Health Care: Right or privilege? 'Yes!' 'No!'
By Glenn Smith
Overhauling the nation's dysfunctional health care system has become an issue that has divided the country and sparked intense debates in town hall meetings from coast to coast.
South Carolina's junior senator, Republican Jim DeMint, has been at the center of the storm on several occasions for his fiery comments on the Democrats' controversial health care reform plan and its potential effects on President Barack Obama's political future.
DeMint generated further debate this week when he told The Post and Courier that he considered health care to be a privilege for Americans rather than a right.
Reader poll
Sen. Jim DeMint believes health care is a privilege, not a right. What do you think?
- Health care is a right. 31% 221 votes
- Health care is a privilege. 68% 485 votes
706 total votes.
"I do think in our country and in any civil society there should be a safety net for basic health and food and shelter, but that doesn't mean that the whole system should be designed around the belief that people can't make their own decisions, can't be responsible for themselves," he said.
Some pundits thought DeMint was way off base. Others thought he was right on the money.
The Post and Courier asked other members of South Carolina's congressional delegation to weigh in on the same question: Do people have a right to health care, and what obligation does government have to provide a safety net for those who cannot afford coverage?
The only person who didn't respond was Sen. Lindsey Graham, who was traveling outside the country. In late June he told ABC News correspondent George Stephanopoulos that a government-run health care plan "would be devastating for this country."
He added, "The last thing in the world I think Democrats and Republicans are going to do at the end of the day is create a government-run health care system where you've got a bureaucrat standing in between the patient and the doctor."
U.S. Rep. John Spratt, who is recovering from foot surgery, did not address the question directly, but his staff provided a prior written statement that summed up his views on the health care debate.
Not surprisingly, most of the lawmakers' views closely followed partisan lines. Below are excerpts from the lawmakers' statements:
Rep. Bob Inglis, Republican from the 4th District:
"Health care is not a right. I have no right to health care, to food or to shelter. I do have a right to work though. And I have an obligation as a member of Judeo-Christian society to make provision for these things, for 'the least of these,' in the things of food, shelter and health care. One of the best ways to be my brother's keeper is to keep free enterprise flourishing so that he has a job."
Rep. Jim Clyburn, House majority whip and Democrat from the 6th District:
"I, for one, believe that quality, affordable health care should be just as much a right as an education. The vitality and viability of our country depends on the vitality and viability of our citizens. Providing health care to only those who can afford the privilege is against our moral and ethical foundation as a nation, and will ultimately undermine our long-term success."
Rep. Henry Brown, Republican from the 1st District:
"Individuals have a right to purchase health care (or not to), just as they have a right to pursue happiness, and that right makes the individual free to choose. But when Democrats say that health care is a 'right,' they are both taking away our right to action by obligating us to provide to others and being disingenuous.
"In countries where there is a "right to health care," i.e., where there is a nationalized health care system, that right is being violated all the time whenever citizens seeking care cannot receive it in proper or timely fashion, if at all.
"We should certainly have a safety net for people who aren't able to get care, or who can't afford the insurance to pay for their care, but we should do it in a way that preserves their right to choice. ...
"To improve our current safety net, Medicaid and SCHIP beneficiaries would be given the option of a voucher to purchase private insurance, so they could take control of their health decisions. These reforms would make good health insurance more affordable for all Americans, while also empowering them with the freedom to make their health care decisions themselves."
Rep. Gresham Barrett, Republican from the 3rd District:
"While I do not believe health care is a right, I feel strongly that coverage is a need best met through the private sector. Certainly our system needs reform. Patients should have greater access to more affordable care, but giving the government a monopoly on health care would hold tremendously negative consequences for our families and for our economy. The American people have made it clear; they do not want government run health care."
Rep. Joe Wilson, Republican from the 2nd District:
"Health care is a privilege but one that should be affordable and accessible to all Americans. To declare health care as a right, the government would be empowered and obligated to insure its citizens. I'm not comfortable giving the government power over an individual's health-care decisions. A government big enough to give you everything is big enough to take it away."
Rep. John Spratt, Democrat from the 5th District:
"I understand the sentiment of those who are calling us to say that they do not want their medical care delivered from Washington. But I also understand that 50 percent of all health care in this country is either paid for or provided through the federal government. ...
"Our health care system is in need of reform, but we need to be wary of the cost and complexity, and we should choose among the best proposals in the House, Senate, and White House. ...
"We have the best health care in the world, bar none, but it is also the most costly, and access is not assured to the 46 million who lack insurance coverage."
Schuyler Kropf and Robert Behre contributed to this report.
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Comments
pirate42 (anonymous) says...
we as AMERICANS should have some sort of health care coverage most people that do work full time can not afford to pay daily living exspenses not alone what there employer offers in health care bennies, our medical field is one of the most outragous employee benifit program as far as health care. lets do this a Busshell of grain for a barrel of OIL to the saudis let them pay for americas health care or GO eat your OIL.. try mixing it with sand it may taste better.....
August 21, 2009 at 4:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lillycollette (anonymous) says...
Quoting Brown: "Individuals have a right to purchase health care (or not to), just as they have a right to pursue happiness, and that right makes the individual free to choose. But when Democrats say that health care is a 'right,' they are both taking away our right to action by obligating us to provide to others and being disingenuous.”
Brown herein alleges that forcing people to be financially responsible for their fellowmen takes away their ability to financially provide for themselves.
Yet no republican —including Brown— has lifted a finger to help a disabled worker who had his Social Security Disability Income ILLEGALLY garnished on behalf of a woman he was never married to for the support of her bastard by another man—with no lawful court order in existence anywhere on the planet.
Talk about—DISINGENUOUS!!!
August 21, 2009 at 6 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
justmyview (anonymous) says...
Whether access to health care is a right or privilege should not be the focus of the discussion. Millions of citizens can't afford coverage and health care costs are out of control. Since the United States is supposed to the nation that leads the world, shouldn't we have a first-rate health care system that provides quality care,almost everyone is covered, and does not consume a large percentage of our GDP?
August 21, 2009 at 6:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lillycollette (anonymous) says...
Deal with the FRAUD boyzz -- starting with your own first!
August 21, 2009 at 6:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lillycollette (anonymous) says...
I agree that 'right or priviledge should not be the focus of this discussion'. It appears that it is no more than a way to pick a fight.
August 21, 2009 at 6:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lillycollette (anonymous) says...
If these Repuliblitards believe their own tripe—they need to put their money where their mouth is and start dealing with the FRAUD!
August 21, 2009 at 6:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
metallic (anonymous) says...
A "right" is a "just claim."
Health care is a SERVICE doctors provide. Doctors trade their knowledge and skills with others in the economy who need it.
If one thinks one has "a right" to a doctor's services, one is treating the doctor with the most hideous disrespect -- one is saying that he thinks he has a "just claim" over the doctor's life.
The attitude of thinking that health care is a "right" is the same attitude of those who support slavery.
An opinion that health care is a "right" is an opinion that does not respect the doctor's individual right to his/her own life.
Those who think they have a "right" to health care, are saying that doctors are SLAVES to them.
August 21, 2009 at 6:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
moonpie (anonymous) says...
A right ? I seemed to miss that in my Government classes! Of course our government is nothing compared to what it was intended to be by our fore fathers. We have special interest writing legislation, people the gov has to take care of to prop up their voting class, unions owning companies with the gov, gov bailing out banks and finincial institutions that have milked the american people...yada yada yada WE NEED A REVOLUTION!
August 21, 2009 at 6:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
DougHuffman (anonymous) says...
Just say NO to the Obamination.
Either we are equal or we are not. Good people ought to be armed where they will, with wits and guns and the truth.
August 21, 2009 at 6:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sixcar (anonymous) says...
One of two things holds true to the individual that claims a "right" to health care--
1) you do not value personal property rights,
or
2) you do not understand the danger associated with such claim.
health care is not provided by material possessions. It is provided by people. People who have dedicated large portions of their time, money, and very lives acquiring the education and skills necessary to provide health care to those who need it. You can have the very best hospitals, medications, and medical equipment the world has ever known, but they are useless without the people with the skills and know-how to use them.
If you accept that as truth, then you must also accept the fact that claiming a "right" to health care is also a claim of right to the very education, time, money, and experience that person invested into himself, in order to become a doctor.
If you accept the fact that you do not own that individual, then you must also accept the fact that you do not have a rightful claim to what he has acquired.
The fact is...you do not own that person. You do not own his skills. You do not own his experience or his qualifications. Therefore, you have no rightful claim to the services he is capable of providing.
This issue has raised its ugly head before. But not at the frenzied pace in which it is discussed now. If you claim to have a right to health care, you either do not value personal property rights, or you do not understand the dangers associated with such a claim.
Freedom in this country cannot survive without rights to personal property. Personal property cannot survive without freedom.
People better wake up. Today, it's health care. Tomorrow....who knows?
August 21, 2009 at 6:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
abitskeptical (anonymous) says...
I go round & round w/ myself on what I think about certain things in regard to "rights".
I keep remembering the story of my grandfather(born 1889) who had to quit school at age 14 to help support his family.
He bought some books w/ the 1st little bit of extra $ he had. He read them.
He started his own business, at 1st home based & later in a "retail" building.
When he had a little bit more extra $, he hired a tutor.
No one ever would have guessed that he did not have formal high-school & college education.
Before his death in the 70's he was offered a million $ for his business. He turned that down & the business stayed in the family for another decade or so.
What factor, made my grandfather, who had no privileges or advantages except determination & a sense of responsibility to take care of himself, such a successful & productive person?
Throughout history, there are many stories similar to this...about people who start out in very poor & disadvantaged conditions & manage to "find a way".
August 21, 2009 at 6:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColdBud (anonymous) says...
I agree that cost are high. I agree that fraud is one of the major reasons. I agree that something needs to be done.
I do not agree that you have the right to make ME pay for YOUR healthcare. Taxpayer money should not be used to fund an overhaul.
August 21, 2009 at 6:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lillycollette (anonymous) says...
The issue here is about access and affordability of healthcare—NOT doctor slavery.
August 21, 2009 at 7 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reader (anonymous) says...
The better question is asking whether medical care is a necessity or a luxury. Medical care might not be something you have a right to, but it is something you have to have access to. You might as well ask whether you have a right to food and water.
August 21, 2009 at 7:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
Our federal government is just about to the point where it won't matter what we think. Almost all segments of our populace have been bought off. Most of our economic institutions have been bought off or been pawned off to them. In total, it has probably the most powerful military/police force in the world that abets importing illegal workers to add to its voting bloc. We may as well whistle in the wind.
August 21, 2009 at 7:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
The USA is not a Plantation and we are not slaves. That is the basic premise of the Bill of Rights & Constitution.
We keep hearing about the high price and price increases in US healthcare and a how a wonderful Canadian system will save us.
Since healthcare in Canada is so great..why as an example is the cost of Canadian healthcare 45% in 2004/05 of the Ontario budget?. Assuming that current trends will continue, the Ontario government has projected that the share will increase to 55% by 2025.
So, do you actually think prices will go down with the go'vt running a "Canadian" style program?
Can the USA afford 55% of taxes to be spent on another "welfare" program?
NO, YOUR FREAKING TAXES WILL GO THRU THE ROOF!
Docs will flee this country in droves. Just like their grandparents came here, they will leave.
The rest of us will be left hear to riot in the streets!
August 21, 2009 at 7:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
Typo...here...
August 21, 2009 at 7:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sixcar (anonymous) says...
lillycollette (anonymous) says...
The issue here is about access and affordability of healthcare—NOT doctor slavery.
lillycollette (anonymous) says...
I agree that 'right or priviledge should not be the focus of this discussion'. It appears that it is no more than a way to pick a fight.
lillycollette, the issue and the article to which you are posting asks the question as to whether health care is a right or a privilege. It appears, for your own convenience, you are diverting this discussion to "access and affordability" because you have no useful contribution to the question.
August 21, 2009 at 7:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jinx (anonymous) says...
Healthcare is neither a right or a priviledge...it is a RESPONSIBILITY. It is the responsibility of every citizen to put their health above other material comforts and maybe then they'd be able to afford a policy. My family pays $400 a month for a family of 3 and do we enjoy that money going towards healthcare? Of course not, that's a new car payment. However, we like the fact that we are taking care of ourselves and that we value our health over a new car, or cable tv, or eating out 4 times a week.
I don't want the gov't involved in my healthcare or telling me how to raise my child or care for her. Those of you looking for another gov't handout can go live in the UK!!
August 21, 2009 at 7:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
ColdBud- your post is a great example of the lack of understanding of the future of healthcare costs for Americans. It's not about "I do not agree that you have the right to make ME pay for YOUR healthcare."
It's about the fact that middle class Americans like you won't be able to afford health care costs in 5-10 years.
This is not about gov't taking money from " I make $40,000 a year" Charleston guy and giving it to the black man to buy a beer. This is about changing the system so that healthcare costs don't bankrupt the middle class in 10 years.
Let go of your hatred towards Obama and all thing governmental, folks. You are precisely the middle class humps he's trying to look out for! Don't believe everything that fat sack of opiates Limbaugh tells you; he's probably as high as a kite!
August 21, 2009 at 7:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
stoney1 (anonymous) says...
This has nothing to do with "Obamamination" but in fact the healthcare industry in this country is in distress.There are outlets already in place to treat those that need with Medicare and state run Medicaid Programs. What needs fixing is how business is conducted to ensure healthcare is affordable once again. Get rid of the lobbyists in Washington for starters, force reductions in Prescription Drugs,streamline the business aspect of the entire system and ensure that any government programs,ie; Medicare and Medicaid be only for U.S.Citizens.
August 21, 2009 at 7:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lillycollette (anonymous) says...
My mental functioning is in no way limited by the narrow scope of the suggested question posed by this article. If others are so limited that is their own personal issue.
If my comments are not ‘liked’ one is always free to call dial-a-prayer.
August 21, 2009 at 7:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reader (anonymous) says...
ScottCMX wrote: "We keep hearing about the high price and price increases in US healthcare and a how a wonderful Canadian system will save us. Since healthcare in Canada is so great, why as an example is the cost of Canadian healthcare 45% in 2004/05 of the Ontario budget?. Assuming that current trends will continue, the Ontario government has projected that the share will increase to 55% by 2025."
You are comparing apples and oranges. Right now, in the US, we already spend about 47% of our TOTAL GDP on healthcare. The 45% you mention is the amount of the Ontario BUDGET. In other words, the Ontario government is using the same percent of funds, but only when you realize that you are looking at a much smaller pie. The total percentage of money spend as a portion of GDP (and not government spending) is way below the American rate -- something like 10% versus 16%.
August 21, 2009 at 7:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
Gringo..
You say, "This is not about gov't taking money from " I make $40,000 a year" Charleston guy and giving it to the black man to buy a beer".
I say "OH, YES IT IS!"
Can we afford 50% or more of all taxes to allow someone to buy beer and sit on their a**?
If Dems had not hamstrung the USA with all this windmill, no drill, tax and regulate business to death crap the middle class would be making a lot more money since the USA could compete in the world market. As it is, we get everything from China and the Saudis AND WE HAVE TO PAY FOR IT!
The OLIAR Admin. just allowed BILLIONS to be lent to BRAZIL to dril for Oil in the Atlantic. I THOUGHT THAT WAS BAD!
August 21, 2009 at 7:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
maeko (anonymous) says...
"right" vs. "privilege"...how divisive! for shame!
what are basic human rights? we talk about them a lot, but what are they? who decides? it is rather subjective and there is no societal concensus. or is there?
Reader puts it well. "access" is the word. ultimately, we have no "rights". only the priviledges afforded to us by the grace of others. no man is an island unto himself.
i believe everyone should be allowed access to healthcare. the current situation has allowed the cost to reach a level that the lowest of society cannot breach it without assistance. that should be fixed.
the balance is off. the lowest get generous help from the govt, the highest need no help, and it is the middle that struggles. why would the low strive for the middle when the main benefit is continued suffering with more work? societies fail when there is no longer a middle. civil strife will have the low at the throats of the high.
August 21, 2009 at 7:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dawhetsell (anonymous) says...
