Sen. Ford wants 2 holidays observed
He says both Confederate Memorial Day, King Day should be mandatory
By Bo Petersen
Choosing between Confederate Memorial Day and Martin Luther King Day Jr. is just picking sides, state Sen. Robert Ford said. That won't do.
State Sen. Robert Ford
Too many local governments are letting employees opt for one state holiday or the other. Ford wants to require them to observe both — or risk losing some state funds. He means it — his bill just cleared a Judiciary subcommittee. Picking and choosing between the two wasn't the idea behind his 1998 bill that established the two as an odd pair of state co-holidays, he said.
The idea was for people in black and white communities to understand each other's history, to maybe understand each other a little better.
"I'm tired of all the bickering and the hatred and the fighting we do in South Carolina," Ford said. "A black person needs to know what a white person goes through in South Carolina and vice versa. If you're born in South Carolina it's your history too. We need to know what made Southern whites do what they did, secede from the Union and fight a four-year, bloody war."
He hopes mandating the observances can foster a mutual respect. But in a state still divided over flying the Confederate battle flag at the Statehouse, a few interested observers give this new bill a big "Maybe."
"This is a decision we believe should be made at the local level by local officials," said Reba Campbell, Municipal Association of South Carolina advocacy director, in an e-mail.
This isn't a particularly odd or new fight for Ford, a Charleston Democrat, who is black.
He pushed the 1998 bill for five years until he saw it passed. He made a mission of removing the Confederate battle flag from atop the Statehouse when he took his legislative seat in 1993, but during the sometimes-rancorous debate came to appreciate the sensibility of those who honored its history. The flag was removed to a monument on the grounds. Ford is one of a few local and area state legislators who make a point of attending public observances of the May 10 memorial holiday.
But there's still tension over that flag and the co-holidays.
"It was an affront to have Martin Luther King Day (established) with Confederate Memorial Day. No, I don't think people should be forced to observe it," said Dot Scott, the Charleston NAACP president. She doesn't think the good it might do would outweigh the negative reactions.
"Everybody wants a day off. For the people serious about their heritage, the holiday should be respected just for that. It's like religion — if you don't want to pray, fine. But it's not going to bother me to have other people praying," she said.
Bill Miller, a member of the Fort Sumter Camp of Sons of Confederate Veterans, feels roughly the same way.
"I feel (Ford's) heart is in the right place, but I wouldn't want anything to do with that. I would just want people to understand and respect the people who tried to defend this city. It does bother me that we would mandate anything like that. It takes away from the dignity of it," he said.
Mandating the observance might instill a resistance rather than a respect, Miller said. A lot of people were upset by the King holiday because they considered it jammed down their throats, he said.
Ford has his supporters. Glenn McConnell, Senate president pro tem, Judiciary Committee chairman, Confederate re-enactor and Ford's friend, gets adamant about it.
"We're trying to get the holidays to mean something. If political subdivisions of the state are picking and choosing, it's not a state holiday. When they pick and choose, there's a silent message there and that creates resentment and misunderstanding," McConnell said. "We need to get beyond that. I mean, the whole idea (of the holidays) was to bring people together."
Local governments are political subdivisions of the state, he said; the state returns hundreds of million of dollars per year in Aid to Subdivisions money. If they're not going to abide by state rules, they can pay a fine on that money. They can't have it both ways he said.
The Judiciary Committee will give the bill a close look to make sure it passes muster, McConnell said. If it does, he gives it a fairly good chance of passing.
Getting everybody to go along likely won't be as easy.
It would great if the observances brought people together, Miller said, but "it's just very hard to do in this town. Maybe some day."
Reach Bo Petersen at 843-937-5744 or bpetersen@postandcourier.com.
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mmoe63 (anonymous) says...
Only in South Carolina....here you have Martin L. King who Died (WAS KILLED) fighting for people civil rights, freedom to be treated as people just as God planned. That's wonderful his day should be observed I agree. Now you have Confederate Memorial Day!!!! This day is to observe the people who died fighting to keep people in bondage; slavery. So you see here in South Carolina in so many way some people are still not respected as people..I'm sorry but it the truth. We'll give you MLK day BUT we must get Confederate Memorial Day. That's a slap in the face if I every seen one.
February 4, 2009 at 1:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
Screw Confederate Memorial Day, it took this state longer to formally recognize MLK day. That speaks volumes right there. Now you have this hack politician trying to appease someone with this move. Reconcile what? That some here are proud on being on the losing side and they need a day off from work to whoop it up? Speaks volumes for this state.
Oh you are in trouble mmoe, you started it, hahaha, the flag and the war had nothing to do whatsoever with slavery if you listen to the spun revisionist hayseed history that will be along shortly.
Then we'll be called every bad word they sputter through the spittle of self righteous indignation and some how will end blaming this on Obama. It'll be amusing.
February 4, 2009 at 3:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
postman01 (anonymous) says...
The real point is who in the h__l is Robert Ford or anyone like him to make celebrating ANY HOLIDAY mandatory?
Think, people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
February 4, 2009 at 3:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Cid95 (anonymous) says...
Do we want to become like India, with holidays every other week?
Memorial Day is an appropriate time to remember those who have fought and died for their homeland (whether USA or CSA).
MLK Day isn't needed at all. Their are lots of outstanding Americans, and there will be more to come no doubt. We can't give each a holiday.
Anyway, this is only for gov't workers. My company observes neither holiday.
February 4, 2009 at 4:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
spengler (anonymous) says...
Right on, Senator! Although I would have Cofederate Memorial day fall on the Federal Armed Forces day myself.
February 4, 2009 at 5:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lowcountrymouth (anonymous) says...
We need to remember these brave men who died to protect our freedom from the tyranny that comes out of Washington. It's too bad that there aren't men of this calibur today to protect those freedoms. The war of northern aggression wasn't fought over slavery. In fact Lincoln boldly declared that blacks are an inferrior race (his words, not mine) and that they weren't capable of taking care of themselves (I don't believe this, but Lincoln did). The war was started over massive taxation from Washington on products produced specifically in the south.
February 4, 2009 at 5:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CedarPosts (anonymous) says...
Leave it to our elected officials to create controversy where none existed.
Confederate Memorial Day, May 10th has been a state holiday for 140 some years, it coincides with Stonewall Jackson's death and the capture of Jefferson Davis by Union Forces.
It's time for the trolls to lighten up and enjoy our regional oddity and unusualness.
We have Ramp, Gulla, Watermelon and Shag festivals and a host of other days, weeks and months that mark our history.
It's ok!
Washington's Birthday is a federal holiday which honors our first president, though several states South Carolina included, honor president Lincoln on the same day and call it "President's Day" it is largely overlooked in the South.
While the King holiday is over shadowed by Cinco de Mayo in the Southwest.
The question is should Confederate Memorial Day be a paid holiday for South Carolina government employees?
