Shame on the Princeton band

Posted by fromoff on September 21, 2008 at 2:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Try sitting rows up from the Princeton band and explaining the aggressive behavior of the cadets and the presence of policemen to your eight and ten year old children. Try walking down the ramp with your young daughter to get some drinks and having two large groups of cadets (at least fifteen to twenty in each group) staring you down. And while you are at it, be sure to talk to the young women from the visiting team's band that was harassed to tears on the way to the bathroom. Then tell me that the Citadel cadets and leadership are without shame.

From a disappointed Southerner.

Posted by tigerfan94 on September 21, 2008 at 5:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

They are without shame, it is the Princeton band who displayed a lack of respect and sportsmanship.They owe The Citadel a apology for their bad behavior, the cadets were protecting what is theirs and were right to do so. They made a female band member cry? so what, they insulted their school and mocked them what did they expect to happen at a military school? Did they really expect to be greeted with a warm showing of southern hospitality? When you make an obvious attempt to disrepect them by invading their campus and trying to take over? What do you think would happen if they attempted to march onto a parade field West Point while cadets were on the field? I can promise you it would not be a warm greeting. why didnt you explain to your daughters that Princeton had displayed poor sportsmanship and caused the bad feelings by displaying a total lack of respect toward the Citadel Cadets and their campus.OOH RAH! to the Cadets for protecting THEIR school and THEIR parade field.Congrats to The Bulldogs for sending the Tigers home with their heads down in shame.

Posted by lowcountrydawg on September 21, 2008 at 5:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Great job by the "Warriors of the Ashley" for defending their turf. They let these retarded individuals come down to the South and mock our Cadets. These men and women who are committing their lives to 4 years of military-type training instead of going to a liberal arts school to party and miss class by oversleeping. Shame on Princeton...I thought they wer IVY League??!!

GO DAWGS!!!!!!

Posted by ImplantedYankee on September 21, 2008 at 8:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

fromoff -- you can explain to them that this is what might happen when visitors demonstrate such bad manners and disrespect, especially towards a school steeped in such pride and tradition. So much for Ivy League sophistication.

From a disappointed northerner.

PS: Score More! Score More! Score More! Score More!
How clever these Ivy league fellows are...../sarcasm

Go DOGS!

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 8:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

is it wrong to walk the campus ? I think cadets are wrong here for bullying people. these are the traits of low self esteem people who can't deal with something different and don't know how to act besides fighting when confronted with intelligent civil minds.
I have seen this Princeton show before and didn't enjoy it and I agree they shouldn't disrupt college classes (marching?)

Posted by Tulane75 on September 21, 2008 at 8:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

In 1975-76 the Tulane University basketball team played the Citadel in Charleston. They had long hair and stripes on their uniforms. We heard many of the same comments about disrespect and apologies owed. Apparently, in the era following Vietnam, the Tulane team didn't look right for The Citadel and its fans. Not that it matters, but Tulane is every bit as Southern as The Citadel!

I like The Citadel, but it sounds to me that they have (had) a "chip" on their shoulder(s). This was a football game, not a turf war!

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 8:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Maybe these honorable young men and women shouldn't be hazed so much. Bullying and harassment are not trait's for our nations military elite but I guess they have been under the bush way of life and think this is a proper American response to weird people walking on a field.
In 2006, The Citadel released a survey that found the school leading other military academies in reports of sexual assault and harassment. In response to the results, the college put in place the VALUES and RESPECT PROGRAM, which requires all cadets to participate in lessons on sexual harassment and assault, alcohol and drug abuse and the school's honor code.

Posted by scconservative on September 21, 2008 at 9:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

HighDef, get some treatment for that terminal BDS case ya got there! What are the juvenile fools that post this tripe going to do when George Bush leaves the WH?

Posted by Lea243 on September 21, 2008 at 9:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Did any of the parents get upset watching Santa being stabbed during half time? I could not believe that the band was allowed to continue on after the first "stab" in light of recent college campus acts of violence. I have lost all respect for Princeton and there should be a letter of apology sent to the Citadel from each member of that band.

Posted by rld1771 on September 21, 2008 at 9:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Let's shell Ft Sumter! :-)

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 9:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm glad this band can take Charlestonian's mind away from the youth burning crosses in your (ass)backyard.Santa getting stabbed is better than him having gay sex right ? I watched santa get drunk on TV ! I guess the onset paranoia has subsided and the cold truth of his unsuccessfull presidency is now a fact in our countries history.
Bush Derangement Syndrome as "the acute onset of paranoia in otherwise normal people in reaction to the policies, the presidency — nay — the very existence of George W. Bush".[

Posted by Floger76 on September 21, 2008 at 10:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)

HighDef - Were you on campus to witness the anticts of the Princeton Band??? Do you have any idea of what got these Cadets riled up in the first place??? I didn't think so. As far as the 2006 survedy is concerned, you may want to actually consult some Cadets who took it. You may then actually learn something. But I'm sure you have made up your mind allready. Don't let the truth get in the way.

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 10:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

no i wasnt present but i've seen them perform over 20 times and even while I was playing on the ice, never have they physically hurt anyone. Citadel has many fine young men but they also have a bunch of jerks (lawyers) that we read about in the police blogger, all i'm saying is the way they treat people that are diff. isn't right and def. not southern.

Posted by Floger76 on September 21, 2008 at 10:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 8:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

is it wrong to walk the campus ? I think cadets are wrong here for bullying people. these are the traits of low self esteem people who can't deal with something different and don't know how to act besides fighting when confronted with intelligent civil minds.
I have seen this Princeton show before and didn't enjoy it and I agree they shouldn't disrupt college classes (marching?)

Do you actually think the band was just walking on campus. You ARE deranged. "Intelligent civil minds"??? I guess this description helps you with your lame argument. These band members acted neither civil or intelligent while on The Citadel campus.

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 10:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

please tell me what was said that's so offensive. Did they plant a burning P in the middle of the field, did they burn a flag ? If so , shoot em

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 10:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ivy League = Open to new thought and idea's Bill Gates etc..
Citadel= Closed minded, hazzed students (Shannon and Pat O'Conner)

Posted by Floger76 on September 21, 2008 at 10:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)

HighDef-It was not their performance on the football field that was the problem. It was their acts that morning on The Citadel campus (parade field) that caused the problem. These acts were not just "different". They were antagonistic, and vulgar. That is what caused the problem. They went on campus in the middle of the corps field day program to delibrerately provoke a response from the corp. They got a response. I guess they were not used to that. I am sure that they can normally disrespect an entire student body at most campus' they visit, and simply have everyone applaud their progressive attitude.

Posted by Floger76 on September 21, 2008 at 10:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)

By the way. Shannon never joined the corp of cadets. She never even spent one night in the baracks. And I think you most likely meant Pat Conrad. And to find dout how he feels about The Citadel, read the link below. But by reading your comment, you actually said that the close minded students are Shannon and Pat. You most likely have one of those Ivy League edumacations!

http://www.herritage.com/kilo/conroy.htm...

Posted by NativeSC on September 21, 2008 at 11:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

High Def=Douchebag - is that close minded enough for you, smart guy?

Posted by Floger76 on September 21, 2008 at 11:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Excuse my typo, I meant Pat CONROY.....

Posted by UrGatorbait on September 21, 2008 at 12:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Uh-oh somebody disrespected that bastion of all male hormones and they did all they know how to do, flex their muscles instead of thinking and taking the high road. Shocked indeedy. Plus they made Burger mad. Boo Hoo.

Oooooo

The school president knew of their antics. Reading is fundamental folks. Did did he warn the cadets? Did he ask the visiting band to try and respect certain traditions and areas of the school?

If he warned the cadets, then I would say the institution has a fundamental problem with leadership and control, if the cadets weren't listening and threating others like thugs. From the account of the first poster, it sounds like they are far from a disciplined group of men who will be put in future positions of leadership.

The maturity level of the cadets is in question. Who cares if a bunch of yahoos, who the president knew was coming, walk around like idiots. Let them be idiots. The knee jerk Pavlovian response to get macho on them is silly. They lack control, not what I looked for in my military leaders. Definitely not a good trait to be missing when deployed.
Critical thinking is missing somewhere. Lack of judgment on the part of the TACs, cadets and the president added to the recipe for trouble. I would expect more from people who are potentially going to be in positions of life or death calls. The lack of judgment is terrible. The reported acts of the cadets lowers them to the level of the antics of the band that bothered them so. I'm glad some cadets apparently had the cool heads to stop the violence.

Just what we need more violence. Protect out turf. Glad to see the pack mentality alive and well here. The Mighty Citadel corps of Kadets fights off 40 people dressed as clowns. Bravo. Evolution going backwards.

Oh yeah never question authority, speaking up might lead to thinking, keeping us out of wars, the current financial crisis or might lead to...shhhhhh...there's that word again...thinking.

The Citadel is an archaic piece of history that showed it's true colors yesterday.

Disgusted southerner.

Posted by alfrente_2001 on September 21, 2008 at 2:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Wait, wait, wait. Let's all back up a minute here.

Ken, the one thing your article didn't tell us is, what exactly did the Princeton Band DO that was so offensive? You only say that they were "mocking" the Citadel...but don't all schools mock their opponents at athletic games? You say that the Princeton Band "sashayed" on the Citadel campus, but they're a scramble band, not a marching band, so "sashaying" is just how they walk from place to place. I don't get it.

It's a really important detail that you left out of your article, and before I judge the Princeton Band myself, I'd like to know what exactly the issue was. If they were doing something horrible, like harrassing or bullying cadets, or causing property damage, then I'd agree that they deserve to be chastised. But if all they did was walk around and yell school slogans, I don't understand what the fuss was about.

Anyone care to explain?

Posted by ImplantedYankee on September 21, 2008 at 2:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Allow me to provide an analogy, since apparently common sense and good manners aren't part of an ivy league education.

If you ever invite someone over to your house for dinner, and, after arriving, they proceed to disrespect you and your house, while under your own roof, making low-brow jokes and snide comments about you, your family, your race, and nationality, and topping it off by urinating in the urn containing your grandmother's ashes, you'll understand how these Princeton fools acted. If you can defend their actions, then you're just as worthless as they are. They got their just desserts and are lucky it wasn't worse.

Alfrente -- since you asked, I'll give you a run down of just that of which I am aware (there could have been more):
Not only did they mock and ridicule the corps of cadets, they also insulted the military and our country. Even worse, they did so from the Avenue of Remembrance -- hallowed ground for The Citadel. It's where the long gray line memorializes those whom have fallen in the service of this country.

After the altercation on campus, members of the band proceeded to instigate confrontations with the corps in the stands while at the game. The cadets that went over to harass the Princeton side were doing so in response to this.

During the performance, things got worse. I can almost guarantee that the speech read by their announcer was NOT the one agreed to by the school. It was blatantly insulting and inflammatory -- an especially poor choice given the already volatile atmosphere. Again, not only the school, but the military and the country were insulted over loudspeakers for all to hear. Also -- for all their self-righteously claimed intellect and civility -- the announcer called women "broads" during his little routine.

