confederate government was dedicated to upholding the institution of slavery and the "truth" of white superiority over blacks.
Lowcountrymouth, I'm going to have to invoke Godwin's Law. If your point is so poorly conceived and you are so poorly equipped to make it that you have to resort to playing the Hitler card, you have failed, and in this case on an epic level. Obama is your president now, so deal with it; or, as the ultra-conservatives were so fond of telling people who criticized the Bush administration - if you don't like it, leave.
Ccfirefighterchick, Martin Luther King, Jr. contributed a great deal to this country, and even though he did not serve in the armed forces he put himself in danger routinely and died to further the cause of universal equality in law and society for all men and women of this country. He deserves his own day, and all of us - black, white, whatever - should recognize his accomplishments and be grateful and respectful. Black History month accomplishes another goal, of recognizing the accomplishments of an entire race of people who have been marginalized until the last few decades. Almost everyone can recognize the significance of what soldiers do in war, and we are already given two days out of the year to contemplate it further, but in all fairness black contributions to the history of this nation go largely ignored.
March 18, 2009 at 8 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Yird, the Civil War is over. Isn't it about time people here stopped trying to fight it?
March 18, 2009 at 8:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
badplf (anonymous) says...
this is why i hate SC sometimes. it's one thing to learn from the past, it's another to be so obcessed by it that you can't move forward.
if betting wasn't illegal in this state, i'd wager that within the next five posts, someone is going to tell me to 'go back where i came from.'
March 18, 2009 at 8:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
Posted by ltgrunt on March 18, 2009 at 8:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Yird, the Civil War is over. Isn't it about time people here stopped trying to fight it?
I agree, and when northerners stop acting like an occupation force trying to undermine or destroy all vestiges of southern history and forcing their progressive ideology on the south then and only then will the resentment fade.
And as far as slavery being the determining factor in the uncivil war, that makes about as much sense as saying that genocide against the Jews was the reason Hitler invaded Poland kicking off WWII.
Now I suppose that will illicit a five paragraph response.
Ho Hum!
March 18, 2009 at 8:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
badplf, bets off, go back where you came from.
March 18, 2009 at 8:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
abitskeptical (anonymous) says...
Regardless of the issue, the states at that time had a right to secede from the union. Plain & simple. It WAS over state's rights.
Pretending that the the issue of states' rights & the issue of slavery were one & the same thing does not & has never, helped in the understanding of the history of the country & states at that time.
Most everyone agrees(or should agree) that slavery more than wrong-it is evil & as such its practice is a shameful part of the history of this country(& not just the Southern states).
However, the idea that all Lincoln cared about was the plight of the poor slaves is disingenuous. Read everything about the man & what he thought of dark skinned people from Africa. (Hint-it wasn't much)
Until the emotional (& justified I will add) outrage over slavery can be separated from the political & historical facts of that time, none of us-white, black & in between will fully grasp what was really happening & the motives of the people in the midst of those times.
March 18, 2009 at 8:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
badplf (anonymous) says...
Yes!!
by the way, i was born in NC, grew up in GA and have lived in Chas for 25 years.
March 18, 2009 at 8:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WinthropEagleFan (anonymous) says...
I can't say I understand the, "Hey, if we get to have MLK day as a holiday, we should have Confederate Memorial Day as a holiday" argument. What does one have to do with the other? I just don't see the correlation.
From my personal point of view, I agree with the people that say we already have a Memorial Day anyway, so why should there be a seperate one for a particular war? But even so, if people want the holiday, so be it, but I just don't get why MLK day is always brought up when Confederate Memorial Day is...
March 18, 2009 at 8:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
These posts are EXACTLY WHY the SCV is pushing this. There is an old joke among historians that if you took 100 people from 100 different countries, and gave them a test on American History, its a guarantee that the American would finish dead last. Don't kid yourself, children in American public schools are NOT being taught American History.
Answer these questions, if you dare
Is SELLING slaves wrong? or just OWNING them?
Is it wrong to exploit slave labor to make millions?
Was it wrong for lobby groups to lobby Washington in the 19th century to keep slavery legal?
99% of slaves were brought here and sold by slave trading companies from New York and Rhode Island.
No one made more money off slavery (including the slaveowners) than the New England-based textile barons.
The Boston Associates were THE lobby group that tirelessly fought to keep slavery legal.
March 18, 2009 at 9:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
WinthropEagleFan: Interesting points.
I never met Dr King but i did sit in on a number of meetings with his successor Ralph David Abernathy as well as Andrew Young, Reverend Orange and other members of SCLC and they were not exactly the epitome of integrity and morality.
Speaking only for myself, I judge others by the company they keep so even though King was instrumental in creating much good it's doubtful he was the sanctimonious icon that he is made out to be.
That one man should have so much attention and adoration afforded him begs the question of suspicion of a hidden agenda or motive.
Maybe many southerners resent the fact that King represents the symbolic head of a movement that is trying to destroy everything southern regardless of weather or not it had anything at all to do with slavery.
The battle flag, and the song Dixie are of course the embodiment of evil.
Robert E. Lees' birthday and confederate memorial day are considered divisive.
Who knows what will next be considered unacceptable in the eyes of the revisionists, cotton, grits?
March 18, 2009 at 9:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Truth matters
March 18, 2009 at 9:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
USC_Alumni (anonymous) says...
What can be said that hasn't been said before?
South Carolina the laughing stock.
March 18, 2009 at 9:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
americanheretic (anonymous) says...
YOU LOST!
March 18, 2009 at 9:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
I'll bet I don't get an intelligent response to this all day.
If the war was over slavery, and the Union believed in the equality of the races, why did the Union Army go out west immediately following the war and commit genocide against the Native Americans, especially slaughtering women and children?
March 18, 2009 at 9:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Make the holiday fall on a weekend every year so government and schools don't have to close. As a matter of fact, move all holidays to weekends and quit closing government and schools for any holidays. That's ridiculous to begin with, especially closing for holidays that fell over a weekend. Thank the unions for that one. It's all about getting paid not to work.
March 18, 2009 at 9:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
geekboy (anonymous) says...
Posted by USC_Alumni on March 18, 2009 at 9:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
What can be said that hasn't been said before?
South Carolina the laughing stock.
*****************************************
Take 26 to 95. Then take a right or a left and don't stop for at least 4 hours.
March 18, 2009 at 9:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ccfirefighterchick (anonymous) says...
ltgrunt, there are plenty of other races that have been marginalized, as you say it. So, we should have a Native American Month, Hispanic Month, Asian Month, and so on and so forth??? There are many other races in this country than just black and white.
Martin Luther King stood up against a government that was trying to suppress "his people". Sounds an awful lot like what the South did. I still don't believe that he should have his own holiday.