The answer is simple, in light of the stunning decline is state and municipal revenues, NO!
More common sense and a list of all the State of South Carolina Paid Holidays, the list may surprise you at http://cedarposts.blogspot.com
February 4, 2009 at 5:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
10216340 (anonymous) says...
WOW....this is one of those RARE times when I see some value in what Sen. Ford has to say. I think he is right on when he talks about the need to truly understand each other. How else can we dig our way out of racism? I am not sure we, as a people/state, have what it takes to pull this (two holidays) off though. However, it is one way that, if handled properly, could bring us closer to some middle ground.
I applaud Sen. Ford in his attempts to openly address this issue.
February 4, 2009 at 6:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eatmorecollards (anonymous) says...
Now that Black Democrats have learned they can buy white votes with promises of free government money, its no surprise to me a suggestion such as this is being proposed.
February 4, 2009 at 6:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
moonpie (anonymous) says...
Yes Sid we do! One a week makes us a four day work week. Ford is being used by McConnell and isn't smart enough to know it!
February 4, 2009 at 6:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MiMi (anonymous) says...
Hey Robert Ford, is only doing this because he has a motive behind this. He is going to run for Governor of South Carolina next year! Don't anyone listen to the new.
February 4, 2009 at 6:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
islandbenzbc (anonymous) says...
Robert Ford for governor? Glenn McConnell and Robert Ford buddies? Strange bedfellows...maybe...NAH!
February 4, 2009 at 7:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
I agree that the federal Memorial Day is the appropriate time to honor the war dead of all Americans. As a thankfully born and raised Southerner, I honor all of our fallen Americans. I, also, recognize the blessings that we have for the South losing the War of Seccession. MLK is an appropriate holiday to honor a man and those who helped to bring more freedom to all Americans, especially whites and blacks.
February 4, 2009 at 7:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
native1 (anonymous) says...
No wonder the rest of the country views us as Backward. :)
February 4, 2009 at 7:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
USC_Alumni (anonymous) says...
Isn't everyday a Confederate Holiday in South Carolina?
February 4, 2009 at 7:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
native1 (anonymous) says...
LOL, USC_Alumni!!!!
February 4, 2009 at 7:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jifdeng3 (anonymous) says...
What?? I thought we were still fighting the Civil War with the way people act in this state. Is it over?
February 4, 2009 at 8:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Larz13 (anonymous) says...
This would be a great idea to solve the state's financial issues!
Give people the day off for both days but make them UNPAID, saving the state 2 days of paid holidays but then allowing those who celebrate those holidays their time off.
February 4, 2009 at 8:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
notafan (anonymous) says...
I love the whole "black people need to understand what white people went through and vice versa". How can this be when anytime a white person mentions the Confederacy they are instantly labeled a "racist" or "living in the past". Mr Ford how do you propose we fix this???
USC_Alumni- that was funny
jifdeng3- is anybody forcing you to live in this state? Move back to Ohio if you don't like the state. Hell, I will even help you pack.
February 4, 2009 at 8:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lovely_One (anonymous) says...
"MLK Day isn't needed at all. Their are lots of outstanding Americans, and there will be more to come no doubt. We can't give each a holiday."
I suppose the same is felt about Columbus Day??? Hell, he didn't even discover America. At any rate, I agree with what others have said, the Confederate soldiers can be remembered and honored(?) on the same day as the rest of the soldiers (the last Monday in May).
February 4, 2009 at 8:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
besttm (anonymous) says...
Reading some of these posts reminds me of how narrowminded some people still are. Senator Ford is right that we need to come together and understand where both sides are coming from. We need to respect other people even if we don't always agree with them. Until there is mutual respect, we will never move forward. South Carolina is unique in that we can't keep the stupidest among out of the news on both sides.
February 4, 2009 at 8:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hairy1663 (anonymous) says...
Posted by jifdeng3 on February 4, 2009 at 8:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
What?? I thought we were still fighting the Civil War with the way people act in this state. Is it over?
Nope, it's only half time.
February 4, 2009 at 8:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
zoomru (anonymous) says...
Thanks so much Robert Ford for this SMOKE...!!!
What you need to be doing is informing the citizens that we are ALL in fact still.....SLAVES !!!
How you ask??
Well....who do you kiss RObert Ford when you go to the PUMP for fuel?? Do you kiss Hugo Chavez and Ahab ...or...an AMERICAN Bio-Diesel FARMER ?? www.valcent.net
The answer is that we are still SLAVES to foreign MASTERS !! We have no free MARKET ....CHOICE !!!!
And you want to be Governor and can't (or will not) educate the state's citizens to this fact..???
Oh boyz..?!?!
Mr Robert Ford ...you can do better than this! Where were you last night? I didn't see you at the County Council meeting about the county comprehensive PLAN and the zoning for a LANDFILL??? Where does your trash go Senator FORD ??
Are you going to DUMP on the citizens of Adams RUN??
Remember....we are ALL still SLAVES !!!!
Need another example.....then walk outside today when you get out of BED and feel the BREEZE..!! Where is our Coastal WIndfarms to harness this ENERGY ?? We have GE right here in OUR state. DO you care about ALL South Carolina citizens..!?!?!
February 4, 2009 at 9:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
grannyofseven_2 (anonymous) says...
I see the same stuff is in hee again. Hi Lovely and Good Morning to all
February 4, 2009 at 9:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Southern_Cousin (anonymous) says...
Yes, when I worked for a local government employer and one had to "pick" which holiday to observe. I was appalled and disgusted. Now I work for the fed and there is no choice - because CMD is just a SC State holiday.
I agree, one Memorial Day is enough. Confederate Memorial Day is a joke. Let the racist and rednecks scream - whatever.
Only in SC. And yes, I am white. And yes, I am from SC- just not a backward 'tard like some of you.
February 4, 2009 at 9:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
native1 (anonymous) says...
While we're at it.....I have a problem with Christmas.......
February 4, 2009 at 9:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CedarPosts (anonymous) says...
Backwards? Hayseeds?
I would like to think that living in South Carolina makes us smarter than the other 49/50ths of the nation.
February 4, 2009 at 9:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tammie (anonymous) says...
Pardon me if I am incorrect but didn't MLK fight for us to work??? I pretty much agree with the masses, doesnt matter, I still have to work on the holiday.
Have a great day all.
February 4, 2009 at 10:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lovely_One (anonymous) says...
Hey granny! How have you been? Nothing ever changes here.
February 4, 2009 at 10:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
grainofsalt (anonymous) says...
Good point, Cedar. Simply choosing to live here shows an intelligence above those who live most other places. Ha ha. (Although I've met some Ohatians that had the sense to move here, but not much other intelligence or character to brag about.)