The only "RIGHTS" we have are in our U.S. Constitution. It does not state that the GOVERNMENT can give taxpayers money to anyone. This has been discussed by many of out forefathers who were Legislators. The scumbag legislators have been destroying it from 1864 when they changed this country from a REPUBLIC to a democracy. In a Republic it takes 2/3s of the Legislators to make a LAW(not many laws were passed,only good ones). In a democracy 50% plus 1 could make a law. That is why from 1864 these scumbag Legislators and crooked judges have been RAPING our Constitution. A majiorty of the people have been letting them do this to us. You people who sit complacant are going to get just what you deserve, but not what you want SLAVERY to the few who control the goverment. If you people are so stupid not to see what happen to Russia,China, Germany(1936), North Korea and I could name many more. The Russains and Chinese are laughing at us right now. They have living proof that Socialism DOES NOT WORK.
August 21, 2009 at 7:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gatoraid (anonymous) says...
Herein lies the problem.......just about everything our president to date is trying to do is unconstitutional. According to the 10th amendment, the power that is not directly given to the federal government, and not given to the states, is therefore the right of the states. Thus everything he is trying to do, and/or has done, is unconstitutional. If the states want healthcare they need to do it themselves. I don't understand how so many people can be overlooking the constitution. Why doesn't the media ask that question?
August 21, 2009 at 8:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cwmcpa (anonymous) says...
I am sure that these politicians that feel health care is a right will insist that any health care legislation requires them to have the same plan as the public. Either this becomes law or some persons will be considered more equal than others. This is not about rights but about control, control to decide who gets care and who does not. Just like other laws passed on the premise of rights will they also intitute quotas? Yes quotas based on race and gender. Since women on average live longer than men should we stop care for women ar an earlier age. Since african American men have the lowest life expectancy of all Americans should we allow extra care to ensure that everyone lives the same amount of years. Rememeber if it is considered a right then we MUST ensure that it is exercised equally for all and take from the advantaged to give to the disadvantaged.
August 21, 2009 at 8:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
The middle class is on an allowance now. The government takes what it wants first, then lets us have the rest. The government can take any amount that they want. Arguing over it makes no difference. Individual freedom is only an illusion in this country now. We only have enough to keep us in our place.
August 21, 2009 at 8:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
Read,
Canada redistributes Federal Taxes to the Provinces, So.. I think you're wrong. Combined personal rates at about 35% average depending on income.
Also, the % GDP number in the USA that I keep seeing is about 17% on healthcare, not 45%.
August 21, 2009 at 8:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FBTracy (anonymous) says...
What would Jesus do?
August 21, 2009 at 8:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
gatoraid...
The Constitution died in Court...at the Court House in Appomattox, Virginia.
August 21, 2009 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldglory (anonymous) says...
This healthcare argument is endless.
My observations are:
If the government does not become involved in healthcare, then you, who seem to know the answers, share them with all of us. All I see everyday are vague words from everyone about what they think, what's a right, what's a privilege, but no answers, no suggestions, no details (also the problem of politicians, most of whom perform 'smoke & mirrors' when they grandstand).
Just how is healthcare made affordable for everyone? Let me hear details, please. I don't want a politician's answer, because we know what that's about and we can't deny it. We also know what corporate giants are about. Also, most men and most women take opposite positions on these types of issues, you know. It's just the nature of these beasts.
Anyway, here I am starting to spout off, and I promised myself I wouldn't--I need to invoke my privilege of going out, gathering, and bringing home the food. Walmart tries to make it painless, but when my whipped cream substitute rises in price in just a few weeks from $1.00 to $1.29, because I need products with no sugar, no salt, no fat (the less in the product the more it costs)--darn, must be my right to live on this type of food. Don't laugh y'all, because you too will reach that point in life too! I will be there in the background--not laughing, but definitely smiling!
August 21, 2009 at 8:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bobbyonetooth (anonymous) says...
Who cares if it is a right or not. South Carolina is a mess and we need to elect people that have real freaking plans to fix the problem. People keep going broke paying medical bills while knuckleheads like Henry Brown wrap themselves around keeping the government out of the solution and relying on private insurers to provide more competitive rates.
Next time Henry wants to fight a War I suggest he go the upper middle class voters he is protecting and ask them to put on uniforms. Quit using the middle class to do all the heavy work and then finding ways to hold them back.
August 21, 2009 at 8:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
The question in the headline, while provoking, is irrelevant.
The answer to the healthcare question is this: a society that provides all members with a basic level of preventative and maintenance healthcare will be more robust, better educated, financially secure and successful all around.
Anything above that is a luxury. Each individual may choose if they wish to spend their money on luxury healthcare.
August 21, 2009 at 8:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SCHoser (anonymous) says...
Once again Gringo, you show your complete lack of understanding of what this is all about. This isn't about trying to save the middle class, it's about taking what the successful people have worked for and giving it to others. Obama said it himself-wealth distribution. If the government was really concerned with everyone's health, they would outlaw certain practices and that's a fact! And how in the hell can you type that this is going to save the middle class? It is going to cost trillions and the rich can't pay for everything as we won't have any more rich people to pay! Use your head!
August 21, 2009 at 8:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scrisn (anonymous) says...
Healthcare is insane plain and simple but we don't need a socialist form of health care. With medical premiums and such I pay 1/5 of my yearly salary for this. Last year my family went 3 seperate times to doctor. and then 1 time each to the dentist. So four cleanings of teeth, and my yearly physcial, my wives ophyscial and my son had the flu. But I still paid close to $9,000 for the year. I pay $368 bi monthly for premiums health, dental, vision, std, ltd. So if I had paid cash for these services it would be less then then 1k. So where did my other 8k go? This may upset me, but I still do not want to be told how long I have to wait to get medical care. A friend I know in Canada had to wait 4 months to get an MRI on his knee just to verify he had to have surgery. Then wait another 6 months to have the surgery done. Hmm when I had surgery on my knee years ago it was all done within a week and I was rehabbing within 2 weeks. back to work full time and duty 3 weeks after the surgery. Compared to almost a year for a friend.
I feel a better plain would have been to set price restrictions no medicine, and services. When 2 extra strength Tylenol cost me $4.28 every 4 hours, or a gauze wrapping cost me $13.57 each time it was changed. There is a problem. I can buy 50 tylenol for the price of 2, and then the gauze wrap at retail is $1.29 each. A year ago I paid to have a root canal done even with insurance I had to pay over $500.00 for deductables and crap. But 1 dentist said it would cost $1,200 for the root canal another was like $800, and they were less then a mile apart. 1 was a newer practice the other established, the established was cheaper.
How many times do we go to a doctors office and they come in for 5-10 minutes and it costs 80-100 each visit? This is where 1 place if they had goverment oversight like everything else it would and could be effective.
August 21, 2009 at 8:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Winker (anonymous) says...
Has anyone given any thought as to why the insurance industry has spent close to 300 million dollar to fight reform, b/c reform will end their gravy train! Anyone who is against health care reform is a puppet for that industry; you are ignorant, sad and un-American.
I feel sorry for you people.
August 21, 2009 at 8:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarkMcKinney (anonymous) says...
Affordable, public health care is a RIGHT.
Bill Gates and a 5-year old homeless child with cancer deserve the same level of health care. Period.
If you are anti-abortion, then you MUST be pro public health care. Or do we not care about the baby's health after it comes out of the womb?
It's about the children! Walking past a dying U.S. soldier in Iraq and ignoring him is exactly like walking past a 5-yr old with cancer and ignoring them too.
So many children are suffering because their parents cannot afford health insurance.
August 21, 2009 at 8:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
MM..
Since when does a poor kid with cancer not have access to treatment in the USA?
You are uninformed!
August 21, 2009 at 8:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
RuleNumberOne (anonymous) says...
Henry Brown's response is the most incoherent I have ever seen. He's saying health care shouldn't be govt sponsored and then turns around and touts govt programs.What we need is fair and affordable insurance with reasonable medical costs. Insurance needs to be portable so when a business has layoffs, we don't lose our safety net. Today people cannot afford family insurance without subsidies; those who say that they pay for it as a priority over luxuries forget that we rely on employers to pay a huge chunk. This benefit bites deeply into what employers offer for salaries. We need to understand that the health care industry will not self-regulate. And it's in our best interest, with communicable diseases- that insurance is affordable for everyone. It's really a matter of national security.
August 21, 2009 at 8:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
singleroni (anonymous) says...
LOOK AT CASH FOR CLUNKERS, TARP, BAIL OUTS. THAT IS A MESS AND YOU THINK THE GOVT WILL DO BETTER ON HEALTH CARE
August 21, 2009 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eatmorecollards (anonymous) says...
Its not a matter of if its a right or a privilege. Health care is just to expensive.
If someone gets sick and they have a income or heath insurance, they are overcharged by the health care industry, to cover overheads and still have huge profit margins.
If after a hurricane someone charges 10 times the appropriate price of gasoline, to cover previous loses and make a huge profit, they would be jailed.
August 21, 2009 at 8:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kyjello (anonymous) says...
winker>
Kinda early for cocktails isn't it? Sounds like you are reading the democratic talking points written by Nutsi Peloski. lay off the Kool Aid and remember opposing a political view doesn't make you unAmerican, it's the American forum for discourse. Rush is on 12x3 5 days a week.
August 21, 2009 at 8:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
iopgal (anonymous) says...
WWJD Heathcare is a right. I thought
South Carolina was the buckle of the Bible Belt. Wrong! There is no compassion here.
August 21, 2009 at 9:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarkMcKinney (anonymous) says...
I think we should remove the government from our lives completely.
Let's tear up our paved roads, light posts and public schools, let our garbage stack up and close all of our libraries and the USPS.
There is NOTHING good about American government. We can all make our own decisions and I think we should have no government in America.
August 21, 2009 at 9:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nopartisan_noproblem (anonymous) says...
What I would like to know is if healthcare should be considered a "right" and a necessary survival tool, such as school, shouldn't we ALL get free food, water, clothing, shelter. Aren't these all things necessary to survive?
Why are the "poor" not made responsible for any needs in life, only luxuries? Why is the middle and upper class subject to only "free" healthcare, and not the rest of the necessities? Why aren't all people given the necessities and then you only work to make your life more luxorious? It all sounds so right and simple. Ohh yeeahh, that's called socialism. It takes away all incentive to strive for better, when regardless you are taken care of. it brings your entire society down. The harder you work, the lesser your neighbor works, you get the same thing.
I pose a serious question to all people who support free healthcare, food, housing, etc. to the people that cannot "afford" it. What if everybody decided tomorrow that they no longer wanted to work for what they had and just wanted to get by off the gov., as many do? What if every member of the middle and upper class quit their jobs and decided to live and survive as the poor do? How would we pay for this and survive as a country?
In all seriousness, please give me an answer to this question. The more I see the incentive behind education and hard-work diminish, I question my self. Should I do less, to get more? Was I set here to take care of others and others to be taken care of?
August 21, 2009 at 9:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
egret (anonymous) says...
Right or privilege? That is a debate for the intellectuals in the ivory towers. Our challenge is health care. Congress should be focusing on reducing health care costs. Like reducing medical fraud and enacting tort reform. Managing the litigious free for all where millionaire lawyers are milking the system. Cut the costs!
August 21, 2009 at 9:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scrisn (anonymous) says...
I'll agree with health reform if they mandate anyone who commits murder be public executed with 30 days of their sentence being handed down. A person who rapes another is castrated immediatlly upon conviction.
Ohh yeah and the person getting health care has to show they work 30+ hours a week and bring home a paycheck. Sit on your fat a$$ and you don't get crap.
August 21, 2009 at 9:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Keyesforpres (anonymous) says...
YOU are responsible for your health care.
Your DOCTOR is responsible for your medical care.
This bill is unconstitutional. PERIOD. This bill is evil. Burn it.
Folks, did you know senior citizens will be denied medical care??(Holland deliberately over medicates/kiling seniors without their permission).
Have any of you read about socialized medicine in other countries?? What good is having "health insurance"(government run) if you are denied medical treatment?
Under socialized medicine there are cut off ages for different types of surgeries. What right does the government have in denying you LIFE SAVING surgery?? Obama says that seniors should just take "a pain pill". Horrible.
Did you notice the folks that are so gung ho for the bill are EXEMPT from it??Congress, the pres, the unions (who have been attacking ppl at the townhall meetings.).
No one in Congress has read the bill. What right does Congress have voting on a bill they have never read??The did this with the STIM-U-LESS bill too!!
There is a provision in this bill that says the gov. will have access to our bank accts.!!
If this bill is passed, the day it is passed it will become illegal to get your own private health insurance!
If you keep your own private health insurance, you will be taxed 2.5% on your gross income!!!Above what you are already taxed!! Duh...that won't make it cheaper.
Make no mistake, this is about a government take over of our lives. Right down to every medical decision we should be making.
What we need is tort reform. This should probably happen at the state level since, technically it would be unconstitutional for Congress to handle that. Of course, it hasn't stopped them in the past!!
Republicans voted for tort reform under Bush (not our lovely Grahamnesty though). The dems voted against tort reform (lawyers are the largest contributor to the dem party).
Government needs to plow down the barrier to buying insurance across state lines. In New Jersey, only two insurance companies do business there!
Deport illegals and many will self deport. We spend billions on them yearly.
Illegals would get free coverage under this bill.
There are over 1300 insurance companies in this country. They WILL all go out of business if this passes (can you say JOBS LOST?!).
It is estimated between 80 to 100 million Americans will lose their private insurance in short order.
Obama's goal is a complete take over of your medical care. He was secretly recorded in 2003 saying he wanted a one payer system(government run) healthcare. This is about control.
My health care decisions is none of the governments business.
What medical treatment my doctor wants go give me is none of the governments business.
August 21, 2009 at 9:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
StonoMud (anonymous) says...
The Government is already deeply involved in our healthcare systems and in our whole educational systems. The cost in both of these areas are spiraling out of control. Government involvement is a major part of the problem already.
All I want out of Health care reformed is a tax deduction for personal health insurance. This way I can get the policy that I want. Not one imposed upon me by the government.
Second, I want to be able to put money in an HSA or MSA tax free without having to have a health insurance policy. This way I can provide medical funds to pay my medical bills even when I cannot afford insurance.
Third, I want all medical providers to state up front how much they are going to charge. So that I can decide for myself if the treatment is worth the cost.
Fourth, Insurance companies should be able to compete across state lines. So that I can have more choices in policies.
Fifth, I the ability to form my own groups so that I can band with people a purchase insurance together. In this way, I can freely join with others to distribute the risks among ourselves.
In short, I want to control my accesses to health care. One of the signs of being a slave is that someone ells controls your access to health care. Let us remain a free people and not slaves to the goverment.
August 21, 2009 at 9:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarkMcKinney (anonymous) says...
Scott, people are denied access to doctors every day. Think of the children!
August 21, 2009 at 9:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Keyesforpres (anonymous) says...
Here are some of the things in this evil, unconstitutional bill:
Pg 16 of the HC Bill MANDATES you cannot keep your private plan if you don't have your private plan on or before the first day" of the year the legislation becomes law. Those who currently have private individual coverage won't be able to change it. Those who leave a company to work for themselves can no longer buy individual plans from private carriers.
Pg 22 of the HC Bill MANDATES the Govt will audit books of ALL EMPLOYERS that self insure through private plans!!
Pg 30 Sec 123 of HC bill - THERE WILL BE A GOVT COMMITTEE that decides what treatments/benefitss you get
Pg 29 lines 4-16 in the HC bill - YOUR HEALTHCARE IS RATIONED!!!
Pg 42 of HC Bill - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose UR HC Benefits 4 you. U have no choice!
PG 50 Section 152 in HC bill - HC will be provided to ALL non-US citizens, illegal or otherwise
Pg 58HC Bill - Govt will have real-time access to individuals finances & a National ID Healthcard will b issued!
Pg 59 HC Bill lines 21-24 Govt will have direct access 2 ur banks accts 4 elect. funds transfer
PG 65 Sec 164 is a payoff subsidized plan for retirees and their families in Unions & community orgs (ACORN & Americorp).
