Carriage company inspections lead city to request to changes
Disclosing Charleston's first carriage tour company inspection since the city imposed stiffer regulations, tourism management director Vanessa Turner-Maybank noted "myriad problems" Thursday.
The report considers all five companies operating in the city and notes concerns in stabling, animal health and general operations and maintenance. The investigation found only one company, Palmetto Carriage Co., provides its horses with enough hay.
"Herd health for equine animals is not a new concept, but it is to Charleston carriage company owners," the report says. It also notes that most owners barely keep records and rely solely on veterinarians to make that information available to them.
The report set deadlines for each company to make necessary changes to meet city code.
Read more in Friday's editions of The Post and Courier.
Reach Allyson Bird at 937-5594 or abird@postandcourier.com.
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Comments
lifeisprecious (anonymous) says...
Allyson, please keep us updated on the situation. Thank you.
July 2, 2009 at 1:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
It is good to know my gut feelings for the people at Palmetto were correct. I always thought they were a great group of people!
July 2, 2009 at 1:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cdiggs (anonymous) says...
correct me if im wrong, but didnt the city just have their own vet go in and inspect all the companies and their animal care procedures not too long ago?? why are they just now deciding to investigate how much the animals are being fed? shouldnt the vet have had that info in his/her reports? i saw a horse pulling a red carriage last week that looked terrible!! i could count each of its ribs. did something change with this company because those horses looked great last year? what happened????
July 2, 2009 at 2:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
signseeker17 (anonymous) says...
cdiggs - Yes, the city vet does do inspections. BUT there has been one major change since then: I can tell you about the "red carriage" company (I worked there 10 years) - it was sold in October, 2008 to an idiot. The entire staff quit. I probably drove the horse you're talking about many times, and my heart aches to read your comment.
July 2, 2009 at 2:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
the economy happened!
July 2, 2009 at 2:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cdiggs (anonymous) says...
luna- if "the economy happened" then ALL of the animals downtown would look like the one i was talking about. if someone bought into the company that doesnt know ANYTHING about horse care, THAT explains it. the new owner probably cut costs by lessening the feed ratio and even buying cheaper feed than what was being previously fed to these animals. that is so sad!! how could you treat animals that have brought hundreds of thousands of dollars in like theyre not worth the poop that is shoveled out of its stall everyday?? it wouldnt suprise me one bit if this new owner is already driving around in a new car and is building a new house at the expense of these poor animals. sad to hear signseeker. my heart goes out to all of those former employees that can do nothing but watch these animals suffer now
July 2, 2009 at 3:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lawrendm (anonymous) says...
Nothing would make me happier to see all of these carriage companies out of business and this trade OUTLAWED. It's horrible enough that they have to haul fat tourists in 95 degree weather (which it was last week) not to mention they are not fed or cared for properly. Totally disgusts me. I would love to picket downtown with signs telling these tourists how poorly these animals are cared for.
July 2, 2009 at 3:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rollo (anonymous) says...
Well, well... who'd a' thunk it?! Our Mayor and City Council are experts on all things equestrian, including the proper operation of a carriage tour company!
And here I thought the only thing they might know about horses is that they see the backside of one whenever they look in the mirror.
July 2, 2009 at 4:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
malthus (anonymous) says...
The reason this inspection occurred is that the companies seem to be ignoring the temperature regulations. I was downtown on two horribly hot days in the last few weeks and heard several people commenting on how the horses never go up when the temperatures go too high. Now I do not know the exact temperature that the horses are supposed to be taken off the streets, but is the heat index not also taken into account? These companies need to be kept under a microscope.
July 2, 2009 at 5:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
signseeker17 (anonymous) says...
cdiggs, thank you for your kind words - we were all heartbroken. FYI all - this "inspection" started because a former employee at Carolina Polo contacted PETA, who sent a letter to the City alleging that that ONE company, Carolina Polo, was "abusing" their animals by subpar care and that several had died as a result (no word on how that part of the "inspection" is going). It seems that inspection has broadened to all of the companies. They can increase rationing, but they have to be careful - more food can make the animals colic. The solution will probably have to be reduced hours or restrictions on the number of tours an animal can work - THAT would be the best solution, I think. Heat - no companies don't ignore temp regs - we watched the the temp like hawks because in fact we, the employess, WANTED to get shut down, and wished they would lower the temp regs. Bur that's another post.