Posted by strebel82 on September 21, 2008 at 3 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Since when is it ok for Yankees to come down and mock a school's proud heritage, and tradition. Princeton comes to The Citadel, walks onto their campus, their parade field, mocking the cadets and they are suppose to shake their hands and say,”Nice to meet you?” get a grip. They stood up for their school, period. Standing up for your school or your heritage is not shameful. I’m sure it wasn’t just the male cadets involved, last time I checked The Citadel is co-ed. WTG cadets, nice job sending those carpetbagger, scalawag Yankee elitist back home disgraced. So the Princeton band was embarrassed, THEY SHOULD BE! humping in a band show, stabbing santa,mocking school tradition, and those of us with pride are suppose to sit back and watch it happen, say its OK because they are Princeton. I don’t think so. If anyone owes anyone an apology it should be PRINCETON for starting the problems but disrespecting The Citadel, all the cadets did was finish it, and stand up for their school. So they showed pride in their heritage, they were being invaded and they stopped it. It’s what you do when someone invades your turf. So the band was booed, chances are it wasn't just the cadets doing the booing, I’m sure they had lots of help for the alumni in the stands. I will never stand and cheer for vulgarity, nor would I want to explain to my eight year old daughter how it’s just good fun. As for the Citadel cadets encircling the Princeton band, I'm sure they were just helping to escort them out of the stadium, as any good southern gentleman would do to help out a female.
-A Proud Southerner

Posted by elcid81 on September 21, 2008 at 3:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I think the President of the Citadel and athletic department need to send an apology as well. We should not have allowed these clowns on the campus. What did they expect this "band" to do. They should have done some intelligence on their band. I remember the NCAA prohibited the Stanford band from playing at events for a couple years as a direct result of tasteless pranks and displays. Hopefully the NCAA gets a chance to review the proud Ivy league athletic supporters.

I only hope hope the Princeton "band" travels to another country and try their tactics. See what kind of response they receive. I bet they would never try it again. Nice job Dogs! Good luck the rest of the year.

Posted by at_the_armory on September 21, 2008 at 3:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As a Princetonian who was at the game and someone with many friends who are currently members of Princeton's band, I assure you, Mr. ImplantedYankee, that the half-time show script was the one that Citadel Athletics agreed to let them perform. In fact, the band had submitted a slightly edgier version of the same jokes earlier that week to The Citadel. They asked them to censor/modify them, so they did. What resulted was what you probably strained to hear over the PA system.

Additionally, you claim that the band "mocked & ridiculed" the cadets and "insulted the military and our country" in the morning on campus from the Avenue of Remembrance. Such a thing did not happen. The band simply marched through campus in two lines to a simple drum cadence. In fact, no words were spoken by the band before the cadets became rather physically abusive. If the simple act of setting foot on Citadel's campus is perceived as disrespectful, then so be it, but Citadel Athletics should not have granted the band permission to do a campus walk-through if it was going to be received so negatively. Yes — The Citadel gave the Princeton Band permission to parade through campus.

Even if the band HAD treated the Citadel disrespectfully (which they did not), that does not excuse the cadets of also behaving disrespectfully, which they definitely did.

Posted by ImplantedYankee on September 21, 2008 at 3:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

strebel -- it's never been ok for anyone to do that, yankee or otherwise.

Posted by ImplantedYankee on September 21, 2008 at 3:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

armory -- your description of the march is NOT the same as that given by the cadets involved.

Additionally, the school, the military, and the country were ALL mocked and ridiculed during the announcer's routine, which, though straining, I did manage to make out.

The fact that any portion of the weekend's shenanigans were sanctioned by any school official is just proof that the school is suffering from having too many administrators that have no prior ties to The Citadel.

If the athletic director approved the script -- perhaps he thought it would fire up the team in the second half. It did.

Approved or otherwise, the Princeton band shouldn't complain about the consequences of their own remarks.

Posted by elcid81 on September 21, 2008 at 3:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

For Princetonian - They obviously do not teach common sense at the Ivy League schools - What good do you think comes from marching through a scheduled military event at a military school? You are a fool and need to move back north.

I will await sending my next check to the Citadel until I get a response from the President's office. When they call for my money, I will explain why. I fix some of the blame on my Citadel security and administration for not immediately stopping the "band" from disrupting the cadet activities.

I invite the Princeton Band to try this again on the 23rd of Oct at Camp LeJunene, NC where we will be honoring our fallen classmate and military members killed 25 years ago in the Lebanon barracks bombing. Let's see what kind of response the Marines give them.

Posted by CitadelGrad on September 21, 2008 at 3:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)

at_the_armory, your handle indicates you are a current or former member of the Princeton U. Band. Are you surprised a Citadel grad would know the significance of the armory to Princeton's band?

Several eyewitnesses have told me that band did far more than walk through the campus to a drum cadence. Their intent was to provoke, although I'm sure they did not expect the reaction they received. What reason would the band have to march through campus if not to provoke the cadets. If they simply wanted to see the sights, they should have requested a tour. I'm certain the Citadel would have been happy to oblige.

Posted by at_the_armory on September 21, 2008 at 3:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

ImplantedYankee --

While I am somewhat biased as a Princetonian, I like to think I have a certain level of understanding, being born and raised in Richmond, Virginia (for those of you who don't know, the former capital of the Confederacy). I was eye-witness to the morning's events on the Ave of Remembrance, and not a single Princeton Band member said anything to a cadet before the physical abuse and unprompted retaliation began. Perhaps you should look towards the honor and integrity of your local cadets to see where the real problem lies.

All scramble bands rely on satire for their half-time material. While the band made light-hearted jokes about the Citadel and U.S. politics, it also made fun of Princeton, the Ivy League, and the Band itself. If the SC/Citadel crowd wasn't going to have a sense of humor about it, The Citadel should not have approved the show. Both Princeton and The Citadel okayed the script, so the band should not be considered guilty for performing it.

Posted by high_standards on September 21, 2008 at 3:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It is very disappointing to read that the Citadel does not hold itself to higher standards of behavior than the common drunk at a bar. If this is the level of discipline that we Americans can expect of our armed forces, the future is a very, very dark place. In the future, I may be forced to accept as true media reports of soldiers in Iraq murdering civilians in response to being taunted and mocked. Apparently that is not only an entirely plausible situation, but at least some people in the Citadel's extended community would see it as entirely acceptable. Let's hope that West Point, Annapolis, and the AFA are more successful than the Citadel at training disciplined military personnel and leaders.

Posted by at_the_armory on September 21, 2008 at 4 p.m. (Suggest removal)

CitadelGrad -- if you know as much as you think you do, then you'd know that Princeton's ROTC program, along with many other student activities, is housed in the Armory (well, it was before the Armory was torn down). I'm really just an eye-witness Princetonian trying to give some balance to a lot of the baseless claims that have been made against the band and the school in this article and the comments.

Many marching bands, not just scramble bands, conduct rallying march-throughs at campuses they visit. It's just part of game day. I attented USC vs. UVA a few weeks ago, and USC's Trojan Marching Band did a march-through performance at Virginia's Grounds. No one really cared. From what I understand, SoCon bands do not do this at The Citadel (I wonder why...), so I guess the cadets aren't used to it.

From what I saw, there was no instigatory behavior on the part of Princeton's marching band.

Posted by CitadelGrad on September 21, 2008 at 4:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm aware that many student activities were based at the Armory, but I'm fairly certain you were not involved in ROTC. None of that is important, however.

As a former member of the Citadel Band and later a graduate student at a Big Ten University who attended many football games, I can tell you that pre-game march-throughs by visiting bands usually take place in conjunction with alumni association-sponsored events. As far as I know, Princeton alumni gatherings were held around Johnson Hagood and not within the Citadel's gates. What possible reason would the Princeton Band have to march through the Citadel (and through cadets, I'm told), unless it was to provoke a response from the cadets?

Your repeated assertion that the Princeton Band did nothing more than march down the Avenue of Remembrance doesn't hold water. Several witnesses to the confrontation, whom I believe to be impeccable, have stated otherwise.

Posted by clyoushaete on September 21, 2008 at 4:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Having arrived just before kick-off, I, as apparently were my seat-mates, unaware of any pre-game taunting by either side, so the spectacle at half-time was completely immature. You could not hear what Sam was saying on the speaker so as a spectator, you only heard booing while the band was playing. This type of behavior, is not only disrespectful, but shows a huge lack of class on the corps. If it was a joke, they should have let Princeton make asses out of themselves, the corps didn't have to join them at that level! Or, again, is that the type of leadership they are teaching the new corps?

Posted by at_the_armory on September 21, 2008 at 4:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I can't speak to what the band or its members were thinking when they paraded through Citadel's campus. All I can say is what I saw yesterday morning. The Band did not appear to me to be instigatory. They were marching down the Avenue until a great number of cadets blocked every conceivable means of egress for the band. Then the band "scrambled" around the cadets to gain passage, but regrouped back on the other side after a number of band members were physically confronted by cadets and two administrative officers came out.

It should be noted that the officers punished some of the cadets and allowed the band passage.

Posted by elcid81 on September 21, 2008 at 4:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Armory....and others, I am a Cid grad and apologize at the events. We do share in the blame as our young men take much pride in our institution. We I a cadet, I assure you that I would have made the same mistake for I hold my campus and uniform in high esteem.

Our school should have not even scheduled such an event with your liberal thinking students and alumni. You all look for opportunities to display your ignorance...and the Citadel could not have given you a better platform.... At least the Citadel should have reviewed the events that your institution sponsors and gotten a clue. I can assure you if I were Gen Rosa, your band would have been warned and not been welcome.

I apologize to the youth that had to witness the results of immature behavior. If you look above, I will be sending The Citadel a letter as they should accept responsibility. Additionally, I will not be sending my next installment to scholarships as a result. I hope they read this...This is event should and could have been avoided.

Career Soldier and Citadel Grad

Posted by SOSblows on September 21, 2008 at 4:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Citadel cadets have a sense of power/accomplishment for nothing. You go to a school where you pretend to be a soldier when you are not. You are phoneys and losers...and probably homosexual. I mean, who chooses to go to a school where its 95% men.

"but i can do 30 pushups in 10 seconds" - cadet.

great, you're a fruit, congrats.

Posted by tigerfan94 on September 21, 2008 at 5:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOSblows
what hatred an vile coming from one person. Obviously you are one that could not handle Knob training and left.As someone with Military experience I would rather have a Citadel cadet leading me,than a Priveledged West Point grad.Citadel Cadets are well prepared for the rigors of the Military,and better prepared in the qualities of being a great leader. They are well respected for the training they recieve while a cadet at The Citadel and are some of our Militarys greatest leaders. Something you apparently have no first had knowledge of. The Citadel defended their turf, their institution, and were right in doing so. Princeton did more than walk through campus, they invaded a parade field where cadet activites were being performed. I have walked the campus of The Citadel many times while wearing a Clemson shirt and have never been ridiculed, or attacked or mocked.but I didnt walk across their parade field while they were having activities either, as a matter of fact, I dont walk across it at all. I am not a Citadel Alum, so I dont walk across their field, I walk around it.Its called RESPECT.Something that is obviously not taught at liberal northern schools.

Posted by SOSblows on September 21, 2008 at 5:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

For every great Citadel leader you can name, i'll name 30 from West Point. The Citadel is a fraud.

Posted by citadel_cadet on September 21, 2008 at 5:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Let me start by saying that I am currently a junior cadet at The Citadel, and was directly involved in the altercations yesterday.

Lat me start with a message to SOSblows:
I would like to thank you for your so eloquently worded comments above. I think that having the disapproval of someone of your caliber is the nicest compliment I have received in a long time. On behalf of the South Carolina Corps of Cadets: I would like to thank you for that. It is obvious that you have not been afforded the privilege of a military experience. Hopefully no one grants you that opportunity because it should be reserved for individuals of higher tier. Please remember your comments when you have to interview with someone like me for your first job out of college.

To everyone else: The Citadel's actions against the Princeton band yesterday were a direct result of their blatant disrespect of OUR school and OUR traditions. Any group of young men and women that come on The Citadel campus, need to know where they are walking. The Citadel has produced some of the greatest officers in the history of the United States Armed forces. As a result, the Campus has been arranged and decorated with constant reminders their services and sacrifices. The "Avenue of Remembrance" that was the scene of Princeton's ATTEMPTED pre-game march through, is held very sacred at The Citadel. The knobs (freshman cadets) are required to walk in the gutters along the Avenue for the duration of their knob year as a sign of respect to the plaques cemented into the ground on the opposite side of the street. The trees that are planted are planted in honor of every armed conflict that The Citadel has lost an officer in. If Princeton had put some of their "intellect" and energy towards learning about the national significance of the place where they were coming, instead of figuring out the different ways in which to dry-hump each other at halftime, maybe they would have thought twice before risking their safety in a blatant disrespect to every member of the Corps.