Pg 72 Lines 8-14 Govt is creating an HC Exchange 2 bring priv HC plans under Govt control.
PG 84 Sec 203 HC bill - Govt mandates ALL benefit pkgs 4 priv. HC plans in the Exchange
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs for of Benefit Levels for Plans = The Govt will ration ur Healthcare!
PG 91 Lines 4-7 HC Bill - Govt mandates linguistic approp svcs. Example - Translation 4 illegal aliens
Pg 95 HC Bill Lines 8-18 The Govt will use groups i.e., ACORN & Americorps to sign up indiv. for Govt HC plan
PG 85 Line 7 HC Bill - Specs of Ben Levels 4 Plans. #AARP members - U Health care WILL b rationed (find out about the senior death discount- you'll throw up)
-PG 102 Lines 12-18 HC Bill - Medicaid Eligible Indiv. will b automat.enrolled in Medicaid. No choice
pg 124 lines 24-25 HC No company can sue GOVT on price fixing. No "judicial review" against Govt Monop
pg 127 Lines 1-16 HC Bill - The Govt will tell Doctors/ #AMA what u can make.
Pg 145 Line 15-17 An Employer MUST auto enroll employees into pub opt plan. NO CHOICE
Pg 126 Lines 22-25 Employers MUST pay for HC for part time employees AND their families.
Pg 149 Lines 16-24 ANY Emplyr w payroll 400k & above who does not prov. pub opt. pays 8% tax on all payroll
pg 150 Lines 9-13 Biz w payroll btw 251k & 400k who doesnt prov. pub. opt pays 2-6% tax on all payroll
Pg 167 Lines 18-23 ANY individual who doesn't have acceptable HC accrdng 2 Govt will be taxed 2.5% of inc
Pg 170 Lines 1-3 HC Bill Any NONRESIDENT Alien is exempt from indiv. taxes. (Americans will pay)
Pg 195 HC Bill -officers & employees of HC Admin (GOVT) will have access 2 ALL Americans finan/pers recs
August 21, 2009 at 9:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
gringo sez:
"It's about the fact that middle class Americans like you won't be able to afford health care costs in 5-10 years."
Prove it. More rhetoric passed off as fact by the kool aid drinkers.
It's a privilege, read the constitution and find me a provision about free health care.
While we are it more trite sayings, "You get what you pay for" and "there is no free lunch" or the best "I'm from the government..."
Thinking is fundamental...
You folks sound like the kid who has a "right" to drive.
August 21, 2009 at 9:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scrisn (anonymous) says...
Funny thing insurance companies spent over 52 million dollars to fight reform. I wonder how they got all that profit?... hmm Now i know wher emy 8k went :)
August 21, 2009 at 9:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Keyesforpres (anonymous) says...
Some more things in the bill:
PG 203 Line 14-15 HC - "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax" Yes, it says that
Pg 239 Line 14-24 HC Bill Govt will reduce physician svcs 4 Medicaid. Seniors, low income, poor affected
Pg 241 Line 6-8 HC Bill - Doctors, doesn't matter what specialty u have, you'll all be paid the same
PG 253 Line 10-18 Govt sets value of Dr's time, prof judg, etc. Literally value of humans.
PG 265 Sec 1131Govt mandates & controls productivity for private HC industries
PG 268 Sec 1141 Fed Govt regulates rental & purchase of power driven wheelchairs
PG 272 SEC. 1145. TREATMENT OF CERTAIN CANCER HOSPITALS - Cancer patients - welcome to rationing!
Page 280 Sec 1151 The Govt will penalize hospitals for what Govt deems preventable readmissions.
Pg 298 Lines 9-11 Drs, treat a patient during initial admiss that results in a readmiss-Govt will penalize u.
Pg 317 L 13-20 OMG!! PROHIBITION on ownership/investment. Govt tells Drs. what/how much they can own.
Pg 317-318 lines 21-25,1-3 PROHIBITION on expansion- Govt is mandating hospitals cannot expand
pg 321 2-13 Hospitals have oppt to apply for exception BUT community input required. Can u say ACORN?!!
Pg335 L 16-25 Pg 336-339 - Govt mandates estab. of outcome based measures. HC the way they want. Rationing
Pg 341 Lines 3-9 Govt has authority 2 disqual Medicare Adv Plans, HMOs, etc. Forcing peeps in2 Govt plan
Pg 354 Sec 1177 - Govt will RESTRICT enrollment of Special needs ppl! WTF. My sis has down syndrome!!
Pg 379 Sec 1191 Govt creates more bureaucracy - Telehealth Advisory Cmtte. Can u say HC by phone?
PG 425 Lines 4-12 Govt mandates Advance Care Planning Consult. Think Senior Citizens end of life
Pg 425 Lines 17-19 Govt will instruct & consult regarding living wills, durable powers of atty. Mandatory!
PG 425 Lines 22-25, 426 Lines 1-3 Govt provides apprvd list of end of life resources, guiding u in death
PG 427 Lines 15-24 Govt mandates program 4 orders 4 end of life. The Govt has a say in how ur life ends
Pg 429 Lines 1-9 An "adv. care planning consult" will b used frequently as patients health deteriorates
PG 429 Lines 10-12 "adv. care consultation" may incl an ORDER 4 end of life plans. AN ORDER from GOV
Pg 429 Lines 13-25 - The govt will specify which Doctors can write an end of life order.
PG 430 Lines 11-15 The Govt will decide what level of treatment u will have at end of life
Pg 469 - Community Based Home Medical Services=Non profit orgs. Hello, ACORN Medical Svcs here!!?
Page 472 Lines 14-17 PAYMENT TO COMMUNITY-BASED ORG. 1 monthly payment 2 a community-based org. Like ACORN?
PG 489 Sec 1308 The Govt will cover Marriage & Family therapy. Which means they will insert Govt into your marriage
Pg 494-498 Govt will cover Mental Health Svcs including defining, creating, rationing those svcs
August 21, 2009 at 9:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
So you're in favor of cutting off your nose to spite your face, nonpartisan? Have fun ponying up $36k per year in health costs for you and your family by 2019.
The tort reform argument is such a hoax, too many of you have been brainwashed into thinking this is the be all end all solution to rising health care costs. Yeah, right. Insurance companies have posted record profits.
How can you blindly trust the greedy, corrupt insurance companies to say, "ok, we're paying out less in law suits. Let's pass some savings along to some of the middle class suckers in Charleston!"
haha, year right. If you believe that, I know a jewish fella that's got a great investment deal up in NY, offering 25% returns....
August 21, 2009 at 9:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
nopartisan - You ask what's the incentive to work if you can get healthcare for free regardless. I believe my earlier post addresses your question.
We should adopt a system in which every American has access to preventative and basic maintenance healthcare either through private insurance or a gov't plan. This is ethical, humane, and would improve our country's vitality all around.
If you want more than the basics, more bells and whistles to your healthcare, you'd better work for it. As an example, a previous poster compared the care he received in the U.S. for his diagnosis and treatment for an ailing knee to a friend's in Canada. Long story short, his care was more prompt than that of his Canuck friend. You want non-emergent and elective care real fast? You work hard to be able to afford it. Otherwise, you accept the slow boat to recovery through the gov't plan.
I believe this is the best plan.
I liken it to our need for food. Sure, I could quit my job and live off of food stamps. It would sustain me. But, boy, I sure like good beer and an occasional steak. So I continue to work, and work hard.
Same for healthcare.
August 21, 2009 at 9:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
RuleNumberOne (anonymous) says...
Looks like all of the Dick Armey Freedom Works talking points are covered. Senior citizens already benefit under socialized medicine, and they're fighting tooth and nail to keep it. It's a Republican lie that they will be denied care or be subjected to death panels. As for conutries with govt programs, I see no rush to end them. And people are denied access to care every day. By their own insurance companies who post massive profits while limiting care options and allowing accountants to practice the medicine our doctors need to be leading.
August 21, 2009 at 9:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Keyesforpres (anonymous) says...
Folks, what it boils down to is the government is going to take away your health care and RATION it back to you!
What amazes me is how everyone screamed under Bush that the Patriot Act was taking away our Civil Rights (one of the phone calls had to be coming from overseas from a suspected terrorists). Yet, not a peep from these ppl regarding this complete CIVIL RIGHTS stealer!!
Think about it. The government will come between you and your doctor at every turn. Sorry, but I think I can run my life better than the government can.
Please, stick to your Constitutional duties...protect us from invasion, which they are not doing. Maintain a strong defense is necessary for that along with securing the borders. Not doing either one of those!!
The other duty is to help with interstate commerce. I believe that would fall under maintaining our roads and ports.
I can't find anything in the Constitution that says the government has a right to decide my fate.
Yes, costs have gotten too high, but the main reason for that is toooooo much gov't intervention!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have the actual link to the bill I could post, but I don't know if the paper would want me to post it. It takes awhile for it to load.
Remember, NO ONE in Congress has read this bill.
August 21, 2009 at 9:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
Marky Mark
What is Medicaid what is SCHIP? Wake the heck up.
August 21, 2009 at 9:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
did I see a post a few minutes back where he said "lay off the kool aid" in one breath, and with another talked about Rush the pill popper in another? If you don't think that listening to that gas bag is drinking the kool aid as well, then you are delusional. I hope you aren't operating heavy machinery today.
August 21, 2009 at 9:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
blacman (anonymous) says...
where is the voice of reason on healthcare? Didn't we as a nation elect the president to make changes he promised? Now the pubbies and the right wingers are stealing his thunder at town hall (hooligan) meetings, tv commercials, and even in an ad in the P&C last night. If it means socialism to achieve the goals our trusted leaders are endorsing to save precious lives and limbs so be it. In one of the earlier posts someone asked if Bill gates was entitled to better health care than a broke 5 yr. old. The obvious answer is of course not; that why we fought 2 world wars.
August 21, 2009 at 9:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
High_Gravity (anonymous) says...
Private healthcare is great. They should privatize the Police and Fire department too. If my cat is stuck in a tree, I'll be damned if I should have to wait 30 extra minutes for the FD to putting some "Public" fire down the road. Damn socialists with their schools, police, and fire dept!
August 21, 2009 at 9:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
Again thee Amazing Gringo knows all and sees all. I'll be paying what 36K? You know this for sure? Facts dude, not rhetoric, heresay and kool aid. It may satisfy your meager requirements for facts but not I. I get what i pay for. If you really trust the government to take care of you, get ready for minimum health care, where and when to get it when they say you can have it unless its an emergency. If its an emergency of the life threating kind you will always be seen at an emergency room. Get some facts of just go away. Have something other than OB, MoveOn/DNC, or Huffington post talking points. Thinking is fundamental.
Keyes for pres, good find. Facts that folks like gringo can't refute but they can try the same old scare tactics that where a favorite of the other administration.
August 21, 2009 at 9:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
combahee (anonymous) says...
Who are these guys kidding. Some like Brown say a voucher should be given for Medicare and the elderly should have to buy their insurance on the open market!
That has to be the most asinine remark I have ever heard.
First of all insurance companies are profit making companies. They charge extra premiums to make these profits. The have real incentives to NOT cover procedures and tests and real incentives to not write policies and deny coverage for pre-existing conditions. All of which are happening with every policy out there now!
Lets compare health insurance with flood insurance. Great parallel.
Back in the 1960's and 1970's the insurance companies decided they didn't want to offer flood coverage any longer. So they either dropped out of the market or the few left in the market raised rates to the point no one could afford insurance. Tens of millions of families would be left with no coverage. From Florida to Missouri to Minnesota to Texas.
So the Federal Government stepped in. While not an absolute perfect system it allowed all to buy the insurance needed. This is what should happen with health insurance.
Without proper health care we the people, will suffer, all of us.
I wonder how many of those white haired folks screaming at the town hall meetings would protest if the Government dropped Medicare. After all if they didn't save enough to afford the coverage should they have a right to it?
Should we be paying for Henry Brown or Jim Demint's health insurance? How about the underpaid staff worker for Demint?
This isn't about entitlements. This is about extending decent health care and insurance to ALL the citizens of the nation. This isn't about socialism. We aren't going the way of Nazi Germany, despite what Rush says.
Can't wait to see the reaction of one of our congressmen when they are denied coverage for a pre-existing condition or their child is denied coverage for no good reason.
A totally free enterprise system does not and never did work. Don't kid yourself, it never did. When business is allowed to run rampant they ultimately shoot themself in the foot. Just look at the mortgage crisis, banks failing, AIG failed, brokerage firms shut down for fraud.
Wake up people, smell the real coffee.
August 21, 2009 at 9:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
serenitynow (anonymous) says...
When people quit putting profit over ethics, then we might be ready for such a debate.
August 21, 2009 at 9:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Keyesforpres (anonymous) says...
Actually, this bill would phase out Medicare. And although there isn't technically a death panel, there is a provision in the bill where you are required by law to have end of life discussion with your doctor. What business does the government have in telling you that??
Obama was asked about that and his flippant response was they wouldn't have enough gov't employees to enforce the provision on everyone. Huh???
Thousands come here for medical treatment because they are denied TREATMENT in their countries. If the government is granted the power to tell us no that is the end.
If your insurance company tells you "NO" you can fight it or work something out with your doctor. I'll take working something out with my doctor.
I met a woman who had a rare form of cancer and no insurance. The doctor treated her anyway and forgave her her debt. Under Obama care she would have been DENIED TREATMENT because of her age. The end.
We have free clinics in this country for the poor and government safety nets already in place. Heck, how many illegals walze into our emergency rooms for treatment of nonemergencies? No one is turned away. It is why over 80 hospitals have closed out West.
I don't want the government messing in my personal life. Why are so many of you willing to throw it all away and let the government lead you around by the nose?? This is it for our freedoms if this bill passes. Sorry if that offends anyone (not really).
August 21, 2009 at 9:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
You may have logged onto the wrong page, Gatorbait. The comment forum for 5th graders may be more suitable for you and your butt buddies BlackRain oh i mean "KeyesforPres" oh i mean 30 other user names.
Do you deny the fundamental fact that healthcare costs are forecast to skyrocket, while middle class wages will likely remain stagnant for the next 5-10 years? If you are in denial about this basic fact, I can't help you, "dude". Maybe you should go comatose like your idol "Limbaughmessiah" and start smoking oxycontin. It wouldn't be much of a stretch because it appears you're already living in a distorted reality.
August 21, 2009 at 9:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
maeko (anonymous) says...
McKinney..."it's for the children!" "do it for the children!" "what about the children?!" the children! the children...
just stop it. how many evils have been peddled by hanging them on the halos of the doey-eyed children?
one's ability to procreate and the fruits of such are not legitimite reasons for societal change. you sound like the town-crier. might as well be crying for "the old", "the healthy", "the criminal", "the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker!" we ALL count. we all must live with each other. consequences can be long term and far reaching. going beyond the time when today's innocent child is no longer such.
August 21, 2009 at 9:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
"I met a woman who had a rare form of cancer and no insurance. The doctor treated her anyway and forgave her her debt. Under Obama care she would have been DENIED TREATMENT because of her age. The end."
LMAO, is this really your argument? What a d-bag you are turning out to be, keyesforpres.
Cool, let's all cancel our insurance and hope that the doctors will just FORGIVE OUR DEBTS and medical bills!!
Brilliant idea, "keyesforpres"!
lmfao
Hey "keyesforpres", can you do a search and find the cost of covering the uninsured? In other words, people are rarely denied treatment. But someone has to pay; we do, you flip wad! In the form of increased premiums.
August 21, 2009 at 9:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
"just stop it. how many evils have been peddled by hanging them on the halos of the doey-eyed children?"
Kind of like the evils peddled and profits made (and over 4,000 dead US servicemen as well) using the excuse of WMD's......
Oh, but we will be welcomed as liberators! Still waiting for that to happen!
August 21, 2009 at 9:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarkMcKinney (anonymous) says...
Somebody please explain to me why I paid $78 for a small tube of Ben Gay in the hospital?
Five-bucks for an aspirin?
August 21, 2009 at 9:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarkMcKinney (anonymous) says...
BTW Maeko, you just fell for the oldest trick in the book: Bait & Switch.
