Council passes two faith-based resolutions
Hargett, Rosebrock push for week designated for religion
By Bo Petersen
ST. GEORGE — Two godly resolutions were passed by Dorchester County Council on Monday, in short order. What's going on? Politics, two government observers say.
Councilman Larry Hargett's resolution supports a dormant congressional bill that would establish the first week of May as "Religious History Week."
Councilman Richard Rosebrock's resolution supports a Statehouse budget amendment proviso mandating that institutions of higher education not neglect religious programs, classes or buildings even though federal stimulus money won't pay for them. Rosebrock said he wants the week designated "America a Christian Nation Week."
Rosebrock's resolution is titled "Supporting Legislators for their fight for Our Religious Freedoms."
Hargett's resolution quotes Rabbi Daniel Lapin saying it's a liberal goal to destroy religion in order to destroy our freedoms, and like banning civilian firearms, it's a common communist and fascist tactic.
The two measures passed 6-1. Councilman Willie Davis, one of two Democrats on council, raised the only objection, voting against both resolutions and noting the U.S. House Majority Whip Jim Clyburn, D-S.C., was not included in a list of congressional members given Hargett's resolution. "Seemed like to me it's right down party lines," Davis said.
The ruckus reminded David Mann, College of Charleston political scientist, of Charleston County Council's attempt in 1997 to get the Ten Commandments posted outside council chambers. After a $45,000 legal battle by the county, it was ruled unconstitutional.
"Local politicos regularly want to stimulate their base by bringing religion into local politics more directly," Mann said. It doesn't work; there's a clause in the Bill of Rights that's in the way, he said. "It's not government's job to endorse the faith."
Neal Thigpen, a political scientist at Francis Marion University, said, "I think it's in their power to pass such a thing." But the resolution "is absolutely pro-gun, pro-Christian. I'm surprised they don't have anything in there about taxes or big government," he said. "Let's face it, the Republican Party is trying to get traction in order to make a comeback in this country" even in stronghold South Carolina, where the Democrats made in-roads in the last election.
Hargett and Rosebrock don't agree.
Hargett said he is responding to his constituents' concerns and pointed out that Republicans and a Democrat on the council supported the resolutions. "There's no politics involved at all from my standpoint," he said.
Hargett said he was spurred to do it by recent news stories about Obama's declaration that the United States is no longer just a Christian nation and a Newsweek magazine article titled "The end of Christian America."
"I know we're a Christian nation. We absolutely are a Judeo-Christian nation. Seventy percent of people polled say they go to a church or synagogue," he said. The congressional bill was sidelined in the last session and has not been reintroduced. "A lot of people are pushing Congress to get it out of subcommittee and pass it."
"Our nation was formed by religious denominations and ordained by God, and I feel we've slipped a lot in the last 20 years," Rosebrock said.
From the "Dorchester County Faith Resolution"
"Whereas the Dorchester County Council, an elected body with strong Judeo-Christian beliefs in God and His teachings, do hereby affirm the belief and conviction that America IS a Christian nation ...
"The Dorchester County Council also holds to the truth in the statement by Rabbi Daniel Lapin, America's Rabbi, 'the destruction of religious freedom in the United States ... is the goal of liberals because to do so would destroy our freedoms. Once religion is removed from our Country, the State becomes the omnipresent and oppressive "God." This and banning of civilian firearms, is the common tactic that communists and fascists have used throughout history to oppress the people.' "
Reach Bo Petersen at 937-5744 or bpetersen@postandcourier.com.
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Cid95 (anonymous) says...
We are a nation of Judeo-Christian cultural values, also known as Western values. That is 100% true, and immigrants to America have always adopted those values no matter where they came from. That must continue.
Our nation is not made up of only Jews and Christians, nor has it ever been. Nothing is changing there either.
April 21, 2009 at 2:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
EqualityB4theLawThinkAgain (anonymous) says...
I am a strong believer in the seperation of church and state. Many of our founding fathers practiced Daism, not Christianity. I'd rather see the county council do something about lowering my taxes, solving the homeless issue, providing affordable health care to all residents. Personally, I think the tax exemption for religious organizations should be repealed and all non-profits have to pay taxes like any other corporation in America. Few really do anything for the people of this country, while most seem to suck up large amounts of money for the people running them.
April 21, 2009 at 6:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lowcountrymouth (anonymous) says...
The plain fact is that seperation of church and state exist no where in the Constitution (this belief is one of the biggest mis-conceptions of our time). This nation was established on Christian principles, and our entire legal system is based upon the Bible, in particular the Old Testement at its very core.
The Constitution does say that the government can not establish a religion. This is a far cry from the current trend to attempt to silence people of faith from contributing to public discourse and serving in public office.
April 21, 2009 at 6:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tulane75 (anonymous) says...
While freedom to practice one's religion is important (and not just for minorities), these resolutions are ill conceived.
April 21, 2009 at 6:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
watchdog (anonymous) says...
EqualityB4the lawthinkagain- You are right, and the church should pay taxes because they just line their own pockets, screw the rest. Lowcountrymouth, you are a idiot, you never solve the problem, religion is the base of our problems. What do guns have to do with religion anyway?????
April 21, 2009 at 6:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ColdBud (anonymous) says...
So now we have a Taliban equivalent in Dorchestor County. Government mandated beliefs. I'm not surprised. Religion, ANY religion, is simply a crutch for weak minds. Weaks minds, obviously, are not smart minds. This kind of stupidity from religious nuts can be expected.
In the mean time, tax payer money goes in to the pockets of fat cat lawyers that know how easily this stupidity can be defeated in the Justice System. That's OK. All of our local governments are rolling in cash. Right?... RIGHT?
April 21, 2009 at 6:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
3olivesmike (anonymous) says...
I hope all my Jewish friends recognize the term "Judeo-Christian" for the BS it is. Right wing religious zealot politicians realize it would be political suicide to say what they think: that the USA is for all practical purposes a Protestant country. So they tip their hat to the only other two groups that could challenge their elections - the Jews and the Catholics.
April 21, 2009 at 7:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CaribMark (anonymous) says...