Thankfully, the unorganized, infant madness that comprised the band was physically stopped before their presence was allowed to further pollute The Citadel campus. The Chapel (which has a plaque listing every member of the Citadel alumni who have died in battle) was only a few hundred yards from where they were stopped. The latest alumni death, occurring within the past few years, was an individual that many current cadets still remember. Excuse me if we thought it okay to protect the solemn grounds that pay respect to our fallen comrades.

Posted by citadel_cadet on September 21, 2008 at 5:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Lastly, I would like to agree with the several individuals above who stated that there should be communication between the The Citadel's administrative offices and Princeton University. I would like to personally let the band know that the Corps will be anxiously awaiting their return for an encore performance. Just think of the possibilities now that the Corps of Cadets is fully prepared to "deal" with your antics. I can't think of 2200 other men and women who would rather get the chance to meet them again. I do not know when I have been more proud of my institution that yesterday morning.

A proud cadet

Posted by elcid81 on September 21, 2008 at 5:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOS you are a coward who hides behind a screen. I challenge you to speak that kind of thing in person to any of my classmates or brothers or sisters in uniform. The next opportunity that I am home will be on 11 Oct for the Elon game, I will wear my uniform for you, so you can find me. I'll stand proudly in front of the Alumni center one hour before the game. I challenge you to remove the flag that I wear proudly on my shoulder. The flag that signifies the freedom that you take for granted. If you are successful in removing the flag, be prepared for what happens next. I would invite you and the Princeton band to my installation, but you all would never be allowed entry.

Never Forget

In the summer of 1982, at the request of the Lebanese government, the United States agreed to establish a U.S. Military presence in that country to serve as a peacekeeping force in the conflict between warring Muslim and Christian factions. On March 24, 1983, the 24th Marine Amphibious Unit, stationed at Camp Lejeune, North Carolina, received orders to Beirut, Lebanon in support of that commitment.

Initially, the U.S. Forces, along with French and Italian Forces, provided a measure of stability; however, as diplomatic efforts failed to achieve a basis for a lasting settlement, the Muslim factions came to perceive the Marines as enemies. This led to artillery, mortar, and small arms fires being directed at the Marine Corps positions — with appropriate, measured response being taken against identified targets.

In the early morning of October 23, 1983, the First Battalion, 8th Marines Headquarters building was destroyed by a non-Lebanese, terrorist-driven truck, laden with compressed gas-enhanced explosives. This truck, like many others, had become a familiar sight at the airport and so did not raise any alarm on this morning. The resulting explosion and the collapse of the building killed 241 Marines, Sailors, and Soldiers

Remembering Charles J. Schnorf, First Lieutenant, United States Marine Corps - ElCid 81 and the 240 others

Posted by UrGatorbait on September 21, 2008 at 6 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOSblows..LMAO

When I was active duty, I'd rather be lead by competent staff NCO, prior enlisted officer, major service academy grad, or an ROTC grad. I had a Citadel grad as an officer once. Opinionated, rebellious and gay as a the day is long. He must have been one of the "bad" ones that got through the He-man process. He could think, stand on his own two feet and he despised GWB. Good guy.
The wannabes at the Citadel are too funny. I doubt the Princeton band could get on Camp Lejune and wreck the remembrance. When ya can't deal with them, just stay neanderthal and punch them.

The Citadel president needs to answer for this. elcid your not Gen Rosa and he did let them pass. I guess he's a thinker. That outta make ya think. Damn liberal officers.

Princeton dude, it doesn't matter what you saw, their precious boy cadets don't do a thing wrong. Liberal=thinking, not appreciated here in SC. Thanks for your first hand observations on the event.

Posted by SOSblows on September 21, 2008 at 6:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

good job fighting the Princeton band while real soldiers are fighting over seas. You are protecting a flag on your shoulder while real soldiers are protecting our country. keep up the good work.

Posted by parent on September 21, 2008 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nothing the Princeton band did, nothing, justifies the hate and lack of tolerance
and judgement displayed by the Citadel student body and their leaders, before
during and after the game. This was an insignificant college football game with
your fellow americans - nothing more, nothing less. The Princeton band
meant no ill will. The Citadel students did themselves and their community
a great disservice by their actions.

Posted by bleed_orange on September 21, 2008 at 6:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As a Princetonian, one of the things that I find oddest about all of this is the identification of the Band as a "liberal" group. While officially non-partisan, the Band is certainly no more liberal than most campus groups, and has a fairly strong conservative presence. The Band has been identified for the past few years with the most conservative eating club on campus, and I am personally acquainted with a large contingent of Band members and alumni who identify as politically conservative or libertarian.

It's true that the current president of the band has a mohawk. However, a recent drum major identifies with a Randian philosophy, and one Band member was a strong supporter of Condoleeza Rice as an '08 presidential candidate. The Band, like most Princeton groups, is home to a diverse array of views. Given the antagonistic nature of the philosophically inbred Cadets and the polite, nonconfrontational manner of the Band, perhaps there is something to be said for exposure to other opinions.

Posted by Honest_Abe on September 21, 2008 at 6:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What do Princeton and the Citadel have in common?

Princeton was the site of a great American military victory: when General Washington defeated the British.

The Citadel was also the site of a great American military victory: when General Sherman captured the city of Charleston.

Ring the good old bugle, boys.
- Honest Abe

Posted by TigerHawk310 on September 21, 2008 at 6:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I didn't realize that the Citadel was some sort of foreign territory not subject to American law. At least, that's the impression I get from some of these comments. The Citadel's administration invited the band to march around the campus, as the Princeton band does at pretty much every campus at every away game. Having been duly invited onto their campus, the cadets responded with violence, forcefully blocking the Princetonians' path in all directions. They then physically assaulted weaker Princeton students, in one case, breaking a band member's clarinet. In most places in South Carolina, that would be a crime, and "They was disrespectin' me!" isn't a defense.

Then, at the game, the physical assaults continued. The cadets drowned out the band's halftime show (again, approved by Citadel administration), and in the second half, surrounded the Princeton band as they were in the stands doing nothing offensive. The cadets proceeded to threaten band members and steal parts of band members' uniforms. Police intervention was needed.

In all of this, the band did nothing more than march (well, saunter) and play its instruments. Perhaps its halftime show mocked the South; they mock everyone. The important point is that the Citadel cadets met harmless words with criminal violence. Is that the "military spirit" the Citadel is supposed to teach?

Violence against people for mere "disrespect" isn't what an honorable soldier does. It's what a barbarian does. Fortunately, it seems the Citadel administration understands the difference, even if their students need some lessons.

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 6:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

so the only eye witness says they didn't march through the sacred field, huh. They were confronted by a wild pack of dawgs pissing on their territory...real men.

Cadet- you really think the lowest Princeton grad would be applying for a job under you...come on, really.
Lets face it , you go to a military school you have to pay for ! You get hazed and have to be in bed on time or you do push ups, now that's an edumication I wouldn't pay for.

Posted by Marie123 on September 21, 2008 at 6:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As a member of the Princeton University Band, I'd like to personally thank citadel_cadet:

While we were aware on Saturday afternoon at the game that we had enraged the vast majority of the Citadel, none of us were aware of what, exactly we had done to incite this anger.

We had formal contact with the administration, who had invited us to perform at the game, vetted our show, and invited us to march on their campus. We were NOT aware of the Saturday field day activities until the altercation, nor were we aware of the special significance of the Avenue of Remembrance. Had we known, I'm sure we would have walked somewhere else- we thought it was just a normal thoroughfare, and no one informed us otherwise.

Of course, I can't speak to the behavior of every member of the band, but from where I was standing, I didn't hear anyone trying to mock or bait the cadets we encountered. We avoided the field specifically, assuming that that was what the cadets were concerned about us marching across, though I assume during the chaotic near-brawl that occurred later, it is possible that some of us scrambled in that direction.

So, thank you for explaining what we did to offend - While I disagree that the cadets' response was appropriate, none of us meant any offense to our military, our country, or the Citadel, and I'm sorry if our actions were taken as such.

Posted by Riverside on September 21, 2008 at 6:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm proud of the cadets and the way they defended their pride and turf. Princeton got what they deserved.

Posted by SOSblows on September 21, 2008 at 7:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

i apologize to Princeton, The Citadel in no way represents the people of Charleston or the state of South Carolina. The school, their alumni and students are stuck somewhere between the Civil War and reality and refuse to see that their practice are as outdated as fanny packs.

Posted by CitadelGrad on September 21, 2008 at 7:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bleed_orange, your statement that Citadel cadets are philosophically inbred could lead one to believe that you are as ignorant as those who regard all Princetonians as liberals or commie-lib pinkos. Sweeping generalizations are typically a sign of under-developed intellect and/or bigotry. While it is true that military institutions are often more conservative, you will find a very wide spectrum of political and religious views at the Citadel. As a Libertarian and agnostic, I never felt out of place at the Citadel and certainly never saw any attempt to quash the freely expressed opinions of any cadet or faculty member. I wish I could say the same of my days as a graduate student at a putatively tolerant Big Ten university.

To Marie123, thank you for presenting your view of the incident in a public forum. As far as I know, you are the first and only member of the Princeton Band to do so. A similar statement from your band's president might be helpful. There is no question that any damage to persons or property should be regarded as criminal matter and dealt with appropriately. However, every other account I have read indicates that at least some members of the Princeton Band did act provocatively and with the purpose of eliciting a reaction from the cadets. These accounts have come from cadets, Citadel alumni and members of the media.

Posted by k4christ01 on September 21, 2008 at 8:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I did not see what happened on the campus earlier Saturday, but I was at the game. I found the display by the Princeton band at half time to be offensive and inappropriate, especially for the children who were attending the game.

Posted by alfrente_2001 on September 21, 2008 at 8:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks all for the clarification. I think I see what happened here.

Citadel students are trained to defend their turf. When they're in large groups, especially, that turf-defending mantra really resonates (as it has on this message board from several Citadel cadets and alumni). So when the Princeton Band marched across their campus--as it does across the campus of every school they play, and as it did with permission from Citadel admins, and as many college marching bands do before Saturday morning games--the cadets spotted an opportunity to defend their turf. The problem was, they were "defending" it from a threat that didn't exist.

The Princeton Band wasn't there to desecrate anything sacred, but the cadets didn't know that. The Band was going to march (saunter, sashay, whatever) across campus, play a few fight songs, and the usual stuff that bands do. But the hair-trigger cadets blocked their path, thinking it was necessary to protect against the orange-and-black "invasion."

When the Princeton Band tried to run around or through the cadets, again, the cadets didn't know that the Band was just trying to dodge them. They thought it was an assault of some kind, and they responded with the force they were eager to use. This meant, from what I've heard, breaking one Band member's instrument, throwing another into a tree, and trying to steal uniform pieces from several of them.

This is how misunderstandings start. So let's all calm down and realize a few things:

1.) The Princeton Band did NOT march on the Citadel campus with the intention of dishonoring fallen soldiers.

2.) Taunting is a natural part of football and, as long as it remains non-threatening, isn't a problem.

3.) Taunting ceased to be non-threatening when several of the cadets really did threaten Princeton Band members and several of them acted on these threats.

4.) This issue isn't just about liberals versus conservatives or cadets versus people who don't appreciate their sacrifices. It's primarily an issue of bullies versus...well, I hate the word "nerds," so I'll say "academics." You put the polar opposite of Citadel cadets on their campus--the Princeton Band--and suddenly people desperate for an "other" to attack get their perfect target. I've never had any sympathy for bullies.