Frankly, I don't there should be official day off for either of those holidays. We have enough days where the banks close, no mail is delivered, state offices are closed and a portion of our workers who are unproductive for a day make it difficult for those who still choose to work to be productive themselves. Recognize both holidays (if you must), but do so AFTER work. You really need a whole day off for "reflecting" upon the meaning of these days? And do you really use that day off to do so? For the vast majority, I suspect the answer is no.
February 4, 2009 at 10:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TRODI (anonymous) says...
Actually until we as Americans stop having racially devoted observations.such as black history month ,terms african american and such this crap will continue.i mean your a American not many blacks were born in africa that are here today.second of all its American history it happened in america weather you were black Chinese whatever.there isnt a chinese american history or native American history.as for slavery join the ranks of thousands world wide.slavery has been in use for thousands of years and is being used all over the world to this day.is it right no but it is what it is.be happy that slavery in America doesnt exist anymore unlike other countries.and i doubt if many or any are alive that were slaves that are continuously going on about it.the native indians had there land taken arse whipped and forced to move on land they had been on forever.you dont hear them crying like wussies.id be ticked off if i was a black person today.you didnt give me the job because i earned it just because im black.that itself is a slap in the face to every black american who worked their butt off to achieve their goals...............
February 4, 2009 at 10:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shoelaces (anonymous) says...
My initial response is, "OMG, I agree with Robert Ford." Then I begang to wonder what he's up to.
I can't believe ANYONE in SC would be foolish enough to nominate him for Governor let alone actually vote for him??? I am embarrassed for blacks and our state when I hear him speak...poorly. I would hate to think he could possibly be our state's leading representative.
I love SC and its heritage. The Civil War was fought over STATES RIGHTS, not just slavery. That was only one of the issues involved. Folks who think otherwise need to do a little studying of US/SC history.
As a teacher, personally, I would like to do away with all of the "feel good" "politically correct" holidays so we can get through the school year quicker and keep the kids on a regular routine.
February 4, 2009 at 10:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amembersid (anonymous) says...
A little history of ours. The leaders of the Africian countries, who thought it was their 'GOD GIVEN RIGHT' to sell their people, got very upset when the trade stopped. By the way they made up for it by selling to the Arabs. Just google "History of Slavery".
February 4, 2009 at 10:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
Get rid of all Federal holidays, except for Independence day, Memorial Day & Veterans day.
In todays financial mess, federal holidays cost a butt load to taxpayers.
February 4, 2009 at 10:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
I doubt Holidays are going to get people to respect history. It takes time and on the ground effort to get people involved with and understanding the past. As busy and frantic as people are now, it's more difficult than ever. The problem is the same for the Civil War as it is the Civil Rights movement. People have to find a way to connect to it, learn enough detail to see why it's relevant and then hopefully apply it to how they live today.
Traditional cultures around the world make this part of ordinary community life. African tribes and little villages in Italy make the past part of their celebrations. Young people grow up learning it. Old people tell the stories. Everyone sings the songs.
In America, outside of a meager effort within the educational system, our cultural content is largely synthetic and commercial.
I've worked a lot with Civil War History, but the bitter controversy surrounding it has made meaningful efforts there more and more difficult.
February 4, 2009 at 11:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Satanssybil2007 (anonymous) says...
Val hush your mouth child I speak as a seasoned federal government employee we need our holidays so i personally think we should make conderate day a federal holiday as MLK day is......dixie deserves to be honored as well.
February 4, 2009 at 11:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
youngatheart (anonymous) says...
I doubt Holidays are going to get people to respect history. I agree with that statement wj. I also think this is just a plow to win votes when Robert Ford runs for governor. God help us! His moral ethics are "a mans gonna be a man". He saw nothing wrong when Bill Clinton "messed" around in the Oval Office.
February 4, 2009 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
americanheretic (anonymous) says...
The Confederacy went to war with the United States over the expansion of slavery into new western territories. It was about slavery! It was always,always,always about slavery from the very beginning. The slave owners sent the farm boys to die for their stupid, belligerent,constipated, Confederacy.
Shame not honor!
To hell with the bloody,Confederacy and baggie pants,wind bag Robert Ford!
February 4, 2009 at 11:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amembersid (anonymous) says...
americanheretic it was and is and will almost always be about money. The states wanted to be states. The federal govt. wanted power (money) they won and look what we are now. You are right Robert Ford wants something.
February 4, 2009 at 11:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Satanssybil2007 (anonymous) says...
hey american i take it you are not a native southerner?
February 4, 2009 at 11:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
"The real point is who in the h__l is Robert Ford or anyone like him to make celebrating ANY HOLIDAY mandatory?"
Yep
February 4, 2009 at 12:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
Ok, Satanssybil2007, lets make Superbowl Sunday a federal holiday an have it fall on Monday!
As for the "Civil" war being about slavery - NOT!
Did Lincoln REALLY Free The Slaves? - Excerpt
"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery," Lincoln wrote. "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi...
During the Civil War, President Lincoln suspended the writ of habeascorpus three times: first, on April 27, 1861, again on September 24, 1862, a few days after signing the Emancipation Proclamation, and finally on September 15, 1863. Although there is no exact record of the total number arrested during the Civil War, the Commissary General of prisoners listed 13,535 citizens arrested from February 1862 to April 1865. It should come as no surprise then that freedom from arbitrary arrest became the most important constitutional issue in the early part of the Civil War.
http://www.csulb.edu/~crsmith/lincoln...
What would Abe Lincoln think about Obama's presidency? Not what you would imagine.
Actually, Lincoln likely would have been appalled. How could he not? He was a 19th-century white man who famously said in 1858 that "there is a physical difference between the white and black races, which ... will forever forbid the two races living together upon terms of social and political equality."
Of course, Lincoln freed no slaves. That's the myth. His Emancipation Proclamation was a military measure to demoralize and destabilize the rebellious South; it covered states he did not govern, but did not apply in slaveholding states that remained under his jurisdiction.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html...
February 4, 2009 at 12:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suec (anonymous) says...
Robert Ford in the news AGAIN?!
He does whatever it takes to get his mug in the media.
February 4, 2009 at 12:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
"It's time for the trolls to lighten up and enjoy our regional oddity and unusualness."
Wow called a troll by the almighty blogger king. I feel privileged and honored. Now I would like to see you apply the same standards to those that attack from the other side but it's just part of the regional oddity or blogger standards.
Enjoy what? The celebration of a day that exemplified the oppression of people? Nah you can enjoy that oddity and live in the past bub.
The war of northern aggression and southern stupidity is more appropo. Lincoln looked for an excuse and the powers here in "dixie" that be gave him one to exert excess federal power down here and on the nation as a whole. Everyone was looking for a fight and the idiots in power on both sides got what they wanted. One side lost and one side wonI guess.
February 4, 2009 at 12:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nappyd (anonymous) says...
I applaud him for trying to get people to understand each other's side, but a law isn't going to do that. How about making neither a holiday and just taking President's Day off?