July 2, 2009 at 5:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
annemarie (anonymous) says...
Vanessa Turner-Maybank - and she's been in office HOW MANY YEARS (the answer is VERY MANY)? She worked for Mayor Riley as head of tourism or something FOREVER, and she is only NOW doing anything about these animals?
July 2, 2009 at 5:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dnn1314 (anonymous) says...
Malthus, the carriage companies are shut down by the city at 98 degrees or a heat index of 180/185. If the temperatures rise to this level, the CITY will not let any more carriages leave to go out on tour. And believe me, the companies are happy to shut down when it gets this hot. Do you really think the tour guide will fight to go on tour that hot?
lawrendm, how do you know all the horses downtown are not fed and cared for properly? One question: Have you cared enough about the horses that you have visited the barns and asked questions about how they are cared for? I will say a majority of the horses downtown working for the carriage companies have come from the Amish or logging companies. Now, im not saying all of the Amish dont treat their animals right, but a lot of Amish or logging horses are worked many hours a day, going a long time without water or food, and worked in the heat, im sure over 95 degree weather. Most of the carriage horses are strong and built, but when they start working in Charleston and some gain weight because they work much less than they used to. If you really care for them, then make sure you have looked into their health for yourself!
July 2, 2009 at 5:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
signseeker17 (anonymous) says...
Heat regulations for the carriage industry: when the temp reaches 98, OR the combined temp/humidity are 198, carriages are pulled from the street. Heat index is NOT taken into account at all. The offical temp is taken from a building on upper Meeting on the upper floor of a building (can't remember exact address). Most of us thought it should be at "the gate" (the market area where carriages leave to go on tour) at street level for a more realistic reading.
I can't speak for the current employees or owners, but in my experience, the vast majority of employees wanted the temp regs LOWERED.
July 2, 2009 at 5:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
annemarie (anonymous) says...
Shut down at 98 degrees makes it right?
I don't care what you say - it's cruel to work them at all. Who cares about what they do elsewhere? AT THE VERY LEAST, close in the summer and use them in the winter, fall, spring months. That would be a start. "If you really care for them..."
And I have an idea you, dnn 1314, are a carriage company owner and therefore, you might not have a voice in this discussion as it is in your best interests to run them unto death for $$$$$$.
July 2, 2009 at 5:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dnn1314 (anonymous) says...
No not an owner, but a barn hand who takes care of the horses. Ask me how they are cared for and I will tell you every single tiny little detail. Deal?
Dealing with the temperature is not up to me but I know for a fact that some of these horses are spoiled, especially the ones I take care of. I even think these horses are more well taken care of than some riding horses. You can ask me about that too because I have ridden at about 15 barns over the Charleston area and have a lot to compare from.
So any questions?
July 2, 2009 at 5:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
signseeker17 (anonymous) says...
Yes, VT-M HAS been around a long time, and she was always conscientious in my book, if not a bit laissez faire. She would listen to the owners over outsiders for the most part, because they know their business better than anyone else. That has changed somewhat though. I do think there is room for reform, but I can't see the industry being shut down completely; the VAST MAJORITY of the time, the animals are well cared for. If there's any shirking, it is usually due to the ignorance of new employees who are improperly trained.
July 2, 2009 at 6:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dnn1314 (anonymous) says...
Would you like to shut down horse shows across the country during the hot months too? Making draft horses (who were bred to work) not work because it's hot is ridiculous. Maybe everyone including construction workers, etc. should only work in the fall winter and spring? How nice would that be? At least we have a temperature regulation. I agree it should be a lot lower.
July 2, 2009 at 6:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
annemarie (anonymous) says...
I am sure you love the horses and do what you can for them, as did I at one time. Yet look at the strain they exhibit on the streets, and particularly in the heat. A city street is NO place for a horse. At least the Amish don't pack carriages full of fat people - and they ride on dirt roads there. Nor do they have them go 'round and 'round like a merry-go-round. The same trip every time, just about. No other stimulation at all. It's an inferno.However,
I also realize this is your livelihood. But overall, it's obvious to everyone these animals are suffering. It's just so obvious.