How can a nation as diverse as the USA have a week calling itself Christian? I suggest the legislators wake up, look around and while their at it, open their eyes.
April 21, 2009 at 7:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
As a Christian citizen, I think that this is a waste of council's time. This is not the way by which you are known to be a Christian. As far as taxing goes, you folks that beleive in the mythical separation of church and state should not want it both ways. You insist the church stay out of government but simultaneously insist the government get involved with the church. Now, now, don't be so transparent. Historically, your myth is partially based on the inability of the state to tax the church. Oh, how a Christian is known is found in the New Testament, and why the state cannot tax the church is found in just about any American history book of about 40 years ago.
April 21, 2009 at 7:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
devilsadvocate77 (anonymous) says...
This is what our elected officials have time to waste on? Promote their own christian agenda? Have they not noticed the state of the economy of the county, state, the whole USA? There is no money to fix roads, upgrade schools, provide essential services among many other things the council should be addressing. They need to be serving their constituents of every religion not alienating them in favor of their own personal views. They were not elected to promote their views, they were elected to serve the people's best interest...all people. Then they dragged some Rabbi's statement in to somehow justify they are righteous and that somehow makes it for 'all' people. How about fixing potholes, how about getting funding for law enforcement, how about getting computers for schools, promoting recreational activites, and I could go on and on with all real problems that face taxpayers in the county everyday. I will remember these characters and come election time if they run against a 3 legged dog, I am voting for the dog.
April 21, 2009 at 7:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Patrick Henry - It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here.
This is the way it has always been. The truth is, Christians are far more tolerant of people of other faiths and more tolerant of atheists than vice versa. For the last four decades, the American public school system has been teaching kids to FEAR Christianity. Obviously from the posts here (and those to come throughout the day) their strategy has worked. When you develop the attitude of trying to keep religion within the four walls of a church, you may want to know that this was the same attitude of Adolf Hitler toward the Christians of Germany. Wake up! Freedom of religion is freedom of religion, not freedom to an extent. Christians should be permitted to live their faith in the public square and it is a FACT that the US was founded on Christian principles. But if you reread Patrick Henry's quote, NO ONE is being forced to do or believe anything, never has.
April 21, 2009 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Grashuslawd (anonymous) says...
I am a devout Christian. But the resolution is wrong, not only because it fails to acknowledge the contributions to American life by other faith traditions, but also because it is clearly contrary to the Constitution, the same document written by men not all of whom were Christian (some were Deists).
Who will create the curriculum for "Religious History Week"? Will it be a committee comprised only of Christians, and if so, only Protestants? Will Catholics or Orthodox Christians have a say? Whose version of history will be highlighted? Will the Papacy be presented as an institution responsible for corruption or as a divine institution of pastoral shepherding? Is the Bible to be understood literally or is there to be acknowledgment that it is a book comprised of all sorts of literary types including hyperbole?
If my child is a student in Saint George and we are Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Native American, Buddhist, Ba'hai, or atheist, will our religious perspectives be included even though they are not Judeo-Christian?
By no means am I anti-religious. I am strong in my Christian beliefs. That is my choice in this land of religious freedom. But it is clear that our Founding Fathers (most of whom were also Christian) clearly mandated that the government stay out of religious affairs.
For a governmental body to impose any expression of religion whatsoever is no freedom of religion at all.
April 21, 2009 at 8:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Obdewlla_X (anonymous) says...
lowcountrymouth, CAN you READ? How about get somebody to read aloud to you the First Amendment in the Bill of Rights. It states in part: "...Congress shall make no laws respecting establishment of religion..." It further states that Congress shall not restrict the expression of religion by citizens.
Since you seem to have the IQ of a spoon (with apologies to all hard working spoons), I'll explain it to you: Congress, i.e. the Government, may neither promote nor interfere with religion. If that's not separation of church and state, I don't know what is.
Your comment is patently false and reflects perfectly the ignorance of you and your religious zealot ilk.
The rest of us need protection FROM religion and your stupidity. Religion is truly the drug of choice of the mentally incompetent.
April 21, 2009 at 8:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
GeneralSumter (anonymous) says...
The fool has said in his heart, 'there is no god.'
April 21, 2009 at 8:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
3olivesmike (anonymous) says...
"Since you seem to have the IQ of a spoon"
Let me guess. You haven't been on any debate teams lately.
April 21, 2009 at 8:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BulldogTLC (anonymous) says...
Great post Greyrider. It always amazing me how tolerant Christians are expected to be of other religions, but the same courtesy is not extended to us. Freedom OF religion does not mean freedom FROM religion.
April 21, 2009 at 8:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
3olivesmike (anonymous) says...
Now I'm curious. I'm a Christian. I don't feel any threat in this country to the free exercise of my religion. That would include speaking about my beliefs in a public place if I chose to do so. I also notice that religious members even come on my property and the private property of others to present their views and they don't seem to feel threatened. Sooo - can one of you Christians tell me how you've been thratened?
April 21, 2009 at 8:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...
"This is the way it has always been. The truth is, Christians are far more tolerant of people of other faiths and more tolerant of atheists than vice versa."
I call BS, apparently you did not come from the same bible thumping part of SC that I did!
"For the last four decades, the American public school system has been teaching kids to FEAR Christianity."
WRONG, Christians have done a good job of doing this without the help of another institution.
"Obviously from the posts here (and those to come throughout the day) their strategy has worked. When you develop the attitude of trying to keep religion within the four walls of a church, you may want to know that this was the same attitude of Adolf Hitler toward the Christians of Germany."
More sensationalized BS, as if you don't believe what I believe your a nazi. What crap!
"Wake up! Freedom of religion is freedom of religion, not freedom to an extent."
If only we could be so lucky!
"Christians should be permitted to live their faith in the public square and it is a FACT that the US was founded on Christian principles. But if you reread Patrick Henry's quote, NO ONE is being forced to do or believe anything, never has."
Yet these same words you spew puts your religion on a pedestal and alienates people that do not believe what you believe.
April 21, 2009 at 8:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...
"This is the way it has always been. The truth is, Christians are far more tolerant of people of other faiths and more tolerant of atheists than vice versa."