February 4, 2009 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Satanssybil2007 (anonymous) says...
Amen Val, I think that is a right smart idea but i think Americanheretic would object and suggest a lynching of the players if was even considered......b/c hell he calls us southerners "stupid, belligerent,constipated" get 'em Val! I got your back
February 4, 2009 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shoelaces (anonymous) says...
Val is correct....Lincoln did not really free the slaves. Not all of them anyway.
The Emancipation Proclamation ONLY freed those slaves who lived in states fighting against the Union. Any state that did allow slavery but did not go against the Union did not have to free their slaves.
February 4, 2009 at 12:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
Carefull Satanssybil2007 & shoelaces, gator will be calling us hayseeds before long!
February 4, 2009 at 12:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
divinemscharleston (anonymous) says...
The Civil War was ABSOLUTELY about slavery. I challenge anyone to mention any of the other leading causes of the war without mentioning the words slave or slavery. States rights? They weren't fighting and dying for the right to plant corn instead of cotton. If you take all of the causes you can think of for the war and put them in a basket...you could write SLAVERY on the basket and use it to carry your causes around.
Slavery was a cancer. There is no part of a slave owning society not affected by it. It's impossible.
Lincoln's intention when he freed the slaves was to win the war. It was an end game move and it worked. Lincoln could give a damn about the poor black people in the south, but he realized slavery wsa a curse on the slave owners as well as the slaves.
He was not about to let the union dissolve on his watch. He is a politician first.
Also, the reasons men in South Carolina fought and died in this war were as diverse as the men themselves. Honor their service. Don't defend the Confederacy
Now...that said...get over it.
There should not be a mandatory Confederate holiday.
Anyone living in this state who does not know the history of the Confederacy does not want to know it, and having a bunch of government workers sleep in and make waffles for the kids is NOT going to change that.
Black people hold on to the legacy of slavery just as hard as white people hold on to the legacy of the Confederacy. Both are not only moot points...they are senseless ties to a time in our history of which we should all be ashamed. It has left blacks/African Americans with a legacy of victimization and a notion that no matter what they do or where they do it, they are always going to be lower or lesser or other and because of this...they need a hand to get ahead. It has left white people with legacy of either guilt or resentment...neither of which ever manifest itself into productive healthy behavior.
MOVE ON!
Live, breathe, EVOLVE.
You can't reach for the future if you are holding on to the past.
We are better than this South Carolina
I wouldn't follow Robert Ford to a SpongeBob convention...even though he looks like Patrick...
He sounds like a caricature, and always looks like he's hungry...and in a hurry to get somewhere.
We teach South Carolina History in schools. Maybe if you spent more time focusing on educating children properly...you would not need to create a whole HOLIDAY to make the point.
February 4, 2009 at 12:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Satanssybil2007 (anonymous) says...
Val we need to teach gator a lesson, girl, he called southerners stupid......thems fightin words here in Dixie.....yee haw!!!
thanks for the warning Val (I am puttin on my gloves as we speak You?)
February 4, 2009 at 12:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
If you look at the internet, the number one subject, as far as being the subject of the most websites, is unfortunately, pornography. But do you know that the War Between the States is number two? There is good reason. There are a mountain of myths and legends surrounding it, and much of that includes the accusation that confederate soldiers were fighting to preserve slavery. This was not true (and very easy to disprove) and considering the serious nature of the charge, one should not throw it around so lightly. My ancestors only came to this country at the start of the 20th century. My family was not involved (in case you were wondering). But everybody has their pet peeve and mine is that I hate to see innocent people accused of serious crimes. Please do some REAL research before accusing anyone of supporting something as evil as slavery. Did SOME support it? Yes, but they were in the minority (no pun intended no disrespect either). Here's a few questions. Why did over 60,000 (documented) free black men ENLIST in the confederate army? Also aren't the slave traders every bit the villain and every bit as guilty as the slaveowners? Did you know that 100% of the slave trade was run by NORTHERN shipping companies? And what about the textile industry in New England that sought to keep slavery legal in the south so they could get their cotton dirt cheap and make millions of the backs of the slaves? When the anti-slavery movement gained steam, the Boston Associates (the textile lobbying group) fought emancipation tooth and nail. The war was over slavery, but not over whether it should be legal. It was over the corruption in Washington regarding it, especially in regards to taxation policies and the House Appropriation Committee's exploitation of slavery for NORTHERN prosperity. Most historical research says that 16% of southern white adults owned slaves. Interestingly, the very generation that made up the Confederate States of America saw an amazing demographic change in regards to slavery. The majority of "slaveowners" in the CSA era owned between 1-5 slaves. These were not the "Roots"-style plantation owners getting rich off slavery. Many were middle-class white Christian families who bought slaves, let them work off their purchase price and released them. It wasn't really slavery but a resurgence of indentured servitude, the Christian solution to overcome the evils of slavery while Washington bogged down in corruption. This is a very serious issue. Don't throw accusations around just because others in the past always have. Slavery was INVOLVED in the causes of the war but not the legal vs illegal issue.
February 4, 2009 at 12:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
"The cataclysmic event massacred a generation of young men, burned and looted the Southern states, set a precedent for executive dictatorship, and transformed the American military from a citizen-based defense corps into a global military power that can't resist intervention.
And yet, if you listen to the media on the subject, you might think that the entire issue of the Civil War comes down to race and slavery.
...the South had solid legal, moral, and economic reasons for secession which had nothing to do with slavery. Even the name "Civil War" is misleading, since the war wasn't about two sides fighting to run the central government as in the English or Roman civil wars.
the South had solid legal, moral, and economic reasons for secession which had nothing to do with slavery. Even the name "Civil War" is misleading, since the war wasn't about two sides fighting to run the central government as in the English or Roman civil wars.
Before the war, Lincoln himself had pledged to leave slavery intact, to enforce the fugitive slaves laws, and to support an amendment that would forever guarantee slavery where it then existed. Neither did he lift a finger to repeal the anti-Negro laws that besotted all Northern states, Illinois in particular. Recall that the underground railroad ended, not in New York or Boston-since dropping off blacks in those states would have been restricted-but in Canada! The Confederate Constitution did, however, make possible the gradual elimination of slavery, a process that would have been made easier had the North not so severely restricted the movements of former slaves."
http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/c...
I think gatorbait put it this way - "Adams believes that both Northern and Southern leaders were lying when they invoked slavery as a reason for secession and for the war. Northerners were seeking a moral pretext for an aggressive war, while Southern leaders were seeking a threat more concrete than the Northern tariff to justify a drive to political independence. This was rhetoric designed for mass consumption ."
February 4, 2009 at 12:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
The Emancipation Proclamation consists of two executive orders issued by United States President Abraham Lincoln during the American Civil War. The first one, issued September 22, 1862, declared the freedom of all slaves in any state of the Confederate States of America that did not return to Union control by January 1, 1863. The second order, issued January 1, 1863, named the specific states where it applied.