July 2, 2009 at 6:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
signseeker17 (anonymous) says...
Annemarie: It's not "cruel to work them at all". These animals are BRED to be worked. A little moderation may be in order, but they aren't meant to just go dancing barefoot in a pasture all their lives; they'd just get fat and die of colic. They need to work, and they WANT to work - they get bored and restless if they DON'T!
July 2, 2009 at 6:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
annemarie (anonymous) says...
The argument concerning construction workers is just not a valid one.People can make their own decisions. Animals cannot. It's our duty as human beings to look out for these creatures.
July 2, 2009 at 6:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dnn1314 (anonymous) says...
Dirt roads? Where do you see them walking only on dirt roads?
I believe they also walk on pavement but the draft horses tend to stay in the fields working on the farm. I'm sure they dont give their horses a break after every hour and only work them a few hours a day. And I'm pretty sure the Amish dont have thermometers to make sure they are not overheating every hour either. I have heard stories from someone I know who is a vet and also works with the Amish. And I bet logging horses pull much more weight than a carriage full of people. (and dont forget that the logs are not on wheels)
July 2, 2009 at 6:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
signseeker17 (anonymous) says...
By the way, a tour route is about two miles and 20 blocks. Each route goes in several directions, much of it shaded, and there are variations; it is not a "merry go round". Depending on the length of the tour route, the natural speed of the animal and traffic conditions, this takes about an hour, done at a walk on flat ground. The animals wear special shoes (3 inches of rubber/metal underneath) to protect their feet and joints. The average draft animal weighs about 2,000 lbs and is capable of pulling 3 times his weight. A fully loaded carriage (even with fat people)is well within the animals comfort level.
July 2, 2009 at 6:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
annemarie (anonymous) says...
dn1314, I am sorry if I have upset you. But yes, dancing barefoot in the pasture - or working for the Amish, or farming, or riding schools, etc. sounds like a much better life for a horse. However, what would it hurt to lower the temperature gage to 90 or so for starters, and keep them off the street those days? Just for starters. And make sure not just your horses - but all the company's horses are well taken care of -- as far as food and stalls and etc.? What would it hurt, except $$$$$ for the company owners? Isn't that the only reason they are forced out in the heat? Give me another good one. Think about it.
July 2, 2009 at 6:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dnn1314 (anonymous) says...
And I encourage anyone who is concerned about the horses to please go by and visit and ask lots of questions! This way you can see things for yourself :)
July 2, 2009 at 6:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
annemarie (anonymous) says...
And you are right. They do walk on major highways around Amish country. Aren't they a major source of transportation for the Amish?
July 2, 2009 at 6:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
annemarie (anonymous) says...
Oh, and that other reason they can't be taken off the streets in hot weather - other than $$$ for the owners? Have you left? Couldn't think of one, huh? I thought so.
July 2, 2009 at 6:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dnn1314 (anonymous) says...
annemarie like I said, I think the temperature should be lowered, I dont want to work in 98 degree weather either. But in my opinion and what I know about the Amish and logging horses, I would much rather be a carriage horse than either of those two..But we each have our opinions.
July 2, 2009 at 6:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dnn1314 (anonymous) says...
annmarie can you please be more mature about this post? I'm pretty sure I am younger than you but I feel like I am being more mature about it? And when I have been to the Amish country I have only seen the regular sized horses pull the carriages for transportation the pavement. The draft horses are mostly seen in the fields working. You dont need a draft horse to pull a small family or get groceries or go to church. Regular sized horses are more than capable of doing so. Ever wonder why the private carriages at Palmetto only have one horse or mule pulling them?
July 2, 2009 at 6:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
signseeker17 (anonymous) says...
I have a feeling the report will recommend that the temp regs SHOULD be lowered (as many of us have wanted for a long time), and its will be a blessing for all. Those regs were set by CITY by the way, not the companies.
A carriage horse in Charleston is MUCH better off than working for the Amish, or certainly loggers. They don't even bother to take their bridles off, they work dawn to dusk, no one checking their temps, giving them treats, giving them regular vet checks, shots, worming, vitamins, offering them all the water they can drink (we used to put fruit in the water barrels to encourage them to drink more), etc. etc. These animals are PETS compared to the Amish and loggers!