The reason that MLK day is brought up with the Confederate Memorial Day discussion is that it was agreed that if this state gets one, they get both. Now, they are trying to take back one but not give up the other.
March 18, 2009 at 9:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
zekemire (anonymous) says...
TO ALL OF YOU WHO KNOW NO HISTORY EXCEPT THAT SPOUTED BY THE LIBERALS AND THE RACIST GROUPS LIKE THE NAACP! THE WAR WAS NOT IMMORAL! IT WAS NOT ABOUT SLAVERY! IT WAS ABOUT THE ECONOMIC OPPRESSION OF THE SOUTH BY THE NORTH! THE NORTHERN POLITICIANS AND INDUSTRY WOULD NOT ALLOW THE SOUTH TO ACQUIRE THE MACHINERY OR TECHNOLOGY TO PROCESS IT'S AGRICULTURAL ASSETS! THE SOUTH WAS FORCED TO SHIP ALL RAW GOOD NORTH TO BE PROCESSED, COSTING THE SOUTHERN STATES TRMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF MONEY! THAT WAS THE REAL REASON FOR THE WAR! SLAVERY WAS AN AFTERHTOUGHT OF LINCOLN WHEN HE FREED THE "SOUTHERN" SLAVES ONLY ON THE HOPE THEY WOULD REVOLT AND SAVE HIS UNCONSTITUTIONAL ATTACK ON STATES WANTING TO LEAVE THE UNION, WHICH, ACCORDING TO THE FOUNDING DOCUMENTS, ANY STATE DESIRING TO LEAVE THE UNION COULD DO SO AT ANY TIME!!!! THE SOUTH, VASTLY UNDERARMED, VASTLY OUTNUMBERED, WAS KICKING THE UNION ARMY'S BUTT! LINCLON THOUGHT THAT HE COULD CREATE THOUSANDS OF NEW UNION SOLDIERS JUST BY FREEING THE "SOUTHERN" SLAVES! IT DID NOT HAPPEN! HE NEVER FREED THE "NORTHERN" SLAVES! IN FACT, HIS AGENDA WAS TO SHIP ALL THE SLAVES BACK TO AFRICA! DO NOT BELIEVE THIS HISTORICAL INFORMATION! READ THE ACTUAL HISTORY AND NOT THE PERCIEVED HISTORY REWRITTEN TO SUPPORT A POLITICAL AGENDA!
March 18, 2009 at 9:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
iloveohiointhesummer (anonymous) says...
You people lost the war, get over it.
March 18, 2009 at 9:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
Early May is a really bad time for school holidays focused on the Civil War. The schools are in testing, which is a life or death matter for them these days. History classes have finished the Civil War a few months earlier and are well into the 20th. century by then, so you're teaching history outside of it's chronological sequence. If you're going to move the date, Memorial Day, which remembers all Americans who have fought and died for their country, is at the end of the month already. Confederate Veterans were recognized as being American Veterans in the 1950s, which is why they're entitled to VA grave markers.
Certainly there is a need for serious study of the American Civil War, but I don't see how a school holiday in May advances that goal. I've presented school programs about the war over the years as a reenactor. We were always careful to do them in February, when the war was being taught. When I brought maps of the local battlefields and discussed strategy in terms of where the Kmart parking lot was now, the kids were blown away. Most had no idea that battles had been fought in their neighborhoods on James Island. Very little of the James Island battlefields were saved, but there are still places to visit and things to learn.
March 18, 2009 at 9:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
iloveohiointhesummer;
You could love it year round.
March 18, 2009 at 9:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JF (anonymous) says...
Some people apparently just love rding a dead horse. Lets try and move into the 20th century.
March 18, 2009 at 9:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Posted by JF on March 18, 2009 at 9:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Some people apparently just love rding a dead horse. Lets try and move into the 20th century.
The subject of the true causes of the Civil War could not be more relevant. There was an excessive amount of corruption and lust for power in Washington in the mid-19th century. As the saying goes, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
March 18, 2009 at 9:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleston1960 (anonymous) says...
watchdog - there are houses for sale in states that rank higher!
YankeeLib - the orgs are fighting other districts to get legal holidays recognized only they are running into the same type of discrimination too. Educators blocking education - which is why watchdog lives in a low education ranked state
moonpie - when you become the minority you can bank on this - you will not get the same treatment as this. Your agenda will mean nothing.
Now-here-this - they do put on school programs
And yes for many others the roads do go back where you came from.
The bottom line is it is a state holiday not being given to the employees. Because of that many kids cannot attend services with their families to honor their ancestors without being taken out of school and receiving a blemish on their attendance. Yet many kids are force fed black history for a whole month. You hypocritical loons that mouth out 'get over it'. Why is it you cannot say to the crowds slavery is over too 'get over it'
March 18, 2009 at 10:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
counterpoint (anonymous) says...
Finally a debate worth having! Too bad none of the kids can actually _read_ the debate anymore.
March 18, 2009 at 10:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
USC_Alumni (anonymous) says...
Posted by geekboy on March 18, 2009 at 9:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by USC_Alumni on March 18, 2009 at 9:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
What can be said that hasn't been said before?
South Carolina the laughing stock.
*****************************************
Take 26 to 95. Then take a right or a left and don't stop for at least 4 hours.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I did that in 1996 when I left for graduate school, and will never, ever return to live there. The state is just very backward and not forward thinking.
Looking at South Carolina from the outside and as a native South Carolinian; I can see now why major companies and business do not want to locate in South Carolina.
I also can see why South Carolina's neighboring states are head and shoulders above.
Like I said South Carolina use to be the laughing stock of a region, now it's the laughing stock of a nation.
March 18, 2009 at 10:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hobcaw (anonymous) says...
Confederate Memorial Day should be observed just as the traditional Memorial Day (Union Memorial Day) is/was. It is in memory of fallen soldiers who fought for a cause that they believed in. It was not about racism - it was about state's rights ... just because the South lost doesn't mean that the South shouldn't be allowed to honor those who fought to defend the Southern cause.
March 18, 2009 at 10:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleston1960 (anonymous) says...
I did that in 1996 when I left for graduate school, and will never, ever return to live there.
I thought you said you left - your still living here just by being here on this site! But then again you did get a Carolina education!
March 18, 2009 at 10:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
The textile industry that benefited most from American slavery was actually the British textile industry. The American Southeast grew cotton for use in textile industries the world over, not just for the Northeastern US. Basically, the whole world profited from the South's egregious human rights violations.
Charleston1960, kids can attend services with their families to honor their ancestors who have served or who have fallen in battle - Veterans Day and Memorial Day are already set aside for that. There is no good reason to add yet another holiday for the exact same thing. We don't have two Thanksgivings or two Christmases - we don't celebrate the 4th of July twice. What makes an attempt to destroy the United States of America worth its own holiday? If anything, there should be a Union holiday to celebrate the sacrifices that soldiers and civilians who were loyal to the USA made to keep the nation together in the face of an illegal rebellion over one region's desire to subjugate and oppress an entire race of people.
