Funding clouds Civil War plans
Finding money for commemoration likely to be tough battle
Lowcountry historians, re-enactors and other groups met last month to throw out some ideas for commemorating the 150th anniversary of the Civil War.
The Post and Courier
Steven Danowitz of Massachusetts reads a placard Wednesday near a cannon at Fort Sumter. Planning for the Civil War's sesquicentennial observance is under way.
They would like to hold a symposium on the war's cause, mark the 150th anniversary of the signing of the Ordinance of Secession in late December 2010, stage a special commemoration of the reading of the Emancipation Proclamation and even mount ambitious re-enactments of the firing on Fort Sumter and the Battery Wagner assault on Morris Island.
They just have to figure out a way to pay for it all.
"It's a really bad time to be doing this," said Eric Emerson, director of the Charleston Library Society and vice president of the Lowcountry Civil War Sesquicentennial Committee. "It's going to have to turn around pretty fast for there to be the kind of commemorative events we anticipated when all this started."
Rodger Stroup, executive director of the S.C. Archives and History Center, said this state lags well behind Virginia, which has set aside $4 million for its sesquicentennial plans.
Stroup said state planners held seven meetings across the state that produced a varied set of ideas. The Civil War here was waged largely along the coast until the war's end, when troops under Union Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman blazed a trail through the middle of the state.
Stroup said he had hoped to receive about $200,000 in state money to assist local groups with holding educational or commemorative events. But that seems impossible this year, as his own agency already has had to slash its budget by 22 percent and plans to cut even deeper next year.
"Our budget is going to be somewhere around where the budget was in the early 1970s," he said. "I don't think the general public realizes what's happening. It's pretty grim."
Organizers hope to get private donations and accommodations tax money from Lowcountry cities, whose hotels and restaurants stand to benefit from Civil War buffs.
Illustration from the Library of Congress
This wood engraving depicts the bombardment of Fort Sumter by Confederate guns.
But private funding can be tricky given the lingering controversy over how central slavery was to the beginning of the war, Stroup said.
"People don't want to be seen as promoting one side or the other or one issue or another," he said. "There's just a hard-core group of people that feel like slavery was not the cause. We've got the declaration of causes right here in this building. One of them says 'to preserve slavery.' You can't get around it."
Robert Rosen, a Charleston lawyer who has been appointed to the state commission, said organizers plan to address that by ensuring that all viewpoints — those of the Confederacy, the union and the African-American population — are commemorated but not necessarily celebrated, especially given that the war cost the lives of more than 600,000 Americans.
"The mission includes teaching the general public about the causes, course and legacies of the war from the Union, Confederate and African-American perspective. A big tent, everybody's involved, not a bunch of Confederates running around celebrating secession," Rosen said. "My goal is to bring all the best Civil War historians, all the people who've written recent books about everything and really go to town."
Stroup said a federal stimulus bill could include money for historical projects. During the Great Depression, the government created jobs by paying people to take oral histories and slave narratives and make measured drawings and photographs of significant buildings and sites.
"People chuckled at those during the Great Depression, but those have turned out to be tremendously important historical resources," he said.
Other ideas from Lowcountry colleges, museums and historians include opening a museum to the Hunley in 2014, the 150th anniversary of its sinking of a Union ship, the world's first successful submarine strike.
"It would be great if there were funds to have some sort of educational components for schools in Charleston, Berkeley and Dorchester counties," Emerson said.
Emerson said he is assembling the wish list of commemorative events and plans to approach the Legislature for financial help, despite the bad timing.
"If we don't ask the state for money this budget cycle, then we're behind the curve," he said. "2010 is the (150th year since) the Ordinance of Secession."
Reach Robert Behre at 937-5771 or at rbehre@postandcourier.com.
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Comments
moonpie (anonymous) says...
Good let it go. 150 yrs was long enough don'y you think?
January 8, 2009 at 6:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Grinder (anonymous) says...