The Emancipation Proclamation was widely attacked at the time as freeing only the slaves over which the Union had no power. In practice, it committed the Union to ending slavery, which was a controversial decision even in the North. Lincoln issued the Executive Order by his authority as "Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy" under Article II, section 2 of the United States Constitution.
The proclamation did not free any slaves of the border states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, Delaware, and West Virginia), or any southern state (or part of a state) already under Union control. It first directly affected only those slaves who had already escaped to the Union side.
Ok, I am done with this topic, this debate can go on for ever. But Lincoln did not go to war over slavery. That is historical fact.
February 4, 2009 at 12:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Cid95 (anonymous) says...
Columbus Day? Another holiday that my employer (a US-based multinational) doesn't observe. Gov't employees, both federal and state, have lots of holidays and aren't known for their efficiency. Correlation? Maybe.
New Year's Day
Memorial Day
Independence Day
Labor Day
Thanksgiving Day
Christmas Day
Welcome to the corporate world. We do run a "skeleton staff" on the Fri after Thanksgiving so most employees have that day off too. Those who work that day are granted an extra paid vacation day.
More paid holidays? No thanks, I know that there is no such thing as a free lunch. The ones listed above are enough, we don't need to add more. We've got Memorial Day covered already, and neither MLK nor Stonewall Jackson need their own days.
February 4, 2009 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amembersid (anonymous) says...
Pushing it. Oh within our bending sickle compass come. We are product. Slavery is an on going practice of commerce. And yes, there is no santa but there are pirates. The aliens fly by and see us as a bad car wreck. We do not take very good care of ourselves, but, bitch about, we do well.
February 4, 2009 at 1:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
zoomru (anonymous) says...
What we are all STUPID too ....is the fact that WE let this NEWSPAPER get away with printing any politicians...SMOKE !!!
If Robert FORD or Glenn McConnell or Bobby or CHIP or Tim Scott CARED at all about all South Carolinians then they would be doing WHAT to have FREE and Competitive CHOICES at the Fuel PUMP !!! ....or doing what to harness ENERGY from OUR trash, OUR FARMS, OUR coastal WIND, and Lord knows what else..!!!!
OUR state's problem is that we are still SLAVES to OIL and COAL. Two energy products that we do NOT drill or MINE right here in OUR state...!!!
Think about this people.....the very people WHO EDIT and report for OUR papers that we read... live right here and do what.... to hold ANY POLITICIAN ACCOUNTABLE ?
NAME ONE POLITICIAN...ONE ! ...that stands UP for and has done WHAT to harness OUR state's GREEN ENERGY...!!!!
Don't tell US here that is too costly..??? WHAT ?
How much does it cost us to PROTECT the OIL pipeline from ARABIA !!! ...across the Atlantic....to refine it ........to PIPE it ...... to TRUCK IT ......!!!!
MY BACKSIDE ...........!!!!!
How much does it COST to rail in COAL ..??? Look at the cost of laying track over the previous DECADES..!! Don't tell US that harnessing OUR trash ENERGY is MORE costly !!! Don't tell US that PRODUCING Algae Bio-Diesel is more COSTLY...!! That's a load of "Good Ol' Boyz..B.S !!"
WE ....are ...fed...... UP !!!!!
February 4, 2009 at 1:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
zoomru (anonymous) says...
SC SENATOR...
ROBERT-O FORD............
What does that flag lapel pin represent in your MUG...????
I highly suggest you get a Confederate Rebel Flag.....SIR ! YOU are still a ........SLAVE ....like the REST of us all...!
WHAT are you doing to ensure a FREE Market for all South Carolinians...???
WE WANT TO KNOW !!!!
What would MLK do .......WHAT have you learned from HIM...??
WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO ...ACT ?!?!?
February 4, 2009 at 1:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleston1960 (anonymous) says...
WOW the trolls are out today!
I was driving in Mt. Pleasant the other day. I saw the sign, you know it, the one that says HWY17 North! If you don't like the way we do business in South Carolina, the roads do go back!
February 4, 2009 at 2:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suec (anonymous) says...
What flag is that on Sen Ford's lapel in the picture?
February 4, 2009 at 2:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bigwhip (anonymous) says...
Just what the economy needs another paid holiday.
February 4, 2009 at 2:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lovely_One (anonymous) says...
I think Federal holidays help the economy. When people are off from work an extra day they are more likely to spend more money because they have more time to do so. Also, if someone holds a position in which they work overtime, they are paid time and a half on a regular work week for any hours they work over 40. However, if the week contains a holiday, that person is paid straight pay regardless of how many hours they work.
February 4, 2009 at 2:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
divinemsccharleston, best post around here in along time on the issue.
Well said.
February 4, 2009 at 2:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
UrGatorbait "divinemsccharleston, best post around here in along time on the issue."
Posted by UrGatorbait on February 4, 2009 at 12:21 p.m.
"The war of northern aggression and southern stupidity is more appropo. Lincoln looked for an excuse and the powers here in "dixie" that be gave him one to exert excess federal power down here and on the nation as a whole."
Which is it gator? About slavery or northern aggression and southern stupidity?
February 4, 2009 at 2:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
divinemscharleston (anonymous) says...
Valkrie,
Here...Have a Slavery Basket to carry ALL of your causes around! They are free...It's Black History Month.
UrGatorbait is obviously functioning at a higher intelligence level than most...lol. He can recognize a well stated argument - even if he decides not to agree with it.
February 4, 2009 at 3:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amembersid (anonymous) says...
How do you know he (UrGatorbait) is male.
February 4, 2009 at 3:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
divinemscharleston (anonymous) says...
Good point...I do not know that for sure.
February 4, 2009 at 3:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AFWally (anonymous) says...
I like Ford's idea, we can have a dream on MLK day. Then we can wave the battle flag for the War of Northern Aggression...... and get paid for both. What a Country!
February 4, 2009 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amembersid (anonymous) says...
It is but all of our yesterdays that have given, but what we have today. Google History of Slavery. This is what we as a people have become, are, do.
February 4, 2009 at 3:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...
In my field, the corporate world makes about $10,000 a year more doing the same job for the state or local government (with the exception of federal which get the best of both worlds). I should know because I have worked both in local government and corporate world. Without paid holidays, what is the incentive for anybody that is worth a damn to work for Government?
February 4, 2009 at 4 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
divinemscharleston "He can recognize a well stated argument..."
Your obvious attempt at a rambling "argument" about the civil war is just that, a rant. You base it on nothing more than your emotions and feelings. I posted the actual words of Lincoln, un-disputed by any historian, and you "feelings".
Yes, you are a genius.
"My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery," Lincoln wrote. "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that." Honest Abe.