August 21, 2009 at 9:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bill1776 (anonymous) says...
ONE OF THE REASONS HEALTH CARE IS SO HIGH IS THE DOCTORS FIND OUT HOW MUCH THE INSURANCE IS PAYING AND MAKE THEIR PRICE HIGHER TO FORCE THE INSURANCE UP.
GOVERNMENT HEALTH CARE IS ABOUT MORE GOVERNMENT! YOU GET THE PROGRAM AND THEY GET THE GOVERNMENT. A GOVERNMENT THAT CAN GIVE YOU EVERYTHING CAN ALSO TAKE EVERYTHING AWAY INCLUDING YOUR LIFE.
August 21, 2009 at 9:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tc1 (anonymous) says...
"using the excuse of WMD's......"
Come on! You can be against Iraq for many reasons. BUT, that slam against Bush has been clearly proved invalid to crucify him. Hundreds of hours of audio and video showing Many DEMOCRAT Liberal leaders of the highest rank, other countries, the UN and on and on saying Iraq HAD WMD, for years before Bush took office, and needed to be Stopped!
It is hard for me to believe you don't know that VMI!
August 21, 2009 at 10:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
wow...take the caps lock off, man.
August 21, 2009 at 10:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eatmorecollards (anonymous) says...
The P&C would do good if they sent a reporter out to locate the Chief Financial Officer of St Francis Hospital (listed as not for profit). Ask for a financial statement of where the money is going, salaries, expenses, a full accounting.
Its something I would like to see.
August 21, 2009 at 10:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
tc, I do know that. However, they pushed the issue harder and harder, very impatiently it seemed to enter Iraq. Now it all makes sense- Halliburton/KBR with their no-bid contracts, wanting a permanent US presence in the middle east.
It had nothing to do with WMD's tc- that was the Cheney regime's excuse. If they didn't have the WMD's to use, they would have used human rights or something like that to invade. True, alot democrats voted to invade- but I believe that they were all sold a bill of goods.
August 21, 2009 at 10:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Winker (anonymous) says...
I thought I would make it a little easier for the insurance industry puppets that are posting from your Rush/Faux news, RNC provided talking points. By reading your posts I see that you are simpletons with little to no education so I thought pictures might help you understand what this debate is really about. So here are some easy to view illustrations for the nay-sayers out there, there is a little reading involved so lets us know if you are having problems as we know you have trouble with that..
http://www.slideshare.net/danroam/hea...
August 21, 2009 at 10:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
I had very good friends and classmates die over there so Cheney's portfolio could increase just a little bit. This hits very close to home with me, and Cheney and Rumsfeld should be held accountable. Bush was a pawn- he didn't know any better.
August 21, 2009 at 10:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
flinsc (anonymous) says...
I am only posting this to make a point. We should be grateful that our founding fathers did not have the internet. They would have sat on their back ends all day and post on boards and comments instead of actually getting out and making this country.
Until "We the People" actually get out and do something, we will keep getting steamrolled. Go ahead, sit at your computer and keep posting. If you really care, things would be happening, that would make the Founding Fathers proud.
August 21, 2009 at 10:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
chasnative74 (anonymous) says...
I find it interesting that so many of these people say that the government should not be deciding things for them and they should have a choice. If so, then:
A woman should be able to decide for herself to have an abortion.
A gay/lesbian couple should be able to decide for themselves to get married.
A person with life threating disease should be able to decide for themselves if they want to end their life with the help of a doctor.
The list could go on.......
August 21, 2009 at 10:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dieselman2000 (anonymous) says...
gringo - "How can you blindly trust the greedy, corrupt insurance companies to say, "ok, we're paying out less in law suits. Let's pass some savings along to some of the middle class suckers in Charleston!""
I trust them about as much as I can trust the power hungry, Republic crushing, tax evading, womanizing, lying, stealing, war mongering, fear instilling, out to get the rich, got to bail em out...H of Reps and Senate dems and repubs currently defrauding the US populace.
August 21, 2009 at 10:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
all fair points, chasnative. Hypocrisy is rampant. Of course those hypocrites are also the ones that think you can "catch the gay" from hanging out with gays or lesbian. Or we can send them to "straight camp". That's the funniest of all.
August 21, 2009 at 10:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
I can't argue with that, dieselman. So what should we do? Secede from society and go live in a yurt village out west?
August 21, 2009 at 10:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tc1 (anonymous) says...
I am encouraged by the poll results for this story. But also somewhat surprised by the lopsided results. There is "hope" for 2010.
August 21, 2009 at 10:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
you really shouldn't be surprised by that poll, tc1. It's like a poll on WTMA- most listeners are conservative. I would venture to say that most posters here are conservative. It's not a true cross section, where I saw a poll today where it's about 50-50.
August 21, 2009 at 10:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tc1 (anonymous) says...
Have to agree vmirat90. But what was that 50-50 poll a month ago when All of this Unread and Undiscussed bill had to be passed Before August or Certain Catastrophe would result? Allow me to feel a little more relieved. :)
August 21, 2009 at 10:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
I will give it to you, tc1- at least you are rational and respectful in disagreeing- that is admirable. I try to be, unless some tool attacks me, then I go on the offensive. Show me respect, and you will get it back, and vice-versa.
I'm not sure this is the right bill, but something needs to be done. It's a train wreck the way it stands. I was out of work last year for a few months, and my former employer's insurance company sent me the renewal form- $600/month for just me to stay insured! And that was bare to the bones coverage. That's completely insane, and I don't know who can afford that. It must be overhauled.
August 21, 2009 at 10:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mypointofview (anonymous) says...
MarkMcKinney (anonymous) says...
Somebody please explain to me why I paid $78 for a small tube of Ben Gay in the hospital?
Five-bucks for an aspirin?
I will explain it...those with insurance pay more to fund those who are uninsured. Pretty simple concept, really.
August 21, 2009 at 10:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nopartisan_noproblem (anonymous) says...
I just couldn't let this one get lost in the pack.
blacman (anonymous) says...
"If it means socialism to achieve the goals our trusted leaders are endorsing to save precious lives and limbs so be it."
Wow Blacman, Woooowwww!!! How do you argue with that. Why do you live in this country again? Venezuela probably wouldn't be a bad spot for you. Blacman Chavez, does have a ring to it.
August 21, 2009 at 10:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
YouKnowMe (anonymous) says...
The "haves" keep their stuff by keeping the "have nots" from having the same stuff the "haves" already have.
Yep, try to figure that one out....and if you do....you'll have your answer to why anyone would be opposed to the RIGHT of health care.
August 21, 2009 at 10:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MindBath (anonymous) says...
blacman/MarkMcKinney: "In one of the earlier posts someone asked if Bill gates was entitled to better health care than a broke 5 yr. old. The obvious answer is of course not."
While we're at it, why is Bill Gates "entitled" to a multimillion dollar mansion when this 5 year-old is homeless? Come on, follow me down this path and let's see where it leads...
August 21, 2009 at 10:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MANDO (anonymous) says...
People "have" because they worked for it-- it's a shame they have to share with the "have-nots" because they put more work into it. Health care is a privledge, like a drivers license. If I want it, I have to earn it. Why should I have to pay for myself and someone else? It seems the "have-nots" always have their hand out and rarely become a "have". I am neither-- I am barely making it and am sick of those who habitual "have-nots" getting a better advantage than me and jealous of the "haves" who are better off than me.
I'll be the first to say it again, it's the Usual Suspects draining our system!
August 21, 2009 at 11:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bill1776 (anonymous) says...
THE POST AND COURIER SAID. THAT THE ONLY CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATE FROM SOUTH CARLINA THAT DIDN'T RESPOND ON THE HEALTH CARE ISSUER WAS LINDSEY GRAHAM. GOOD LINDSEY GRAHAM HAS HOOF AND MOUTH DISEASE EVERY TIME HE OPENS HIS MOUTH HE PUTS HIS FOOT IN IT. WE CAN THANK LINDSEY GRAHAM FOR GETTING RADICAL JUDGE SOTOMAYOR CONFIRMED. IF IT WASN'T FOR LINDSEY GRAHAM SHE WOULD HAVE BEEN STOPPED IN COMMITTEE. IT TAKES ONE VOTE FROM THE MINORITY IN THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE TO STOP DEBATE ON THE SUBJECT AND BRING IT TO A VOTE. LINDSEY GRAHAM GAVE RADICAL JUDGE SOTOMAYOR THAT ONE VOTE.
August 21, 2009 at 11:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarkMcKinney (anonymous) says...
Well, I hardly think that Bill Gates is "entitled" to a multimillion dollar mansion. Republicans would tell you that is capitalism at work. And the 5-yr old homeless kid is just a fact of life. "Get over it" they say.
August 21, 2009 at 11:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
YouKnowMe (anonymous) says...
Because one day you could be the have nots.........but then you will come up with a reason why you deserve it more than any other human.
Selfish people suck, until they become needy, then they deserve it.
Remember how you define a society....I know what I want it to say about America......What do you want it to say?
August 21, 2009 at 11:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Keyesforpres (anonymous) says...
This is a great article explaining about federal law that allows states to ban crossing state lines to buy insurance.
http://www.humanevents.com/article.ph...
has run some great articles the past few weeks regarding all this. Columinst Connie Hair in particular has some outstanding articles.
August 21, 2009 at 11:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nopartisan_noproblem (anonymous) says...
Through his hard work, determination, and innovation, time, risk, and success, Bill Gates is more than entitled to anything he has EARNED and attained.
August 21, 2009 at 11:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
YouKnowMe (anonymous) says...
Hey BILL, you may want to look at the count on Sonya.......it wouldn't have mattered one way or the other if Graham voted or not.
We should at least be happy the Graham actually thinks for himself instead of walking lock step with the rest of the "NO" party.
August 21, 2009 at 11:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tc1 (anonymous) says...
I have no strong feelings about the best solution. I do lean to some version of a Health Savings Account. The reason being IMO that there really isn't a motive for the consumer to shop insurance or services today. There is a small copay for most and that is it, insurance pays the rest. There is, in most cases, no reason for the consumer to pay any attention to the billing detail. Heck my insurer (BC/BS) doesnt even bother giving the detail for what they paid my doctor just that they paid this amount. If there was an incentive like keeping more of your own money the consumer would and shoud keep everyone in line as much as is possible. I mean the human animal has always been proven to find a loophole, a way arond, an advantage.
There is no "silver bullet" answer. But for all the cursing of Big ______ (insert demon here) profits, based on history of both parties I find no reason to believe that those in government with their obvious top objective of staying in power, Their Profit, I will be better off with government taking over.
August 21, 2009 at 11:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarkMcKinney (anonymous) says...
Well, thank god Gates is a good man and not selfish with his money, like many other Republicans. He is a good humanitarian.
August 21, 2009 at 11:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
I will say it again....dude, take the caps lock off!!!
August 21, 2009 at 11:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kyjello (anonymous) says...
youknowme>
Ist day with your new brain? Take it back you are entitled to a full refund, it ain't working. The day I beome a "have not", I'll work harder, work longer, get a second job, or sell my sculpted body so artists can create masterpieces; now that the American way.
August 21, 2009 at 11:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColdBud (anonymous) says...
gringolandia, your assumptions are incorrect. You assume that middle class citizens like me won't be able to afford health care in 10 or 15 years. Yes, I am firmly middle class, but at 46 years old, I've taken the necessary steps to ensure that my health care is taken care of and not a concern of mine going forward. Not a concern unless this Congress and this Administration screw it all up... which I fear they may.
BTW, I didn't need $4500 dollars from the government in order to purchase a new car either. I have a 2006, a 2007 and a 2009 already. I've also paid all of my mortgage payments on time every month with no assistance from the taxpayers. I buy my groceries, and yes, cold Bud Light, with money out of my pay check, not with some piece of paper or credit card that transfers money from taxpayer's wallets to my own.
I'm not sure which "middle class" you are a part of, but it's obviously NOT the same middle class I am part of. This Congress and this Administration has done NOTHING BUT take my money and give it to those that don't deserve it.
I'm all for helping those that physically cannot help themselves do to reasons beyond their control (I.E. disabled vets) but I am tired of helping freeloading losers.
Regulate the health care industry if need be. Puts caps on costs for procedures and medicines. We did it to the phone companies.. we did it to the oil companies. I'm not a fan a government regulation, but I'd prefer that to shifting the financial burden for your health care to my wallet.
August 21, 2009 at 11:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
"I've taken the necessary steps to ensure that my health care is taken care of and not a concern of mine going forward"
conspicuously vague, coldbeer. I'm smelling ex-military here. Good for you, you're taken care of. Don't get on a high horse b/c your insurance is paid for. The majority of Americans aren't on the military dole.
"This Congress and this Administration has done NOTHING BUT take my money and give it to those that don't deserve it."
Really? Please elaborate.
August 21, 2009 at 11:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarkMcKinney (anonymous) says...
Affordable, accessible, public health care is a human RIGHT!
August 21, 2009 at 11:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TraumaDoc (anonymous) says...
To those who constantly hold up other countries socialized medicine programs, particularly Canada, as examples: Dr. Anne Doig, incoming head of the Canadian health care system, said that their system is "imploding" and they are modifying to more private care. Dr. Brian Day, the previous head of the Canadian system just said last night, in a television interview, that one sixth of Canadians have no or limited access to primary care physicians. He also said in a country of about thirty three million people, currently one million are waiting for surgery or waiting to see a specialist referral. He stated that there is definite rationing of care in their system as a cost-saving measure. Control of access to both primary care and to specialists is a very effective way to control costs. You hear a lot of anecdotal information about Canada's system but these are two physician leaders with real knowledge of how their system works.
Whether health care is a right is pertinent to discuss because it determines whether there is a government obligation to provide it.
August 21, 2009 at 11:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarkMcKinney (anonymous) says...
"This Congress and this Administration has done NOTHING BUT take my money..."
Take a gander at some simple graphs and you will see SPIKES in our debt over the past 5 Republican administrations.
Republicans = Big Government.
The Dems spend money much wiser than Repubs.
August 21, 2009 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
YouKnowMe (anonymous) says...
ky must be one of Harold's "good friends"! Sculpted from what crap?
I have health care for myself and my family, but I am not so selfish as to walk past humans that are suffering......but hey ky - why don't you jell up with harold....we won't miss you!
August 21, 2009 at 11:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chilldiesel83 (anonymous) says...
I am not sure why everyone bashes the insurance companies and there supposedly huge profits. I just know from my own personal experience my premiums are like 150.00 a month but I have 8 million in lifetime coverage and if im in a wreck and the ambulance is called that is going to cost my insurance company 15,000 and if I get an MRI and stay one night in the hospital you are looking at a 20,000 dollar bill for them. If insurance companies did not exist at all, I certainly wouldnt be able to afford things like that, unless they invented some HSA with a 2000% interest rate attached to it!!! I think the real problem is that procedures and medicine cost way too much. Only the government can print money and run itself with a defict and is immune to bankruptcy court. I am not defending the insurance companies because they are sleeze balls with all of these conditions and everything and not paying claims and it needs to be seriously and i mean seriously dealt with and changed, but it not like they are out there denying every single person who applies and every single claim that comes in. One of the best laws that could be passed by Congress, although it wont ever happen, and I mean never, but would be to amend the constitution that requires all federal agencies and all federal government programs to be able to run without a deficit. Meaning they would have to follow the same rules as the people of America and businesses that operate here. The law should also include some kind of provision that bans tax increases on anybody just to pay for a defict. They should be required to make cuts or change business practices if they go bankrupt and not just print more money.
One question though, if we do get a government plan and we are screwed out of a procedure or something, will we be allowed to sue the Federal Government??? The answer is no, we will just be cast aside and given our little red pill or blue pill, whichever is cheaper at the time....
August 21, 2009 at 11:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bobbyonetooth (anonymous) says...
If people without access to health care have infectious diseases and walk around Charleston untreated I'm screwed.
August 21, 2009 at 11:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarkMcKinney (anonymous) says...
bobbyonetooth (anonymous) says...
"If people without access to health care have infectious diseases and walk around Charleston untreated I'm screwed."
EXACTLY!