If it established a comprehensive, fact-based history of the time and events - meaning all perspectives and aspects as mentioned in the story - it would be worth it. That actually could lead to a final cessation of hostilities, anti-Northern sentiments, negative stereotypes of the South, and an accurate understanding of the real issues of the time. Just a thought.
January 8, 2009 at 6:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
There are more websites devoted to pornography than any other subject on the internet. No suprise here. But how many of you realize that the US Civil War is 2nd on the list? This is, by far, the most complicated war in world history. It would be nice if, one day, the average American actually knew the truth about the war.
January 8, 2009 at 7:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
islandbenzbc (anonymous) says...
Maybe the Obamessiah will put some money in his economic stimulus package for these activities...
January 8, 2009 at 7:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AFWally (anonymous) says...
....and a Confederate battle flag for every southern household
January 8, 2009 at 8:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hotchick (anonymous) says...
Newsflash - the South lost, get over it. On the other hand, an educational symposium, if objective, would be a good idea. However, I don't understand why there would be a need for hundreds of thousands of dollars for a symposium. I have helped put on many conferences. Yes, you do need "seed money" to help pay up front expenses, but after that you establish registration fees, get corporate sponsors and exhibitors, and you can work it so that it breaks even. Give the SC taxpayers a break. We have been paying for the Civil War in one way or another for 150 years.
January 8, 2009 at 8:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SmooveB (anonymous) says...
"Lowcountry historians, re-enactors and other groups met last month to throw out some ideas. . . They just have to figure out a way to pay for it all."
How appropriate- it sounds like the Confederate government's approach to the war as well!
January 8, 2009 at 8:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MsPiggy (anonymous) says...
hotchick:
Newsflash: The south will rise again!!!
hahaha!! Just kidding. My comment will probably only last for 5 minutes. :-)
January 8, 2009 at 8:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AFWally (anonymous) says...
Have obamessiah as the guest speaker with his very articulate speaking voice....he can also prep the ham hocks and collards.
January 8, 2009 at 8:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
beentook2 (anonymous) says...
You say Virginia has $4 million. Well, we certainly don't want to be a smaller idiot than Virginia do we. Why don't you call on the red neck from ravenel to find you $10 or $12 million taxpayer dollars. If he can't help, try Clemson. It seems they always have several million laying around. When it came to the rust bucket and its salt bath they stumbled over their collective two left feet to throw tax dollars into the pot.
Hey, that's an idea. Why not put a Yankee warship in the harbor, put a couple of evinrudes on the rust bucket, pack the nose of the rust bucket full of fireworks and head it into the Yankee warship. Block off the harbor and sell tickets to all the Yankees who want to see their donkey kicked, again. You could also sell "blimp" rights to budweiser and get a cut of their beer sales. Nobody in their right mind would want to see such an event as this sober. Combining the the tickets, the blimp, the beer and the food sales you should get enough in the pot to have the red neck from ravenel and the governor of illinois have a duel at Fort Sumter with the winner being named the Czar of Stupidness. The winner would also get a case of bud light and two bags of b-b-q pork rinds. Man, ain't living in America great.
January 8, 2009 at 9:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
I've done a number of Civil War events and it's hard to break even on them, like any educational or cultural activity. You can pull off a lecture or panel discussion, provided you have donated space. Original scholarship takes real time and most people can't afford to do that for free. You do run into problems over the slavery issue and people are determined to fight that out, regardless of what you try to do.
On the bright side, we have far more material about the war available now than ever before. Computers made indexing and finding the existing archival material much easier. It really cut down on the amount of travel needed to do research. Local newspapers (often far from battlefields) were full of letters home from soldiers, often dozens of them written by one soldier during the war.
Today, by running down letters in the now microfilmed local newspapers from the areas where the soldiers lived you can often put together accounts of the battles and other events written by the men who did the fighting on both sides. It's often a very different view of the war than the official reports of officers which have been in print for ever a century.
The huge efforts made to index and organize the records over the past twenty years have really opened up what we know. Those WPA slave and veteran interviews recorded in the 1930s are really amazing now.