Posted by GeneralSumter on April 21, 2009 at 8:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"The fool has said in his heart, 'there is no god.'"
I was wrong greyrider, you are sooooo on the money!
April 21, 2009 at 9:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jammer (anonymous) says...
we're not a nation of black people either but we have a black month...
national breast cancer awareness month, we don't all have breast cancer
a month dedicated to organ donations but we don't all donate
womens history month of march, we aren't all women
hispanic month etc etc etc
so what's to be upset about if many want a month dedicated to religion?? are you just jealous??
lets send some cheese to those that want to whine about it... just DO NOT participate in it if you don't agree, it's that simple!!
I don't participate in any of the other so called months but I'm not running around moaning and groaning about them
sounds like we need a "this isn't about you" month... lol
April 21, 2009 at 9:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
Could it be that the alienation felt by non-christians be the calling in everyone's heart to God and a self-denied conviction of sin.
April 21, 2009 at 9:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Obdewlla_X (anonymous) says...
You're wrong, Bulldog. Freedom of religion implies that all citizens are free to practice the religion of their choice, INCLUDING NO RELIGION!
Your cockeyed theory would have participation is some religion as mandatory, which is clearly in contradiction to the Bill of Rights.
You and LCM should go to the library and get one of the nice folks there to READ the Bill of Rights to you, since you're clearly an illiterate boob also!
April 21, 2009 at 9:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
devilsadvocate77 (anonymous) says...
Jammer One thing thing to note about your months..they are all non-denominational causes. Breast cancer strikes women of all religions, organ donations can be made by anyone of any religious background, blacks and hispanics may not all be Christians. Want a Religion month? Go to the church of your choice for 4 Sundays but keep it off the governments agenda.
April 21, 2009 at 9:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
Great post, Grashuslawd. Nice to see someone who realizes that religion (or the lack thereof) is a personal thing for people of diverse backgrounds and should have nothing to do with government.
April 21, 2009 at 9:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BulldogTLC (anonymous) says...
No, OB1, I am right, my fredom of religion is not effected by your freedom from religion. If I want to practice my religion in public building across this nation, there is nothing that you can do about that. If you want to not practice religion in any public building, you have that right as well, but your freedom to not practice cannot infringe upon my freedom to practice. Your offense at my religion cannot limit the practice of my religion.
April 21, 2009 at 9:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
I'd like to stop the posting of quotes from our founding fathers to support that they were either Christian's or not before it takes up space here.
I've read many of the original correspondence and writings from our founding fathers and there is plenty of evidence that some of them (Franklin and Jefferson, most notably) were certainly NOT Christians but rather Deists or atheists. (Read the book "Moral Minority" for examples of the evidence.)
However, you can also find plenty of quotes from the same guys suggesting that they were, indeed, Christians. So either side can cherry pick the quotes they want to support their beliefs.
Saying our system of laws is based on the bible doesn't hold water, either. The laws that the bible espouses were around well before Jesus in various ancient societies. The folks who wrote the bible (and those who have since revised it) simply applied that these laws were the "word of God" to reinforce them.
I am all for a religious history week if it encompasses all religions without favoring any single one. The history of religion is fascinating! Unfortunately, I really don't think that this is what the legislators have in mind for this bill. The proper name for it should be "Christian Propaganda Week."
Most notably, in a few short decades, given the current trends, religion (in the U.S.) will be just that - history.
April 21, 2009 at 9:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Dharma (anonymous) says...
You say that Christians accept non-Christians more than other religions accept to them.
Why then had a man who called himself a Christian rip a Buddha Fish off of my car? He stood behind the car and waited for me to come out of Target to apologize but that hardly negates what he did, does it? I had to have the car fixed where the paint was tore off.
I also have a Coexist bumper sticker on my car. At Bi-Lo I had a woman offer to pray for my soul because I had all those pagan symbols on my car. I have had business cards with prayer lines shoved in my drivers door window and under my wipers.
If Christians are not threatened by other religions why go through all of this?
How many times have any of you been approached by a Buddhist?
We should not legislate or mandate another persons faith or beliefs.
I fear having something like that pass will lead darker things.
April 21, 2009 at 9:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
3olivesmike (anonymous) says...
WhatMeWorry
Exactly right. Introducing students to the history of all religions and to the origins of religion itself is a great idea. However the proponent of the RHW believes this is a Christian nation. That in itself reduces the idea from a worthy exercise to a pile of crap aimed at constituents who are only threatened by their own narrow minds.
April 21, 2009 at 9:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sark (anonymous) says...
"Patrick Henry - It cannot be emphasized too clearly and too often that this nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religion, but on the gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason, peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity, and freedom of worship here."
a)Patrick Henry was wrong. Plain and simple. You may recall the treaty the US signed with the Barbary states in 1798, which explicitly stated that the US was not a christian nation. Treaty passed by the senate and approved by the president > quote from one founder.
b) I could not possibly care less what the founders thought about religion. They're dead. This country exists for the living. The founders were right on some things, wrong on others, they sure as hell weren't deities.
c) the US is a secular nation with a majority christian population. That does NOT equal a "christian nation". For example, Turkey is majority Muslim, but it is NOT a "Muslim nation". Iran is a Muslim nation.
d) US law is based on a) the English common law, and b) social contract theory. Not the Old Testament.
April 21, 2009 at 9:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
How do these resolutions force anyone to do something? They don't. And please don't hand me the non-argument about taxpayer money. For every thing that taxpayer money is spent on, someone somewhere objects to it.
And please read the specifics here. This is about the role that the shared general principles of Christianity have played in America. This has nothing to do with Catholics, Protestants, or doctrines debated within the Christian community. There are not going to be government leaders preaching from a pulpit. This is about historical facts, not how to interpret various passages of Scripture or what people should believe. If we can't have anything that smells of religion involved in any way with government, then what do we do with the Declaration of Independence and its various religious proclamations? Ban it?