August 21, 2009 at 11:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
(cont'd to ColdBud)
Who do you think currently pays for healthcare for those that have been denied coverage or otherwise do not have coverage?
Do you think healthcare for these people is free? Don't be in denial about the costs (to those of us that pay insurance premiums...yourself excluded) due to flaws in the current system.
You should try not to have such a self-centered view. I understand you're concerned about taxes, but don't oversimplify the situation. The problem is much more than welfare and handouts to black people (as many on here like to argue). Healthcare costs are bankrupting the middle class. Hard working US citizens can't get coverage and health decisions are controlled and dictated by insurance providers.
You're out of touch with reality and selfishly smug with your government provided health insurance. Your opinions may be viewed by many as largely irrelevant, ColdBud
August 21, 2009 at 11:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
maeko (anonymous) says...
McKinney...don't follow you...what was baited and switched?
August 21, 2009 at 11:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LuckyDay (anonymous) says...
“Right” vs. “privilege” is a false choice. Do I have a right to us a paved road to get to my job? Do I have a right to clean drinking water? These are not in the Bill of Rights. They are valuable products that we the people have decided will make us better off. And we the people have also decided that the government is more efficient in their production. The provision of healthcare is a technical issue that should be decided on the basis of who can provide something valuable in the most efficient way. It is a debate worth having because, at this time, the United States is less efficient than any other developed nation. We use 17% of our GDP to deliver an inferior product. The next closest nation is Switzerland and they use 11% of their GDP to provide healthcare to a larger fraction of their population
August 21, 2009 at 11:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MarkMcKinney (anonymous) says...
Maeko,
I agree with you...the "Do it for the children" is the oldest cop-out in the book. Republicans use it all the time in the abortion debate.
Abortion and public health care are directly related. Anyone who is anti-abortion should also believe that universal health care is a fundamental right. Children AND adults. Or do we loose the compassion once they are out of the womb?
You say we are all EQUAL...couldn't agree more. That is why public health care is so important now.
August 21, 2009 at 11:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
real_news (anonymous) says...
Republicans being against Universal health care just proves to all as to what Utter Lunatics they are.
You want to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt to a Republican or Dem who is against Universal (Single payer) Health Care as to what Lunatics they are THEN ask them would they want the Police, the Fire Department, the Military, the Courts of law, etc. NOT operated on a Single payer basis as they are now? That is would they want the Police, the Fire Department, the Military etc. operated on a for profit basis so that only for example those who have a Fire insurance can call the Fire department to put out their Fire? Their answer would be NO, since that would be against the well being of the Society since then a Fire in an uninsured house could burn down the whole city block if not the whole city, which means then by their definition that is Socialism since we are operating the Fire department on a single payer (Universal) basis. BTW it used to be that few 100 years ago that in some cities Fire protection was provided exactly on that model, that is you would buy Fire insurance protection from private companies who would then put a cast iron plate on your house indicating that you are protected by XYZ Fire insurance company, so when there was fire in a house that was not protected against Fire insurance or it was protected by a different fire insurance company than the one that showed up to put the fire out then that house would burn down and too often take the whole city block and often the whole city with it, all because few 100 years ago some people were so brain dead and so corrupt, as are all Republicans and many Democrats still today, that they do not face the fact that for the better good of all we better operate the Fire department on a Single payer (aka Socialized) basis.
So go ahead and prove to yourself and a Republican what brain dead lunatics they are by asking them ARE THEY or ARE THEY NOT for the single payer (which means Tax payer supported) Police, Fire department, Military, etc. organization that we have. IF they say that they want to operate the Military, Fire, Police on private basis and not on single payer Tax supported as we do now, THEN they prove what lying lunatics they are, since then US Military would become 1/100th of the size it is now and Fires would be burning through out US cities AND IF they say they are for the current single payer (Tax payer supported) system which we have now for Fire, Police, Military, Courts of law, etc. THEN again they prove what lunatics they are since they are against single payer for health care.
Due to lack of space here, U can read much more in this regard here:
www.anoox.com/blog/uhc
August 21, 2009 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chilldiesel83 (anonymous) says...
bobbyonetooth (anonymous) says...
"If people without access to health care have infectious diseases and walk around Charleston untreated I'm screwed."
EXACTLY!
Obviously you nor anyone else has seen commericals on TV. Nason Medical Center!!!!!!! Everybody has access to healthcare, you walk into any ER you cannot be turned away. That doesnt mean you get the advanced cancer treatment trial offer stage options. However there are laws that prohibit anyone from being denied emergency medical care. Now only if those people did have insurance and were going to doctors for checkups on a regular basis then the need for that emergency care would be drastically reduced. I dont mind paying for those that cannot afford because of their status in life, but the ones that can work but choose not too bc they are freeloaders or lazy... That is like slapping us taxpayers in the face so consider the favor returned. I understand that this is not the majority of the poor either. The Army, McDonalds and Walmart are always hiring and all three of those offer health benefits... Nuff Said
August 21, 2009 at 11:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TraumaDoc (anonymous) says...
If the government has to provide health care because it is a "right": That means if you choose to become a heroin addict, all the people who aren't addicts have to pay for your treatment. If you eat your way to 600 pounds, all the exercising, healthy-eating normal weight folks pay for your care. If you pop out 16 babies because you don't like birth control, the government provides your obstetrics care each time you deliver. If you don't wear your seat belt or drive while drinking, all the safe drivers pay for your injuries after the wreck. Hmmmm.. I suppose if you just decide to sit on your front porch doing nothing, someone has to come to your house to do routine physicals.
If there is no role for personal responsibility in the equation, then there is no reason to work to improve your and your family's situation. There is no reason to make more when the benefits come "for free". When everyone loses the incentive to produce, there will be no money except the Monopoly money the government prints and no one will have care. The phrase "not worth a Continental" will come back into vogue.
August 21, 2009 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
Taking care of yourself does wonders in preventing medical issues. Eating right, prevents how many diseases? taking things in moderation and moderate exercise yield amazing results. You watching what you and your family eat goes along way in the preventative medicne arena.
Genes and unfortunate circumstances can't be helped and there will always be the need for med care that can't be avoided due to the aforementioned facts. People wlak around with cold and flu all the time and now its a concern? Scare tactics that BUsh and crew would have been proud of. "Facts" based on rhetoric and hearsay. Kool aid drinkers unite.
August 21, 2009 at 12:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bobbyonetooth (anonymous) says...
If you are bleeding really bad or projectile vomiting or have an arrow through your head or keep fainting or are screaming in pain or have protruding bones I think Health Care is possibly a right. Otherwise I'm thinking maybe it is a privilege just like Henry Brown.
August 21, 2009 at 12:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
amyanne (anonymous) says...
Jim DeMint seems to like the response he gets each time he says "I don't want the most personal and private part of my life being controlled by the same people that ran the Katrina cleanup," but I wonder if he's referring to the Bush Administration or to the bureaucrats who manage the Congressional health insurance he enjoys. But perhaps he's just saying what his supporters and his major contributors want to hear.
August 21, 2009 at 12:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bobbyonetooth (anonymous) says...
Only God can make people sick or wounded and He must do it for a good reason which is in His Divine Plan. I do not think we should mess with God's Plan and try to help these people. I do not want to go to Hell.
August 21, 2009 at 12:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
Hey TraumaDork, give it a rest. Your talking points are so worn out and irrelevant. You're as bad as troll poster "BlackRain" used to be with your irrelevant babble and elitist bull crap.
US incomes have been stagnant for years. The CEO rake in billions and humps like you get your $41.5 k a year and keep taking it in the backside. Talk about destroying one's incentive to "work" and "make more".
August 21, 2009 at 12:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
Gringo your opinions are not fact as you try to shove them down our throats. Opinions passed off as "irrefutable facts merely assuage the "intellect" of both extremes. Both sides of the extreme kool-aid drinkers of both parties side excel in this type of you are wrong/I am right because so and so says so. Go take your arguments to Jr. HS debate class.
If Coldbud is on military retirement and gets his medical care from a government approved health care provider(that's important)then how is he on the military dole? He is probably paying or has secured insurance so he and his family won't be in a bad position. On the dole folks pay nothing. He had the CHOICE to receive or not receive. You seem a tad jealous of those that have earned those bennies through serving their country. The government is contractually obligated to abide by the terms of the contract he signed. So where is the problem?
Your opinion is a weak attempt at brow-beating. Dismissing his argument demonstrates you offer DNC/OB talking points and not much more. You toss out glittering generalities and when called you point fingers and play the victim.
August 21, 2009 at 12:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
gringo I see class envy, DNC/MoveOn talking points trump first hand knowledge of folks who work in the medical system. You now resort to name calling. Classy, it means you are out of talking points and now resort to 7th grade finger pointing and name calling. This isn't about the rich.
You can go back to texting your friends now...
August 21, 2009 at 12:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
A victim of what?
I'm not sure what you enjoy shoving down your own throat, but feel free to not read my arguments.
It's not an i'm right, you're wrong thing.
It's the delusional denial by middle class conservative on here about the future of........health care costs for the middle class.
Final point to ponder: why do middle class conservative humps so ardently defend the wealthy? WHat a bunch of lackeys.
Be careful, Gatorbait. You're starting to sound like a real "keyboard Rambo."
August 21, 2009 at 12:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
Ya know gringo, providing some links or info on your talking points would be nice. If you can't then you are just posting opinions trying to pass them off as fact.
Take your browbeating and name calling else where dud.
August 21, 2009 at 12:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
envy this, Gatorbait.
You're probably on the dole just like ColdBud, making your opinions similarly irrelevant.
And stop breathing through your mouth!
August 21, 2009 at 12:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Liberals_Are_Maroons (anonymous) says...
sixcar (anonymous) says...
lillycollette (anonymous) says...
The issue here is about access and affordability of healthcare—NOT doctor slavery.
lillycollette (anonymous) says...
I agree that 'right or priviledge should not be the focus of this discussion'. It appears that it is no more than a way to pick a fight.
lillycollette, the issue and the article to which you are posting asks the question as to whether health care is a right or a privilege. It appears, for your own convenience, you are diverting this discussion to "access and affordability" because you have no useful contribution to the question.
August 21, 2009 at 7:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
**********************************************
Please stop. You'll just encourage her to go off on another off-topic rant about the family court system.
August 21, 2009 at 12:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
last point to GatorBait..
RE: posting links to websites
That's been tried before by the likes of SirRobyn, BlaCkRain, BFWank, EvilGenius and those tools. Most of them ended up getting kicked off.
But more importantly they were made to look extremely foolish by many posters on this site for posting ridiculous websites like "WorldNetDaily" and other conservative rags. I'm trying to avoid going down that road.
The "post a link" approach has been way overused and has often been used to make posters (see above list of posters) appear foolish and ignorant.
August 21, 2009 at 12:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColdBud (anonymous) says...
gringolandia, to elaborate, as you requested:
My tax dollars have been used by this Congress and this Administration to do the following:
1) Help people pay mortgages that they were not paying.
2) Help banks that provided loans to those they should not have loaned too.
3) Bail out an auto industry that is failing due to labor union overkill, providing outrageous wages for unskilled labor.
4) Allowing stimulus money to be wasted on programs that have absolutely nothing to do with revitalizing our economy (Gay porn film festivals is just one example).
5) Extending and extending and extending unemployement benefits over and over again.
And now... I need to help pay for the healthcare of Ms. Welfare Moma with 4 kids on the rug, another on the way and no contact with any of the 5 daddies. I need to help take care of Mr. Corner Drug Dealer when he gets sick, stabbed or shot. I need to take care of Mr. and Mrs. Methhead when their body sores get infected.
I could go on and on. I tried to support Obama. I stated that I hoped he was the most successful President of all time because WE NEED THAT. He is failing though. Politics as usual. We're getting "change" all right... changing my money in to someone elses money.
August 21, 2009 at 12:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TraumaDoc (anonymous) says...
Ur, I have learned over the years to never be concerned with people who have nothing to say and resort to name-calling. This guy knows nothing about me yet makes disparaging remarks. It is arrogant and shows complete disregard for a real debate. It displays that his opinion is worthless so there is no need to be concerned about it. You will note he never addressed the issues raised. If someone wants to have a legitimate discussion and debate policy points, there is always time for that. This poster always insults and name-calls anyone who disagrees. It isn't worth your time to respond.
"Never wrestle with a pig.... you just get dirty and the pig likes it".
August 21, 2009 at 12:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
Hey TraumaDork- when did you post anything remotely resembling a "policy point"? I thought i was reading "The Limbaugh Letter" when i saw your post. Don't worry, i won't waste my time reading your garbage anymore.
Many are suggesting your are just the latest re-incarnation of the poster formerly known as "tripsa" and many others.
August 21, 2009 at 12:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
Not sure why you know about the "gay porn fest" , ColdBud. But if that's what you're into, more power to you for being comfortable with your gayness. Way to go, buddy. Now get back on that gov't teet!
August 21, 2009 at 12:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
It's curious that I have not seen supporters of the current bill do what Keyesforpres did...simply listing page and article with a brief description of what it is. Can some supporter show me an equal number of facts from the bill of what it does for me? I'll listen.
August 21, 2009 at 1 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
DrMerchant (anonymous) says...
Rather than determining a "right" or "privilege", I took it upon myself to download the Health Care Reform bill and I am reading all 1,017 pages for myself and I will come to my own conclusion. By the way, the bill is officially called, "HR 3200 - America's Affordable Health Choice Act 2009". It's my "right" to review the bill and a "privilege" to comment on it. Join me.
August 21, 2009 at 1:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
theronce- Obama is going to send death squads out to kill all the old people. Didn't you hear Sara P? Why read the bill when scholars like Sara Palin can interpret it for us?
August 21, 2009 at 1:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
real_news (anonymous) says...
For lunatic Republicans that still dont get it, just think of this ABSOLUTE fact: All European nations, Canada, Australia, Japan, China, Israel the beloved nation of our right-wing Media and all other developed nations have Universal (Nationalized) health care while US and some of the poorest 3rd world countries such as Nigeria, Haiti, Colombia, Angola, Congo, Tanzania, etc. do not have Universal (Nationalized) health care.
DO YOU really think that All European nations, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. etc. are wrong about universal (Nationalized) health care being the best method of providing health care and US, Nigeria, Haiti, Colombia, etc. poor as dirt 3rd world countries are right about this issue? Do you?
For much more in this regard u can check out:
http://www.anoox.com/blog/real_news.a...
August 21, 2009 at 1:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
I think she spells it "skaalers".
You betcha!
August 21, 2009 at 1:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
The best three pages of the hundreds I have read on health care reform can be found here. This is what the bill does for ordinary, working people.
http://www.alternet.org/story/141916/
I wish that I had read this first. And yes, I am reading HR 3200 and I've already read large parts of Jim DeMint's miserable little cut and paste book, skipping over the parts which I read on the McCain website last year as Republican position papers.
If you don't believe people are dying in Charleston due to lack of medial treatment, see this video:
I have to Sacrifice Me, Charleston Healthcare Stories http://www.vimeo.com/6191866
About 2.3rds of the way through you'll meet a woman with a huge cystic tumor growing in her belly, here in Charleston who is trying to pay for her operation. She needs to raise 18 thousand dollars before she is too sick to work.
August 21, 2009 at 1:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tj (anonymous) says...
America's problem is its too young! Other countries have developed over a longer period of time and have figured out successfully how to implement "universal coverage". I disagree with people saying the welfare people and their 8 kids need it, they are already covered by Medicaid.
There are alot of self-employed people that cant afford it, its not the poorest, its regular average Americans with no access to affordable care.
I do like the idea of the co-op's. What about making the uninsured a "group" and letting them buy into insurance at the same rates as it costs to people covered through employers?
Whats the big deal with all the hate? Obama is just trying to cover 45 million Americans with no health insurance, and anyone who says its wrong, is obviously not uninsured.
Relax, it might not be the time for this, but it doesnt have to be played out in such an outrageous way. Calm down people ;)
August 21, 2009 at 1:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tc1 (anonymous) says...
WHY are you liberals so Upset???
YOU have the needed votes in Both houses of congress. You DO NOT need Any republican votes. You can Do Anything You Want. You Can Have It Your Way Today!