The war was about slavery. Granted, there were tax and states' rights issues intertwined, but the Southern leaders were no more right about those issues than they were about slavery. The people of the South got suckered into believing that the rich landowners and politicians were really acting in their best interests when they attempted secession and led the South to ruin.
Yird, you're making something out of nothing when you try to paint Northerners as an occupying force in modern times. Whatever point you're trying to make, it's getting mangled by your prejudices against people who aren't from around here.
March 18, 2009 at 10:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CedarPosts (anonymous) says...
As I expected!
March 18, 2009 at 10:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
realredneck (anonymous) says...
This proves that my hometown, Charleston, is a bunch of in-bred Southerns who can't get past their faded glory.
I do believe in history but I dont' believe in racism.
This is just angry white-men rant because they can't believe that people, whether they're mixed-race men or funny-looking minority women are way more capable than they are.
March 18, 2009 at 10:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
realredneck, what makes you think everyone who defends the Confederacy is white?
March 18, 2009 at 11:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...
Redneck Holiday! Yeeeeee Hawwwwww!!! Yuck Yuck!
March 18, 2009 at 11:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FBTracy (anonymous) says...
There are soooo many other things for the state of SC to be concerned with .......no wonder that GA and NC are so far ahead in regards to businesses that want to locate there and don't forget education....lol
March 18, 2009 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
ltgrunt,"Yird, you're making something out of nothing when you try to paint Northerners as an occupying force in modern times. Whatever point you're trying to make, it's getting mangled by your prejudices against people who aren't from around here."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
No, it is you who are attempting to make nothing out of something.
My prejudices are not mangled at all. Just look at the condescending attitude of the people from people who "aren't from around here" as they post their anti southern views.
Furthermore, I'm one of those not from around here except for the last 45 years but you will never hear me bad mouth South Carolina, or it's heritage.
This is MY home of choice. I am very comfortable financially and could live anywhere in the country I please but since I made my living as a South Carolina Resident It makes sense to me to enjoy my "golden" (I'm buying gold because Obama is making paper money worthless) years here in the place I love.
So if I take issue with those who trash my home, tough sh!t!
March 18, 2009 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bob80q (anonymous) says...
I concur with many of the above comments. People in SC need to stop with the "heritage" charade and leave all the history of the civil war were it belongs - in a museum. They are just reinforcing the stereotype that southerners are a bunch of ignorant rednecks who wont let go of the past.
March 18, 2009 at 11:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
YankeeLiberal welcome to bigot central. Education is not important in SC. Honoring a day that only a few loudmouth insecure white folks want is what matters in these parts.
Yird, I'm southern and the stupidity that you espouse as "southern thinking" and your "clear" thinking is laughable. Insulting you? but hey you remember, you adopted stupidity, not us, so I guess you should get used to it.
Don't question anything. It's good and easy way to live, gullible and pliable. Got it.
You don't like when folks trash your home and get upset..Ooooooo BFD if it's your home of choice, remember you chose it, it's butt backwards and if you're comfy with that than knock yourself out.
Greyrider adds more substance about number of blacks that "freely" fought for the losing side as justification to prop up the sorry argument for a day off.
zekemere, take a pill.
USC Alumni...I'll be right behind you. They can have this hayseed state. The stupidity and backwardness can paralyze ya.
It's not hate, it's the heritage of hate...
March 18, 2009 at 12:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Those of you who say "get over it", let me ask you a question. If you were watching the news yesterday and a story came on about a scandal from Charleston's past and they accused your grandparents of being serial child molesters (and of course they were innocent), would you say "oh, who cares, they're dead and buried. Why does it matter what people are saying about them?" I don't think so. Think about what the Confederate soldiers are being accused of. They had nothing to gain from slavery being legal. What they are being accused of (defending slavery) is evil. A charge that serious deserves the truth. Truth matters
March 18, 2009 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
coolfreaknbeans (anonymous) says...
Excellent post yird ! I'm so sick of people pointing out that they're not from here and then trashing our state and it's heritage. It's a free country (for now) so if you don't like it, leave. It's pretty simple. It's not hateful, it's common sense. Why stay in a place you absolutely hate and have no respect for?
March 18, 2009 at 12:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
You get all kinds of convoluted history lessons on here.
Fine folks like yird, cedarposts, amongst the folks on here live in the past. Let them stay there so they can become, no, not even footnotes, in history. They are contributors to the problem that keeps jobs and industry out of this state.
March 18, 2009 at 12:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lowcountrymouth (anonymous) says...
LiberalYankee:
It's not about racism. There is significant evidence that he wasn't born here, and no matter how many votes he received, if he wasn't a natural born American, he is and always will be ineligible for the presidency. He has spent over a million dollars on lawyers fees to hide his place of birth. If he was legitimate, then let him produce a valid birth certificate issued at the time of his birth. He hasn't done this yet.
As for race, my favorite candidate currently is Allen Keyes, so it's not about race, it's about character.
March 18, 2009 at 12:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
let's just beat this dead maggoty horse again and again.
March 18, 2009 at 12:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
The Civil War wasn't about slavery in particular, it was about preserving the entire power structure which served the South's Planter Elite. Slavery was just part of that. They were also anti democratic, anti industry, anti education and anti government. These men ruled everything around them with the absolute power of life and death. Nobody has power like that today.
Being against Government turned out to be a huge problem when you're fighting a war against an industrial power. The Planters wouldn't allow themselves to be taxed. They refused to give their national government the power to wage war adequately. They complained bitterly when their slaves were conscripted to build the defenses around Charleston.
Naturally they attempted to run the war as a faith based charity and there was support, but it never approached the amount of money needed to keep the armies of the Confederacy clothed, fed and armed.
The Planters never wanted SC to industrialize and didn't want good paying jobs to be available for poor whites who might work in those factories. They were afraid an increase in the free, white population would undermine their political control. They actively opposed attempts to build factories in SC before the war. When the war came, the South couldn't meet its own material needs. There was a crash industrialization program throughout the South, but it was too little, too late.
The South could have easily won the War in 1861 or 1862, but the people who controlled it were unwilling to commit the resources to Government necessary.
The Fireaters, Secessionists and Planters were turned out of office in the elections of 1862 in favor of seasoned political moderates who began to crank up taxation, government regulation and the war effort, which by that time was a matter of regional survival and hopelessly beyond any political compromise. The conservatives opposed these efforts, saying it was better to lose a war than your principles.
Sherman may have persuaded them otherwise, but after the war the conservatives hijacked the history and rewrote it for romance.