April 21, 2009 at 9:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
The Barbary Powers conflict was seen by some as a new Crusade. Muslims wanted war with what they saw as "Christian Nations" including the USA. The Treaty of Tripoli refers to the fact that the founders did not believe in forced conversion as did the Muslim nations of that day. They did not see themselves as being out to kill Muslims. In that regard, we were not a "Christian nation" in that non-christians were (and are) welcome here. See my previous quote from Patrick Henry
April 21, 2009 at 9:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
various quotes from John Adams - "Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."
"The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity"
"I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
John Adams - what's he know?
April 21, 2009 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
52 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independence were mainstream Christians (read THEIR writings and not the modern-day revisionists). Their own written testimonies completely violate deist/unitarian doctrine.
April 21, 2009 at 9:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
James Madison - "We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We've staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
Chief architect of the Constitution, things that make you go hmmm.
April 21, 2009 at 9:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
beefsaver (anonymous) says...
Allow me to share with each of you the sincere chuckle I received at the lesson on our (evident) legal heritage. Supposedly, our nation was founded upon the model found in the Old Testament. While that does explain the slavery, I'm overcome with the irony of someone from South Carolina advocating an "Old Testament" model for our laws. Please tell me that you don't have bumper stickers for "Friends Don't Let Friends Eat Imported Shrimp," "Bessinger's BBQ," or USC/Clemson football. All of those activities are, of course, forbidden by the Old Testament. Let us not even approach the ideas of adultery, which is rampant in this state. Tread lightly when cherry picking your citations from the Good Book.
For the record, both of these resolutions are strictly chest-thumping acts. Establishing "Christian Heritage" week in the vein of "Black History" month would be fine, but "America as a Christian Nation" week? Please. Let's get down to brass tacks: this resolution means "America was born to be a Christian Nation, but not any of those annoying, so-called Christians from Greece, Italy, France, Russia, Poland, or Ireland... or the North." Forgive me if I'm not swooning.
April 21, 2009 at 9:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BulldogTLC (anonymous) says...
Greyrider.... you're going to confuse everyone with facts.... Great posts.
April 21, 2009 at 9:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sark (anonymous) says...
As I said Greyrider, I could not possibly care less what the founders thought. They're dead. We're alive. You can quote them all day long, it won't faze me. This is our country, not theirs. If we want our government to be secular, we don't have to be shackled by what people 230 ago thought.
April 21, 2009 at 10:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
beefsaver, you may be shocked to know that I somewhat agree with you. It would actually be more accurate to say that America was founded as a Biblical Nation instead of using the phrase Christian Nation. It was the Old Testament that played the dominant role. In fact, official Congressional Records show that Deuteronomy was the most-often quoted book by the Founders. And yes, there are many activities running rampant thru SC and America that violate OT teaching, although I would dispute whether football or other sports do. The Bible is full of references to sports and historical records show that sports were acceptable in Ancient Israel. In fact, the fact that these activities take place is part of the motivation behind many seeking a return to the old moral standards in America.
April 21, 2009 at 10:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
R_U_Kidding_Me (anonymous) says...
Black History get's a month. Judeo-Christians get a week. hmmmm.....
I think they should both dissappear. These are topics created just to give us something to argue about when we should be concentrating on more important matters. It's the same technique magicians use. It 's called distraction.
April 21, 2009 at 10:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Sark, you're right in that we are not legally bound to uphold Christian principles, but we WERE founded on them, and we would be wise to return to them. The Founders were right. The Woodstock crowd that sought to expunge America of God back in the 60's were, and are, wrong. Their ways don't work.
William Penn - "Men must be governed by God, or they will be ruled by tyrants"
April 21, 2009 at 10:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
chaseducator (anonymous) says...
Why can't people just be satisfied with their own spiritual beliefs? Why do many insist on forcing their beliefs on others? The FACTS are that our nation was not ordained by God, nor was it founded upon religion. The Puritans were only one group that settled here before our nation was created. Other came here seeking profit or for other non-religious reasons. Our nation was founded upon the ideals of freedom and tolerance - a democracy and not a theocracy. Salem failed due to the strict religious standards forced upon citizens. We are not a Christian nation, but a nation where people have sacrificed their very lives to assure choice, freedom, and tolerance. A true patriot would understand that forcing any belief on another is not the spirit of our nation. It seems even more absurd that these lawmakers (posturing for the sake of public approval and votes) ignore the fact theat we have chldren who are malnourished, poorly educated, and many homeless right here in SC. Why not be a true Christian and actually help your fellow man rather than pretending that a week dedicated to a specific organized religion actually helps anyone. These lawmakers should pray for more guidance and look for ways to actually serve our State. Again, there are plenty of issues to tackle that would really make a difference. I hope the ACLU will protect the spirit of our nation and assure that no such resolution passes. Every religion already has holy days. A true follower does not need a civic tribute as well. Get over yourselves and start helping!
April 21, 2009 at 10:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
Well, now you did it. Despite my previous post, someone had to go an post quotes from John Adams and James Madison to show how Christian they were. To prove my point that you can find quotes to support either side:
"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." -John Adams
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole cartloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
-John Adams
"The purpose of separation of church and state is to keep forever from these shores the ceaseless strife that has soaked the soil of Europe in blood for centuries." - James Madison in an 1803 letter objecting use of gov. land for churches
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not." - James Madison in "A Memorial and Remonstrance", 1785
There - you posted one quote from each to show that they're Christians, I posted two quotes from each to show their disdain for Christianity/religion.
Now can we agree that we can each find quotes to support our own beliefs?
April 21, 2009 at 11:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
I'll say it again: Our legal system is based on the common law system of England, which is based on the bible, which is based on the old testament, which is based on a myriad of legal system before it.
Saying our legal system is based on the bible is like saying our legal system in April is based on the legal system from March.
The set of laws put forth in the bible was part of the evolution and progression of law and society throughout human existence.
(That may be the first time I've ever written the words "bible," "evolution," and "progression" in the same sentence without laughing!)
April 21, 2009 at 11:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
Jesus could not get elected president today because his views were too "liberal."