Is it because in the future you know that you will need desparately to scream that "they" voted for it too, it's their fault too?
Or to avoid the impression that there is some doubt among democrats?
Or your feel good addiction to have Everyone Agree With You?
Or is it because you so badly want to share the future credit for a can't fail project of glorious dear leader? (ok this one is sarcasm)
I hope that not a single republican votes for this. It would have No effect on the outcome but would indicate that there is actually a Different Philosophy, no matter how small, to vote for.
You do not need us So WHY are you about to explode?
August 21, 2009 at 1:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
YankeeLady (anonymous) says...
Those of you who are complaining about having to pay for someone else's healthcare are already doing so, whether you like it or not. You're subsidizing the cost of the uninsured person's unpaid bills. And, you obviously have never had to go without insurance and know what it's like to not get the medical care you need.
The cost of healthcare insurance premiums are too much for many people to afford, and some people just plain don't want to pay for it. A public option is a necessity in an overhaul of the dysfunctional system that we currently have. All individuals should be insured.
As others have said, we are one of the few allegedly advanced countries that have no system of healthcare that cares for all citizens. Isn't it time that we joined the 21st century, and put the needs of our citizens before the profits of insurance companies?
I have worked in healthcare for many years, and have seen what happens to people who don't get regular medical care due to financial need and lack of insurance. Do you know what it's like not to be able to take recommended medication, or to see a specialist for a problem that might kill you, or to live in constant pain? Try it, and then talk to me about decrying healthcare reform.
August 21, 2009 at 1:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Liberals_Are_Maroons (anonymous) says...
RE: posting links to websites
*********************************************
I'm sorry, I just couldn't help myself. The links are a couple of weeks old, so the number may have changed slightly, most likely to the negative:
Support for Congressional Health Care Reform Falls to New Low
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publi...
54% Say Passing No Healthcare Reform Better Than Passing Congressional Plan
http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publi...
August 21, 2009 at 1:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MindBath (anonymous) says...
YankeeLady, so the insurance companies' products are priced out of reach of 45 million Americans and your solution is to provide the funds so the insurance companies can now profit from those additional 45 million people while removing all downward price pressure from their overpriced products. Did you say something about putting the profits of insurance companies above the needs of the people?
August 21, 2009 at 1:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
YouKnowMe (anonymous) says...
You are right we will do it without you!
It is going to pass....it may not be exactly what I want and it definitely will not be what you want....but something will pass.
Then we can move to the next item on the agenda.......sssssshhhhhhh, don't tell anyone, but we are building a moon station and there is a plan to ship all you old fart republican's up there. That is the true "death panel", a lottery of who goes;-)
August 21, 2009 at 2:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chilldiesel83 (anonymous) says...
YankeeLady (anonymous) says...
Those of you who are complaining about having to pay for someone else's healthcare are already doing so, whether you like it or not.
Yes that is the problem. I dont want to add to that free payment plan that everyone else is on. Listen, im not against reform, im not against fixing the system, however I am against forcing me to pay for someone else that refuses to pay for themselves. There is a difference between someone that cannot pay and someone that refuses to pay. Words and phrases get thrown around as if they are similar when there are deep dark contrasts. I dont want to pay for the freeloaders that I am paying for now, and I dont want to pay for the freeloaders that would be added. Bottom line, I would rather pay a 50% tax rate if I knew every penny was going to the homeless and the helpless, than to pay a 10% tax rate and have that money go to people that are worthless because the choose to be. I am a Republican and am as compassionate as can be. I believe that most Republicans like myself would give their shirt off their back to anyone who truly needed it.
August 21, 2009 at 2:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chilldiesel83 (anonymous) says...
real_news (anonymous) says...
DO YOU really think that All European nations, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. etc. are wrong about universal (Nationalized) health care being the best method of providing health care and US, Nigeria, Haiti, Colombia, etc. poor as dirt 3rd world countries are right about this issue? Do you?
Yes I do and so are you for thinking they are right. Of course there are positives in parts of their system, just like there are positives in our current system. However, their negatives are sending those countries into an abyss. Per the leading Lady for Canda's health care system, "it is imploding". You and the rest of Democrats are correct, single payer would be the best option by far if the following were possible. However, since we live on Planet Earth, they are not. If you had one system where the doctors could get paid whatever they wanted, every single person was insured and every single person got every single piece of care that they wanted or needed no questions asked and that was all paid for by the government and they could run a 100 trillion dollar deficit every month, then yea that could probably work. That is the only truly 100% Universal Health Care system and anything less than that should be unacceptable to you whackos that want universal health care. The problem is reality does not allow for such a system. To try and portray this public option/single payer to a system like that is false.
August 21, 2009 at 2:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
YouKnowMe (anonymous) says...
Chill - wow you are turly a disgusting huamn being.
You are the first one on the moon shuttle.....it's death panel time for your dude!
August 21, 2009 at 2:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scottmcx (anonymous) says...
YouKnow..
Go back to Rainbows and Bunny Rabbit Land...This is Planet Earth.
August 21, 2009 at 2:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chilldiesel83 (anonymous) says...
Also, if healthcare is so important, why the hell are we letting the Federal Government control it. Lets take a look at what they do or not do so good so to speak.
IRS
AMTRACK
KATRINA
WAR IN IRAQ
USPS
FDA
EPA
MEDICARE
MEDICARE PART D
CASH FOR CLUNKERS
CAP AND TRADE
Damn this list could go on and on. Whether you believe a single payer or co-ops or the current system works does not make you an idiot. What makes you an idiot is the notion that the Federal Government of The United States can handle the job. That is what makes you an idiot. There are some things they can do very well, Healthcare is hardly one of them.
August 21, 2009 at 2:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TraumaDoc1 (anonymous) says...
Copied and pasted
"The cost of healthcare insurance premiums are too much for many people to afford, and some people just plain don't want to pay for it."
Following that same logic, the government should buy you food, provide your transportation, or get you a flat screen TV. Those things are too much for some people to afford and they just plain don't want to pay for them. You would argue the TV isn't a necessity. True, but food and transportation are, so what is the difference between those necessities and health care? You are saying that the government owes anyone doesn't have any necessity. I agree that it is a legitimate role for government to provide assistance for people who can't help themselves. But what about the tens of millions of people who are working and can afford insurance but have chosen not to buy it because they are healthy and don't use it much? Free ride? And what about those 10-15 million illegal aliens? (yes, it is a violation of law; calling them "undocumented workers" is like calling a bank robber an "undocumented withdrawer") No one has a problem with taking care of those who are disabled, or can't work for some other reason. But if you get the same benefits for not working that you do for working, why would anyone do it?
August 21, 2009 at 2:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColdBud (anonymous) says...
As Chilldiesel83 pointed out, the problem here is not if we should fix healthcare or not. I think everyone agrees that the healthcare system needs to be fixed. The problem is in forcing people that are earning their way to support those that are not earning their way or even trying to earn their own way. I'm flat tired of doing that. Most American's are.
gringolandia, when I responded to your comments I was under the impression that you could discuss this like an adult. I was wrong, my bad. It's Friday afternoon and I don't feel like fixing you so go on about your way now.
August 21, 2009 at 2:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tc1 (anonymous) says...
Please! Ber Fox! Please! don't throw me in dat briar patch! (old f@^t joke) :)
August 21, 2009 at 2:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BigSargeofSC (anonymous) says...
Two Words: Tort Reform.
Its not a right or a privilege, its a nessaccity for living.
August 21, 2009 at 2:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TraumaDoc1 (anonymous) says...
There are 1300 health insurance companies in the United States. Many are propped up by artificial monopolies which require state boundaries for insurance coverage. For you insurance company haters out there, those rules were set up by legislatures at the behest of the companies. If you want to get back at them, change the rules that protect their overcharging. It would not cost the US taxpayers one cent (other than printing and copying) to repeal those state boundaries and make insurance providers actually compete across state lines. A person in PA pays one third the cost of a person ten miles away in NJ for the same policy. It makes no sense. That bill was already introduced in Congress but has gone no where. Insurance policies are cheaper with group rates. It would not cost anything to allow people or small businesses to form groups to buy insurance at group rates. The rates would be even better if they can shop across the country. Instead of trashing the entire system, provide coverage for those who are legitimately uncovered and have not chosen to be that way despite being able to afford it.
August 21, 2009 at 2:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
BS ALERT!!!
Keyesforpres posted a bunch of bulleted "points" regarding the HC bill as if they were fact. They all come from a bunch of Twitters from a right-wing blogger - http://blog.flecksoflife.com/2009/07/...
AND ARE ALL FALSE!
Check out the actual bill for yourself at http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/11... and compare Keyesforpres cut n' paste job with the actual bill.
Either Keyesfor pres is a fool who doesn't check his sources and just buys into dogma, or he thinks we're all fools and will take his posts at face value.
August 21, 2009 at 2:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
YouKnowMe (anonymous) says...
You are the first on the shuttle tc, oops I mean Baer Rabbit!
August 21, 2009 at 2:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Liberals_Are_Maroons (anonymous) says...
Also, if healthcare is so important, why the hell are we letting the Federal Government control it. Lets take a look at what they do or not do so good so to speak.
...
USPS
...
**********************************************
In all fairness, I don't think the US Postal Service is actually ran by the US government.
August 21, 2009 at 3:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
real_news (anonymous) says...
To see what TRUE Lunatics Republicans are, which means they do not deal with FACTS and they do not know what is going on in the World based on FACTS, Consider this question that I asked earlier:
DO YOU really think that All European nations, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. etc. are wrong about universal (Nationalized) health care being the best method of providing health care and US, Nigeria, Haiti, Colombia, etc. poor as dirt 3rd world countries are right about this issue? Do you?
And one of these Republican lunatics answered:
Yes I do and so are you for thinking they are right. Of course there are positives in parts of their system, just like there are positives in our current system. However, their negatives are sending those countries into an abyss.
HOW CAN you be so unaware of FACTS to say such a thing, AFTER all European countries WHOM ALL have Universal (Nationalized) health care are having much better economies than US economy as EVIDENT by:
1- Euro being so much more valuable than US Dollar
2- Avg homes in Europe being much more valuable than avg homes in US and not falling in 99% of Europe
3- NO banks having failed in Europe except those that bought US mortgage backed securities or securities issued by Lehman Brothers or deposits made with Madoff's, etc. US misery.
4- Europeans Auto makers doing fine while US Auto makers went bankrupt, with just 1 German Auto maker, VW, having a market valuation MANY MANY times of all US Auto makers combined
etc. etc.
I mean to see how badly US economy is doing vs European economies just think about this FACT that ONE, just ONE, repeat just ONE, European Auto maker, that is VW, has a market valuation that is nearly TEN times the market valuation of ALL US Auto makers combined and US has a much larger population than Germany too. So if US cannot make Autos that can compete against European companies, what the HEK can US make that can compete against European companies? Of course very little, that is whether it is Autos, or Planes, or Fashion, or Ships, or Trains, or Renewable energy sources, etc. etc. European companies are leaving US companies in the dust as you can again see from example of ONE European Auto maker being nearly TEN times as valuable as all US Auto makers.
To see WHY European economies/companies are doing much better than US, check out:
http://www.anoox.com/blog/real_news.a...
August 21, 2009 at 3:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...
I have been really too busy today to comment (a liberal working hard, I know, it goes against the typical knee jerk stereotype that many of you have etched in your brain), but then again why bother. From reading many of ya’lls comments, you have made up your minds, displaying the stereotypical, knee jerk, short sighted, opinionated comments which highlights the shear lack of ability to see the big picture. I could point specific examples (Cold Bud), but really I don’t have time or the patience today. As far as healthcare goes, I feel that at the very least, everyone should have affordable access to healthcare, and this belief stems mainly from an ethical standpoint and not politics, enough said, at least for now!
August 21, 2009 at 3:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
FDA? We would be in trouble without it. Truth on labels? Yeah that's a bad idea..
EPA? Having standards for emission and pollution controls? Having acceptable standards for clean water? Yeah, crazy ideas there too!
Cap and Trade? That hasn't even been passed yet.
Come on, at least use some good examples when you make your case. IRS, yes. War in Iraq? Yes (Cheney's baby, I might add) USPS isn't really run by the government, it has alot of elements of private business in it. AMTRAK is a privately run business, but it does receive some government subsidies.
August 21, 2009 at 3:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bill1776 (anonymous) says...
IN RESPONSE TO YOUKNOWME I AM TALKING ABOUT THE HEARING ON JUDGE SOTOMAYOR IN THE SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE NOT AFTER SHE CAME OUT OF THE COMMITTEE FOR A VOTE BY THE FULL SENATE. THE RULES OF THE SENATE JUDICIARY ARE ARTICLE IV, THERE MUST BE ONE VOTE FROM THE MINORITY TO STOP DEBATE AND BRING THE SUBJECT TO A VOTE. LINDSEY GRAHAM GAVE HER THAT ONE VOTE THAT BROUGHT HER OUT OF COMMITTEE TO THE FULL SENATE FOR A VOTE. LINDSEY GRAHAM SAVED HER IF IT WASN'T FOR LINDSEY GRAHAM'S ONE VOTE JUDGE SOTOMAYOR WOULD HAVE BEEN STOPPED IN COMMITTEE. OBAMA SHOULD HAVE A BEER SUMMIT FOR JUDGE SOTOMAYOR AND LINDSEY GRAHAM AND THANK HIM FOR SAVING JUDGE SOTOMAYOR AND ASK HIM TO JOIN THE DEMOCRAT PARTY.
August 21, 2009 at 3:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
bill...please take the caps lock off- we can read your post.
August 21, 2009 at 4:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Liberals_Are_Maroons (anonymous) says...
real_news (anonymous) says...
...
To see WHY European economies/companies are doing much better than US, check out...
***********************************************
It's debatable if they are doing better than the US, but as to why they are doing well at all, that's simple: George Marshall.
August 21, 2009 at 4:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
George Catlett Marshall- one of our most esteemed graduates. But you are correct, Liberals. If it wasn't for The Marshall Plan, they would have never gotten back on their feet.
August 21, 2009 at 4:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
GG (anonymous) says...
YES to the helpless; NO to the worthless.
Like I have said before, I have no problem with a well-planned and well-initiated, efficient plan for the helpless (kids, handicapped and elderly). I just don't want a plan to include the worthless (able-bodied adults who can work).
But I guess the glitch to such a concept would be if our government could even come up with a well-planned and well-initiated, efficient plan. Scary!
August 21, 2009 at 4:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
Awww, little sack of doo doo ColdBeer got her feeling hurt.
August 21, 2009 at 4:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
Thanks for taking care of my lightweight, WhatMeWorry.
TraumaDork and Keyesforpres sound almost as if they are the same poster?
August 21, 2009 at 4:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TraumaDoc1 (anonymous) says...
mirat90, good point in that some government programs have to be done by the central government and some don't. Additionally, some are run much better than others. In an ideal world, regulation of capitalism wouldn't be required but as long as there are insider deals and people being paid off (real world) the FDA, SEC, and organizations like them are clearly necessary for oversight and only the federal government can do it.
guidedbystewart, it is refreshing to see a liberal who is honest and says I am a liberal. Liberals and conservatives both want improvement, they differ in how they want to go about it. It is a disagreement, not a reason for hate. You are correct in that everyone should have access. The real way to look at this is first, what are the problems? 1) not everyone has access, 2) insurance premiums are unaffordable to many 3) defensive medicine raises costs, and 4) artificial monopolies prohibit competition, raising prices. Once you get there, the questions all become: How do you solve the problems in a way that is the least painful and doesn't wreck the economy? Anyone familiar with medical care in the US doesn't question the quality of care when it is available. That is why everyone comes to the US to have specialty care or train in medicine. The questions really are more about increasing access. That is where the solutions should be debated.
Real_news, I know you are passionate in your advocacy but cut and paste posting something for the one hundredth time does not make it any truer than the first time you posted it. If you feel you have a good point, post it, let people read it and move on. Capitalization does not make things more true. You make good points but they lose effectiveness and people skip over them when they appear in the same post over and over.