What emerges from all this material isn't a simple story of good guys and bad guys, but a sobering mix of stupidity, heroism, brutality, kindness and error. Some day people will look back on our time and I doubt we'll be much better than our ancestors. The real lessons of history are that people get together and make huge mistakes and that war is often a very poor way to solve problems.
January 8, 2009 at 9:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleston1960 (anonymous) says...
Moonpie: "Good let it go. 150 yrs was long enough don'y you think?"
Wonderful thinking: Would you recommend that 150 years is the cutoff to forget about events that changed this nation? Using that same thought:
The American Revolution and Declaration of Independence were 230 years ago long enough!
The Constitution is 220 years old long enough!
The Monroe Doctrine was 185 years ago long enough!
The Emancipation Proclamation was 145 years ago is this close enough to being long enough!
Can you let us know when it has been long enough to forget these events too?
WWI 90 years
Women's Suffrage 88 years ago
Pearl Harbor - 67 years followed by WWII, D-Day and the atomic bomb
Brown vs. Board of Education 54 years
Kennedy Assassination 45 years
The Civil Rights Act - 40 years
Oh! Wait a minute. Let's just remove all correspondence that deals with history. It has to be done that way because we should not discriminate by blocking one group's history and remembering another, so just block out all of this country's past. We must shield our youth from the past. Oh wait, that would include the Bible, the Koran:
I guess it would be good for some people to forget history. Many would like to forget their favorite team's losses this past year.
History is there for a reason. History shows people how to change by HOPEFULLY learning from our past.
And for Hotchick perhaps you are one that does not like to hear truthful events when history is presented. Would you agree to it if they left out reconstruction and how the carpetbaggers taxed families out of their homes? Oh wait a minute that history is still going on by the big government that came as a result of the War Between the States.
And then for those that do not realize, one of the top visited sites for tourists (who provide a lot of the tax money for our local governements, and keep many people employed in the tourism such as hotels) is Ft. Sumter.
January 8, 2009 at 9:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
divinemscharleston (anonymous) says...
Great comment Grinder. Sounds like something someone with a masters from the CofC history program would say!
(Just a guess...it's not a common last name!)
SK!
:-)
January 8, 2009 at 9:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AFWally (anonymous) says...
wjh, along with letters and other documents there are the diaries of soldiers from both sides that tell the story as well. As a retired veteran, the history of the War is important to me regardless of who was right or wrong, who won or who lost, it is our history and almost divided us permenantly, I don't know how or why people just want to write the whole thing off....and for the scoffers.... wake up... history does have a habit of repeating itself.
January 8, 2009 at 9:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
I suppose this is a worthy adventure although personally I never had much interest in re-enactments or other such spectacles.
Borrowing a snippet from Grinder,
("comprehensive, fact-based history of the time and events - meaning all perspectives and aspects")
and another from wjhamilton3,
("huge efforts made to index and organize the records over the past twenty years have really opened up what we know")
gives me pause to ponder that if that same logic and enthusiasm were applied to learning about and understanding the constitution and the events leading up to it's creation, would the country be in the perilous condition it is today?
Our federal government expended great resources rebuilding foreign nations damaged by war. Must have learned something from history because that sure wasn't the case during "reconstruction".
January 8, 2009 at 10:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
Actually, reconstruction was probably the first time the United States attempted "nation building" to change the South and large scale social welfare programs to assist freed slaves. Obviously there were huge problems. People were more bitter about reconstruction than the war itself.
We've attempted to reconstruct Iraq and Afghanistan and we're having some of the same problems the US had in the South. It's easier to bomb and burn cities than to change the way people choose to live in them. Sorting out the ethnic problems in Iraq has similarities to sorting out the racial/slavery problem in the South.
That should be enough to turn some academic lecture into a brawl. Were Hampton's red shirts insurgents? Did SC have free and fair elections?
The big lesson now and then is that the War is the simple part and what comes after has a different set of problems.
For instance, public education in the South is largely a product of reconstruction and even today, support for it in the South is very divided.