April 21, 2009 at 11:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WhatMeWorry (anonymous) says...
whistlingdixie, Haroldreems is not an idiot. Do you know how hard it is to memorize the questions asked of a Miss USA pageant contestant the way he did? (10:42 post)
While the rest of us are lazily reading books and engaging in adult discussion, he's diligently cataloging the questions asked in a beauty pageant! How else can he choose which lady should win?
Truly, a dizzying intellect, that one.
April 21, 2009 at 11:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Obdewlla_X (anonymous) says...
Chaseducator, actually this country was founded on slavery and genocide, both of which were practiced enthusiastically by the so called Christians in the name of their god. Oh, and there was the profit motive, but I quibble. Democracy and representative government were for the land owning elite. Twas ever thus!
April 21, 2009 at 11:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eyfigueroa (anonymous) says...
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!COLDBUD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
*walking up and giving a hug*
Nice to see you again!
April 21, 2009 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Numba10 (anonymous) says...
Jammer----------your list shows just why yhere is so much devisiveness in the nation----It has been created by all these government sanctioned divisions of people----in your list tho you will notice there was no mens month---no white history month--no russian history month---no chinese history month---no muslim history month -Just as recently--the new administration started aprogram for girls and women---shouldnt they have created at the same time a men and boys program----they are the one group continually forgotten
April 21, 2009 at 11:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
a_set_love (anonymous) says...
DAMN COLDBUD
April 21, 2009 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
schrutebeetfarms (anonymous) says...
i am a christian. i do not want the government teaching my kids about religion. any religion. especially if they're going to only spend a week on it. and especially if it's just a pep rally for the historically inaccurate notion that our founding fathers envisioned our country as a christian nation.
i'm not sure if this makes me a right winger (because i don't want the gov'ment doing anything) or a left winger (because i don't want anyone's brand of religion shoved down my throat or my children's throat).
all i know, this is a bad idea.
April 21, 2009 at 12:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
NO...No...I'm a better Christian than you are!
No....No....You are not, I AM!
Please, is this some type of contest to see who has the ear of god the most?
How about you practice your beliefs in the way you feel best serves your god and leave the rest of us alone.
Oh and by the way....this will never float. It will be challenged and a suit will be filed and these elected officials will cost their constituents more money in the long run.
How about we just buy them a couple of big wooden crossed for, what $50.00 bucks each and they can drag them around all day long.
They feel like good Christians, no law suits and the rest of us will not have to endure any more of this opium of society
April 21, 2009 at 12:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bflosue (anonymous) says...
If you live in Dorchester COunty, be prepared for an expensive lawsuit! Then throw out these idiots in the next election!
April 21, 2009 at 12:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
UrGatorbait (anonymous) says...
I'm glad the important issues get handled so fast. What a state, wallowing in religious bigotry that is clearly demonstrated by our beloved lowcountrymouth and jammer.
Then we are treated to the odd sprinkling of quotes and other assorted "supporting" evidence. Good job. It's no wonder this place is last.
Pluffmud, I agree, religion is a core issue of what is wrong. It causes more problems than it's worth.
April 21, 2009 at 12:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
guidedbystewart (anonymous) says...
greyrider, It is the I'm right; you are wrong mentality that Christian's spew that makes non-christians such as myself, so irksome and disdainful toward you guys.
BTW being non-christian does not make a person immoral. I have natural emotions such as empathy that are much better that some sort of antiquated biblical canon to basis for my mortality.
"Could it be that the alienation felt by non-christians be the calling in everyone's heart to God and a self-denied conviction of sin."
Nope, I don't think so. Even if there is a God, I doubt it would be insecure enough, being that it is all powerful, to demand that we worship it. I think that the alienation comes through a representative body, in this case a representative local government, one that is supposed to represent all people, putting one belief system ahead of others and having that government body recognizing that belief system as the superior belief. There are thousands of beliefs, even here in the United States, so to put one ahead of the others undermines the differences in viewpoints whether yours is the perceived majority or not.
April 21, 2009 at 1:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
By and by harold: The teaparty of 250,000 country wide does not represent America, not even close.
It says that a certain segment of our society........
April 21, 2009 at 1:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
This resolution clearly violates the establishment clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
It also violates the SC Constitution which states, "SECTION 2. Religious freedom; freedom of speech; right of assembly and petition.
The General Assembly shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble and to petition the government or any department thereof for a redress of grievances. (1970 (56) 2684; 1971 (57) 315.)"
If you start here, you'll end up attempting to referee fights between different sects of Christianity before long, which was the origin of that part of the First Amendment. With over 1000 different Christian sects, there has been and will be plenty of stuff to fight about without engaging the Hindus, Jews or Moslems. The founding Fathers wanted to be sure the Government didn't end up picking sides in fights between Christians. They probably understood it would apply to other religions at the time and intended it to, but that was pretty academic in the 1780s. That had centuries of purely Christian bloodshed to consider. Ask the French Protestants who came to South Carolina about their persecution by the Catholics. Ask the Catholics in England about their persecution by the Protestants. No need to be exotic at the time to find good reasons to keep Government out of the Religion business.
It's UnChristian and stupid to set up a wasteful legal battle at a time when our local governments can't fund essential services. What new activities or programs is someone planning to establish when we can't keep English and Math teachers in our schools?
Incidentally getting a resolution passed by Dorchester County Council won't get you an inch closer to heaven. It's the work of your hands, heart and soul which accomplishes that. God does not need the approval of Dorchester County Government.
April 21, 2009 at 1:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimjones (anonymous) says...
I was a God once. Then I shot myself in the head.
Jim Jones
April 21, 2009 at 1:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charlestowne2 (anonymous) says...
What is it about guns the bible and the south?. It seems they can't be seperated. All of these religious types need guns to protect themselves. Some are afraid to drive their kids to school without a gun. I think they are just waiting for the opportunity to shoot someone. Fine Christians I am sure.
April 21, 2009 at 1:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
devilsadvocate77 (anonymous) says...
Former Sen. Randy Scott is a Christian. After the Wiccan case was won to ban prayer at council meetings, Scott said he was still going to do a prayer no matter what the United States courts said. Then he is arrested for drunk driving and yes, the charges were dropped, but did you hear the recording of his jail house call to his wife? He said God damn this, God damn that, so many times a sailor would have blushed. This is an example of the hypocritical views of politicians who try to inject their personal views on the tax paying public.