I'm sure there are good people at the Citadel, lots of them. But let's not mince words. The cadets who attacked the Princeton Band physically crossed the line from name-calling to physical, criminal violence. They're lucky their victims have chosen not to press charges and that the only punishment they're getting is from the school.

I hope the cadets who attacked the Band learn a lot about responsibility before anyone gives them guns.

Posted by wildcat22 on September 21, 2008 at 9:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)

It seems to me that The Citadel is very proud. I also see that Princeton likes to do what they do best, and mach. Every band is different in their own unique way. Some like to have sticks up their asses and others like to lubricate their sticks and put them to better use. If matters were handled a little differently, (not physically) I'm sure the Princeton Band would have removed themselves from the sacred holy ground you hold in the South. It seems as if this whole situation could have been avoided.

As for the half time show:
-Scatter Bands everywhere do shows like that. It's not to offend anyone. As long as the people on the field are having a good time, that's all that really matters.

Posted by Mankee on September 21, 2008 at 10:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

My this sort of thing can bring out the worst and best in people; especially with blogging! I have a son at the Citadel and have had many family members attend ivy league schools (though not specifically Princeton). I understand the tendencies of both kinds of schools, but most importantly it should be made clear that all kinds of people attend all kinds of schools. Some things got out of hand this weekend and some people behaved badly. Some people lost sense of what was tasteful and others became hot headed about it. Get over it! This age group (traditional college age) tends to get hot headed about just about anything. It's part of the imaturity of the age. Everything's in black and white; no real grey area. (and we all know life is FULL of grey areas) If everyone had just been a little more mature and taken a deep breath before speaking or acting out, then things might not have gotten out of hand.
But the same can be said of some of the people in this blog! Lighten up! Stuff happens! Don't get so "I'm right - you're wrong" about it. Unless you were there you have no real idea, and even if you were there you probably only saw a small portion of what was going on. Everyone is to blame and I hope a lesson or two was learned; by both parties. Keep your personal feelings about the military and the liberals to yourselves. There's no room in this for such anger and hateful words. You're taking this too far. Thank God you're not sitting in front of each other!
I've never seen a "Scatter Band" but I can't imagine a half-time show for all ages that includes humping each other and stabbing a Santa. Sounds pretty R rated to me, but then again I haven't experienced this before.
Yes, the Citadel cadets tend to be a proud group. But that's the way it is on every military campus I've ever visited. And most people are aware of this and glean from it what they appreciate and forget the rest. It's what it is. Coming from the Midwest (Mankee=Midwest Yankee), I read with some amusement the comments made from Southerners and North Easterners. I'd say both sides suffer from a slightly inflated sense of worth and need to relax a little. Let's learn from it and quit getting your panties all in a bunch!

Posted by methylorangeowl on September 21, 2008 at 10:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As a former member of a scatter band, I can understand completely what happened, from both perspectives.

Scatter bands make their reputations by poking fun at the "sacred cows" of their opponents. However, every school has some sacred institutions and traditions that are too important to make fun of. Military schools have more than most. Despite authorization from the athletic department, Princeton should have known that ANY actions on their part, intentional or not, could be met with offense. That's true of any show at any school, and particularly true here.

However, it is never acceptable to take anger at an institution or organization out on an individual. The booing over the Princeton show (while rude) was warranted. The cadets didn't like the show or the band, so they booed. Harassing a member of the band on her way to the restroom is inappropriate. That member of the Princeton band is only a college student, just like the cadet is. She did not write the show herself, and is not personally responsible for the insult done.

I understand that it's impossible to prevent angry fans from clashing in the stands. Princeton should have done more research on the campus and paraded somewhere that was not hallowed ground. But at the same time, I know how it feels to be vastly outnumbered in a very hostile situation, and afraid you might get injured at a football game.

And that's what it boils down to-- this was a football game. Princeton should apologize for a show and parade in questionable taste, and the Citadel should apologize for treating the band with such aggression. As an organizational conflict, not a personal one, the insult should be handled at an organizational level between the Citadel Athletics Department and the Princeton Band administration.

Posted by alfrente_2001 on September 21, 2008 at 10:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with almost everything you said, methylorangeowl, especially the fact that it's just a football game and everyone needs to chill.

The only thing I disagree with regards Princeton's apology. The thing is, the Princeton Band submitted their show in its entirety to the administration at the Citadel, and it was approved. So if it was indeed inappropriate, the onus is on the administrators at the Citadel, not on the Princeton Band.

Evidently the Citadel administrators misjudged the Band's impact--and I don't blame them. No one expected this kind of behavior in response to something as inconsequential as forty people dressed in plaid playing instruments. But why should the Princeton Band apologize for the Citadel administrators' misjudgment?

(I do agree that the Band should apologize for not having known that they tread on sacred ground. In their defense, not one of them had set foot on campus prior to that morning, but they could have indeed done more research. This, however, is a teeny apology compared to the one the cadets owe the Band for physical attacks, destruction of property, and harrassment. The Band's transgression was an accident, and throwing a guy into a tree could not have been.)

Posted by magoo on September 21, 2008 at 11 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The Citadel Admin should have explained the rules to this band as to what is or isnt allowed on the sacred campus, but look on the bright side at least the band walked in the gutters on the AVE of Rememberance like the knobs do . Anyway it was a great performance by the Great Princeton Band and would have been greater if the loud mouthed wannebe soldiers of the future(Citadel Cadets) would have shown respect to the band while they performed at half time.The Cadets must not have gotton their naps Sat aternoon or milk or cookies after their naps and were just tired.Thats why the acted the way the did.

Posted by HighDef on September 21, 2008 at 11:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

turns out the angry mob that followed the female band member was just trying to court the young lady...southern hospitality I guess ! Come on people, it is black and white here. This routine is performed everywhere else but b/c the Citadel is a military institution you can't march and sing. Are the memorials they march in front of up north less meaningfull ? This story is silly but expected from Ken Burgar, he could have written about the evil euro's pumping their fist's in our backyard during the Ryder Cup.

Posted by ImplantedYankee on September 21, 2008 at 11:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

For those of you who still insist that the band members did nothing wrong, consider this:

In nearly the two decades I've been watching Citadel sporting events, The Citadel has hosted many teams. Each year there are several involving bitter rivalries, including College of Charleston (not football, however), Furman, and especially VMI. Many times I have observed the visiting school's band play. When Citadel hosted VMI, not only did their band perform, but their entire corps of cadets was hosted as guests in the barracks. At no time did any of these teams encounter the same treatment. What do you suppose was the difference?

The insults against the school, the military, this country, and even women, came in loud and clear over the PA system during the routine despite the corps' best efforts to drown it out.

As for those uninvolved who just used this as an opportunity to express that chip on your shoulder regarding The Citadel, none of your remarks merit an individual response. In my experience, those who speak ill of the ring invariably possess two distinct traits: one they don't understand it, and two, they don't have what it takes to earn one. Their shortcomings in mind, body, or constitution (often a combination of the three) will forever separate them from those who have endured, and it's not a gulf that can be bridged by understanding.

Posted by alfrente_2001 on September 22, 2008 at 12:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Okay, but none of the schools you mention--Charleston, Furman, or VMI--have scramble bands. They have marching bands. It's a completely different thing. You guys probably hadn't seen a scramble band before. (Before I went to college, neither had I.) Scramble bands are a little weird to get used to, and I think we can all agree that the cadets couldn't get used to a scramble band in one afternoon.

Put simply: They saw something new and different when they expected something else. And they didn't like it.

Just because the Princeton Band did something DIFFERENT doesn't mean they did something WRONG.

Posted by scar988 on September 22, 2008 at 8:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

As a junior cadet at the Citadel, who was near the band when they attacked, they did not just charge at us. They were swinging their instruments trying to attack us, this is BS about them dodging us. We defended ourselves. One of them had my classmate in a headlock and I punched him in the face. Am I proud of that? not really. but they need to not try and attack people. I thought people from Princeton were smarter than that. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that no one marches on a military school campus except for cadets from that school, invited groups, and the actual military. But when they come in, mock us on the avenue, and then charge at us swinging their instruments, how else are we supposed to respond. We were just protecting ourselves, especially since they were the ones who provoked us and attacked us. If anything, the Alpha knob who destroyed the clarinet deserves a medal, and the band deserved everything it got, especially that little girl crying over being harrassed. I thought that band would have a much thicker skin if they were known for doing stupid things like that.

Posted by scar988 on September 22, 2008 at 8:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

To marie,
It's cool, we just don't like having instruments swung at us. We also were never warned by the administration anything was happening. had our admin actually told us something, we would have been a bit more cordial, but they didn't. So we took offense to the entire situation, because no one even thinks that we take pride in our entire campus, the fact is you wre going down "The avenue of rememberance." Which is the one place on campus we hold more sacred than the parade deck or the barracks. Then again, our administration doesn't have the best communications with everyone. Let's just say that neither side wants to be attacked, and the fact of the matter is y'all swung instruments at us.

Posted by Aco on September 22, 2008 at 9:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

As for being there, and for seeing what happened because i was in the front, I cant Tell you, that the Band tried to go onto the parade deck, where the whole corps was. When they could go down that way, they went down the Avenue of Remembrance, might be the most sacred place on campus. We formed a wall, that was it. They scrambled towards us and we defended ourselves accordingly, as for we don't like clarinets being swung in our faces. When people come onto the campus that pretty much started the civil war, with a confederate flag crossed out, thats sparks something. No doubt both sides are to blame. Before you go pointing fingers listen to the people who were there.

Posted by saltersf1 on September 22, 2008 at 9:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

All this blame game bs needs to stop. Both parties are as equally responsible and both should be embarrassed. For two well respected educational institutions to act so immaturely is ridiculous. All of you that keep encouraging or defending either party are just as immature. Saturday was just plane embarrassing. As a Citadel grad I understand the significance the Avenue of Remembrance. It is a special location on campus, hell most of the campus has some sort of historical significance. The band should have NEVER marched onto that part of campus especially during the middle field day. It was most defiantly a disrespectful act, but a fight should have never ensued. Princeton band members crossed the line, but the corps should act like gentlemen no matter what the circumstances. I am a big Citadel football supporter, there are always other tasteful ways to get pumped up and still enjoy the game. I know that at first glance it was a funny hurrah story and a reason for some of us to think "way to go boys for defending our turf", but ultimately it makes others perceive the corps as a bunch of meathead uncontrollable hoodlums. I know that they are not. There can be bad egg in every bunch. I hope Cadets continue to actively support the football teams success just without all the booing and violent behavior. Let the football team shut them up. Go Dogs.

Posted by littleone on September 22, 2008 at 10:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I cannot believe how everyone is standing on their little soap box and acting like they would never ever get caught up in something so immature. I'm sure you all have the morals and ethics and self-control of the Pope.

Screw that. I am the wife of a Citadel grad, and I can assure you that the Citadel campus is the safest place to be in Charleston. There is not another place in that city where you can walk down the sidewalk and feel that safe and protected. Those cadets knew they could get in big trouble for causing a scene on campus or at the football game, but they still felt it was more important to defend who they are.

Everyone likes to give The Citadel and it's cadets a hard time, saying they are out-dated and immature, blah blah blah. My opinion??? If you didn't go there, you don't get to judge. You have no clue what goes on there--NONE. If a Citadel grad wants to write on here and say the cadets were wrong and should have done things differently, that grad has the right to because he or she has been in those shoes! Even I don't feel I can say anything and I was there almost every weekend for 4 years, and I saw first hand what my husband and his friends went through. But I still didn't eat, sleep, and breathe there everyday so I am keeping my mouth SHUT.