As you can see, history gets relevant pretty fast and then you have a problem. If you are going to learn from it, you have to consider what you're doing now and that is never eacy.
January 8, 2009 at 10:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
combahee (anonymous) says...
The sesquicentennial commemoration (not celebration) concerns a period in our shared history that changed this country in many ways for all times.
In today's schools children aren't even being made aware of the war or it's effects.
This 5 year commemoration will have the purposes to entertain, draw hundreds of thousands of tourists and educate.
No matter what your political feelings are, events like this are a positive boon not only for an emphasis to educate but also a boon to our local economy in the form of tourist dollars and tax revenues from tourism.
Why do you think Virginia is spending the millions on promoting this commemoration? Because they understand the revenue that will be realized from tourism.
It is time the State realizes this and actively steps up to help fund with seed money this endeavor.
The State General Assembly has established an advisory board and there is already in place a advisory committee comprised of historians, museum directors, representatives of a number of state agencies with diverse representation from the SCV to African American Heritage groups to help guide this anniversary.
January 8, 2009 at 10:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AFWally (anonymous) says...
The fear of Gov't warrants gun possession in order to protect thyself from dictators, socialists, communists, tyrants and other breeds of the criminal element.....it is your patriotic duty.
January 8, 2009 at 11:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
AFWally Dittos!!!
January 8, 2009 at 12:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
Gee, my ancestors guns at home didn't slow Sherman down a bit. Back then we had the same type of muzzle loaders the Union Army carried. My ancestors were pretty sure Sherman was trying to impose a dictatorial form of government on them in the person of Abraham Lincoln and his radical agenda.
Some of my ancestors were good conservatives, so they joined the Confederate Army. They believed in low taxes and small government. For three years they fought with old, worn out weapons while the union had rifled Springfields with more range. They used worn out six pounder artillery pieces against the Union's brand new Parrot Rifles, Howitzers and Three Inch wrought iron ordinance rifles, which had twice the range and accuracy.
The union simply blasted their artillery and formations to pieces before the Confederacy could get in artillery range. In infantry confrontations, the Federals could stand off 300 yards and mow the 10th. SC down while they needed to close to 100 yards to project accurate fire.
Since the Confederacy couldn't tax people directly, they didn't have the money for ammunition so they didn't get to do target practice very often while the Federals did hour after hour of it. When they were attempting to hold Missionary Ridge at Chattanooga, they were starving because the Confederacy couldn't afford to supply rations and freezing because they didn't have cold weather uniforms.
When they ran out of ammo, Grant's army ran over them and they all ended up in a prisoner or war camp for the rest of the war. Grants army had plenty of ammo, new weapons and 70 thousand cases or rations stockpiled.
Since the men who had joined the Confederate Army were all locked up at Prinsoner of War Camp at Rock Island, only boys and old men were left for the home guard in Marion County. When Potter and Sherman both marched across their farm and burned it to the ground, we have no record of those boys and old men left at home who were my ancestors taking their home guns and fighting 45 thousand battle hardened, well armed men with artillery and cavalry. They lost everything but the land and didn't see real prosperity for seventy years.
They had hunting rifles at home, with more range and accuracy than a Springfield, but they weren't designed for high speed fire and couldn't possibly hold off an infantry company of 100 men, much less artillery. The Cavalry they would have confronted had Spencer repeating rifles. It would have been suicide.
If you think your pistol will protect your from the consequences of history you haven't paid much attention. It is an absurd fantasy.
January 8, 2009 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AFWally (anonymous) says...
Doesn't matter wjh, they stood their ground and fought for their homeland and what they beleived in. It won't be long and you will have to make the same choice, I like my ancestor's will fight for my rights to the last shot or breath whichever comes fisrt, I have no problem dying for my freedom, its what I beleive in and what the US Constitution guarantees me. You don't have to do squat, let them run you over if you feel outgunned, I won't retreat, if there is 50 maybe I'll take out 3 or 5, maybe 10 before they get to me, it will be worth it. I'll give no Qtr to whoever they are or whoever sent them, doesn't make a sheet to me, what matters to me is the ground I stand on and its mine.