April 21, 2009 at 1:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
devil - Thanks for reminding us.....Christain values, SSSUUUUURRRREEEE?!
April 21, 2009 at 1:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
If Jesus made one of his own disciples put down a sword that he was using to defend them and then healed the wounded attacker's ear, how do Christian's figure they should be shooting people? I can't reconcile the Gospels with assault gun ownership.
Make a full commitment to Christianity or reserve the right to shoot people, but you can't do both.
April 21, 2009 at 1:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Obdewlla_X (anonymous) says...
Hear, hear! Well said WJH3. It sure is nice to hear a literate and cogent argument for once!
April 21, 2009 at 1:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Luna (anonymous) says...
grey - "old moral standards"....what slavery & injustice?
April 21, 2009 at 1:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
zoomru (anonymous) says...
LOL......LOL ....LOL !!!
Citizens of this great state.....BEWARE...!!! These two yahoos (Hargett & Rose-BUCK) are in BED with their friends BO and Charles and Bobby Harrell and Robert Ford, and Katon Dawson and DEM Queen Fowler to do....WHAT !?!
That's right...to waste ink and tax payer funds to FROTH up fumes that distract US all from what we have in COMMOM......ENERGY !?!?!
Bobby Harrell and Robert FORD....you punks !!! Getting these squatters to introduce time wasting "YOGURT" that BO Petersen and Charles ROWE just laps up and shove down the THROATS of unwitting READERS.....!!!!!
THANKS A LOT....!!!!
Bobby and Robert.....you mean that you two are not going to call these two BOZOz and ask if they have FELT the BREEZE lately...!?!? Do these two "Frotherz" even have a clue that their TRASH is PLASMA ENERGY to be Sold to generate TAX REVENUE instead of this STUNT...!?!?! What are these two LOYALISTS doing to harness their COUNTIES ....ENERGY !?!?!
It is plainly obvious that they DIVIDE their fellow citizens...!?!?!
My BACKSIDE.....!!!!! TRUE South Carolinians see right through this PLOY and charade...!?!?!
Bobby and ROBERT....do you NOT think that your campaign DONORS will wake up to what is OUR state's problem to reviving OUR economy...!?!?!
Take your DOGS for a walk ...and PONDER...!!!
"Mirror, Mirror....on the WALL. Who in OUR STATE bring the economy to a STALL..??"
WE....ARE .....FED.....UP !!!!!!!!
"Its the ENERGY...STUPID; NOT ....RELIGION.."!!!!!!!!
April 21, 2009 at 1:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
wjhamilton3 (anonymous) says...
They will print up postcards saying the lone opponent of this resolution voted against America being a Christian nation and put together some cheap radio ads and the mail and broadcast that right before the next election. People will march to the polls feeling that voting against that member of council will allow them to score a few cheap points with God and cover some of their sins. It's hard to lose that way in Dorchester County.
The County get sued and lose and pay the other side's attorney's fees. They'll damn the ACLU hoping that they can score more cheap points with God and Jesus. They'll get on talk radio some and all their friends will talk about what great Christians they are.
The children, poor, disabled and needy will watch this waste and wonder why these Christians decided to spend their time, energy and money on a political stunt in these times of need.
God, who is a lot smarter than the average SC County Council member will know it all, understand it all and judge it perfectly.
April 21, 2009 at 2:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jimjones (anonymous) says...
zoomru is the second in command at my Church. I love that guy/girl!! Great posts always!!
Jim Jones (I have great flavor-aid)
April 21, 2009 at 2:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reader (anonymous) says...
I don't doubt that the US was founded by men who were, by and large, Christians. But, I never understand all of the people who claim that the country was founded on Christian or Biblical principles. Exactly what does that mean?
Where in the Bible (or Christian dogma) does the concept of tri-partite government make an appearence? Where in the New or Old Testament does the idea of an indepedent judicial branch as a check on the executive crop up? I don't remember learning about democracy in Sunday school. Where did Jesus talk about the executive branch having the power to set foreign policy and conduct wars? Did Moses preach to the Jews about why they needed to have a central government create a postal service?
Sometimes people will trot out things like the Ten Commandments as the source of all American laws in the early days. But, first, most of the Ten Commandments don't have any parallels anywhere in federal law. And, second, certainly almost none of the early federal laws have any analog in the Decalogue. For example, there are no federal laws criminalizing adultery.
So again, and I am not just baiting the right-wingers here, exactly where do you see Christian principles made an actual part of our government?
April 21, 2009 at 3:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Surfcaster (anonymous) says...
I have seen no comments about brobama having Christ taken out of the Church at Georgetown University. The "white" house call the university and requested the removal of Christ before obamessiah's speech.
April 21, 2009 at 4:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SCHoser (anonymous) says...
Even if you don't believe in God, it is hard to get around the fact that God has been an integral part since the founding of this Country. Our officials are sworn in with what book? What words appear on all of our currency, all officially stamped documents? We are "One Nation, Under God....". There are references to God everywhere throughout this Country. But, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. you don't NEED religion in your life to be a decent human. Don't get values and religion confused-you don't need one to have the other. It is your right to believe as you so choose, everyone has that right. I won't insult those who choose not to believe, so please have the same courtesy for me. This is such a huge issue with so many angles, there is no way to have a coherent discussion without it going to hell.
April 21, 2009 at 4:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sark (anonymous) says...
"I have seen no comments about brobama having Christ taken out of the Church at Georgetown University. "
That might be because this story isn't about that.
April 21, 2009 at 4:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
abitskeptical (anonymous) says...
The resolutions are a waste of time & resources, not to mention just a bad idea all around.
That said, I always find it interesting that the agnostics & atheists feel qualified to make definitive assessments & comments about religion/faith being a crutch &/or something practiced by the weak minded.