February 4, 2009 at 4:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amembersid (anonymous) says...
Bingo guilded? I worked for the great state of SC. I answered the phone. Why, because it needed to be answered. And answer it I did, and the people who called were Americans and needed America and the great state of SC. WE ARE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.
February 4, 2009 at 4:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
divinemscharleston (anonymous) says...
I'm a historian. The first thing you learn when writing papers is to never use the words "I feel that" in a paper.
It makes your argument appear weak, baseless and flighty. I've personally taken off points for it. No one care's how you feel...they care what you can prove.
But...this is not a history paper...these are statements made with the assumption that the facts are know and that the reader has a certain level of knowledge about this subject and is equipped to have this conversation. I can clip out quotes too...but I'm not teaching a class. I'm giving my opinion about a war and a holiday.
Last I heard, that was perfectly fine.
If you don't agree...great. If you do, better. I'm just happy to engage people who want to be engaged. I'm not here to convince anyone to do anything, or to have anyone re-evaluate all their life's decisions.
Perception is reality...and I'm just sharing a bit of mine.
Btw - Every decision to wage war was started with a feeling and an emotion. It's why we wage war, it's why we fight them, it's why we are each so adamantly stating our positions.
I can use facts to buttress my feelings...but...I'm supposed to be working right now. :-)
Be nice...lol.
February 4, 2009 at 4:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
americanheretic (anonymous) says...
The junk yard dogs are out! ain't this great?
February 4, 2009 at 4:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eyfigueroa (anonymous) says...
No Val...
It is you who rants on this board, albeit with quotes from articles/speeches you did not write and then you turn around and behave as if you've taught the masses valuable lessons.
MsDivine's post was well written & she articulated her personal thoughts with a level of intelligence very rarely seen on this board. In fact her post was rather objective, without the normal partisanship seen here. She was brutal to both sides. lolol
You, they or even I may not agree with everything she wrote but she is certainly heads above anything you've actually written (personally composed as opposed to cut & paste) in a very long time.
Are you Jane? You certainly remind me of that poster.
February 4, 2009 at 4:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eyfigueroa (anonymous) says...
"The junk yard dogs are out! ain't this great?"
WOOF!
February 4, 2009 at 4:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amembersid (anonymous) says...
di thank you very much, but. If we just feel like war , then let's just feel like peace. Have you ever been shot at. I have, and there is no huggy kissy going down.
February 4, 2009 at 4:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
divinemscharleston (anonymous) says...
I have never been shot at...and I think the goal it to get everyone to feel peace. Hate is fear...fear is ignorance and so on...
Thanks for the kind words guys...
I had fun posting today!
Oh...I'm not Jane...but she must be really cool!
February 4, 2009 at 4:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CedarPosts (anonymous) says...
Lincoln argued that secession would "destroy" the government, but such an argument was simply foolish. ...
It was equally absurd for Lincoln to argue that representative government would "perish from the earth" if the Southern states were allowed to secede peacefully.
In the Gettysburg Address, Lincoln claimed that the war was being fought in defense of government by consent, but in fact exactly the opposite was true: the Federal government under Lincoln sought to deny Southerners the right of government by consent, for they certainly did not consent to remaining in the Union.
February 4, 2009 at 4:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
americanheretic (anonymous) says...
Hey Valkyrie,Lincoln didn't start the war,South Carolina did.
February 4, 2009 at 4:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eyfigueroa (anonymous) says...
MsDivine: I was referring to Valkyrie. There was a poster (Jane) whose primary posting technique was to cut & paste from various websites then base entire arguments on those alone.
When she/he did compose original thought it wasn't often how shall I say this... as well put as yours MsDivine.
February 4, 2009 at 5:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amembersid (anonymous) says...
It's I have yet to be shot at and, I really hope you aren't. Hate is hate. I have seen hate, it was not afraid. Someone with hate in their eyes has no fear. di you are a good person..
February 4, 2009 at 5:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
coolray (anonymous) says...
What I want to know is~ When is there going to be a white history month?
I think that it is so unfair to have a black history month...
February 4, 2009 at 5:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lovely_One (anonymous) says...
eyfig, I have to agree with all pf your posts today. Val does sound (cut and paste) a lot like Jane and divine is a wel spoken and very objective poster. More rational than many here. It is refereshing to say the least.
February 4, 2009 at 5:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lovely_One (anonymous) says...
coolray, the reason there was ever need for a black history month is because black history wasn't being taught. "White" history was being taught all throughout the year. I have said before and I will say it again, that I feel ALL history should be taught ALL the time. It is sad that there was even a need for a black history month, but I think it is time to do away with it and (repeating) start teaching ALL history ALL the time TOGETHER!
February 4, 2009 at 5:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Lovely_One (anonymous) says...
P.S. The history needs to be the uncut, unrated, concentrated version. Not the watered down crap that is being taught today.
February 4, 2009 at 5:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
divinemscharleston - If your just expressing your opinion than fair enough, my opinion, based on history, is that Lincoln, in his own words, went to war to save the Union.
eyfigueroa - no, I am not Jane. I believe Obama was born a US citizen, lol.
I could careless, one-way or the other what you think is valid or not. I could type my side of the story all day long. In the end, I would get "WHATS YOUR SOURCE?"
That is the way some on this board play the game. It is typical to try and negate a viewpoint from a "conservative" by telling them they must produce a valid source. So I don't waste my time. I paste and link, and others can read it for themselves.
Bottom line is simple, Lincoln did not start the civil war because of slavery. I posted several links and quotes that support that.
One by Leonard Pitts, a black man (but because he has an opposing view to the leftist, he probably isn't really black. right?)
http://www.miamiherald.com/living/col...
http://www.miamiherald.com/living/col...
Can you refute the following?
The Emancipation Proclamation consists of two executive orders issued by United States President Abraham Lincoln during the American Civil War. The first one, issued September 22, 1862, declared the freedom of all slaves in any state of the Confederate States of America that did not return to Union control by January 1, 1863. The second order, issued January 1, 1863, named the specific states where it applied.
The Emancipation Proclamation was widely attacked at the time as freeing only the slaves over which the Union had no power. In practice, it committed the Union to ending slavery, which was a controversial decision even in the North. Lincoln issued the Executive Order by his authority as "Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy" under Article II, section 2 of the United States Constitution.
The proclamation did not free any slaves of the border states (Kentucky, Missouri, Maryland, Delaware, and West Virginia), or any southern state (or part of a state) already under Union control. It first directly affected only those slaves who had already escaped to the Union side.
In 1862, when copperhead democrats began criticizing Lincoln's violation of the Constitution, Lincoln suspended habeas corpus throughout the nation and had many copperhead democrats arrested under military authority because he felt that the State Courts in the north west would not convict war protesters such as the copperheads.
Among the 13,000 people arrested under martial law was a Maryland Secessionist, John Merryman.
Reliable sources please!