January 8, 2009 at 12:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AFWally (anonymous) says...
"Give me Liberty or give me death".....Patrick Henry
January 8, 2009 at 12:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
In the 1980s Newsweek wrote a review of a book that predicted the demise, within about 10 years, of the Soviet Union due to several factors, the main being the large Islamic population in their Southern Republics (States). This prediction came to pass.
Just about a week ago a Russian Economist predicted the dissolution of the USA due to several factors. First was the moral disconnect between the huge cities in the Northeast and California and the "rest of the country" and second, the fact that the government is bankrupt. He said, when the yolk of the tax burden hits, the "average" American will realize he is paying to support the "urban" ingrates and failed NE manufacturing companies. (BTW that is one large reason SC succeeded the first time. You can Google Morrill Tariff).
My point is, the Federal Government is on the same road it was on the last time they POed half of the country.
January 8, 2009 at 1:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AFWally (anonymous) says...
scottmcx, spot on, the revisionists always bring up the evil southern slave holders story....even though American ships with Old Glory flying on mast brought the slaves back from Africa.
January 8, 2009 at 1:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
sorry, I fat fingered "seceded".
January 8, 2009 at 1:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
flinsc (anonymous) says...
I think we must start meeting and unite. Where is a place we can meet, everyone that wants to make it what we once were.
January 8, 2009 at 2:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
Join the Movement at...
http://dixienet.org/New%20Site/index....
January 8, 2009 at 3:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AFWally (anonymous) says...
Careful guys big brother is watchin', readin' and listenin' all the time.....I know I used to do it.
January 8, 2009 at 3:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
Watch to this....Yankees and Hawaiians want it too. It ain't just us dumb Southerners
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMDNUE...
January 8, 2009 at 3:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eyfigueroa (anonymous) says...
"Q:Why does the LS seek to protect the Anglo-Celtic core population and culture of the historic South?
A: The Anglo-Celtic peoples settled the South and gave it its dominate culture and civilisation. We believe that the advancement of Anglo-Celtic culture and civilisation is vital in order to preserve our region as we know it. Should this core be destroyed or displaced the South would be made over in an alien image - unfamiliar and inhospitable to our children and grandchildren. We, as Anglo-Celtic Southerners, have a duty to protect that which our ancestors bequeathed to us. If we do not promote our interests then no one will do it for us. "
Well Mr. Scottmcx: where do I and my family members fit into this?
January 8, 2009 at 3:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
It was during the "civil war" (that could be construed as an oxymoron)that the worst fears of the founders was realized, that being the use of the Army against citizens of the country.
I know, the Confederate States were supposedly a different country, in which case they should not have been invaded for trying to remove the "foreign" forces from their shores.
Mexico is invading us on a daily basis and we dare not repel that affront to our sovereignty but that's another issue.
If the standing army of the United States which is prohibited by the constitution unless in time of war (we have not been in a declared war for over 60 years) is called up to put down an insurrection that will also be in violation of the constitution since that duty falls to the militia.
If it ever comes to an armed overthrow of what is becoming a very oppressive government it will probably be massive sabotage and guerrilla tactics that will over time reduce revenue while simultaneously increasing the cost to the government to fight and bring those in power to the bargaining table.
What is best hoped for by most who despise what our government has become, is that before the situation reaches critical mass peaceful corrective action will occur.
We still have a constitution despite the fact that it gets ignored, unless it can be obfuscated and twisted like taffy candy to satisfy the insatiable appetite of population addicted to government largess.
January 8, 2009 at 4:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
You're welcome to go to war with the Government and Armed forces of the United States of America. Once was enough for my family. John C. Calhoun commented in 1850 that if the South didn't fight to leave the Union then, it probably would never have the relative strength to do so successfully. Apparently he was right.