Perhaps they are basing this on the "religious crazies" who scream the loudest. In doing that they always seem, conveniently, to forget people like Mother Teresa, St. Francis & countless others whose faith & religion drove them to selfless service of their fellow humans. I'd really like someone to explain to me how they used their religion as a crutch & exactly how weak minded they were.
Personally I have found that incorporating "religion" into my daily living often makes things more difficult & requires deep, sustained, & "higher plane" thinking/analysis & understanding. But maybe I'm just not as smart as all the agnostics & atheists.
PS
welcome back COLDBUD..I began to wonder if you'd gone to heaven :)
April 21, 2009 at 5:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Yall are missing the point. We are obviously a Christian nation because Christ was a white anglo saxon, born in Bethlehem Pennsylvania. Haven't you seen those pictures of him on the walls in the churches? He's obviously an American of European extraction.
Welcome back coldbud!
April 21, 2009 at 8:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Hey skeptical, are you saying that if it weren't for the Christian Faith mother Teresa and Saint Francis would have been mass murderers, or at least less caring about the suffering and needs of those around them? It always amazes me how people will hold up good people of faith and say it's the faith that made them good, like without religion they'd be scum of the earth like all those other non-christians.
April 21, 2009 at 8:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mkris (anonymous) says...
The problem with religion is there are too many Christians and not enough lions.
April 21, 2009 at 8:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
Two admirable resolutions! Especially seeing as our Judeo-Christian heritage is not the flavor-of-the-day with Obama.
In fact, take a gander at this:
"Abraham Lincoln was Born a Muslim, says Film Maker"
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?...
###
Also, some very sincere and well-meaning Muslim bloggers now refer to America's "Judeo-Christian-Muslim" heritage.
The handwriting is on the wall, people. And it's in Arabic...
April 21, 2009 at 9:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
commonsence (anonymous) says...
Dopey councilmen pandering to even dopier constituents. And we wonder why the rest of the US mocks this state.
April 21, 2009 at 9:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
abitskeptical (anonymous) says...
Nope major, not saying that at all. Didn't think it either. Sorry to disappoint you. Talk about a convoluted speculation (on your part).
It always amazes me when people put words in another's mouth so they can then "jump all over" what has been said, or rather, what has not been said in this case.
I'm merely addressing those who claim/assume that those who adhere to a faith/religion are using it as a crutch & are weak minded. I still haven't seen an "answer" regarding folks like Mother Teresa using religion as a "crutch" & being "weak-minded".
Why do you seem to have a problem with my asking if those who claim such things apply that reasoning to the type of people I mentioned? Just curious.
April 21, 2009 at 10:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yird (anonymous) says...
This has been interesting but not very informative. These tired old arguments come up every time anything of a religious nature is written in the paper.
As I've said in previous posts I'm an agnostic. As such I don't feel threatened by the exclusion or the placement of religious symbols in any location. If the school state or country wants a "Religious History Week" so what!
There are those who liken any effort to promote a religious belief or symbol as placing us just one step away from becoming a Taliban type theocracy.
Yet those same individuals get all disjointed if someone draws a parallel between the suppression of religion by Hitler and Stalin with the resulting oppressive tyranny that followed, and the possibility that it could happen here if we continue to attack all things religious.
Did any of you ever consider that many among us are prevented from adopting criminal behavior because there particular religion teaches them that such actions will subject them to eternal damnation?
Those communities that adhere to strict religious doctrine, the Amish for instance, have very few problems with crime unless it happens to be committed against them.
And you naive individuals that think gun ownership is a right only championed by people with a religious bent are dead wrong.
I have zero religious beliefs and I own a number of different types of guns. It's a pure fact that governments that restrict religious freedom will eventually restrict gun ownership and when that happens a police state emerges with all it's inevitable tyranny.
I know it's too much to expect of most progressives but if you read about how many countries that have gone down this path you may understand why so many are not willingly "turning the other cheek" on these issues.
I'm not clinging to a Bible and bear no malice towards those that do, but I am damn sure clinging to my guns.
And wjh3, a semi automatic, military appearing rifle is not an assault weapon.
Assault weapons are fully automatic and ownership of them is already highly regulated by the federal government.
As such I don't think there is going to be too many crazy Christians running around shooting non believers with their machine guns(assault weapons) so you can put your fears to rest.
No doubt you are aware that your beloved ACLU was founded by communists although that probably means nothing to you.
It does to some of us though!
April 21, 2009 at 10:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Cid95 (anonymous) says...
Reader (Apr 21, 3:22pm),
Good Post. I'm not sure what box I fit into as an atheist and a fiscal conservative (and thus unrepresented by either of our tweedle dee and tweedle dum political parties) but I agree with you.
April 21, 2009 at 11:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
abitskeptical (anonymous) says...
Join the club Cid...I don't know what box I fit into either.
I am a devout, but highly flawed, person of faith who believes certain drugs & prostitution should be decriminalized.
I also am a fiscal conservative & I believe the Patriot Act is an abomination.
I believe any & all laws regarding life & death issues should be based on the human rights aspect(of all life involved) & not a bit on any religious angle.
I fail to see how religion precludes gun ownership nor how gun ownership "invalidates" one's religion.
I know many people of faith(those who "cling to their religion") who do not own a single gun & I know people like yird who are agnostic or non-church going believers who target shoot regularly.
I also know a number of liberals (Christians as well as Jews) who "cling to their guns"...
Of course they mostly are southern, so maybe that throws off the whole presumptive formula (right wing extremists clinging to their religion & their guns).
Not fitting into any particular box is a good thing, IMHO.
I do happen to like thinking for myself & it appears you & a few others do also.
April 21, 2009 at 11:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NormaRae (anonymous) says...
A "godly resolution?" A nation founded on the Bible? Uh..... Beg to differ.
From what I remember, this nation was founded on the principle of religious FREEDOM! Yes - founded by people who left their homelands in Europe so that they could worship as they CHOSE. Where have we gone wrong? For starters, those very people who came here for religious freedom met up with the true Native Americans and began to give them the freedom to worship - as long as it was the religion chosen for them - and gave them the freedom to live on reservations and to be driven farther and farther away from the land they loved and respected.