March 18, 2009 at 12:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...
"It's not hate, it's the heritage of hate..."
So true! So true!
Yird,
AS a southerner, I am constantly offended that the loud mouthed yokels that constantly voice their opinions as if they are the collective mentality of the south. Well, it is not MY mentality. There are many things to be proud about the South. The Civil War is not one of them! I never here you yokels talk about William Faulkner, Johnny Cash, Rosa Parks, Flannery O'Conner, R.E.M., and countless other figures and great minds that make me proud to be a southerner. No, you guys glorify a war that was ethnically wrong, hell, some of you idiots would like to secede again. Why not have a true Southern Heritage day, that celebrates all Southerners from various backgrounds, rather than a Redneck Memorial Day! The South lost! Now get over it!
March 18, 2009 at 12:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...
I never hear..
March 18, 2009 at 12:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
portcity (anonymous) says...
The more I read these comments the more I realize South Carolina is not worth defending to the outside world. Someone from Georgia once said to me "if we put a fence around South Carolina we would have the largest zoo in the world". You guys started a dialogue for a Confederate holiday, to MLK, to the President, one have absolutely nothing to do with the other. Do you guy ever keep up with the topic. I must say, I am glad I left Charleston, and after reading these comments from time to time, I know I will never return. Maybe we (in other states) should vote for that fence around S.C.
March 18, 2009 at 12:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Lowcountrymouth, there is no evidence that our current president is anything but a legal citizen. If you believe that he is an illegal immigrant, then I've got some oceanfront property in Kentucky I'd like to sell you.
Yird, I didn't say that your prejudices are mangled - they're clearly cemented in place, indestructible despite all reason to the contrary. What I said is that your prejudices mangle any points you try to make about Northerners. Your regional bias clearly informs your views of others and precludes any fair, rational consideration of others from forming in your mind. Whether you were born into those prejudices or chose to adopt them is irrelevant, though the fact that you aren't from here and yet choose to be so vehemently opposed to people who aren't from here does ring a bit hollow.
I fully believe that you wouldn't badmouth SC, though. If your own claims are to be believed, you're one of the well-to-do who don't have to concern themselves with the plight of the working poor. When the system works for you then of course you don't see a problem with it.
March 18, 2009 at 1 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
portcity (anonymous) says...
I got it, make the holiday for Juvember 5th of each year.
March 18, 2009 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ms_lady2u (anonymous) says...
How about Neverary 33rd of each month!
March 18, 2009 at 1:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bb165920 (anonymous) says...
its history and it should be celebrated.
March 18, 2009 at 1:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
I've got a really insane idea. Why don't we actually teach kids the truth and ACTUALLY teach them American History! What a concept!
This cuts both ways. Let's drop Black History Month and just incorporate the many contributions that great black Americans have made into the curriculum throughout the year. Let's teach the truth about the Founding Fathers, and let's teach the truth about the Civil War.
I know, I'm crazy.
March 18, 2009 at 1:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
melvinthebarbarian (anonymous) says...
You know, what with the City of Charleston closing the bars early, banning smoking in public restaurants and edging out a lucrative biker trade, perhaps we should be thinking of this in terms of economics. Forget the school districts. Bring this to Charleston!
Tourists ($$) come here to Charleston expecting to see Confederate Disneyland. They want to see the dark drama of the plight of the enslaved Black man and the bittersweet glory of the Lost Cause. This is not something we have to be ashamed of -- this is something we have to sell.
Confederate Memorial Day affords savvy marketers some great opportunities to bring people (and their money) here to Charleston.
Insofar as educating students, it seems to me that folks like wjhamilton3 are doing a fine job. Keep up the good work, wj!
March 18, 2009 at 2:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
green123 (anonymous) says...
i think everybody should look at it this way, we are all americans, we celebrate memorial day and veterans day to honor all troops. the civil war was american versus american, therefore those who died in the civil war are being honored. kids do not need another day off school, like someone said we are 49th in a nation that is 39th in education around the world. why don't we all just move on. the civil war was going on 200 years ago people. oh by the way born and raised in charleston all of my life, so people can see that some south Carolinians use their brains.
March 18, 2009 at 2:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
GreenMonster (anonymous) says...
I make the motion for a John F. Kennedy Day!
March 18, 2009 at 3:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
yird sez:
"I agree, and when northerners stop acting like an occupation force trying to undermine or destroy all vestiges of southern history and forcing their progressive ideology on the south then and only then will the resentment fade."
===============================================================
Occupation forces, OMG, what a hoot. Nobody is trying to destroy southern, no confederate history, we know its history and aren't living it. It's over. Move on. It will always be there. You can tell your grand kids about it. Sheesh, Talk about paranoid and insecure.
Progressive=thinking and that is definitely out of flavor with the local slack jaws.
March 18, 2009 at 3:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
Cedarsticks sez:
"In the generations before all this politically correct extremism swept the country there was only one day off a week and that was Sunday. It wasn't a paid holiday but it was always a day filled with riches as well as a day for remembrance.
Somewhere amoung the years we have lost our way, so if we really want to honor those who fought for the cause we need to honor their heritage of hard work and remember the only day of rest they ever needed was Sunday."
===========================================================
So because we don't have a Confederate memorial day, sundays aren't special anymore? Political correctness killed special family time on sundays along with no confederate day? You are creative if nothing else.
How do you know they didn't work on sundays? God fearin' folks huh? We haven't lost our way, the history will always be there you and few others might have or can't keep up or whatever reason and trying to use it as weak justification for "confederate day". The families that keep sundays special can do with out intervention from a government entity to make them honor the dead of the folly that was the Civil War in the South.
Those two quoted paragraphs are ample evidence as why this state is so backwards and lacks vision.
March 18, 2009 at 3:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
Put a fence around SC and charge admission...hahahaha
March 18, 2009 at 3:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Here's the real reason why you only hear this in South Carolina. Because of my travels and work I've been involved in, I have met hundreds, if not thousands of people from all over the country. Everyone, and I literally mean everyone of them that has ever spent any real time in South Carolina is in agreement that the average native South Carolinian knows more about American History than the average American of other states. That's not saying much, but then again, it is what it is. But whenever and wherever you run into a person that has ever spent any real time researching and learning about the Civil War, 95% of them agree with the SCV
March 18, 2009 at 3:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BlackReign (anonymous) says...
Posted by abitskeptical on March 18, 2009 at 8:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"Regardless of the issue, the states at that time had a right to secede from the union. Plain & simple. It WAS over state's rights."
Correct! If it were about slavery, than the states that sided with the union should have been forced to release their slaves!
But, we do not need any more paid holidays. Let the people vote it up or down - Make it a day to honor the Confederate soldiers, as families see fit.