I have a self-policy against responding to moronic posts but for once (and only once) I am violating it. After posting a number of real questions about the system to discuss and being bombarded by insults from one poster who always ignores the questions, I have to say, Gringo, your mind is an intellectual vacuum. It is the elephant graveyard where rational thought goes to die. Every time someone posts a point for discussion, instead of posting substance to back your side of the debate, you scream, "Dick Cheney", or "Rush Limbaugh" or "Sarah Palin" or insult someone and never address the issue. Answer the questions and don't be an anonymous internet coward. You clearly need another neuron to make a synapse. You are acting like a third grader on the playground of life yelling "nyah nyah..." at everyone. If you find it dark while you are typing, it is probably because the hemorrhoids have swollen around your neck and are cutting down on your available light. Stop calling people names and contribute to the legitimate discussion if you have something useful to say.
I plan on never addressing that issue again but petty bullies need to be exposed.
August 21, 2009 at 5:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chilldiesel83 (anonymous) says...
vmirat90 (anonymous) says...
FDA? We would be in trouble without it. Truth on labels? Yeah that's a bad idea..
EPA? Having standards for emission and pollution controls? Having acceptable standards for clean water? Yeah, crazy ideas there too!
Cap and Trade? That hasn't even been passed yet.
Come on, at least use some good examples when you make your case. IRS, yes. War in Iraq? Yes (Cheney's baby, I might add) USPS isn't really run by the government, it has alot of elements of private business in it. AMTRAK is a privately run business, but it does receive some government subsidies.
You are missing my point exactly. Im not saying these are bad programs. I am saying that because the US government runs them the way that they do they are inefficient and inadequate. Health Care reform is great and everyone wants that. They just dont want the government running it because everything good they have tried to do in the past has failed as pointed out by me. Geez.. no wonder people cant agree. You dont even know what im talking about....
August 21, 2009 at 5:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kyjello (anonymous) says...
you posters who make such a looooong post, anyone believe there is a readership?
August 21, 2009 at 5:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TraumaDoc1 (anonymous) says...
vmirat90, sorry for leaving the v off earlier. There is nothing better for a country's economy than losing a war to the US, at least since World War II. That was the premise for the book and movie, The Mouse That Roared, which is a really good book and a funny 1959 movie starring Peter Sellers. A small country, the fictional Grand Duchy of Fenwick, starts a war with the US with the intention of losing and collecting money to rebuild. Due to constant US government screw ups, the small country actually wins (without a fight) and has to figure out what to do. It is probably a cheap rental at Blockbuster.
August 21, 2009 at 5:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Liberals_Are_Maroons (anonymous) says...
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
Thanks for taking care of my lightweight, WhatMeWorry.
TraumaDork and Keyesforpres sound almost as if they are the same poster?
August 21, 2009 at 4:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
************************************************
Do you have your parents' permission to be using the computer?
(If you are not a child, please accept my apologies, but after reading your posts it *was* the most logical explanation.)
August 21, 2009 at 5:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chilldiesel83 (anonymous) says...
YouKnowMe (anonymous) says...
Chill - wow you are turly a disgusting huamn being.
You are the first one on the moon shuttle.....it's death panel time for your dude!
August 21, 2009 at 2:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Real news im not a disgusting human being. I just dont agree with you and so you make that comment. Yes I want health care reform. I want to reign in the insurance companies against unfair practices. I want the government to run the programs it does better than they do now. I want to be able to pay for and buy anything that I want, and yes I want to pay for those that cannot help themselves. I do not want to pay for the lazy people. Why am I a bad person because I dont want to be forced to pay for someone else that would never help me out even if I needed it....
August 21, 2009 at 5:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chilldiesel83 (anonymous) says...
sorry i meant you know me... Real news, we can just agree to disagree.
August 21, 2009 at 6 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TraumaDoc1 (anonymous) says...
kyjello, a lot of the posts are long but the issues are complicated. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't understand them. People using sounds bites are selling something. Limited resources mean decisions have to be made. No program, public or private, will ever have unlimited resources. Both liberals and conservatives should be working together trying to find common ground and answers. It is fine for different people to disagree but staking out turf and not listening to other opinions never solves anything (look at Congress now). The best answer is usually in the middle where the majority of the people are.
August 21, 2009 at 6:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TraumaDoc1 (anonymous) says...
As of Friday afternoon, the public option portion of the House bill, which was on life support, is probably dead. The administration just announced that the projected 10 year deficit, which they had predicted would decrease, has actually increased by two trillion dollars. There is no way for the Democratic Party to add 1.6 trillion more dollars to the deficit in a party line vote and maintain the majority in the Congress. Since the controversial end of life counseling and public options will be gone, maybe now people on both sides will stop the hyperbole and find some real solutions to increase access to care that both sides can live with. It would probably be best for both parties to just start from scratch, work together and get a bill that both can have input into. That would also give both political cover.
August 21, 2009 at 6:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
If you're in denial about the reality of my arguments, I cannot help you TraumaDork.
Beyond your denial and arrogance there is little else.
August 21, 2009 at 8:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
Here's an example of the stupidity and fear from the right.
When polled about a "public option" health plan, opinion is roughly split.
When the EXACT SAME PLAN is called the "government option", opinion is strongly against.
People like Besty McCaughey are severely eroding the credibility of the anti healthcare reform folks.
It's as if every dollar spent by the government goes directly to the black man so he can sit on his porch and drink beer. What a bunch of hateful racists that contaminate these threads.
August 21, 2009 at 8:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
coachowens (anonymous) says...
okay 183 posts here goes.
Less government? Okay, Are you really saying you want "States Rights?" So you want us to shut down the government of the United States, right?
Next, you think everything with exsisting health care in this Country is okay? Is this what you are saying? That means you can afford everything that relates to health care and money is no object?
I know some of you did not vote for the current President I can tell by the names you call this man, this human being, this Christian.
Why do you feel a sense of entitlement? Boy, for the first fifty plus years of my life there has been a white man in the White House.
We elect a Black man oh excuse me Bi-racial man and we are going to hell in a hand basket!
He can do nothing right in your eyes but pick cotton uh? He has only been in office for eight months! I am sick and tired of the blatant racism and prejudice! 200 plus years and some things never change! That's a shame! Some of you hide behind the Constitution that was written by well white Christian males to ensure against some things and help others. In no way did they see into the future to where we are today. It was a blue print, design that has and have provisions to be changed for the better! Sorry to burst your bubble but they were not perfect! So I am tired of hearing about the Constitution!
The bottomline is you do not want things to change! For the better or worse! You want to complain about any and everything that you don't like. News flash, why are you in this Country if things are so bad! I am proud to be an American and wouldn't trade it for any Country in the world! I did not vote for President Bush, but doggonit I would take a bullet for him, would you for President Obama?
Don't answer that I already know. I have dialoged with several conservative posters who were nice enough, kind enough to answer my questions. So, for those that have, I appologize for this rant. I am just tired of the fighting over what we should be working together to resolve. I have worked hard for everything I have! I am not on the dole! But I do have compassion for those that truely need a hand up and not a hand out.
Lastly, If you want status quo, wait eight years and I know you'll get it. In the mean time the choice to me is be a part of the solution or part of the problem, your choice!
Things I would do to help make a better America
1. Systematically review every Government Agency. Eliminate those,like the Dept. of Education and send the money to the States.
2. Some form of "Tort" reform!
3. Stop the Lobbist/special interest period!
4. Bring back Physical Education in schools.
5. TERM LIMITS ACROSS THE BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!
I could go on here. Change is tough I know but doing nothing is worse!
Just a Thought!
Peace & Blessings
August 21, 2009 at 9:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MAKO17 (anonymous) says...
I didn't have time to read all the comments, but everyone in this country has the right to health care. Just go into any hospital and there is a sign that states " you must receive care". This is the biggest BS waste of time and money. I am already paying for my ins. and everyone elses health care. Leave it alone and get a job;..
August 21, 2009 at 10:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TraumaDoc1 (anonymous) says...
coach, Those are excellent ideas. I don't doubt that racism remains in the country but not everyone who disagrees on a policy issue is doing it because of race. President Obama is everyone's President unless they renounce their citizenship. I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and say they all have the best interests of the country at heart and that there is only disagreement about how to do it. I agreed with President Bush when I thought he did the right things and disagreed when I thought he didn't. I feel the same way about President Obama. Unfortunately, he has been put in a bad place of having to be the public face of a bill that his administration didn't write. I think that just like the stimulus disaster, he should have drafted the main points of the bill he wanted instead of allowing the House to do it. House staff members wrote the bill and no one had really seen it before the recess when the Speaker wanted a vote. It never made sense because the bill didn't go into effect until 2013. In the stimulus bill, Rep. Obey (House Appropriations Chairman) threw a bunch of pet projects (from both Republicans and Democrats) in the bill that the President is taking the blame for unfairly. The President is in the same position now with the health care debate. He is having to defend several House draft bills which are different and no Senate bill. It is a nearly impossible position to be in and he is taking the blame for stuff the House put in the bill. He can't distance himself from the bill drafts because he needs those House members to pass the eventual single bill. The liberal Democrats won't pass a bill without a government option and the conservative Democrats won't pass one with it. They have to pass something, though. There is too much invested now. I think they will come up with some milder, less controversial consensus bill, declare victory and be glad it is over. It is costing him too much support now. The paradox is that he is being hurt by the battle in his own party.
August 21, 2009 at 10:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
maeko (anonymous) says...
Mckinney...thank you for the explanation. you may find that i do not normally take a stance in matters of political posturing, as i do not understand them nor claim to be knowledgable in such complex matters as this one. my simple opinions are based in personal philosophy and personal ethics. i am ignorant to most party dogmas making me oblivious to your purposeful sarcasm. i do, however, understand your claim now.
vmirat....
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Kind of like the evils peddled and profits made (and over 4,000 dead US servicemen as well) using the excuse of WMD's......
Oh, but we will be welcomed as liberators! Still waiting for that to happen!"
August 21, 2009 at 9:47 a.m.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
...i do not know. perhaps. if it was known to be true, what would have been done? regretfully, the strength of most has been tapped (or snuffed) out for many years. reduced to the complaints you see here. with the People's blessings, our leaders have become theoretical ghosts in the machine of govt. perpetual. the faces and tongues change but the motivations do not.
August 21, 2009 at 10:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
real_news (anonymous) says...
Lets face it, only lunatics (aka Republicans) or those who are making 100s of Billions of Dollars extra per year from the current health care system in US (big insurance, big pharma, wall street gang) or those who have been
brain washed by their agents (aka the right-wing media such as Talkradio, Fox TV, Wall street journal, etc.) can be for the current for profit health care system in US and against the single payer (not for profit) Universal health care that they have in ALL, I repeat ALL, European countries, Canada, Japan, Australia, China, in fact in all developed countries, including Israel the beloved nation of the right-wingers.
After all consider these FACTS:
1- 50Mill Americans have NO health insurance so their only choice in case of illness is death or bankruptcy and usually both, while every European, Canadian, Japanese, Chinese, Australian, etc. has access to the same health care for the Taxes that they pay plus a nominal fee such as $59 per month per person in Canada.
2- 2Mill+ Americans go bankrupt each year due to health care costs WHILE in Europe or Canada that have Universal health care ZERO person or family goes bankrupt each year due to health care costs.
3- In Europe or Canada that have Universal health care health care is taking about 9% of GDP while in US where as noted above Millions do not have health care or Millions go bankrupt each year due to health care costs, health care is taking 18% of GDP.
4- In US toward the goal of maximizing profits health insurance companies deny coverage to Millions of Americans under claim of "pre existing conditions..", thus sentencing them effectively to DIE!
5- In US even if you have health insurance, costs of co-pays and deductibles drive many American families into financial ruin,
unless you have Military or Government type health insurance, the type that our Senator and Congressman enjoy courtesy of our Taxes.
Whereas in Europe, Canada, etc. there is NO such thing as co-pays and deductibles, beside a nominal fee such as for example 5 Euros per
doctor visit in France, whether you stay in the Hospital a day or a month.
So when one presents the above FACTS which clearly show how much better European, Canadian style single payer Universal health care
is compared to the for profit private health insurance in US, then Republicans (aka our right-wing Media) state the following:
"But European's have economic stagnation due to having a "Socialist" single payer Universal health care......"
Which is patently false since the European economies are in FACT doing much better than US economy as evident by:
Euro being so much more valuable than US Dollar
Due to lack of space here, U can read rest of this article and much more here:
www.anoox.com/blog/uhc
August 22, 2009 at 12:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reality_check (anonymous) says...
It's funny I read the posts & it's like folks think they're 2 kids on the playground slugging it out.Reality is Repubs & Dems are treating this debate that way.
I'm not someone who support Obama,his liberal policies or the uni-partisan bills in the House or Senate.So here are the facts boys & girls.
The gov't has bankrupt medicaid & medicare, will bankrupt social security in 2 yrs-this has been admitted by a democratic senator.Millions of Americans,including all of us,will be forced from the plan we like & to the public option,co-op or whatever it is called if it passes.Not because the gov't will make you but because your employer will drop coverage due to no desire to face fees for not using the plan or cost for private insurance sky rocketing due to an inability to compete.We'll have to pay for our gov't to give free healthcare to millions of illegal aliens.The last indignity I care to mention,among others,the gov't will require you & me to go through end of life counseling every 5 yrs beyond age 65.This counselor WILL NOT MIGHT WILL dictate treatments,medicines,surgeries,etc. the gov't will pay for in your twilight years.
Our family pays $390 every pay period for coverage,we happily pay even if it means forgoing comforts,not buying a BMW,don't tell me you wouldn't like to own one.We'd happily pay that if it meant we'd have to get a 2nd or 3rd job to cover costs.We have a responsibility to care for our children which means using coverage we dictate.
Two stories illustrate my point.Our son was born with a birth defect that required surgery at 23 hours old.To correct the issue took 3 surgeries by 6 months of age.In a gov't system he'd still have the colostomy he had at 23 hours old, he's now 2 1/2.We have a family member living in a country with a gov't plan.He retired after 33 yrs in the Navy & promised his wife he'd move her to her homeland upon.His health is worse now than it was under US coverage.He flies here & pays out of pocket for procedures because his gov't plan won't cover them due to age.
Whether you agree with me or not is irrelevant,what is important is you exercise the one RIGHT guaranteed in the Constitution of this Great Country.The RIGHT to think for yourself.I'm sure there will be some folks that will make some smart comment.Go right ahead,this is the first & only post I'll be making.Acknowledging ignorance only leads to further ignorance.So I leave you with this question.
What's most important to you,the ability to choose for yourself your doctor, what procedures you can have & medications you can be given?Or are you really willing to give up control?Don't fool yourself, you & I are control freaks when it comes to our health.
This is the holy grail for liberals.They've tried to get socialized medicine passed before & have been shot down.We're at a tipping point in our Nation's history.It's important we make the right decisions now or we'll face the consequences for decades.
August 22, 2009 at 1:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BlackReign (anonymous) says...
Real_msnbcnews, the 50 million is nota fact, its a lie;
Each of these people and media outlets incorrectly claimed the number of uninsured to be 40 to 50 million Americans. The actual total is open to debate. But there are millions of people who should be excluded from that tally, including: those who aren’t American citizens, people who can afford their own insurance, and people who already qualify for government coverage but haven’t signed up.
Government statistics also show 45 percent of those without insurance will have insurance again within four months after job transitions.
Accounting for all those factors, one prominent study places the total for the long-term uninsured as low as 8.2 million – a very different reality than the media and national health care advocates claim.
http://www.businessandmedia.org/print...
August 22, 2009 at 9:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BlackReign (anonymous) says...
Hey Real_msnbcnews, so lets just for the moment consider on simple FACT;
If Europe and Canada, had needed to maintain a world class military to protect their nations for the last 65 years, do you think they would have been able to afford their socialized healthcare?
FACT - France bailed on NATO in 1966, but has benefited from our militarys unbrella of protection, just as the rest of the ingrates in Europe.
Anyone that uses the example of Europe or Canada as examples for a 'working' socialist healcare system, is either ignoring the trillions in military spending the US has done to free & protect Europe since WW2, or is just plain ignorant of history.