February 4, 2009 at 5:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
americanheretic (anonymous) says...
Try: "What this cruel war was all about" by: Chandra Manning.
February 4, 2009 at 6:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
Posted by Lovely_One "P.S. The history needs to be the uncut, unrated, concentrated version. Not the watered down crap that is being taught today.'
I agree 100%, but true history would be so politically incorrect, the young generation of today, would have a mind melt if they knew the truth and not that leftist revisionist history that is being taught in the government schools.
The history books have been re-written to the point that there are more lies and half-truths about American history and Western civ. than there is truth about how great this nation has been and is.
Perfect? No, but still the greatest nation, ever.
I guess its just a matter of perspective, right?
February 4, 2009 at 6:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eatmorecollards (anonymous) says...
divinemscharleston- How can you make a blanket statement that the Civil War was all about slavery. Then call yourself a historian and allude that you are teacher. You may be a history teacher but if so, you teach out of a text book that your educational facility gives you to teach out of. It doesn't necessarily mean that you are teaching actual history the way it really was. You are just teaching whats in the text book, approved by what ever educational entity you work for. However you may be a professor and allowed to teach history as you perceive it. What ever the case I wouldn't want to take your history class.
For those interested, there is a good web site called the Online Books Page. There is thousands of book on all types of subjects, especially history. Most were written many years ago and are mostly out of print now. They are all free to be read on line.
Just do a search for the Online Books Page.
February 4, 2009 at 6:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
americanheretic
"Try: "What this cruel war was all about" by: Chandra Manning"
- Manning uses letters, diaries, and regimental newspapers to show how the Union and Confederate soldiers came to identify slavery as the central issue of the war and what that meant for a tumultuous nation. -
Great perspective, but it is not about WHY the war was started but how the soldiers that fought it felt.
February 4, 2009 at 6:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
divinemscharleston (anonymous) says...
With all due respect...Black History Month is a joke, and is quickly becoming an insult. It's becoming as ridiculous as Ebonics. You hear about the same 8 people. Martin Luther King, Jr., Frederick Douglas, Malcolm X, Madam C J Walker (the first black millionaire - she sold hair care products) Garret Morgan (invented the stop light), Rosa Parks, Harriet Tubman, and Marcus Garvey. That's about it.
It's taught in public school...you have to talk about the controversial figures in a watered down non controversial way...so they reduce the lives of these brilliant, vibrant, courageous leader to flash cards or sound bites. I didn't know a thing about Black Panthers until I started college. I though they were just a bunch of cool dudes with matching jackets...
Proclaiming Black History Month allows us to talk about 'all the good black folk' in 28 days...and never mention them again...until black history month. I knew teachers who would plan their black history month class participation...look up interesting facts and tidbits about famous African Americans...and then SAVE the until February. Really?? How completely absurd!
Is it just me, or does everyone get a little sad everytime they hear Black History Month? It sounds depressing. Black History...everyone knows this is NOT going to be a fun, or happy, or light. "We gotta talk about the struggle!"
And every year it's the same story...the same jaded programs...perpetuating the "We shall overcome" mentality that's keeping so many African Americans a step behind. If you keep singing we SHALL overcome...when are you going to get to the OVERCOMING! You have to SPEAK your reality...And singing about being at the back of the bus...or strange fruit hanging from trees...is not YOUR reality.
I know why it was created...I appreciate the sentiment...but we are SO stuck in 30 years ago. It's SAD. I'm not saying we've achieved the dream...I'm not saying that there are not huge racial disparities...I'm just saying that when you change batters, sometimes you gotta change up your pitch...lol.
Celebrate the lives of heroes all year! Remember the monumental moments in African American History on the days they happened...don't smush the all into one month.
February 4, 2009 at 6:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
divinemscharleston (anonymous) says...
Eatmorecollards:
I can make that statement because it's true.
If there were no slaves, there would have been no war.
Period.
February 4, 2009 at 6:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
divinemscharleston - "With all due respect...Black History Month is a joke, and is quickly becoming an insult."
I have to agree with you. I try and explain to my son that there are many black americans that endured great hate and terror, yet pressed on to overcome it, without the help of the government. He comes home with the attitude that, it is being shoved down his throat.
Black history month than becomes a point of frustration when it should be about learning about history - AMERICAN history and how blacks played a part in that and even before America, Africans, played a part in world history.
I like to tell him about jesse owens, and how he crushed the "super race" at the Summer Olympics in Berlin.
We have polarized ourselves in this country, we have become so fragmented and disjointed. I will be the first to enjoy a political discussion, but at some point, we have to find common ground.
But the language has changed, any discussion that involves race, and if it is perceived as negative, than the racist tag is out, immigration - negative - xenophobe, same-sex marriage - homophobe...you get the point.
Honest debate cannot be had anymore.
Please do not check spelling, I typed that really quick!
February 4, 2009 at 6:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eatmorecollards (anonymous) says...
divineemscharleston- You must have missed the politics that took place ten years before the Civil War.
February 4, 2009 at 6:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
divinemscharleston "If there were no slaves, there would have been no war."
In that perspective, you may be right, but that is not why olr Abe went to war. Lincoln freed no slaves. That's the myth. The Emancipation Proclamation was a military measure to destabilize the rebellious South; it covered states he did not govern, but did not apply in slaveholding states that remained under his jurisdiction.
February 4, 2009 at 6:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
Lincoln famously said in 1858 that "there is a physical difference between the white and black races, which ... will forever forbid the two races living together upon terms of social and political equality."
February 4, 2009 at 6:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
divinemscharleston (anonymous) says...
Eatmorecollards:
You must have missed the slaves being bought, sold, and traded during the ten years before the Civil War.
I'm not conceding this point. Slavery is an all encompassing thing. Trying to separate politics from slavery in the years before the civil war is like trying to separate the head from the body. SLAVERY = OWNING PEOPLE. OWNING PEOPLE. Think about that. How can you have an argument about anything...without bringing up the fact that...you own a few PEOPLE? And if you don't own people...you work with or for people who own people...or you are competing for work against the owned people.
OWNED HUMANS...LIVING, BREATHING, THINKING PEOPLE.
It's discussing YOUR rights and YOUR needs and YOUR desires...and ignoring ALL THESE OWNED HUMANS. The government gets to decide where you can take YOUR people...under which terms and conditions you can SELL your people. You can't remove them from ANY equation. It's like playing Chess on a pile of manure...you can debate the moves...make good one's bad ones...but sooner or later..someone's gonna mention...the smell.
February 4, 2009 at 7:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
outrage (anonymous) says...
Eliminate Columbus Day, Presidents Day, Mlk Day, or take your pick! Many people still have to work on these holidays. Keep your holidays and your holiday pay, I will take annual leave when I need it. You could even eliminate sick leave as far as I am concerned.