March 18, 2009 at 3:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
If the schools and Hollywood (LOL) taught the truth about the Civil War, this would never have been proposed.
March 18, 2009 at 3:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Grey, that's an interesting claim, but I have a hard time believing it. I'm not going to claim that the average person from South Carolina is worse with history than any other average person from any other state, but I have doubts that we excel head and shoulders above all other states as your anecdote would lead us to believe.
Frankly, our education system just doesn't provide an in-depth study of history to our students, and the average student doesn't go out of their way to learn a lot outside of the school environment. What we do have here is a longstanding oral tradition, with history passed down through families from generation to generation. This ends up leaving a lot of modern Southerners with a very detailed but still very subjective account of history, embellished as tends to happen by successive retellings.
March 18, 2009 at 4:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
ltgrunt;"I fully believe that you wouldn't badmouth SC, though. If your own claims are to be believed, you're one of the well-to-do who don't have to concern themselves with the plight of the working poor. When the system works for you then of course you don't see a problem with it."
You are essentially correct. For a good number of years I was a member of the working poor as you call them.
I asked for and received nothing in the way of help. I was able to use my own wits and energy to extricate myself from that trap.
I have empathy for people who are having it rough but little sympathy for those that use every excuse in the world to cover for their own lack of initiative.
I have helped a number of people over the years and continue to do so but in every case they are individuals that are making a concerted effort to improve themselves.
You on the other hand (along with half the population) seem to think it's the governments obligation to make people whole. On this one point I disagree vehemently.
One other thing. The education system in this state is not lacking.
Astronaut Ron McNair graduated from high school in lake city in 1967 which was the first year school integration was mandated in South Carolina.
Since he was black it is assumed automatically that he received a substandard education. Amazing the accomplishments this man had to his credit in spite of growing up in what was a far more hostile climate toward educating blacks than supposedly exists today.
Why are not all children able to succeed as he did in the new and improved school system we have today?
Sure can't be money because we pour tons more money into the schools than we did back in the sixties?
Wouldn't have anything to do with the Great New Society and the subsequent destruction of the once solid black family as well as many whites families also now would it?
Of course not. We just need to keep funding stupidity and calling it compassion.
March 18, 2009 at 5:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
solstice (anonymous) says...
I was born and raised in the South and most of my ancestors living at the time fought for the Confederacy. I am not ashamed of them. I am also proud to call myself progressive and liberal. Please don't lump me into some amorphous group you're calling Yankees or carpetbaggers. Your refusal to recognize as legitimate any ideas other than your own speaks volumes about why the South stil lags behind in almost every socio-economic indicator available.
March 18, 2009 at 5:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Yird, one person's ability to overcome adversity doesn't mitigate the effects of those adversities. Think how many more astronauts we would have from South Carolina if our education system functioned anywhere near as well as those in other states.
One success story isn't systemic success. One success story is indication that the system has failed many more than that one person.
And I would argue that we don't pour "tons" more money into education now than we did in the 60's here in SC. We put a little bit more money into education, but the cost of education per child has risen since the 60's, not just because of inflation but for a number of other reasons.
You're making the mistake of thinking that the world you grew up in was the way the world always was. You're ignoring centuries of development before and decades of development after your formative years and letting yourself get duped into believing in some "good old days" that were never that good, never that old, and never lasted all that long. The solid family you're reminiscing about has always bene plagued by social and economic problems, especially in the past three to four hundred years.
But no, instead of acknowledging the depth of the problem of poverty and socioeconomic inequality you write it off as a temporary and easily solved problem that can be fixed with a little elbow grease.
March 18, 2009 at 6:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nurenberger (anonymous) says...
Dare to be diffrent!Up against the wall Redneck Mother!!
Love the South but not it's way's.Peace Ya'll!
March 18, 2009 at 6:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
Posted by ltgrunt on March 18, 2009 at 6:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
One success story is indication that the system has failed many more than that one person.
Just as I anticipated, Excuses, excuses, and more excuses.
If the opportunity were not available the one could not have seized it.
It seems that in your convoluted way of thinking opportunity presents itself in a discriminatory manner.
March 18, 2009 at 7:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Yird, exactly what part of pointing out that extremely limited success is not something to be greatly proud of is an excuse?
You're so Hell-bent on labeling everything that I say as wrong that you don't even take the time to consider or understand what it is I'm saying. If I were to say the sky is blue I'm relatively certain you would disagree and tell me that it's fuchsia.
March 18, 2009 at 10:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hairy1663 (anonymous) says...
Tactically yes, figuratively no. While the confederacy lost approximately 73,000 men, the north lost almost twice that amount at 141,000. The fact that the south dominated most of the war with one fourth of the industry and one third of the population is something else us southerners are proud of. Personally I think the idea that southerners embrace their heritage creates jealousy among some and bewilders the ignorant.
March 18, 2009 at 11:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
Posted by ltgrunt on March 18, 2009 at 10:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yird, exactly what part of pointing out that extremely limited success is not something to be greatly proud of is an excuse?
It appears you are not bright enough to understand that your "point" was pointless and I don't have to label what you say as wrong.
Your words accomplish that on their own.
March 19, 2009 at 12:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Nice cop-out, Yird.
Hairy, the tactical brilliance of generals like Stonewall Jackson is something for the entire US to be proud of. As is the tactical brilliance of generals like Grant and Sherman. Yet still, each region tends to favor one or two generals, and here people tend to revile some generals despite the fact that they hastened the war's end.
March 19, 2009 at 6:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
Face it ltgrunt , you just can't stand to be outdone but eventually you'll accept it.
March 19, 2009 at 8:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CedarPosts (anonymous) says...
Now that the dust has cleared, I'll answer gatorbait.
I have no trouble with our Conferderate Memorial Day, just don't understand why you feel you need an extra paid holiday?
Sunday's are something I've always enjoyed but I don't understand why you would want to force anyone to take Sunday off?
As far as South Carolina being backwards isn't that why people move here?
But GatorBait I'm glad you agree South Carolina is a great place to live, and I too have given away plenty of maps with a arrow pointing north.
Keep up the good work GatorBait!
March 19, 2009 at 9:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Cedar, while I agree that excessive complaints about how "we do it better back home in [wherever]" do get annoying, I tend to be a bit more optimistic about people who stay despite their misgivings about how things are run here in SC.
I've always assumed that even those who complain or criticize the way government and society are run here yet choose to stay anyway do so because they have adopted this place as their home and want to do whatever they can to make it better in some way. If someone isn't from around here but puts in time and effort to benefit the communities of the area because they see things that they think are wrong or could be done better it isn't necessarily a slight to South Carolina.