It is so easy to play the Socialist Utopia when the US is covering your arse.
Lets pull out of Europe and let them start spending a REAL % of their GDP on a REAL military, and see how that 'free healthcare" works out.
'Canadians visit U.S. to get health care
Deal lets many go to Michigan hospitals
Hospitals in border cities, including Detroit, are forging lucrative arrangements with Canadian health agencies to provide care not widely available across the border.'
http://freep.com/article/20090820/BUS...
So if we get Canadian style healthcare, will I have to go to Detroit for real care? LOL what a farce the left is.
August 22, 2009 at 9:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
The self loathing "Keyboard Rambo" is back, folks!!!!
Crying i'm laughing so hard right, LMFAO!!!
August 22, 2009 at 1:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BlackReign (anonymous) says...
gringolandia - another worthless post by a pathetic troll. what a bed wetting loser.
August 22, 2009 at 2:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
belly laughing!!!
Post some more Limbaugh links, please, we are dying over here.
August 22, 2009 at 4:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
real_news (anonymous) says...
After one exposes the FACT that Universal (Nationalized) health care is much better for the society(Middle class) than the for profit private insurance based health care in US, then lunatic Republicans and our right-wing Media resort to such desperate LIES as:
"But European or Canadians are coming to US for their health care....."
Of course the lunatic Republicans and our right-wing Media will not back this assertion by any real facts from European or Canadian Governments or Media, because it is totally a LIE, made up by the lunatic Republicans and our right-wing Media. Instead what they will do is point to a few Europeans or Canadians who have come to US for their health care needs, which would be the same as saying "look someone won the Lottery in US, then everyone is going to win the Lottery..", or "Someone jumped off the bridge in Canada, then everyone must want to jump off the bridge in Canada...", which is absolute nonsense since the issue is not what 0.0001% of Canadians or Europeans have done but what do the great majority want and have done. As the best proof of this point, here is the position of the Conservative party in UK about universal health care: "This body will allocate money fairly and in a way which will help secure equal access to healthcare for all." Which you can read about it here:
http://www.conservatives.com/Policy/W...
So as you see EVEN the Conservative party in UK is for the universal health care that they have in UK. And they are the most Conservative party in whole of Europe. Or consider this FACT: Not long ago, CBC, that is Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, asked Canadians to nominate and then vote for The Greatest Canadian in history, 1.5Mill Canadians responded. The winner? Not Wayne Gretzky, Not even Alexander Graham Bell, another finalist.
The greatest Canadian ever?
Tommy Douglas, who was the father of the Canadian single payer Universal health care system:
http://www.cbc.ca/greatest/
So as you see from the above FACTS, 99.99% of
Europeans or Canadians love their Universal (Nationalized) health care.
You can read much more in this regard here:
http://www.anoox.com/blog/real_news.a...
August 22, 2009 at 4:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
coachowens (anonymous) says...
Thank you TraumaDoc!
It can't get any plainer to me than that.
So, the President is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't!
So, how can we as a Country control the spiraling costs of health care?
Is it just me? Why do we pay more for everything? Why does one doctor cost "X"? and another doctor costs "Y" for the same service?
Why can I go to CVS and pay $5.00 for a bottle of aspirin and go to MUSC and pay $25.00 for the same aspirin?
Thanks for the feedback!
Just a Thought!
Peace & Blessings
August 22, 2009 at 7:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
laurasmorris (anonymous) says...
Have you noticed how many posters here never seem to recognize the role government might have played in getting the privileged class where they are? It’s only the few crumbs thrown to the less fortunate that get them riled up. If we took all the doctors and other health professionals who got help from “government” out of service, we wouldn’t have enough to serve a medium-sized city, and they wouldn’t be in such a city anyway because there wouldn’t be enough people with enough money to keep them in business. And, yes, medicine is very much a business these days.
As for medical education, this state has not just one, but two, PUBLIC medical schools. On top of that are a myriad of Federal Government programs that pay in some way for medical education and public health. These schools exist only due to their ability to secure public funding (translation: our tax dollars). I have three siblings, all of whom are physicians. Two of them got their medical education at MUSC—one compliments of the Navy, and one the Army. My sister got her degree at a public institution in another state and did part of her residency at MUSC. My daughter is a nurse and is married to a man who has a Ph.D. in public health, both from the University of South Carolina. One of my brothers is married to a nurse, and one of my nieces is currently in nursing school. So, while I fully appreciation the hard work it takes for individuals to be doctors and other health professionals, I also know that not one of them would have been able to do this without government help. From a totally selfish perspective, I think it is in my best interest to have as many healthy people in this country as we can. I would not want to live in a community, state, or nation where people are walking around with communicable diseases and are so unhealthy that they can’t haul away my garbage, keep my drinking water safe, protect me from criminals, teach my children, or provide the many other services that I as an American have come to expect. Government has had, and I pray will continue to have, a role in promoting “the general welfare”. I may not have a right to health care, but I certainly believe I have invested enough of my tax dollars to expect a return in the form of a healthier, more prosperous America.
August 23, 2009 at 10:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
Laura- this board is infested with brainwashed lackeys, a bunch of middle class conservative humps that think that it's cool to ardently defend the wealthy. Meanwhile, folks like blackrain continue taking it in the backside, but are so far disconnected from reality that they think modern conservatism helps them. They are delusional and often times consume their own fecal material (--->>> BalckRain)
August 23, 2009 at 5:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
The other bunch of loud-mouthed Obama / Healthcare reform bashers are retired military folks around Charleton. These folks suckle on the gov't teet on one hand and scream about how gov't is too big, spends too much etc. on the other.
They like to say all gov't is bad, except for the gov't that serves them and their needs. What a bunch of delusional, selfish fools.
August 23, 2009 at 5:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lillycollette (anonymous) says...
DeMint [R] takes a [D] stand in saying: “I do think in our country and in any civil society there should be a safety net for basic health and food and shelter,
He then goes on to say: “but that doesn't mean that the whole system should be designed around the belief that people can't make their own decisions, can't be responsible for themselves,".
Jimbo, I read HR3200
http://edlabor.house.gov/documents/11...
Can you puhleeese point out any particular instance where this bill can be interpreted as showing the belief that people are not capable of making their own decisions or being responsible for themselves?
August 24, 2009 at 6:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lillycollette (anonymous) says...
And for the 'topic police' (sixcar and Liberals_Are_Maroons, et al)
GET OVER IT.
August 24, 2009 at 6:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chicago_Thug (anonymous) says...
So what you are saying gringolandia, is that those that volunteered to serve their country, and entered into a contractual agreement with the Federal government, spent 20 or more years in the military and retired, thus fulfilling their part of the contract while putting their own lives at risk, while some of them lost their lives or became disabled, according to your sick thinking, are '...folks suckle[ing] on the gov't teet...'
You display your amazing ignorance by comparing retired military members to those that are un-willing to do anything more than live off the nanny state.
You are by for a complete moron and coward.
I would dare say that first; you are the one that sounds like your consuming fecal matter, your own as well as the crap that the democrats and their left-wing media, are shoveling, and second; you lack the intestinal fortitude to stand up for your self against a little school girl let alone don the uniform that the brave troops of this nation wear poudly.
You are a perfect example of a big mouth bully, yelling insults from behind the safety of his mommies skirt.
August 24, 2009 at 10:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
Here's a tip for you: don this, you dork.
lol @ QueenLatifah aka Chicago_Thug aka BlackRain (Queen Latifah reference, what a pansy!)
Get back on that teet, and STOP breathing through your mouth!
August 24, 2009 at 10:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chicago_Thug (anonymous) says...
Thank you for proving my point. A perfect example of a big mouth bully, yelling insults from behind the safety of his mommies skirt.
Really, are you that much of a failure as a 'man'? What a total misfit you must have been as a little boy.
You have a complete lack of character. A simple forum troll with no meaningful life but the deluded world of your small and limited mind.
August 24, 2009 at 11:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
Your response was expected. You have been made to look foolish and you resort to your canned response, attempting to sound as if you're taking some high road. But ultimately, you have been called out for the phony POS that you are. End of story.
August 24, 2009 at 2:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
"Laura- this board is infested with brainwashed lackeys, a bunch of middle class conservative humps that think that it's cool to ardently defend the wealthy."
also...
"The other bunch of loud-mouthed Obama / Healthcare reform bashers are retired military folks around Charleton. These folks suckle on the gov't teet on one hand and scream about how gov't is too big, spends too much etc. on the other.
They like to say all gov't is bad, except for the gov't that serves them and their needs. What a bunch of delusional, selfish fools."
You appear to be in denial of reality. Attacking me won't help you.
August 24, 2009 at 2:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chicago_Thug (anonymous) says...
You think I am attacking you and here you are attacking retired military members from behind you keyboard? What a complete bozo.
Actually gringo, you have made yourself look foolish & you have been called out for the phony POS coward that you are by insulting millions of retired military members that have defended this nation and your worthless and wretched butt.
THAT is the end of story. I dare say again, you would not have the intestinal fortitude to stand up for your self against a little school girl let alone don the uniform that the brave troops of this nation wear poudly.
You are in a word; disgraceful.
Since you can contribute nothing but childish and ignorant insults towards retired military folks, you are no longer worth my time.
So go jump back behind mommies skirt, and see if you can get a little reassurance about your 'manhood', what a joke.
August 24, 2009 at 3:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
You continue to distort reality. Ex-military, good for them, way to go guys! Even a complete loser like you can have friends and "fit in" in the military. What were you anyway, a cook? A mechanic? What a f'ing hoax you have yet again been shown to be.
I never insulted ex military. My point is that those with full gov't insurance benefits should stay out of the health care reform discussion.
August 24, 2009 at 3:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chicago_Thug (anonymous) says...
Ok, last time.
First, I never said I was in the military, I just took offence to your insulting those that have served with your ignorant comment; '...folks suckle[ing] on the gov't teet...'
Second, you DID, insult all retired military that EARNED their retirement check. They fulfilled their part of the contract. And now you insult cooks and mechanics that have to go through the same training and deploy to many of the same hot zones as other military members. Man you are indeed the brave one, such a tough little guy.
Third, its not 'full government coverage', if you take the time to read up on VA coverage, there are premiums and deductables. Service related disabilities are covered and treated by the VA, but everyday common illnesses are usually farmed out to a 3rd party provider so the Vet does not have to wait months for an appt. Not saying the VA gives bad service, but they are over burdened and tied up in red tape = GOVERNMENT RUN HEALTHCARE.
fourth; again, retired military have EARNED their retirement check and VA benifits. They fulfilled their part of the contract.
and last; why should they have to stay out of the debate, they pay taxes too. Why is it you Obama supporters think you have some kind of right to tell others what they can and cant say or debate? You feel elite?
Free healthcare for those that wont to do anything to help themselves, but sit around with their hands out does not compare to the sacrifice the military member has made.
Now, I probably just wasted my time typing all this, because all you seem to want to do is play troll boy. But for the benifit of others, there it is.
August 24, 2009 at 3:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chicago_Thug (anonymous) says...
Yes, lets trust the feds with our private health care, by all means....
'1,200 veterans wrongly told they have ALS
Associated Press - August 24, 2009 1:04 PM ET
CHARLESTON, W.Va. (AP) - At least 1,200 Gulf War veterans across the country have been mistakenly notified by the Veterans Administration that they suffer from a fatal neurological disease.
National Gulf War Resources Center Vice President Denise Nichols says panicked veterans from Alabama, Florida, Kansas, North Carolina, West Virginia and Wyoming have contacted her group.
The letters dated Aug. 12 were intended to notify veterans who have amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, or Lou Gehrig's disease, of disability compensation benefits available to them.
Calls to the VA were not immediately returned Monday.
Nichols said the VA is blaming a coding error for the mistake.'
August 24, 2009 at 3:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
What is so great about the way privately run health care is administered today?
Since apparently your "Chi_Thug" persona was not in the military (i got him confused with your "BalckRain" persona), how are you going to pay your health care bills in 10 years, when costs are expected to reach $36k per year for a family of four?
WHat about hard working, middle class humps just like you that work hard every day and can't get coverage or get dropped for no known reason?
Is that the "American Way"? Is that good for our country?
I hate to break it to you, but who do you think pays the bills of those currently uninsured? Your posts reveal that you're clearly not the brightest star in the sky, but surely you cannot be that dumb, can you? Are really that much of a complete flipping idiot? Maybe you are.
What i cannot relate to is the stubborn opinion of conservatives like you that believe that every dollar spent by the government goes directly to the black man so he can sit on his porch and drink beer.
I've said that many times, yet none of your online fantasy world personas had the balls to respond.
You can try to keep making this about me, but it's the sick thinking of the extreme right that's destroying this country.
August 24, 2009 at 3:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
real_news (anonymous) says...
This question is a (right-wing) loaded question, or it is an incomplete question.
Because the question is NOT just that:
"Health care, is it a Right or Privilege?"
But 1st the question is:
"Does the Government have a Right or a Privilege to our incomes in form of Taxes?"
The answer is that the Government has a Right to our Income in form of Taxes since
we do not pay Taxes on a voluntary basis but we pay it under the Law and under
the threat of going to Jail if we do not pay our Taxes.
So if the Government has the "Right to our money in form of Taxes" as a result of
which we pay about 40% of income in various forms of Taxes, from income Taxes,
to property Taxes, to sales Taxes, etc.
THEN we indeed have the RIGHT to get value for our Taxes and the least of these
values is to get the best health care possible for the Taxes that we are paying the Government.
So the best Universal Health Care is indeed a Right of the Citizens, as it has having the best
Military, Police, Fire Department, etc. for the Governments Right to Tax us.
This is something that EVERY European Nation, Canada, Australia, in FACT all Developed
nations have realized and have been practicing but US!
So how is it that ONLY in US the Government has been able to get away with Taxing its Citizens
while not providing us with health care for these Taxes,? The answer is the one of the Ultimate Con
Jobs in the History of man kind has been played on American people by the Republicans,
and Democrats too, for the benefit of the Rich, Big Pharma, Big Corporations who control our
Media and that Ultimate Con Job has been:
"Government cannot do anything...."
"Government is the problem not the solution..."
etc.
Which translated means:
1- You the People cannot do anything since the Government is the representative of the People to decide what
happens to our Taxes
2- Pay Taxes and ask and get nothing for your Taxes such as Universal Health Care.
The result of which Con Job is that our Taxes go to the benefit of the Rich, Big Pharma, Big Corporations, etc. rather than going to our benefit.
So indeed we have the Right to the best Universal Health Care and Education for the Governments Right to Tax us, otherwise we should be paying 5% of our income in Taxes and not current 40% and then we will gladly buy and can afford private based health insurance.
All of which points prove how right-wing entire US Media/Gov are and what utter lunatics Republicans are because Obama/Dems are not proposing Universal (single payer) health care and Republicans are still calling it "Socialism", more on this here:
http://www.anoox.com/blog/real-news.a...
August 24, 2009 at 4:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
Although i am quite sure you read my last post Chi_Thug, I didn't think you would respond. When presented with reality that you don't agree with you often attack or slink away back under your slime covered rock.
August 24, 2009 at 7:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nighttrain (anonymous) says...
Simple question to the Democrats who beg for Govt controlled healthcare. The pendulum of political power has a history of swinging from one party to the other. Do you want a Republican House, Senate, and President to be in charge of your healthcare?!?! Private healthcare providers will quickly disappear with the invocation of Obamacare. And sure as sh#t, your medical care will someday be provided, monitored, delayed and denied by the very Republican politicians that you despise. What a bunch of idiots you'll turn out to be for selling your soul to vote for your team instead of thinking for yourselves.
The Federal Government could provide constructive management of the complex healthcare system but is incapable of effectively providing the service. For 6 yrs you called the Fed Govt: inept at saving the enviroment, international criminals for declaring war on Iraq, and thugs for treatment of prisoners in Gitmo. Now you want them to provide your healthcare?
You are either trolls, ignorant hypocrites, or of very low mental capacity.
August 24, 2009 at 11:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gringolandia (anonymous) says...
nightrain: Fail
lmao, what a pathetic loser
August 25, 2009 at 11:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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