So don't freaking act like you would have done something different, because you don't know! They weren't just defending their campus--people give them crap every single day just for choosing to go to The Citadel. Yankees, C of C frat boys, and every drunk driving down King St. who sees a uniform feels like it's their God-given right to tell those cadets what they think about them and their school. And for what?? Because you've met one cadet one time and they were kind of a jerk?? Maybe it's cause they haven't slept in four years you idiot. Saying every cadet is either macho or gay is like saying that every person that goes to Clemson is a dumb redneck farmer. It's no wonder they finally snapped and decided to do something about it.

So screw you Princeton, you are lucky you got out of Charleston with all your teeth still in your head.

Posted by Tulane75 on September 22, 2008 at 10:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This controversy concerns me for a number of reasons. Campus police aside, do the cadets or any other group have police powers on the Citadel campus?

My understanding is that:
1-This is not a military base, where upon entering, you are subject to search
2- The public may come onto campus at any time, with the exception of certain night hours when the campus is closed.

I have been going onto the Citadel campus for longer than I can remember, primarily for weddings, funerals sporting events or nothing in particular. I don't know which is the Avenue of Rememberance, but I have pretty much walked wherever necessary to get to my destination on the straightest line.

Once again, campus police aside, would I have to do something (or not) upon instruction from a cadet? Back to the question above, what special powers to enforce the law, or in this case defend the old south and Citadel traditions, do the cadets have? For example, what if an individual came on campus wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt. Would that be illegal on the Citadel campus even though it it legal at Hampton Park? Of course it would be legal, but what special powers to the cadets have to deal with this person to whose clothing they may object?

Here you have a Princeton Band with permission to come on campus. Was it something they said? something they played? Who gets to decide what is "offensive" on the Citadel campus? The campus police deal with the law, but who deals with things that are LEGAL, but contrary to the tastes or opinions of the cadet corp? It sound to me like a recipe for exactly what happened this past weekend.

Posted by littleone on September 22, 2008 at 11:13 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If a cadet on guard told you that a road was closed, or a sidewalk was being used for something and you couldn't use it then it's my understanding that you have to follow those rules. If you don't want to, the cadet can't physically restrain you but you will be approached by either a campus police officer or an officer. The companies on guard are essentially an extension of the administration.

I have never never ever ever heard of someone being told they can't go somewhere or do something, with the exception of roads being closed for Parents Weekend and Homecoming, and that was simply because of the parking lots being full and people were walking in the roads. I think The Citadel has always expected a high standard of behavior for it's guest, and most guests use common sense. The cadets have always been on their best behavior when out and about on campus--I would assume that most of the ugly stuff goes on in the barracks.

Even though what the band did wasn't illegal, it was obviously stupid. Can you blame a bunch of college students for getting caught up in something? Like fights have never broken out at football games before, like benches have never been cleared in baseball and basketball games? It's not right, but it happened, and it doesn't look like anyone was planning on it turning into a fight except for Princeton.

Posted by SOSblows on September 22, 2008 at 11:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Citadel is the safest place in charleston???? You must not be taking the very high number of sexual assualts on female cadets into consideration. Although thats not surprising since The Citadel has never consider females as equals. The Citadel is full of young men with attitudes who have a sense of power because they go to a pretend military school.

West Point = Real military school
Citadel = Fake military school

Posted by HighDef on September 22, 2008 at 11:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

thrusting clarinets,crossed out confederate flag and band members zig zagging around the blockade...eww wee crazy.

One Cadet says the girl got what she deserved...wow well said son ! Sounds like you've had to use that defense before.
LITTLEONE-When I was confronted by this band i kept my mouth shut and went out and beat their asses on the scoreboard (like the real cadets did) and laughed later, it's what real men do !

Posted by PUFootBaller on September 22, 2008 at 1:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Princeton athletes have always been ashamed of the band and dearly wish they would not attend sporting events. They should save their antics for alumni events if they believe Princetonians actually enjoy their "show."

Even though the majority of the country disagrees with Bush's Iraq fiasco, most of us certainly support our troops and the sacrifices of those young men and women in uniform, and those currently training to serve. We simply want our troops brought home safely from Iraq, or redeployed to Afganistan where the real fight is. Hopefully President Obama will be able to make this a reality and ensure the $2 trillion dollars the Iraq fiasco will ultimately cost the American taxpayers can be of some benefit to future generations.

As a Princetonian I would like to apologize to the members of the Citadel community for what I can assume (based on past experience) were the insensitive and offensive actions of the Princeton band. Most Princetonians are as offended by the band as those attending the Citadel game must have been, and to denigrate a sacred memorial walk is inexcusable.

Posted by Riverside on September 22, 2008 at 1:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOS, why don't you go there for 4 years and then find out how "fake" it is? THEN, you can give your opinion on if it is, or is not, a real military school.

Posted by SOSblows on September 22, 2008 at 2:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Straight from The Citadel webpage:

"While Citadel Cadets are not obligated to enter the military, about a third of each graduating class accepts a military commission"

Question: If The Citadel is a real military school (like West Point), why are the students not required to enter service?

I have no problem with what The Citadel does as a school, but stop calling it a military school. I find that very disrepectful to actual soldiers who fight for our country.

Posted by saltersf1 on September 22, 2008 at 2:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOS.. West Point, the Naval Academy, and all the service academies have the cadets "play soldier" while they get an education in a military environment. When they graduate they are pinned as 2nd Lieutenant officers or an equivalent rank depending which service they go in to. It is at that point that things become "real". The Citadel has the same model 4 class system as any other service academy. The main difference between the academies and the Citadel is that the Citadel is not a federal academy, its a state school. So not all of its graduates are required to go in the military, even though every Citadel Graduate is given the choice to take a commission or not. The officers that do graduate from the Citadel are just as qualified and choose to bleed the same blood/sacrifice for our country so save me this "fake" bs. The Citadel graduates who have CHOSEN to go in to the military are known to be the best of the best. So before you go barking up a tree you know nothing about realize that there are many great Americans who are servicing our country that have graduated from great institutions like West Point, The Naval Academy, The Air Force Academy, and even the Citadel, VMI, Norwich, Texas A&M, etc. SOS you honestly have no idea what you are talking about!

Posted by SOSblows on September 22, 2008 at 2:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Apparently i'm not making my point clear enough. Here is a fact straight off West Point's webpage:

"Upon graduation, cadets are awarded Bachelor of Science degrees and commissions in the U.S. Army. They serve on active duty for a minimum of five years."

Read that last sentence as many times as you need to.

Posted by CitadelGrad on September 22, 2008 at 3:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOSblows, I'm a Citadel graduate and served on active duty for 7 years, including Desert Shield/Desert Storm. Am I a pretend soldier?

Posted by saltersf1 on September 22, 2008 at 3:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Any individual that accepts a commission is required to serve active duty, the time served has no bearing on what college you graduated from. So like I said before you still have no idea what you are talking about. Do you have anymore brainbusters num-nuts?

Posted by scar988 on September 22, 2008 at 3:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOS, there are very few sexual assaults on campus that are actually sexual assaults. And we don't have to take a commision to be considered a real military school. the fact of the matter is only 2 things make up a military school:
A) a Corps of cadets
B) the OPTION to commission

and HighDef,
you're saying that Princeton Zig-Zaged arounds? you weren't there! They charged right at us and attempted to attack us. so you sir, are an ignorant tool who thinks he knows everything, but as an actual cadet, who was on the front line of this "encounter" they attacked us. and we defended our brothers.

Posted by CitadelGrad on September 22, 2008 at 3:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

scar988, perhaps if you hadn't surrounded them and threatened them with violence, they wouldn't have needed to "attack" you. What would you have done if you were one of 40 who was surrounded by a few hundred?

I don't want to read anymore of this nonsense about how they were desecrating the Avenue of Remembrance. They were not aware of the significance of it and they had explicit permission from the Citadel to do what they were doing.

As for any taunts that they may have directed toward the cadets -- Big Deal. Get over it. I have seen cadets many times mercilessly taunt others with no expectation that it would result in a violent confrontation.

If you cadets were so offended by the Princeton Band's march-through and if they were acting so aggressively toward you cadets, why didn't any of the cadet leadership approach the Princeton Band to diffuse the situation or give them some cautionary advice? That is what leaders do, right? The Citadel is a leadership laboratory, right?

I am in no way condoning the actions of the Princeton Band, but the cadets should have taken the higher road. If you can't exercise self-control or deal with problems rationally, why the hell are you at the Citadel? If you want to be a dumbass redneck thug, go to Georgia Southern. We don't need you among the ranks of Citadel alumni and we sure as hell don't need you in the Armed Forces of the United States.

The truth is that there is plenty of blame to go around for this incident. The point is, I do not ever want to see the Citadel to be in a position to accept blame. I want the Citadel to be above reproach. If you aren't willing to accept that responsibility, then please leave my alma mater now.

Posted by mrcitadel2008 on September 22, 2008 at 3:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You let one fat, opinionated, rebellious female into our school and everything goes to hell. I too will not be making any fiduciary contributions to the Citadel, but it is not because of the behavior exhibited by the Cadets this weekend.

You can call me ignorant, but that doesn't change the way I feel about my school or my classmates. If it's humor that the Princeton band was looking for I invite them to go see a comedy show. But This is the Citadel, we produce soldiers, not comedians. To believe that the result of what transpired Saturday would have been any different is to imagine a world much different than the one we live in. To all of you saying Princeton's Band of Ivy League misfits did not deserve such treatment I say "Grow a pair".

I will become highly upset with my institution if I learn ANY Cadets were reprimanded for their defensive behavior. Keep fighting Dogs! If you don't who will? Certainly not the Princeton Band. If I were Rosa, I would mail a check to the Princeton Band for the cost of the broken butt trumpet that the 18 year old Freshman took away from that grown man and broke over his leg. To me that would be money well spent defending what few traditions and honor we have left. I would be sure to wipe my rear-end with it first though.

In conclusion its actually a lot more simple than any Honors Calculus formula that a Princeton student had to learn during their tenure their. If you play with fire you get burned, especially my fire that has been burning for 163 years.

And You, Sosblows. Why don't you take a stroll through campus today holding up a sign with your clever pen-name and selections from your comment sections on this piece. I doubt highly that one of those "fake" Military students will allow you to get halfway across the parade deck before you are "corrected". I would love to sit down with a few of you on here and have a civilized debate on who was right and wrong here, but as for SOSblows, I think you should get your facts straight before you come sit at my table. I will make you look extremely ignorant if you have not done your homework.
It's sad you don't have pride in anything like we do. Just another product of a sheltered, politically correct childhood is my guess. Leave the fighting for the real men and go comment on something you know something about you elitist sympathizing pie.

The Citadel, "The Last of the Knights"-Ronald Reagan

Posted by blueline on September 22, 2008 at 3:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I am unsure why my fellow alumni of The Citadel would deign to discuss this issue with a bunch of people on a newspaper message board.

Posted by jwebster80 on September 22, 2008 at 3:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Three huge cheers for The Citadel!

How in the world did that band think they would get away with going BEHIND those gates and mocking those cadets?

Talk to anyone in the Southern Conference and ask if they ever felt disprected by the school or their cadets?...the answer would be no.

Perfect example of N.E. liberal elites acting out exactly who they are.

I am glad however no one got punched, though whoever was response for bringing the band on campus DURING organized cadet physical activities and mimicking them should have to put that on the Ivy League resume'.

Let's see how Citadel cadets and alum behave at the game in NJ next year,...or,...has PU already cancelled and called their lawyers.

Man, more "flyover" politics,...except in the heavily patriotic south.

CITADEL 34, P.U. 24......good job bulldogs

Posted by SOSblows on September 22, 2008 at 4:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Citadelgrad - But you CHOOSE to serve, the Citadel did not require you to serve. The Army requires a tour of duty. Anyone that serves is a real soldier, has 100% of my respect and is a better person than me.

saltersf1 - You made my point for me. Citadel cadets have the option to serve, which many of them don't. Army cadets don't have that option. Thats what makes West Point legit.

You guys are trying to convince yourselves that you're part of the United States Military, which you are not.