July 2, 2009 at 7:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lt1711 (anonymous) says...
it bothers me that ignorant people choose to post comments on here about how "horrible" these animals are treated when most of them have no horse knowledge at all and/or haven't bothered to personally go by any of the companies to figure out for themselves how these horses are treated. If you are THAT worried about them then do something about it.. that is besides commenting on an article on the internet because that is going to get you nowhere. go to the companies and ask questions. its guaranteed that you will be suprised at how well they are treated. and of course they work summers most of charleston's income is from tourism. but there are city regulations that protect the horses. yes the temperature should be lowered but these horses live better lives than most riding horses and most of them love their jobs! they are full of personality and get excited about going to work in the morning. horses are animals of routine its in their comfort zone to go through the same schedule and route (which by the way there several routes they can take) and these horses dont work every day. our horses all get plenty of days off either spent out at pasture or in supersized stalls at another barn with two huge fans. so please if your going to comment about their care look into it first and dont be ignorant. and no im not an owner
July 2, 2009 at 7:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
signseeker17 (anonymous) says...
Hry dnn, which company do you work for? I probably know some of the folks...
July 2, 2009 at 7:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dnn1314 (anonymous) says...
I have been working for Old South for over three years. Who did you work for?
July 2, 2009 at 7:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
signseeker17 (anonymous) says...
I'm out of the business now - but tell Ginger that Patt said hi!
July 2, 2009 at 7:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bohicket1339 (anonymous) says...
If anyone has pictures of the horses or in the barns where you think that the horses are being mistreated, please send them to me at email bohicketgirl@hotmail.com I completely agree with everyone saying to go to the barns and ask questions. The companies that let you look around and answer your questions obviously have nothing to hide. I bet if you go to Carolina Polo carriage, they won't let you back in the barn much less let you take pictures. I wonder why?
July 2, 2009 at 9:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
phoenix83 (anonymous) says...
There's more than one kind of hay. Mules are usually more destructive than horses. By feeding them more of a hay with less vitamins and minerals but at a higher volume, they get what they need and are entertained long enough to not damage their stalls. The company I work for uses a hay with more vitamins. If you fed them the same amount as Palmetto feeds their mules, you would be overfeeding them and risking colic. Compare iceberg lettuce to spinach. There are more vitamins in the spinach.
July 2, 2009 at 9:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pihchasell (anonymous) says...
I was walking to the market for some breakfast a few days ago and happened to walk by one of the carriage companies. I can't remember the name of the company, but it's the one on the corner that's red with black awnings...
So I guess they were getting the horses ready for the day and the one employee I saw was trying to get the pice of the equipment that goes on the horse's face (don't know what it's called) on the horse. Apparently the horse didn't want it put on and kept jerking his or her head away.
So the a*s-ho*e employee STRIKES the horse across the face with it!!!
And I don't mean a love pat, I'm talking full-out beat the sh*t out of the horse's face. The pice of equipment was made out of leather and METAL!!!
I told the guy he could go to jail just like M. Vick did for that kind of stuff...
I personally would like to put that skinny, mouse looking d-bag employee on a carriage and beat him like he beat his horse...
July 2, 2009 at 10:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
acharlestongirl (anonymous) says...
I wish that JUST ONCE, the city would see fit to handle a problem without creating a million others.
They receive information regarding Polo Carriage. Instead of investigating THAT carriage company and punishing them, they take it out on everyone in the industry. It's the way they have dealt with things for years and it sucks. There are some bad apples in the industry and they are the same ones that have always been the bad apples. THROW THEM OUT!
July 2, 2009 at 10:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tallblonde (anonymous) says...
I don't think anyone would (or should) disagree that the temperature restrictions need to be lowered - and the temps should be taken at street level - where the horses are.
It's not rocket science....
July 4, 2009 at 11:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lawrendm (anonymous) says...
I will go downtown with anyone that would like to spread this around to all the tourists as they stand in line to buy tickets for these poor creatures to haul them around on pavement when it is 110 degrees. Any takers?
July 6, 2009 at 2:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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