You can probably pull of a Branch Davidian or Ruby Ridge, but a popularly supported armed rebellion by tens of millions of people is a fantasy. Ask the Afghans or half of Africa what modern, industrial warfare does to a population. Go to Rwanda. France struggles with all the problems you are worried about, but it's a great place to live. Somalia has been fighting a civil war for twenty years and there's no food, electricity or clean water.
Killing large numbers of people is a highly overrated way to solve problems. Nobody ever properly estimates the cost of impact when they start. Ask the Confederacy, Japan or Germany what it is like to have the United States Military roll over you.
January 8, 2009 at 4:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SCdeacinNYC (anonymous) says...
That whole website is laughable.
This whole thread has turned comical, in fact. The culture of the South doesn't just belong to "Anglo-Celtic", what about the Native Americans who lived here first and foremost on this land, the Africans who were brought here, built the foundations of the South and shaped it's culture, their descendents who also contributed, the many other ethnic groups that have made their mark on the society and culture of the South. It's not just "anglo-celtic", for pete's sake that also leaves out many other European groups as well and it definitely would not have existed if it weren't made on the backs of a diverse group of people who labored here.
Seriously, nostalgia for a return of the anti-bellum south is at best hilarious. It's sort of like people who are so nostalgic for the 1950s and the "simpler" America. Yeah things were great then, well except for that huge part about women being unequal and blacks and other minorities not having basic constitutional rights. Yep, great times back then!
I honestly think we should let whoever wants to secede to just go ahead. We'll give "let" you have whatever part of land in America is the crappiest and then you get live completely self-sufficient having obviously taken the greatest minds, healthiest and sturdiest people with you. I'm sure we'll all miss your important contributions to our nation. (sarcasm).
Back to the article though, I think historical commemoration is great. If it brings in all view points and doesn't seek to glamorize or glorify one side or the other (or over simplify for that matter) then it's good in my book.
January 8, 2009 at 4:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
Same way you fit into a Judeo Christian Culture now.
In case you didn't know the first American Presidential Cabinet to have a Jew or Catholic in Cabinet level posts was CSA President Jefferson Davis. The South is all inclusive and Euro-centric culturally.
Do you know who Bernard Baruch was? A Jewish SC native and advisor to President Wilson, FDR and Truman? His Father was a surgeon on the staff of Confederate general Robert E. Lee during the WBTS.
Did you know Black Confederates fought shoulder to shoulder with White Confederates in integrated units? In the Union army Black units were segregated and led only by White officers?
Do you know there are Black members of the Sons of Confederate Veterans?
We are not racist we are proud of our hertitage and eurpoean work ethic. What's the issue?
January 8, 2009 at 4:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
Did you know the last Confederate General to surrender....And the largest force in Indian Territory was commanded by Confederate Brig. Gen. Stand Watie, who was also a chief of the Cherokee Nation.
January 8, 2009 at 4:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
29407 (anonymous) says...
scottmcx wrote:
"...when the yolk of the tax burden hits, the "average" American will realize he is paying to support the "urban" ingrates and failed NE manufacturing companies. (BTW that is one large reason SC succeeded the first time. You can Google Morrill Tariff)."
Funny how the people up there might disagree with your assessment:
http://www.nemw.org/fundsrank.htm
Do you have any figures to back that up?
January 8, 2009 at 4:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
Your info is 2005 without a Trillion Dollar Bailout plus a Trillion Dollar Stimulus. It makes my point anyway.
I don't think the Russian subscribes to the "Old South" theory of dissolution just that it can happen and it might be that Massachusetts goes first. They were the first to threaten it after the Constitution was adopted.
January 8, 2009 at 4:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eyfigueroa (anonymous) says...
Mr. Scott, you didn't answer my question. You espoused the great things that some Southerners have done for Blacks and the Blacks fought for the Confederacy. You even spoke of Judeo/Christian culture, by the way if I'm neither Christian or Jewish, does that mean I have to leave the South if your people have their way?
But somehow your response failed to answer a very simple question.
How do I and my family fit this:
"The Anglo-Celtic peoples settled the South and gave it its dominate culture and civilisation. We believe that the advancement of Anglo-Celtic culture and civilisation is vital in order to preserve our region as we know it."