The govt. is attempting to force you to do something or risk losing funding. That would be illegal, I think. Can someone explain racketeering to me?
February 4, 2009 at 7:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CedarPosts (anonymous) says...
I find myself deeply concerned for my fellow South Carolinians, for many are either afflicted with the mental capacity of a ground squirrel, hardly able to recall where they buried last years nuts, or they have narrow mindset of a Catholic priest.
Gentleman there is no argument for stupidly, as it is certainly not a virtue.
To be so forgetful, or so narrow minded as to think that slavery was the singular reason for the civil war is to proclaim one's fitness for a mental institution.
Yet I am reminded that "With all thy getting, get understanding".
So I offer some of the basic reasons why the South was left with no choice but to leave the Union and declare independence.
Economic and social differences between the North and the haves and the South the have nots.
States versus Federal Rights, riff that began soon after 1776.
The fight between Slave and Non-Slave State Proponents.
The Growth of the often Violent Abolition Movement.
The Election of Abraham Lincoln.
February 4, 2009 at 7:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eatmorecollards (anonymous) says...
divinemscharleston- I'm in no way condoning slavery. As you probably realize by now, slavery may not have been the only reason for the Civil War. Slavery was used as the sentiment in the north to rally northern support for policy that was very unpopular in the south. The Civil War may have happened even without slavery. I'm sure slavery made it easier to rally northern support in case the south did secede though.
History should be studied lest we repeat it.
February 4, 2009 at 7:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
divinemscharleston (anonymous) says...
I'm not saying it is the ONLY cause...I'm saying it is the one factor uniting all of the of the possible plausible causes:
Economic and social differences between the North and the haves and the South the have nots.
States versus Federal Rights, riff that began soon after 1776.
The fight between Slave and Non-Slave State Proponents.
The Growth of the often Violent Abolition Movement.
The Election of Abraham Lincoln.
February 4, 2009 at 7:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Valkyrie (anonymous) says...
eatmorecollards "divinemscharleston- I'm in no way condoning slavery."
Nobody is condoning slavery, this discussion was started with divinemscharleston, flat statement that the civil war was started over slavery, and that is disingenuous at best.
The civil war was about tariffs imposed by the North and states rights (as in the 10th amend).
The term Civil War is a misnomer. The South did not instigate a rebellion. Thirteen southern states in 1860-61 simply chose to secede from the Union and go their own way, like the thirteen colonies did when they seceded from Britain. A more accurate name for the war that took place between the northern and southern American states is the War for Southern Independence. Mainstream historiography presents the victors' view, an account that focuses on the issue of slavery and downplays other considerations.
The rallying call in the North at the beginning of the war was "preserve the Union," not "free the slaves." Although certainly a contentious political issue and detested by abolitionists, in 1861 slavery nevertheless was not a major public issue. Protestant Americans in the North were more concerned about the growing number of Catholic immigrants than they were about slavery. In his First Inaugural Address, given five weeks before the war began, Lincoln reassured slaveholders that he would continue to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act.
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig2/mill...
http://blueandgraytrail.com/features/...
February 4, 2009 at 7:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amembersid (anonymous) says...
di, and but yet, we are.
February 4, 2009 at 8:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
divinemscharleston (anonymous) says...
To paraphrase Kenneth Stampp - the debate over the causes of the war has caused historians to constantly dig deeper for more information about the war..and has increased the amount of information known about that period to the nth degree.
Therefore...it is not a futile exercise...
Far greater minds are still having this debate. Not likely we will get it all squared away tonight...especially if you are not willing to agree that I'm right :-)
For me...When people talk about other causes as they relate to slavery, but are not specifically slavery as they relate to the causes...it reminds me of someone saying "I love you, but I'm not in love with you."
What the hell does that mean!
February 4, 2009 at 9:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Cid95 (anonymous) says...
Wow, from holidays to the cause of the "War of the Rebellion" (as it is known in the Library of Congress).
If you decide slavery was the primary cause of the war, and validate that by showing how it links to all the other possible causes of the war, then you can prove yourself right.
I could say that money and the desire for it was the primary cause, and then successfully link that to every possible cause. I don't believe that would make me correct, though.
If slavery didn't exist the economic differences between a less populous, and thus congressionally outnumbered, agrarian South and an industrialized North would possibly have led to war.
Without Dr Who to assist in changing the space time continuum, we'll never know. I consider it very likely though, especially when remembering that the New England states also seriously considered secession earlier in the 19th century without slavery as an issue.
February 4, 2009 at 9:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FinallyME (anonymous) says...
WHAT PRODUCTIVE THING HAS THIS MAN EVER DONE. HE IS TRYING OT MAKE A NAME FOR HIMSELF OFF OF CONTROVERSY BECAUSE THATS THE ONLY WAY HE THINKS ANYBODY WILL PRINT HIS PICTURE. HE WANTS A LAW AGAINST SAGGING PANTS AND IMPROPER(LETS JUST SAY UN-PROPER)ENGLISH. HAHA. HE THINKS THE MORE MESS HE STIRS UP PEOPLE WILL REMEMBER HIM AS A FIGHTER AND A MAN WITH A CAUSE, PFFFFFFFFTTTTTTT, LEMME STOP.
February 4, 2009 at 10:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
Hey Valkyrie
War is stupid having been to a couple. Apologies if that offends you.
"Which is it gator? About slavery or northern aggression and southern stupidity?"
How about a combination of the three? I have that choice right? I found the post pretty good from the poster, better than mine or many others around here. So boo hoo man.
February 4, 2009 at 11:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
counterpoint (anonymous) says...
what the **** is wrong with you people? That includes you, P&C. This rates just above soggy crackers on the s**t-we-should-worry-about-list.
February 4, 2009 at 11:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
soulfullatina (anonymous) says...
"This rates just above soggy crackers on the s**t-we-should-worry-about-list."
I just caught a case of the vapors reading that!!!!
February 5, 2009 at 11:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
greyrider Good post and far more accurate than many care to admit.
As for MLK. I wonder when enough adoration will be enough.
He is the only person who has a federal holiday dedicated to him solely. They took Washington and Lincoln and lumped their two holidays into one so MLK could have a day dedicated just to him.
There is hardly a city in this country that doesn't have a bridge, municipal building, street or highway named after him.
What's next, elevated to sainthood?
Yes he helped right some wrongs but he didn't exactly do it on his own. There were plenty of (dare I say it?) white people, that without there help he would have accomplished little of merit.
The South will always be the whipping boy for guilt ridden whites and perpetually victimized blacks. The rest of us of both races will just have to deal with it.
February 5, 2009 at 9:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CedarPosts (anonymous) says...
And so it goes, a nation divided.... more at http:cedarposts.blogspot.com
February 6, 2009 at 7:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eyfigueroa (anonymous) says...
Sorry about that val. You really remind me of her.
February 6, 2009 at 9:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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