Keep fighting Ivy League bands tough guys.

Posted by ElCid09 on September 22, 2008 at 4:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Posted by SOSblows on September 22, 2008 at 11:20 a.m.

"Citadel is the safest place in charleston???? You must not be taking the very high number of sexual assualts on female cadets into consideration."

However, most of the assaults on female cadets occur off-campus and include alcohol (not that that is any kind of excuse). Not to mention that it isn't only female cadets who are sexually assaulted. Also, take a good look at the numbers from that survey and take a look at the national average for sexual assaults on or off campus; our numbers are lower.

I am a cadet who was at the Field Day but was on the other side of the field and chose not to join in the rushing of the band. From where I was, I couldn't see what the band was actually doing except that they had marched onto campus and were moving up the Avenue. I do know that once the band re-grouped, the Tac officers escorted the band off campus. However, I am extremely embarassed by the corps' reaction to the band at half-time. That they wouldn't even give the band a chance and began booing before they even took the field was immature. A large problem is that Citadel cadets generally don't know how marching bands work; the only cadets who were in band in high school are in band now and most of the cadets don't respect the band. Even had Gen Rosa warned us that the Princeton band would be marching on our campus and acting out on the field, I'm not sure it would have changed anything because most of the cadets wouldn't have understood any of it anyway.

Posted by CitadelGrad on September 22, 2008 at 4:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOSblows, West Point cadets have the option of leaving West Point any time prior to the first day of classes during their junior year without incurring a military service obligation. Citadel cadets must sign a military contract at the beginning of their junior year if they wish to be commissioned. Those that do not sign may continue their Citadel education and graduate at the end of 4 years, but must continue enrollment in ROTC classes until they graduate.

The Citadel, like VMI and a handful of other schools is classified by the Department of Defense as an Essential Military College. We must meet certain criteria identified by the Department of Defense to maintain that designation. The Citadel is not a military college because we say it is. It is a military college because the Department of Defense says it is.

While the Citadel and VMI are not federal service academies, we are military schools that must meet the standards of a military college as defined by the Department of Defense.

You really do need to get your facts straight.

Posted by Marianne0558 on September 22, 2008 at 4:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm wondering the same thing, blueline.
Don't you have better and more noble things to do?

By the way, I see the lot of you jogging up and down Brittlebank park every day. Thank you for giving me something nice to look at while I take my breaks!!!!!

Posted by CitadelMan on September 22, 2008 at 4:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm a junior cadet at The Citadel and was present, though not physically involved in Saturday’s incident. With all the trash being slung on both sides I felt like I had to offer my $0.02. There’s been enough said about the incident, so I’ll just say that students with an average SAT score of 1500+ should’ve had more brains than to “march” onto campus in the manner they did. I’m just going to stand up for my school in the face of slander by a certain ignorant individual…

In case you didn't notice, we are The Citadel, the MILITARY College of South Carolina (and yes, I'll be taking a commission next May). The reason we aren't required to enter the military is because we are not a federal academy. If need be, every one of us could be called up as South Carolina Militia. Regardless of the fact that it would likely never happen, the obligation is there. I've spent the last two years of my life, going on three, living a Spartan lifestyle that I doubt you could handle. The nine months of my knob year I guarantee were harder than anything you've ever done in your life. You talk a lot as if you understand what goes on here, but honestly you're not fooling anyone. You can try and slander us with accusations of rampant homosexuality and abuse but then again, you've never spent a single night behind the gates, so you have no credibility. And FYI: reading a news release that's as false as the garbage that's come out of your mouth does not make you an expert.

Before you try and say that my institution has served the United States with any less dedication than West Point, I'll leave you with this. I've heard Echo Taps played four times during my time as a cadet. I doubt you know what that is, but go ahead and look it up- maybe you'll find some respect along with it. The last thing I've heard West Point and Service used in the same sentence was when a USMA alum who was recruited into the NFL was whining over being called up to active duty in lieu of playing football because his nation needed him. A lot of commitment they instill up there... Not to mention, most academy grads do their four years and get out. All the flag officers I've ever met have been ROTC grads. Speaking of flag officers, we've produced 129.

So kindly shut your mouth and leave us to our business of forging boys into men who will either end up fighting for you, or be your boss someday. Because quite frankly, we’re rather good at it.

-Citadel Class of 2010

Posted by Marianne0558 on September 22, 2008 at 4:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

...You all got me looking forward to the scenic views tomorrow! Thanks!!!!!!! hahahahaha

Posted by mrcitadel2008 on September 22, 2008 at 4:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

CitadelMan,
Well said my friend...I look forward to you joining the Long Gray Line next year. They have no idea what they are talking about

Posted by chagrin on September 22, 2008 at 5:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I see the comments have thoroughly beat the issue to death, but one more piece can't hurt:

I would think that the cadets at the Citadel would have a little tougher skin and a little more discipline than this. I saw the Princeton Band perform once (not at Citadel) and they were funny, clever, and looked to be enjoying themselves.

The author, and many commenters seem to think that harassing the band was a brave and noble thing to do. Would you also say that during a circus,
the clown should be beaten for squirting water on someone in the audience? Furthermore, do the officers at the Citadel instill so little discipline in their cadets that even the antics of an obviously comical musical group can disrupt years of military training?

From other news sources on the internet, I found out that the campus march was approved by the campus authorities, the cadets physically
barred the band members from continuing after the parade field and that they had to be escorted by officers to keep the cadets at bay.

Is this what we expect from the future officers of our military? Cruelty and blind devotion to a cause without knowing why they are defending it?

As someone from a military family, I certainly do not expect that because I have too much respect for the men and women that wear the uniform of our armed forces.

Posted by citadelblah on September 22, 2008 at 5:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The Citadel acts like they have some corner on tradition. Princeton has ten times the tradition that The Citadel does. Princeton has and continues to have a longer tradition of serving the country than The Citadel has or will ever have.

Posted by theballsiam on September 22, 2008 at 5:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Princeton is full of condescending, arrogant retards. I'm not surprised they're crying foul over almost getting their nerdy, girly asses kicked for blatantly disrespecting the Citadel and their traditions. Just stay up in New Jersey with all the sleazy meatball people I've met from there and you won't have to worry about getting beat down.

Posted by dude on September 22, 2008 at 6:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

sounds like everyone involved needs to straighten up, lighten up and grow up

Posted by drei23 on September 22, 2008 at 7:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Chagrin neatly exposes the 'I'll physically attack you if I don't like what you say "logic"?
As for the rest of you Citadel folk: all this talk of Northerners, Liberals, intellectuals, and your related ideas of insults... : all these appeals to abuse as a just response to jokes you don't like - - where is your appeal to Thomas Paine? Jefferson? Madison? Washington? Oh, that's right, why bring up Southerns with intellect, self-control, new(liberal? yikes!) ideas? No, no, please let's all forget them and go back to waving our Troglodyte clubs.

Posted by elcid11 on September 22, 2008 at 8 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Posted by SOSblows on September 22, 2008 at 11:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Citadel is the safest place in charleston???? You must not be taking the very high number of sexual assualts on female cadets into consideration. Although thats not surprising since The Citadel has never consider females as equals. The Citadel is full of young men with attitudes who have a sense of power because they go to a pretend military school.

West Point = Real military school
Citadel = Fake military school

My response to this -

Are you kidding me? I am a female cadet at The Citadel. Sexual assualt? I have never been sexually assualted! I don't know anyone who has been sexually assualted at The Citadel. This goes along with what littleone said. If you haven't gone to school here, you dont know a thing, so keep your mouth shut! Of course people are going to say what they want to and no one can change that, but all I can do is stand up for the truth! This is a safe campus!

Also,the avenue of remeberence is very important, especially since General Mark Clark is burried there! I understand that the band didn't know these things. I am upset with the administration for not considering this. I am, however, proud of my school. This whole thing is a big misunderstanding. It is going to be looked at from all kinds of perspectives. We just have to accept that no one is going to come to an agreement. I have my views and you have your views. I respect that, because I do not have the power to change your's.

Posted by JoanneH on September 22, 2008 at 9:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I have read almost 100 comments on here. I see a lot of posturing as well as many valid points.

What I perceive is that the Citadel powers-that-be approved a script to be used by the Princeton band. Obviously there were reasons for the band to have to submit a script for approval. As a former band member myself and the parent of a former band member, I have never known of a legitimate band to have to submit its script for approval.

Even after reading what I am sure the approvers knew would be objectionable material, permission was granted to give the band the right to express themselves. After all, this is a right that is protected now and continues to be protected by brave members of our military as they fight for our interests all over the world.

And the Princeton band took the opportunity to try to test the limits of the generosity of the Citadel?

Shame.

Now, I don't condone violence, but I do condone people standing up for their principles. It's obvious that Princeton expects to be granted far more leeway than they deserve.

Posted by flightyrn on September 22, 2008 at 9:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

As the parent of a cadet- I stand proud. Citadel as my cadet states, "It is not easy, it is tough." Maybe things got out of had, but it seems everyone has an opinion. My questions are: Where you there, Are you a cadet?
It is a terrible thing when people don't think about other people, their value and what they hold dear to their hearts. Marie123 said in her response that the Princeton Band did not know the significance of the "Avenue of Remeberance".
The Citadel is steeped in tradition. Those that decide to attend and stay are taught values. The most important being that it takes teamwork to succeed.
Whether the intention was dishonor, the perception was dishonor.
Last comments--
GO DOGS!!!!
Princeton- you really need to do your homework and think of others.
We "Southerners" are steeped in tradition and values.
oh and to fromoff- from what I have read and heard ( I have much inside info) - speaking as a mother- I would not have stayed at a "show" with such vulgarity with my children (19 & 21) much less an 8 & 10 year old.

Posted by Aco on September 22, 2008 at 9:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SOSblows, why do you even type anything.... you truly have no idea what you are talking about. Can you tell me how long the 4th class system lasts for USMA? I think, if im not mistaken, half a year. We have to do it for 9 months... we get recognized right before finals. It seems to me, that we live under more military standards than West Point does, but i have only hear stories about West Point. You are truly showing ignorance to the topic.

Posted by HighDef on September 22, 2008 at 9:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)

it would be ridonkulous if any action is taken against any of these combatant's.For all the men and women serving America in the armed forces or through projects like Teach For America,Citadel or Princeton grads, your courage and bravery is forever this country's greatest weapon, and America is eternally indebted for your sacrifice.

Posted by CitadelMan on September 22, 2008 at 10:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"The Citadel acts like they have some corner on tradition. Princeton has ten times the tradition that The Citadel does. Princeton has and continues to have a longer tradition of serving the country than The Citadel has or will ever have."

You're joking, right? Well, burden of proof is on you, have at it.

Posted by CitadelOoorahh on September 22, 2008 at 11:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ha, I just waisted my whole ESP reading this crap. It was pretty intertaning though, watching over 600 shaved heads run at a bunch of bandgeeks all at the same time. Maybe we should put up another Battle Streamer:September 2008, Battle of Princeton

Posted by mattpage4 on September 23, 2008 at 12:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

All of you people who say Princeton is at fault, you must be stupid. Female members were spit on, and one male was tackled. So you approve of horomone driven idiots spitting on women? If the school approved of the march, why do you think Princeton got what they deserved if the school said they could march through that part? If the school knew it was going to make cadets go crazy do you think they would have approved of it, i don't think so. If the school reprimanded and disciplined some of the cadets why do you think it is okay?

"During the game itself, somewhere between 50 and 70 cadets circled the band in plain sight of an Army captain and Marine Corps Lieutenant Colonel," Dan Jaffe '10 said in an e-mail. "When ordered back to their
seats by [higher ranking officers] they were slow to obey."

Jaffe, who has trained in the Marine Corps, said he found the behavior of the cadets "astounding." He added that he thought the fact that the cadets "lacked the discipline to maintain proper military bearing should, at the very least, make their superiors question the wisdom of awarding them commissions in the United States Armed Forces."