"We, as Anglo-Celtic Southerners, have a duty to protect that which our ancestors bequeathed to us."
I'm neither Anglo nor Celtic. And neither is my immediate family.
Again, I ask you, how do I and my family fit into this Utopia your group is trying to develop?
I just spent over an hour on this website and it's links. I appreciate those who work towards cultural cohesiveness and the idea of developing your own nation/state.
However, I am a Southerner as are my Mother's people and my former spouse's family and our children.
There is nothing on that site that welcomes me with open arms.
So I ask you again and please limit your response to the question at hand and try not to divert attention to another subject.
How does my family, who are NOT Anglo or Celtic fit into this master plan of Southern secession?
January 8, 2009 at 4:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
The point is, the South is multi-cultural and always has been. There is nothing that excludes you or any race.
I and we would welcome you and anyone else who consider themselves Southerners. You'd certainly want a wide range of political views. BTW I'm not a member of the League of the South. I was pointing it out to someone who wanted information. You should also check the Vermont, Alaska, Hawaii, Texas and a number of other similar sites.
January 8, 2009 at 5:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
29407 (anonymous) says...
"Your info is 2005 without a Trillion Dollar Bailout plus a Trillion Dollar Stimulus. It makes my point anyway."
I don't see that it does make YOUR point. Traditionally, Southern states have returned more in federal funding than they have paid into the pot. And it's unclear WHERE the bailout/stimulus money is going!
January 8, 2009 at 5:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
.
Posted by wjhamilton3 "Ask the Confederacy, Japan or Germany what it is like to have the United States Military roll over you."
With the exclusion of the war with the Confederacy, which the legality of remains a contested point by many,the war with Japan and Germany was a declared war by the congress of the United States against a non American foe.
It's highly unlikely that US forces would bomb or use heavy artillery to subdue their own countrymen.
I was not referring to isolated incidents like Waco which the government botched big time.
If millions of everyday folks become incensed enough to actually become violent it won't be like protesters at a anti capitalism demonstration.
Granted the possibility of a Soviet type response to civil unrest is possible given the direction the government is headed currently.
That is called tyranny and is the very reason the founders insisted the right to keep and bear arms would not be infringed since they were well aware of the evil that could be visited on citizens unable to defend themselves.
The most reasonable solution to the myriad of seemingly unsolvable issues in the country is to return to adhering to the constitution and one thing that would enhance the achievement of that goal would be term limits.
We were never intended to be a nation governed by professional career politicians nor were we intended to be a democracy with it's mob rule mentality but rather a representative republic with equal responsibility for and benefit from the general welfare of the country.
January 8, 2009 at 6:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wucherer (anonymous) says...
Let's all live in the present. Even those who enjoy living in the past pay for the entertainment but i for one am not interested in the same repeated event where the south was defeated and the north was victory of the battle between the nation divided. The same routines, same actors, same script played over and over again with the same result. Yankees wins and the Southerns got after being defeated got what they deserved. Get over it, get on with life and enjoy the yankee invention of the computer to play solitaire and porn sites.
January 8, 2009 at 7:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
Posted by wucherer "Yankees wins and the Southerns got after being defeated got what they deserved."
Is that Yankees speak your using?
The South didn't deserve the carpetbaggers then and doesn't deserve them now.
Amtrak has daily runs to the North for any who find South Carolina unbearable.
January 8, 2009 at 8:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wucherer (anonymous) says...
My we sound bitter and living in the past. *Laughter*
January 8, 2009 at 9:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AFWally (anonymous) says...
Why call it the Civil War anyway? There was nothing civil about it. The correct term is War of Northern agression.
January 8, 2009 at 9:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
AFWally, Dittos again!
January 8, 2009 at 9:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
abitskeptical (anonymous) says...
scottmcx-the point is: eyfig asked you about a specific set of words put forth on the LS website.
The point is: Those words do not lead one to assume that the LS WANTS the south to be anything but Anglo-Celtic...like the majority of its 1st settlers.
And while your statement that "the South is multi-cultural and always has been." is true, it certainly is not a big news flash, at least not to most of us.
The point is, that while I appreciate history, tradition & celebration of one's culture, I believe most people find the desire to segregate/separate regionally(form a country/union) according to race or ethnicity, or in order to promote solely one race, as a step down a dangerous & potentially evil slippery slope.
January 8, 2009 at 9:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wucherer (anonymous) says...
Those who don't learn from the past are doomed to continue living in the past. But atleast discovering a southern invented the toothbrush otherwise it would have been called a teethbrush. LOL!
January 8, 2009 at 9:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AFWally (anonymous) says...
The best part about the whole mess was when Booth capped Lincoln.....priceless. Thanks for the memories John.
January 8, 2009 at 10:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Cid95 (anonymous) says...
eyfig,
I think the answer to the question you asked is that culture isn't the same as ethnicity. I've met black Englishmen, Lebanese Australians, and an Asian German. I even know of a white (originally Swiss) Japanese citizen who is culturally now 100% Japanese. They all have adopted the culture of their respective new homelands.
The culture that built America was Anglo (or "Anglo-Celtic" which I guess is a bone thrown to the Irish and Scots?). There were French and Spaniards and Africans and Dutch and Native Americans present - but the ideas that shaped the US and our form of government were distinctly descended from English ideas of liberty and freedom, along with hard work and self-reliance.
As long as you subscribe to those same ideas, color or background or religion are not relevant.
January 9, 2009 at 1:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
abitskeptical (anonymous) says...
Cid95..good post.
January 9, 2009 at 11:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eyfigueroa (anonymous) says...
cid: as much as I appreciate your response I have to disagree with your assumption that the LS site refers to that.
When you speak of White Africans, Black British or a Swiss Japanese, you speak of an incredibly small minority.
Anyone can be anything if they either lived there long enough or are 2nd or 3rd generation.
But let's be real here, Anglo/Celtic Southerners referred to on the LS website are the White ancestors that first settled the South. Not my ancestors.
And if the desire is not to segregate based on ethnicity, then why the emphasis on Anglo/Celtic. Why not emphasize 'core American values'. Emphasizing Anglo/Celtic IS emphasizing race and ethnicity whereas 'Core American values' emphasizes the CULTURE that is the USA.
Granted our founding fathers were White Anglo Men and the foundation of our system of government and our culture stemmed from what they created.
However, it is 2009 and not 1709.
And basing a secessionist movement on
"the advancement of Anglo-Celtic culture and civilisation is vital in order to preserve our region as we know it." Or ""We, as Anglo-Celtic Southerners, have a duty to protect that which our ancestors bequeathed to us."
excludes those individuals who do not share that heritage.
It may seem like semantics to others but to me holding on to the term Anglo/Saxon/Celtic as opposed to Core American Beliefs seems exclusionary.
There are Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Sikhs, Atheists, Muslims, Blacks, Asians, Indians, South Americans, Samoans, Turks and countless others who aren't Anglo/Celtic who subscribe to the core values of the "American" culture.
What about them?
January 9, 2009 at 12:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AFWally (anonymous) says...
Yes...us Irish and Scots like bones thrown to us once in awhile.
I also liken my Indian roots to the Iroquoi Nation.....now the Injuns would have faired much better and lasted much longer had they scalped and killed the first white invaders when they got off of the Mayflower, subsequent slaughter of all other whites coming here would have been most effective, the Indians should have just kept killing all the whites they could stand at every chance. Indian torture was really cool, far surpassed all that pansy azzed sheet at Gitmo. Waterboarding...BFD, try getting skinned alive by Chief Red Bird instead. Man think of all those wagon train slaughters...sweet.
Sitting Bull was my favorite red man, killing Custer and his calvary at little big horn....sort of a sweet revenge for the "Trail of Tears" and other atrocities done to injuns by the US Gov't.
January 9, 2009 at 12:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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