Then again, many well-intentioned people from other regions of the country who try to help wherever they can here in the South get chased off for being "carpetbaggers." Sometimes it does tend to seem that the people of South Carolina would rather their problems not get fixed at all than to have someone from somewhere else provide a solution.
March 19, 2009 at 11:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
autjtg (anonymous) says...
Why is it acceptable that African Americans honor their Heritage by keeping that name. As usual it is a double standard.... Imagine if there was a Miss White America Pageant, or North Charleston Police Department sought only white officers....
March 19, 2009 at 12:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WSM (anonymous) says...
The racists and the trolls discussed earlier have surfaced to make their ignorance plain for all to see.
The purpose of a Memorial Day is REMEMBERANCE. Federal Memorial Day isn't even that, anymore. It has become another paid holiday, inasmuch as Easter has become "Spring Break" with its attendant debauchery.
It always amazes me to see that Confederate Memorial Day memorializes ALL men in that ghastly war,including those Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines of the Confederate States who happened to be minorities! Unlike the Feds, Confederate units had minorities openly serving in the ranks in defiance of the law. There were Blacks, Jews, Asians, Hispanics, Native Americans, and ...gasp...Irish serving in those armed forces.
Now, compare that to the "saintly blue angels," who while fighting to "free the slaves," segregated their own units, ordered Jews expelled from the camp by Grant's own order while he was in the western army, the documented rape and robbery of black free and slave by the Federal armies.
Folks, hate to tell you this, but there were a plenty of Black folks recieving a Confederate pension in this state!
March 19, 2009 at 12:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Excellent points if they are to be believed, WSM. Then again, the Union Army wasn't as evil nor as segregated as they are popularly depicted in the South.
"The Union Army was composed of many different ethnic groups, including large numbers of immigrants. About 25% of the white people who served in the Union Army were foreign-born.[5]
Breakdown of the approximately 2.2 million Union soldiers:
* 1,000,000 (45.4% of all Union soldiers) native-born Americans of British ancestry.
* 516,000 (23.4%) Germans; about 216,000 were born in Germany.
* 210,000 (9.5%) African American. Half were freedmen who lived in the North, and half were ex-slaves or escaped slaves from the South. They served in more than 160 "colored" regiments. One such regiment, the 54th Massachusetts, is dramaticized in the film Glory. Others served under white officers in Federal regiments organized as the United States Colored Troops (USCT).[6]
* 200,000 (9.1%) Irish.
* 90,000 (4.1%) Dutch.
* 50,000 (2.3%) Canadian.
* 50,000 (2.3%) born in England.
* 40,000 (1.8%) French or French Canadian. About half were born in the United States of America, the other half in Quebec.
* 20,000 (0.9%) Scandinavian (Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish).
* 7,000 Italian
* 7,000 Jewish
* 6,000 Mexican
* 5,000 Polish (many of whom served in the Polish Legion of Brig. Gen. WŠodzimierz Krzyżanowski)
* 4,000 Native Americans
* Several hundred of other various nationalities.
Many immigrant soldiers formed their own regiments, such as the Irish Brigade (69th New York, 63rd New York, 88th New York, 28th Massachusetts, 116th Pennsylvania); the Swiss Rifles (15th Missouri); the Gardes Lafayette (55th New York); the Garibaldi Guard (39th New York); the Martinez Militia (1st New Mexico); the Polish Legion (58th New York); the German Rangers (52nd New York); the Highlander Regiment (79th New York); and the Scandinavian Regiment (15th Wisconsin). But for the most part, the foreign-born soldiers were scattered as individuals throughout units.
For comparison, the Confederate Army was not very diverse: 91% of Confederate soldiers were native born and only 9% were foreign-born, Irish being the largest group with others including Germans, French, Mexicans (though most of them simply happened to have been born when the Southwest was still part of Mexico), and British. Some Southern propaganda compared foreign-born soldiers in the Union Army to the hated Hessians of the American Revolution. As well, a relatively small number of Native Americans (Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw, and Creek) fought for the Confederacy."
I love a well-referenced, properly cited article on Wikipedia. It's like having a million research papers at my disposal.
March 19, 2009 at 1:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
carlosthedwarf (anonymous) says...
The purpose of Memorial Day is to remember veterans who have died. American veterans. Last time I checked we lived in the United States of America. I don't have a problem with honoring Confederate veterans with a museum or a building, but not a holiday. I think that all it does and arguments like these does is divide us further and further apart as a country. We can't just be Americans anymore. People got to have a hyphen next to our name or worship another flag besides our own country's. People who had nothing to do with another family's oppression get blamed for events that happened hundreds of years ago. People from the northeast and in other parts of the country who move to the south get branded as "yankees" and are attacked by some in the south for having a genetic bloodline to people who might have fought against their ancestors.
We are all Americans. Those who have given their lives to this country including those Confederate veterans should be memorialized on Memorial Day, not a separate holiday just for them. Otherwise, what's next? Confederate Veterans Day?
March 19, 2009 at 1:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gatorchick (anonymous) says...
All I Can Say Is ITS ABOUT TIME SOMEONE SAID IT...If we can recognize Martin Luther King day as a federal holiday then why can't we have the Confederate Holiday...I don't see how there can be a racial problem..if you think about it we recognize just about as much of the african american days that we can...I hope we do get this just like black history month is apart of their heritage well so is May 10..its all about history...
March 19, 2009 at 2:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Gatorchick, the two have nothing to do with each other. Martin Luther King, Jr. made great strides in the civil rights movement and toward equality for all people in this country. EVERYONE, not just people of any one race, should honor King's legacy.
The soldiers who fought for the Confederacy, just like *all American soldiers in other wars* should be remembered on Memorial Day. Unless we get Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Spanish-American War, World War I, World War II, Korean War, Vietnam War, Iraq War I and II Memorial days, it just isn't right to specially honor our fallen soldiers of one war above all others.
March 19, 2009 at 2:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hairy1663 (anonymous) says...
ltgrunt, thats because they lacked a certain panache. Some how the image of Sherman over looking Atlanta while it burns isn't as romantic as Jackson "Standing like a stonewall" at the first battle of Manassas.
March 19, 2009 at 9:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
It's all in perspective, Hairy. Given the proper perspective, the mission undertaken by Sherman and his men has an adventurous, rag-tag quality. There's a certain heroism in an undersupplied, outnumbered unit bravely advancing into enemy territory in what seemed at the time like a suicide mission to destroy industry and agriculture but avoid battle whenever possible.
Fans of the romantic view should also appreciate Sherman and his men bravely fighting the blazes in Columbia in an attempt to save that city from the fires which had been set either by fleeing citizens or by fleeing Confederate troops. Risking their lives in the honorable act of fighting to save an enemy city is nothing to laugh at, right?
But no, I know I'm wasting my breath, so to speak. It would be an understatement to say that Sherman doesn't have many fans here in the South, and thanks to the old legends that have been passed down, it's doubtful that Sherman will ever be looked upon too favorably here.
March 19, 2009 at 11:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hooveryankee (anonymous) says...
THE LAST TIME I CHECKED SC WAS PART OF THEUSA. lETS CELEBRATE NATIONAL hOLIDAYS AND STOP LIVING IN THE PAST. HE war between the states IS PART OF HISTORY OF A FOREIGN COUNTRY NOT THE USA.
March 20, 2009 at 1:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hairy1663 (anonymous) says...
Oh! he had major kohonas,no doubt!
Whether retreating confederates started the fires that burned Columbia is still some what disputed though. I'm sure the true story will never be known for sure.The jury may still be out on whether I like the man,there's no disputing he deserves the utmost respect for his accomplishments during his military career.
I don't know if your wasting your breath, there are a lot of true historians in the area. Admittedly,like myself they may be a little bit bias ;) They will agree on one thing, you can't change history.
I do wish they would have a more comprehensive study of the period in the classroom. I think black and whites would be amazed at how much they share, if it was only taught.
March 20, 2009 at 1:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hairy1663 (anonymous) says...
hooveryankee, if we paid more attention to the past, we wouldn't be making so many mistakes today. CAPS LOCK!!
March 20, 2009 at 1:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandnateater (anonymous) says...
It's already a state holiday. State workers get the day off. When they declared MLK day as a state holiday they also made Confederate memorial day a holiday. Some of you people need to get out more. This is not new news!
March 20, 2009 at 5:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandnateater (anonymous) says...
hey yank ever heard of the Caps OFF key? lol.
March 20, 2009 at 5:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sandnateater (anonymous) says...
blue eyes tell me where you live and i would be happy to stand up in front of you.
March 20, 2009 at 5:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hooveryankee (anonymous) says...
Sorry I ofended anyone by using Caps but I stand by my statement
March 20, 2009 at 6:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gmansez (anonymous) says...
What's the modern definition of a "Racist"? Anyone who disagrees with a Liberal! Enough said.....
March 20, 2009 at 7:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Gmansez, is that like the way anyone who disagrees with a conservative is a Socialist?
March 20, 2009 at 7:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eds777 (anonymous) says...
That liberal, egotistical Yankee attitude is about the only thing I really don't like about South Carolina. Don't come into my yard and demand that I play by your rules!
March 20, 2009 at 9:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
I_Love_d_Peninsula (anonymous) says...
Why don't you just secede already! You ignorant bunch of inbreeds.
March 20, 2009 at 10:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BornSouthernDieSouthern (anonymous) says...
kudos to eds777!
I'm all for the Confederate holiday.
History- can't change it, can't erase it. Live with it.
It wasn't my idea
It wasn't my idea
Never was my idea-(quote from Ben Folds "Rockin' the Suberbs" song)
March 20, 2009 at 11:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MyView (anonymous) says...
Geezzzzzzzz......
1st Martin Luther King was a great man who encouraged black folks to take responsibility for themselves, just like EVERYONE should. He taught to stop making excuses and start making progress.
2nd Confederate Memorial Day is deserving of a holiday. It gives everyone time to pause and reflect on history, and learn from it. Just as MLK Day does.
MLK Day reminds us (all of us) to work for your own, without excuses. Conferderate Memorial Day reminds us that hypenating Americans, divides us, and the consequences of that endeavor.
Americans by definition are the great melting pot of many creeds, colors, religions and beliefs. This country was founded on the idea that not one group should decide what is best for all, but each group should have a voice without one being more valued than the other. It seems that we have lost our way. What is good for most will not be great for some, but through compromise it should be tolerable for all. Hence, majority rules. Not special interest groups, or those who cry the loudest. ANY intelligent AMERICAN should realize these things.
March 20, 2009 at 12:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconnor (anonymous) says...
A few points (and no, I didn't read everyone else's posts beforehand)
First- Why is Dr. MLK deserving of a day of his own and George Washington, Abe Lincoln, and every other president have to share? I am fine with MLK having a day, but if we get off of work/school for that day, why not Washington's birthday?
Second- Why should we get off for Confederate Memorial Day and not WWII Day, WWI Day, Korean War Day, Cold War Day, Spanish-American War Day or for any other war or skirmish? I think we should simply have 1 day to honor our heroes and that should be Memorial Day.
Third- My great-great-great grandfather and his brother both fought in the Civil War with the 6th Alabama Infantry, Company H [George Derrick (G.D.) Conner, Seth David (S.D.) Conner]. Their regiment fought with the Army of Northern Virginia in some of the biggest battles of the Civil War (Antietam, Gettysburg, Fredericksburg, The Wilderness, etc). While researching their unit I came across lots of letters from the front. MOST of the men that did the actual fighting were just poor dirt farmers that were more concerned with the corn back home than slaves, northern oppression, or Abe Lincoln. Most of these guys seemed to have joined to get the payment that came along with it.
Last- I am proud of my state. My ancestors from almost every branch of my family have been here since the early 1800s or before (the Civil War ancestors were coming back to the Augusta area [Hamburg, now a ghost town] from Scott County Mississippi when the war broke out). We have done, and will continue to say and do stupid things. We (collectively) have a short fuse and hate for folks to tell us what to do. We are bull-headed, but not dumb. If YOU do not like South Carolina, or the people who live here, please move somewhere else that suits you. That includes wacko right-wingers and liberal nutjobs. Leave me and mine to do as we will with our state.
March 20, 2009 at 1:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Aconner, the significant presidents get mushed together into one day here, however in other areas of the country they're each given a day (sometimes lumped into the first few days of a week, depending on where you are). I see that as a good thing, but then again I also see how it could get out of hand - we don't really need a William Howard Taft Day or a William Henry Harrison Day, after all.
I agree that we are "bull-headed, but not dumb" but I also think that we (collectively, as a state) could stand to be a little less bull-headed about ideas and people who aren't from here. Not everyone who comes here talking about how much better things are run [somewhere else] needs to be listened to, but every now and then someone from another state or even another country might offer up an idea that has some genuine merit. We shouldn't be so intent on doing things our own way that we completely write off every idea or method that comes from somewhere else.
And when you say that "MOST of the men that did the actual fighting were just poor dirt farmers that were more concerned with the corn back home" I think that probably rings true for soldiers in a lot of wars. Politicians, presidents and kings might like to talk about moral issues and whatnot, but for the troops in the trenches, those issues might not be nearly as important as staying alive and getting compensation for fighting.
March 20, 2009 at 2:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Takebackurcountry (anonymous) says...