And this guy is astounded at these idiots that could one day fight for our country, I am disappointed really. So if you approve of spitting on women and physical abuse for students that are supporting their football team, then you go ahead and be a dumbass. I can understand the cadets blocking off the entrance, but to go as far as spitting on women and physical abuse is just ridiculous, stay in school people.

Posted by alfrente96 on September 23, 2008 at 2:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Let's get this straight. The Princeton band is guilty of exactly three things:

1) Not making sure that members were on their most conservative behavior. When appearing on TV or at high-profile events, the band usually asks members to remove non-conforming buttons, silly decorations, and some of the dumber "trash" instruments. This would have been one of those times, but apparently the band was not on strict dress code. From the multiple mentions above and elsewhere, it seems that one band member had an anti-dixie decal - anything like this was bound to provoke. I wasn't there but I'm assuming the whole stabbing-Santa thing was probably a trash instrument being played with a drumstick?

2) When confronted with the wall of cadets, the drum major misread the situation and blew the whistle for a scramble around the wall. Probably thought nothing would result, but the clearly the cadets were spoiling for a fight. Oops.

3) Not being funny. Had the halftime show been wittier, it would have been a little easier for people to understand this was satire. Many seem to have missed that and were insulted instead.

That's it - the band can be blamed for nothing else. There was no anti-war, anti-military, anti-Citadel aspect --- just a humorous marching band playing pep-rally type music as it wandered the campus. There is no acceptable rationale for blaming Princeton fir this or even blaming Princeton for half of the problem. This is 96% The Citadel's fault for their out-of-control overreaction, and history will judge them harshly for it.

Posted by CitadelMan on September 23, 2008 at 9:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)

alfrente96: Do you know how much credibility you have? None. You weren't there.

Here's an interesting little fun fact. This happens every single friday we have a football game. The only difference is that its two companies of knobs trying to rush eachother's company areas. We fight a lot. Deal with it. When you put 500 angry college age men in a building it's just bound to happen, not out of malicious intent but just because they can. Princeton played with fire and got burned. I don't know about you, but If there's a wall of at least 1000 people who are screaming at you, the last place I'd try and go would be through them swinging clarinets and god knows what else. If they had simply walked back the other way, nothing would have happened.

Yeah, the band got wolf packed. The same things happens to knobs every day, so congratulations PUB, you just survived about 90 seconds of knob year. Bravo. Spit on your face from someone yelling at you? Just be glad the cadet didn't have a dip in. I don't feel the band members truely understand how mild this reaction was compared to what could have happened.

The halftime show was booed in direct response to the morning incident. It's a good thing that was, since no one at the stadium (cadets, grads, parents, anyone else for that matter) wanted to hear that garbage.

I've seen entire riots start in the barracks over things far less than a hostile band trying to march on our campus. I'm not excusing any outright unprovoked violence on the part of any cadets (which I still say didn't happen until they charged us), but you'd think Ivy Leaguers would have a bit more common sense to go along with their book smarts (which by the way, we're in no short supply of either).

So before you claim we're just a bunch of brutes, step back and ask yourself how much credibility you have on the issue.

-Citadel Class of 2010

Posted by mxyplizk on September 23, 2008 at 10:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I notice the author conveniently forgot to mention the homophobic slurs, the destruction of several band members' instruments, and the pushing/shoving that the cadets were also responsible for. What kind of medal do they get for that? I don't understand the mentality that being in the military discludes you from having to be held to other standards of moral decency.

Yes, there is a chance the cadets may lose their lives during military service, and those who lose them in a brave act deserve to be commended. But the way the human mind works is that we don't really acknowledge the possibility of death. It's why people drunk drive or participate in stupid stunts for entertainment. These cadets are in an age group especially known for not really understanding the full consequences of their actions, so just because they are in the military doesn't mean they are exemplary human beings. And that is demonstrated by their actions--they picked on weaker human beings.

That type of mentality is what resulted in prisoners being tortured, in a puppy being thrown off a cliff, in starving children in other countries being taunted with bottles of water. These cadets are some of the most reprehensible human beings I have had the misfortune to read about. They don't deserve to be in the military. The Princeton band deserves little blame for doing what everyone knows they do, what they've done for years, and what the administration of the school told them they could do. Shame on anyone who says the cadets were doing the right thing by exhibiting typical male machismo in their territorial natures and penchant for violence.

Posted by rtmoore on September 23, 2008 at 10:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

As a native South Carolinian who played football at Princeton, I am not surprised by this incident. I can't imagine a bigger culture clash than the Princeton band and the Citadel cadets. What you Citadel folks need to understand is that no one takes our band seriously. They are an irreverent group that makes inciteful comments about opposing schools to be funny. Trust me, if you think the things they said about the Citadel were insulting, you should hear what they say about Harvard and Yale. It is a joke. Nothing more. I am sometimes offended by their antics myself, but I just ignore them if I don't like it.

Having said that, the notion that the Princeton band could "threaten" the Citadel cadets is preposterous. Let me get this straight: the cadets felt threatened because the band members were "swinging their instruments" at them? That must be a joke. It is not like they were going to storm the Citadel and take over the campus with their trombones and clarinets. I can understand the cadets being annoyed, but there really is no excuse for attacking a marching band.

Finally, I regret that this silly episode is distracting from what was otherwise an enjoyable college football game between two fine institutions. Princeton did not play outside the Northeast when I attended in the 1990s, so the opportunity to see them match up against a Southern Conference team in a different environment was a lot of fun. I look forward to the game next year at Princeton. You Citadel fans should make the trip.

Posted by 07CitadelAlumS3 on September 23, 2008 at 10:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Ladies and Gentlemen,

The conduct of both the Princeton band and the Corps was equally as appalling this weekend.

Cadets,
If you really wanted to show your disdain for the Princeton band, then as the band entered the field for their halftime "show", the Regimental CO should have had each company stand and execute an about-face to turn our backs on the oxygen theives. Yes, I would argue that we, cadets and alumni both, are the rowdiest and most belligerent brutes on the planet, but we are known the world over for our discipline, solidarity, and toughness in the defense of this nation, business, law, and every other walk of life. I do not say things lightly but given my short time outside the gates having had the opportunity to work alongside professionals in both the military and the private sector, I can say that we are the best in everything we do. However, this reputation is not everlasting. It must be maintained and it is done so by our future actions as both cadets and alumni. Do not tarnish our rings. Do not give the masses a chance to make a snide remark about who we are or for what we stand. As demonstrated by the Princeton band, America's "celebrated" intellectual elite, America needs The Citadel now more than ever.

Posted by mxyplizk on September 23, 2008 at 10:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm not sure that I even agree that Princeton was at fault here. This is what scramble bands do. Most schools can take it in good humor. The administration at the Citadel approved it (and the march down the Walk of Remembrance), so it was reasonable for the Princeton band to expect that they would not be harassed over their performance. Why should they tone down their act just because these students will be in the military? Yes, it would be nice if the band had been perfectly civil and polite in their performance, but then it would not have been a scramble band. You can't blame a student organization for doing what they intended their organization to do.

Posted by CitadelGrad on September 23, 2008 at 11:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

@CitadelMan

There is no excuse for committing any type of violence against the Princeton Band. Whether you fight in the barracks is not relevant. The Band had permission to march on campus. They did not charge you. They scrambled when surrounded by cadets. The cadets had no business surrounding them and blocking their path. You had no business giving the Princeton Band 90 seconds of knob year. They are not knobs. They were guests who did only what the Citadel administration gave them permission to do.

As far as I know, the Citadel is still subject to state laws prohibiting assault and destruction of property. I will be very disappointed if those cadets who destroyed the Band's property and assaulted their members are not prosecuted. If the Princeton Band is accountable for its actions, then certainly Citadel cadets are accountable for theirs.

Posted by blueline on September 23, 2008 at 3:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I say that The Citadel's band should go up to Princeton and play "Dixie" all day. Since Princeton folks are enlightened and can recognize satire, nobody should be offended. Just think. the band will get to do something in New Jersey that they aren't allowed to do in Charleston!

Posted by CitadelMan on September 23, 2008 at 5:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"The Band had permission to march on campus."

It would've been nice had the commandant's department let us know, maybe we would've been more civil. I know I'd never seen a scramble band before, and I'm from PA. A simple heads up would have sufficed to prevent it from getting so physical. And sir, you were not there, and don't have our perception on what happened(nor the band's for that matter), thus aren't in any position to say whether or not we were charged. Myself and 2000 others perceived it as such, and we reacted accordingly. They also were not supposed to march the route they did, and that's coming from Regt. Ops.

And no, no cadets as of now are facing either civil punishment or punishment per the blue book. Actually, the administration seems to be proud of how we handled things.

Here's what you don't hear about:
1) Senior leadership got the Corps to back off within a couple minutes.
2) While the band marched through campus after the initial brawl, there were no cadets within easily 15 feet with the exception of our 12th man...
3) It shifted from verbal harassment to companies running their knobs around the band calling out jodies to drown them out.

If we're truly as undisciplined as Princeton, a few grads, and others who weren't present at either the game or the incident on the parade deck (I won't even call it a fight, once again, much worse happens behind the gates and it's all in good fun) claim, then the band would've gotten more than a broken clarinet. Instead of being judgmental how about realizing how well it went as opposed to how it could have gone had cadet leadership and a few TAC officers not stepped in. The administration has already said that it was a "learning experience" and I guarantee any other bands that are invited on campus are going to be handled much differently- on both sides. PUB has refused to officially apologize for their behavior, and thus I, and 2000 other of my fellow cadets have no sympathy.

"When in Rome..."

-Citadel Class of 2010

Posted by ghoti on September 23, 2008 at 6:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"One time, at bad camp..."

Posted by dixiechick on September 23, 2008 at 7:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Have you guys ever heard of General David Howell Petraeus, Commander of the United States Central Command? He'll be your boss if you join any branch of the military and fight in a war. He got his PhD in International Affairs from Princeton University in 1987.

Posted by scar988 on September 23, 2008 at 8:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

CitadelGrad, we never surrounded them. we had a road block and told them to go back to where they came from. then they charged us. they clearly had a way out. and it was in revers. And yes, they did charge us. you don't swing an instrument like a weapon and then say, "I was just scrambling." Because no one in the south knows WTF a scramble band is here. They ran at us, and swung their instruments. We took them down, because they charged us.

mattpage4 and chagrin,
yes they did get what they deserved. if they didn't want a confrontation they could have walked back the other direction and we would have been fine. but no,m they decided to run at us swing their instruments like clubs. how is that not getting what they deserved? they attacked us. We defended ourselves. And they deserved getting what they got. Because honestly, they could have left the way they came and we would have been happier. All we wanted was for them to get off of our campus. And to get off the avenue especially.

rtmoore,
An instrument like a clarinet can cause just as much damage as a broomstick can. And some cadets know what a broomstick would feel like. An instrument like a trombone (which is made out of metal) is like someone swinging a pipe at you. It's not hard to see that instruments can be classified as weapons very easily and I can break down every one of them for you if you would like.

that being said, I'm done here. I need to get back to doing what I need to do to get that ring.

Posted by JoanneH on September 24, 2008 at 7:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)

So, Dixiechick, are you implying that General Petraeus would be such a mug as to exact revenge on soldiers under his service over something like this? He'd better worry about our policies and behavior over there where the fighting is with more than clarinets.

I imagine as a military man he probably would have been dismayed at the behavior on both sides, the military and the band of his alma mater, but I imagine he didn't get in the position he holds by being petty.