Religious freedom is actually quite simple - You practice your religion, and I'll practice mine. I will not preach and hand out leaflets or anything else to lead you to believe that one religion is superior to another. I'll stand and FIGHT for you, even if we disagree about religion, so that you can continue to practice your religion in safety and with dignity.
What do I ask? That you simply return the favor. Do not hound me in train stations or when I'm walking down the street by pushing pamphlets into my hands. Do not ask if I've "been saved." Do not try to scare me into thinking that my soul is headed toward a place you believe exists. That's your religion - not mine. Instead, simply give me a "good morning" and be on your way. I will return the courtesy.
April 22, 2009 at 12:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Sark (anonymous) says...
Hey Skeptical, check out the book "The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice". It paints a less than flattering picture of the paradigm of virtue herself.
April 22, 2009 at 10:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Didn't mean my comment the way it might have come across skeptical, no insult to you intended. What I meant was that holding certain religious paragons up as examples of the good of a certain religion both ignores the paragons of other/no faith and thereby distorts the issue and implies that these paragons were only good people BECAUSE of their faith (the one being held up as the cause of good) rather than because they were just good people who happen to be a certain faith. I suspect Mother Teresa would have been the same paragon of virtue as a Jew or Hindu, or as an atheist for that matter.
April 22, 2009 at 10:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
abitskeptical (anonymous) says...
major-I did not intentionally leave out good people of other faiths. I typed the first 2 that came to mind off the cuff.
As I said before, I merely was addressing the claims/accusations (by atheists or agnostics) that people of faith/religion(whatever one wants to call it) are weak-minded & use the faith as a crutch (whatever the hell that means).
My purpose was not merely to hold up those people as paragons of goodness because of, or in spite of, their faith (however you wish to look at it-that is a potentially complicated discussion for another time perhaps).
I just challenge those who make certain claims to apply them to people such as I mentioned as well as to the Dali Llama, Gandhi, C.S Lewis, Hugh Ross (astro-physicist & devout person of faith), any of the many learned rabbis, etc.
It is interesting that in asking whether the weak-minded & crutch reference applies to Mother Teresa or St. Francis no one has addressed that issue which I raised but rather went off on a tangent to argue whether
1.their "goodness" really has anything to do with their religion & 2. whether Mother Teresa really was good anyway.
Neither of these ideas are directly related to my question.
I suppose I just do not understand why someone feels the need to practically verbally annihilate another's entire intellect because opinions & beliefs differ. The thing that is so ironic is that the people who do this(in this case agnostics & atheists) think of themselves as being logical, reasonable, & intellectually superior to people of faith.
April 22, 2009 at 2:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
Mother Teresa was walking down the street with a friend when the friend pointed across the street at a prostitute and made a derogatory comment about her. Mother Teresa stopped and told her friend "Don't say that. If it were not for the grace of God, I could be that prostitute"
April 22, 2009 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Mabilene (anonymous) says...
Mother Teresa was a true servant. She started out with one friend, one borrowed apartment and one nursing course. Her first patient was a dying man she picked up from the gutter in the slums surrounding her apartment.
Of her first day she said:
"Such a beautiful day . . . to meet Christ face to face in the poor. He was there -- the hungry, the sick, the naked Christ -- and the thought of Him in this distressing disguise gave me great joy, peace and strength."
April 22, 2009 at 7:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
abitskeptical (anonymous) says...
Sark-I am aware of the less than flattering paint job done on Mother Teresa by Hitchins (as well as by a few other "painters").
I take that, as I take a lot of other things, with a grain of salt. Honestly, I have not done a lot of in depth research on Mother Teresa. Even so, I can see that some of what Hitchens reports has some grains of truth. HOWEVER, it is just as clear that he has taken many things out of context. Things taken out of context often have little value when it comes to the truth.
I'll reserve final opinions on this matter until I have looked into more sources, but thanks for the impetus to do so.
April 22, 2009 at 7:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
regroce (anonymous) says...
quoting Patrick Henry doesn't support your argument in any way. Henry tried to amend the constitution of Virginia to read that all residents had to belong to a church, and had to pay taxes to that church. Henry's amendment was refused. Henry also wanted our government to finance churches. That was refused. You can quote him all you want, but taht doesn't make it historical fact of relevance to our constitution. Dorchester County Council violated law.
May 4, 2009 at 4:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
carolinainfidel (anonymous) says...
I am an atheist who FIRMLY SUPPORTS RELIGIOUS BASED PROGRAMS and especially religious history week. It is sad to read all of the pseudointellectual arguments against God claiming that some of our founders were deist.
The main two were Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson and even though they did not believe that Jesus was the son of a creator, they firmly believed that the principles laid out in the JudeoChristian Doctrine were the best to govern by. HUndreds of quotes can be brought forth from our founders to show that they firmly believed that biblical principles were engrained in our laws.
A few facts atheists and other phony protesters must swallow.
Jesus Christ did exist and many people believe that he was a Messiah. Principles laid out certain principles in the Bible/Koran/Torah, like it or not, have been chosen as the best to live by for centuries.
Nearly every written or spoken code of law since the Hammurabi Code was based on some religious doctrine.
Fact is, people who wish to erase God actually wish to replace God. Our founders gave us God, no particular God but a higher power, so that men always had a power higher than government. It insults egoist atheists that want to tell men how to live that they would rather look to a ficticious God than their great (pseudo)wisdom. Our very liberty was considered granted by God by our founders so that men would never answer to government. We the people are the boss and the government the employee and it is so because our founders, though they may not have believed in one partcular God, believed that all men should answer to God, not man.
We are far from a theocracy because we can choose to worship whatever God we choose, Shiva, Buddha, Allah, or even Al Gore and the Green Movement. We are not required to pay hommage to any one God or religion. It is denying this right to Christians that is unlawful.
As an atheist, I for one would rather answer to a God that does not exist, than men who believe they are God.
This is a quote from Franklin from 1790. "As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity" (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)
From Jefferson's "Jeffersonian Bible, "This is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw".
Some men misuse God's power over people for their own gain. Our founder's used the power of the word God to keep people FREE from tyrants.
May 9, 2009 at 9:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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