I just laugh at this topic when it comes up. We live in a state that celebrates "graduation" from the 8th grade... It isn't expected, it's celebrated. Unbelievable. But by all means, let's find another day to close schools. Such a ridiculous argument. You can't look anywhere in SC without seeing a confederate flag. We need a "special" day as well? To do what? I served my country for 20 years. The only days that should be recognized are for those who contribute to the nation, not a region. We wonder why we have such problems attracting industry to the area. Give me a break. Let go ahead and do this thing, but let's call it "Hick Day" instead. At least it is being truthful with everyone. Please stop the heritage comments. Heritage belongs in history books, museums, and family heirlooms.
March 20, 2009 at 6:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
moonpie (anonymous) says...
I was against this at first but after hearing the first ladies blunder about being accused of "talking like a white girl" I reconsider. I think we need a whole slew of white only holidays! Celebrate the confederacy in every way possible, segregate schools (oh yeah we do this already), white only news papers shoud be started, white girls only pagents,(no special training to learn how to talk like a black girl).AND white people only double standard. We want it just like blacks have it now.
WOW WHAT IF LAURA BUSH HAD WENT INTO A WHITE ONLY SCHOOL AND TOLD THE ALL WHITE CLASS ROOM THAT SHE WAS ACCUSED OF "TALKING LIKE A BLACK GIRL"?
March 21, 2009 at 8:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Moonpie, how was the first lady's comment a blunder? She recounted a story about how she was teesed by her peers for "talking like a white girl" when she was younger, but then said that she didn't care what others thought and applied herself to succeed anyway. That's more of an inclusive, assimilated mindset that discourages segregation.
Do you think before you regurgitate sensationalist propaganda, or is it just a straight copy-paste routine?
March 21, 2009 at 2:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Rocks66 (anonymous) says...
Wese locals is shonuff glad yew smart fellas has come doun frum up in Yankeeland to show us whut races we iz an how stupid we are.
On the other hand, ours is the only region of the country to have retained its identity, despite the efforts of Northern teasippers and refugees like you to run us through the cultural "homogenizer". Moreover, we are not asking you nor our own guilt-laden homegrown white liberals to embrace the same views and opinions we've held dear for generations. We do, however, request that you present sound, reasoned arguments in defense of your positions, rather than the inarticulate comments, name calling, and race-baiting techniques and missives you and those of your ilk have typically employed.
As far as many of us natives are concerned, you're guests here, and you always will be. You've undoubtedly never noticed, but a lot of folks here harbor a deep-seated loathing for you and the boorish manners, regional arrogance, and political condescension you brought with you from your former paradises in Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, etc. Of course, there is one benefit to that: It makes you so easy to spot.
May I say in closing that we may have to live with you, but we don't have to like you.
March 21, 2009 at 4:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
"You've undoubtedly never noticed, but a lot of folks here harbor a deep-seated loathing..."
No no, believe me, it's appallingly apparent that most "natives" in this area despise people from afar. I've said it many times before, and it always rings true that Southern Hospitality really only extends to other Southerners. It tends to not really matter that people from New York, Ohio, Vermont or wherever else that isn't here can be nice, pleasant, courteous folks who don't try to push anything on anyone; once they let slip that they aren't from around here, invariably they are branded a "Yankee" and given a plain-as-day "you aren't welcome here" attitude.
And of course any "Yankee" who points out anything that happens to be out of sorts here gets even worse treatment. God forbid that anyone who chooses to relocate here and adopt this place as their home should want to do their part to improve it in some way. Many times it seems that locals here would rather that the community suffer than to see someone who isn't a "native" contribute in some meaningful way.
It's also completely unreasonable for any "Yankee" to point out that people here are capable of their own "boorish manners, regional arrogance, and political condescension." The people here are completely perfect, and every visitor should know it - why it isn't written on the welcome signs on the interstates right underneath "buckle up, it's the law" I'm not sure. Of course "Yankees" should know that Southerners are completely incapable of being rude, proud of their region to a fault and wholly intolerant of other social and political viewpoints.
Sorry, Rocks, but when you take a stance like that you highlight everything that is wrong with the way people who consider themselves natives to the South act towards people from other regions of the nation. It's all fine and dandy to be proud of your state or region and to have your own ways of doing things, but the blind hostility toward visitors needs to go. Tourism doesn't work so well when your attitude is "this is a great place to visit but we hate you all."
March 21, 2009 at 6:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarshGate (anonymous) says...
Why argue about the reason's for the secession of South Carolina in 1860 when the state set forth the reasons in a manifesto entitled "Causes of Secession" adopted and issued on 12/24/1960, 4 days after adopting the Ordinance of Secession, which itself gave no reason. The exact wordage of this manifesto can be found at www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/s.... Only one cause is mentioned in paragraph after paragraph---the growth of opposition in the north to slavery as evidenced by its prohibition in the northern states and their refusal to enforce the fugitive slave acts. Not a single mention of tariffs or any other reason for secession---only the dispute over slavery and the election of an anti-slavery president by the votes of the non-slave holding states. Honor the Confederacy if you must, but at least face up to the truth that SC's secession was solely about slavery and stop inventing causes that were not acknowledged by the secessionists themselves.
March 21, 2009 at 8:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarshGate (anonymous) says...
I meant "adopted 12/24/1860"
March 21, 2009 at 8:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Pawmetto (anonymous) says...
Contrary to most posters who say we must keep up with our neighbors, North Carolina and Georgia BOTH have Confederate Memorial days as holidays!
March 23, 2009 at 8:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lois_Lane (anonymous) says...
Hey if all those yankees would go back home we would have no traffic jams - and with all the hot air they spew they could melt some of that snow up north, reducing our drought down here. Go home yankee.
March 24, 2009 at 5:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ltgrunt (anonymous) says...
Thank you, Lois, for that wonderful example of exactly what makes the South look bad.
March 24, 2009 at 7:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
southerngrace (anonymous) says...
If we can have Black holidays celebrating that heritage ..why can't we have a non Black holiday celebrating someone else's heritage? I am sick of Black this.. Black that ..it is not always about them!
March 24, 2009 at 8:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Postandcourier.com is pleased to offer readers the enhanced ability to comment on stories. We expect our readers to engage in lively, yet civil discourse. Postandcourier.com does not edit user submitted statements and we cannot promise that readers will not occasionally find offensive or inaccurate comments posted in the comments area. Responsibility for the statements posted lies with the person submitting the comment, not postandcourier.com. If you find a comment that is objectionable, please click "report abuse" and we will review it for possible removal. Please be reminded, however, that in accordance with our Terms of Use and federal law, we are under no obligation to remove any third party comments posted on our website.
Users can now build user-to-user connections, follow friends' recent posts, add an avatar that fits their personality, and more. If you have posted here before you'll need to sign up again, or if you've never posted before, start now by signing up!
Full terms and conditions can be read here.