Posted by saltersf1 on September 24, 2008 at 8:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)

At this point we have all begun to beat a dead horse. I hope you all can agree that both Princeton and The Citadel are fine institutions. In which both alumni have historically produced fine military personnel and leaders in our community. We should all be embarrassed of this incident, both parties had a few individuals disgrace themselves. Alumni from both institutions have great reputations because of three reasons: the fine men who have come before us, the fine faculties that have produce graduates from each institution, and the principles on which each institution were founded on. Anyone apart of the actual incident should quit pointing fingers and accept that they all acted like a boneheads this past weekend. You should start making restitution for your immature actions so this never happens again. I apologize on behalf of the entire Citadel family for anyone who was mistreated by this unfortunate incident. I am fully confident that those few cadets that behaved inappropriately are being dealt with accordingly. I hope that all of your opinions of each institution were not permanently tarnished based on this past weekends unfortunate events. I suggest to anyone still wanting to negatively comment on either institution, get for facts straight. Please go visit the respective college and learn something about not only the college's history but our country's.

Posted by mrucko on September 24, 2008 at 12:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Disrespectful and beneath contempt.

The fans of the Citadel should be ashamed of they unsportsmanlike conduct in regards to the members of the Princeton Band.

I suppose this is an insight to the brutish culture of this school.

I am sure that next year Princeton fans will remember this disgrace and act accordingly (but respectfully).

Posted by mattpage4 on September 24, 2008 at 1:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Woah woah, Scar so you're saying yall were intimidated by a band? wow they must have really been scary with their flutes and tubas, you guys were threatened by some band geeks? dont even try to make that excuse, spitting on women is about the lowest thing anybody can do, so no matter what you say they did (or not do), that in anyway shape or form is not acceptable, stop making excuses for your stupid and idiotic behavior

Posted by yale11 on September 24, 2008 at 9:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I second whoever said that what Princeton says about Harvard and Yale is far worse. Ivyleague "scatter" or "scramble" bands ALWAYS perform a script poking fun at something, usually the opposing team. As a member of our band I've made fun of, and been made fun of by the other teams marching bands but never felt the need to physically attack anyone or spit on them. In fact everyone usually manages to have a good time. Perhaps some remedial humor classes are in order.

Citadelman, the statement "I've seen entire riots start in the barracks over things far less than a hostile band trying to march on our campus" does nothing to improve the image of you're school.

Posted by blueman on September 25, 2008 at 11:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I am a Citadel Graduate and this whole thread is entertaining in itself. Scramble Bands are known for their lewd humor, wild pranks and pushing the limits of decency and authority. If they do no wrong or don’t perform offensive halftime shows why are they often they banned from returning to other campuses / events? Why do they submit halftime scripts, which are altered and not performed as submitted or vague on details? I can assure you their submitted script made no mention of band members dry humping.

"armory" - you can't tell me they were just marching thru campus without any thought as to what type of reaction they might get. You know their sole intent is to get reactions and create hostility. I am sure they meant no disrespect, but they did it to get a rise out of the cadets.

At the same time, such antics can be entertaining and part of the "rivalry-type" game day experience. When I was a cadet, I remember COC students sneaking on campus to paint our bulldog statue red, which required cadets to stand guard by the statue during the weeks of our rival basketball games. Or more recently when VMI stole the Commandant’s Jeep from The Citadel campus and transported it back to Virginia the week of their rival football game. No one knew it was missing until it was unveiled at halftime in “farm attire.” Clemson – USC has a great history of pranks. One that comes to mind is USC students dressing up as Clemson players and coming out on the field for warm ups. No one in the stands knew the players were imposters they starting doing cartwheels and wheelbarrow races for warm-ups. Sometimes they may cross the line and upset those on the receiving end. But my guess is those at The Citadel are upset because they were pranked and caught by surprise.

As for the halftime show…I didn’t see it but have heard it was a little raunchy, especially for the children in attendance. But as a whole, I hate I missed it. Keep up the fun and pranks; just keep it in good taste. And if Princeton is every lucky enough to return to Charleston, I am sure the cadets will have a prank of their own in store.

"SOSucks" - The Citadel, VMI, West Point, USNA and the AFA are all the same as far as leadership training and military preparation. The difference…graduates from the academies are required to serve because the Federal Gov. pays for the education. Free ride = 5 years service. Because most cadets at The Citadel pay for their education, they have the option of serving, unless you attend on a ROTC scholarship.

Posted by aquetong on September 26, 2008 at 6:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The Citadel is a school for those who couldn't get into West Point, Annapolis or USAFA let alone ANY Ivy League school. The cadets' boorish behavior only perpetrates my belief that these pseudo miliary schools are a place where parents who can pay the bill send their bad boys to learn to behave - and the Citadel isn't doing a very good job for the money! What about respecting others' opinions and engaging in dialogue? Is booing the only remedy Citadel cadets know to employ to recover their "honor" or does making a girl cry help elevate their manhood? Honor is in actions not in things.

Also, how did a valuable musical instrument get broken? Something more than booing or "circling" must have taken place.

Posted by 07CitadelAlumS3 on September 26, 2008 at 5:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Aquetong,

As an alumnus of The Citadel, I will neither defend or condone the actions of the cadets in the recent band altercation. Actions of both schools were deplorable at best. However, once someone treads on my alma mater, I will stand up in its defense with fierce passion.
I turned down an appointment to West Point. I decided not to go to Princeton, among may other very prestigious schools. And yes, my acadmeic record, extracurricualrs, and test scores placed me somewhere around the top 1 percent of all college applicants.
I am not a native of the state of South Carolina. I do not have any familial connection with The Citadel. I received a full-academic scholarship to The Citadel; I received full-academic scholarships to many other prestigious academic institutions around the country. But why did I choose a school if it is "for those who couldn't get in..."? (continued below)

Posted by 07CitadelAlumS3 on September 26, 2008 at 5:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I chose The Citadel because it, along with a very, very small group of other so-called "psuedo" military schools embodies something extraordinary which you will not find embraced by any other institution, including the academies.
To illistrate my point, I quote Congressman Steven Buyer "The mission of The Citadel is to prepare citizen-soldiers, a concept that dates back Cincinnatus. Since 1842, The Citadel has produced citizen-soldiers who have served gallantly in peace and war. Service is a way of life for Citadel graduates."
I chose The Citadel because of the concept of the citizen-soldier. It is etched into our character.
We are your neighbors. We are attorneys, doctors, teachers, businessmen, police officers, firefighters, national and community leaders. We distinguish ourselves from Princeton, West Point, and the Univeristy of Florida, because when we are needed, we will choose to step out of the protective enclaves of our personal lives to protect and defend our society and the innocent within. Without hesitation.
I am a lawyer and will soon be an Army reservist. I understand that when I will be called to duty, my life will be disrupted dramatically. Being called to duty is not pertaining to only military service. Very shortly into my first year, I realized that one of the most important duties as a human being is to maintain the capability to assist others, even total strangers. For us, the confidence to do such a thing, even in the face of overwhelming adversity or even the possibility of death, comes with certain attributes of fierceness and tenacity.
I encourage you to look up the stories of Arland D. Williams or Thomas D. Howie. Williams was a banker and Howie was a teacher. These are just two examples of the endless list of heroes, Citadel alumni and citizen-soldiers who gave the ultimate sacrifice in service. Whereas the culture of many colleges and univseristies around the country embrace their quarterbacks as their heroes, we embrace those such as Williams and Howie as ours.

Posted by 07CitadelAlumS3 on September 26, 2008 at 5:03 p.m. (Suggest removal)

If you ever have the opportunity to visit the beautiful city of Charleston, I also encourage you to take a short drive to The Citadel. Take your first right past the main gate. You will find yourself on the Avenue of Remembrance. The trees on the Avenue are dedicated to my brothers of both the present and past who have lost their lives in the service of others. On the Avenue, you will see our chapel. Park your car. Get out and walk up the steps to the entrance. To the left of the entrance you will see large brass tablets, one for each conflict our alumni were called to fight. Look at the names of The Citadel Patriot dead. Read every one. Touch the names. Feel every letter on the tips of your fingers. Every single Citadel graduate knows someone on etched into those brass tablets on the front of the chapel.
As a cadet what The Citadel's Honor Code means. Ask him about the incredible responsiblity he holds, knowing he is required to report a best friend for an honor violation, and if he doesn't, his toleration means he is just as guilty as his best friend.
Ask a passing alumnus the meaning of the solid gold Citadel Ring he carries on his hand. Ask him about how the absolute values which were hard-earned and learned or reinforced while at The Citadel. And then ask him how those values have affected every decision he has made in his life.
Then ask both the cadet and the alumnus how different their outlook on life would have been had they gone to Princeton.

"with a readiness to endure hardship and suffer if need be..."

These are only a few reasons that my decision to attend The Citadel was the right choice.

Posted by Riverside on September 26, 2008 at 5:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So if The Citadel is for people who didn't get into West Point then Princeton must be for the Harvard and Yale wannabes, right?

Posted by citadel84 on September 29, 2008 at 4:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Had this little episode occurred 28 years ago, my guess is that I would have been one of the Cadets leading the charge against the Princeton band. With that being said, I will leave it up to the administration of The Citadel to determine if an apology is necessary.

Unfortunately, we live in a country of rapid moral decay towards any form of pubic decency or national pride. The generation that is before us today has been taught that it is no longer accountable for its actions, that they have the right to do whatever “feels good (or right)”, and that any respect shown towards anyone that has different “beliefs” than themselves … is just flat out wrong, for they are wrong. If their parents and grandparents had felt the same way they do you would be reading this blog in German.

To stereotype a cadet from The Citadel as supporting any actions of southerner many generations before them is nothing short of an excuse to ridicule and narrow mindedness. To even imagine the antics of the so call band as being acceptable is nothing but a direct result of this moral decay and lack of national pride. They should try living in a third world country. I have seen places where the elderly lay on urine soaked mats – where children are scared to leave school because of the sexual predators that hang around outside the schools – where people are brutally murdered because of their sexual orientation – where men are imprisoned for only expressing their own opinions … need I go on. They are on a slippery slope. It’s not that they don’t know it. The real problem is that they don’t care.

With that being said (and not making excuses for the “band”) it is easy to say that the Princeton band had no concept of wrong doing when ridiculing a historic institution that has had so many Alumni sacrifice their lives in order for them to have the right to be free and voice their own opinion - no matter how hateful, vile, or morally wrong.

… And nothing anyone could say would change their minds

Posted by citadelblah on September 29, 2008 at 8:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Like much of the country, I was appalled at the incidents recorded at the Abu Ghraib Prison. I remember thinking to myself at the time, "I wonder what kind of education these soldiers had that would make them think that this behavior is acceptable".

Now I think I know.

Posted by citadel84 on September 29, 2008 at 11:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

... and out of left field ...

Posted by Lila on October 26, 2008 at 1:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

As I began to read the numerous articles related to this unfortunate incident, yours among many, Mr. Burger, I was prepared to feel angry due to the actions of The Citadel cadets; their behavior was reprehensible. I believe anyone who is not frightened of “liberals” will agree. However, the cadets of The Citadel may still be considered young by many, and as such, their actions perhaps weren’t those of mature individuals acting independently or wisely. You, Mr. Burger, have no such excuse. As saddened and appalled as I am by the cadets’ actions, I find myself doubly disgusted by the way that you’ve commended some of the most shameful types of human behavior. Is spitting on another human being, pushing someone to the ground, and verbally harassing him or her “medal-worthy” behavior? We Princetonians may be “pseudo-intellectuals”, but I firmly believe it would take quite a bit more than an off-color field show for most Princeton students or alumni to act like the worst sort of barbarians. It saddens me that the young people who are going to be entrusted with the safety of our nation are so quick to endanger and turn careless might on their fellow citizens. Ivy-league or not, we are all Americans, and more importantly, we are all human beings. It would serve you and the cadets well to remember that.

Posted by jbeyer on November 3, 2008 at 2:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Ken, you want to talk about respect and decency? What do you call this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyUZKojEQ...