Report: Fire Department's culture, store's code violations created time bomb'Completely unprepared' - 'Excessive and avoidable risks' The Post and Courier
Friday, May 16, 2008
A Charleston Fire Department overconfident in its ability to aggressively extinguish fires and totally lacking in modern tactics and equipment. A sprawling furniture store in violation of fire and building codes. The combination proved a deadly mix at the Sofa Super Store fire, according to a report from a city-appointed panel of firefighting experts. Photo GalleryFire Report Released A report from a city-appointed panel of firefighting experts regarding the Sofa Super Store fire was released to firefighters, victims' families, Charleston City Council and the news media Thursday. Firefighters were presented the report at the Gaillard Auditorium.
Insufficient training, inadequate staffing, obsolete equipment and outdated tactics contributed to an ineffective response and effort to control the June 18 fire in its early stages, the 272-page report released Thursday stated. Firefighters were outgunned from the start because their undersized hoses and other problems left them without the water they needed while the fire burned hidden in the ceiling over their heads. The department's time-tested, one-size-fits-all approach to battling fires in downtown Charleston's historic homes and buildings was no match for a raging blaze at a massive suburban furniture outlet stuffed full of flammable couches. "The culture of the Charleston Fire Department promoted aggressive offensive tactics that exposed firefighters to excessive and avoidable risks and failed to apply basic firefighter safety practices," the report said. "The strategy and tactics attempted by Department members were inappropriate for the situation and exposed the firefighters to extreme and unnecessary risks." Charleston Mayor Joe Riley said there was no connection between Chief Rusty Thomas' announcement Wednesday of his decision to retire June 27 and the report's findings. But some experts said the report is so damning that they have no doubt it influenced Thomas' abrupt announcement. The panel pointed to command failures and the water problems as predominant factors in the Fire Department's "unstructured and uncoordinated" response to the blaze. Chief takes responsibility Thomas sat stone-faced with arms crossed during the city-appointed panel's presentation to City Council. He attended the briefing with his wife, Carol, who sat by his side. Video
Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas speaks about the Charleston 9 in city council chambers Thursday evening Watch » After the presentation, Thomas said he had not had a chance to study the report in detail, but he's not sure any document could fully capture what occurred at the fire. "No one, no expert in this country, will ever know what took place in that building that night," he said. Still, Thomas said he accepts responsibility for what happened as the chief commander at the fire. "I'm so sorry that myself or somebody could not have done something different that night to bring back those nine guys." The report provided a comprehensive and frank account of a fast-moving trash fire that spiraled into a raging inferno, warped steel and sent the roof crashing down on firefighters within 40 minutes of the first 911 call. The suspected cause of the fire was the careless disposal of "smoking materials" near a heap of discarded furniture, packaging materials and highly flammable solvents that the store was not permitted to stockpile. Read the reportThe report described a chaotic scene in which firefighters charged into the building with no clear strategy for how to attack an intense fire that they were completely unprepared to fight. The report concluded that the immensity of the fire and sheer volume of flammable materials demanded that firefighters back away and battle the blaze defensively from outside the building with aerial ladders and other resources. The department's command system was virtually nonexistent, the report said, leaving firefighters without supervision or clear instructions and leaving commanders with no idea of who was where and what they were doing. No one was monitoring who was in the building, how long they were inside or how much air they had left in their tanks. Key tasks were left undone and stand-by rescue teams were never established in the rush to funnel as many people inside as possible. Command failure "The predominant factor identified in the analysis of Fire Department operations is the failure to manage the incident according to accepted practices," the report stated. "There was no structured incident command system in place, and the essential duties of an Incident Commander were not performed. Fire Timeline7:00 p.m.: Approximate time the fire began. 7:07: A passer-by reports the fire using 911. 7:10: The first firefighters arrive at the store. 7:16: Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas arrives. 7:25: Firefighters inside the showrooms have zero visibility. St. Andrews Fire Department offers assistance and use of a thermal imaging device. Thomas initially declines offer. 7:26:35: An employee calls 911 and states he is trapped in the rear of the store. 7:27:44: Firefighter Melvin Champaign radios the first indication of distress from inside the store. The first of a series of more than a dozen radioed calls for help from firefighters in the showroom will go unheard by commanders at the scene. 7:31:19: The trapped store employee is rescued. 7:30: An off-duty battalion chief rushing to the fire hears panicked distress calls and tries to call Thomas, but can't get through on the overworked radio channel. 7:33: The battalion chief arrives at the scene and tells Thomas about the distress calls. 7:34:18: Last word from a firefighter in trouble inside the store. 7:35:25: Thomas directs men to break the front windows in hopes of providing visibility for firefighters still inside. 7:37:37: Flames boil from the store's front windows. 7:38:09: Thomas orders "Everyone abandon the building." "The operation was conducted in an unstructured and uncoordinated manner, without overall direction and with inadequate supervision. The Charleston Fire Department was inadequately staffed, inadequately trained, insufficiently equipped, and organizationally unprepared to conduct an operation of this complexity in a large commercial occupancy." The report also contains new details about the earliest minutes of the fire. Alerted by a passer-by that a fire had broken out at the back of the building, a store employee grabbed a fire extinguisher and trained it on a small fire near the loading dock. He ran back into the store for a second extinguisher, but by the time he returned, the smoke had overtaken the loading dock and swept inside the building. The first crews of firefighters began arriving about that same time, the report said. Thomas was not the initial commander on the scene. He arrived as the blaze was spreading into the store and before the first distress calls were made from firefighters lost or trapped inside. He and Assistant Fire Chief Larry Garvin failed to follow nationally recognized standards that call for commanders to stay put so they can monitor changing fire conditions and coordinate manpower and equipment, the report said. Instead, they were all over the place, barking independent and simultaneous orders and inserting themselves in front-line operations. This left no one with an outside overview of the rapidly changing conditions as the store filled with superheated smoke and toxic vapors needing only fresh oxygen to erupt. The report said fire commanders did not hear pleas for help from firefighters who were lost in the store's maze-like layout, running out of air and struggling to navigate through coal-black smoke and super-heated air. Fragmented communications from lost and disoriented firefighters continued for approximately seven minutes. Fallen firefighter Melvin Champaign called for help over his radio numerous times from inside the store. "We need some help," he pleaded. "Can you hear me, dispatcher?" A moment later, he prayed. "In Jesus' name, Amen." No one responded to his calls. "The radio messages indicating that firefighters were in distress were not heard by anyone at the incident scene," the report said. Champaign's cousin, Carl Champaign, was devastated after learning of his relative's desperate, unanswered calls for help. "Right now, my heart is broke," he said Thursday. The department did not adhere to accepted radio communication protocols designed to provide orderly instructions and to ensure that "mayday" calls from firefighters are heard and immediately acted upon, the consultants found. "The communications process was not controlled. The Fire Chief, the Assistant Chief, and Battalion Chief 4 were all issuing orders and providing direction independently, using a single overloaded radio channel. Critical messages, including distress messages from firefighters inside of the structure, were not heard," according to the panel, headed by former Shreveport, La., Fire Chief Gordon Routley. Related storiesAfter 11 months, origin of blaze still not known Roger Yow, president of the local firefighters union that represents about half of the city's 250 firefighters, said that while the report touched on numerous issues, just about all of them tie back to poor management at the scene. "Any incident commander who has any training doesn't commit 16 firefighters inside a building without an adequate water supply established." Randy Hutchinson, a former Charleston firefighter who lost his brother, Capt. Billy Hutchinson, in the fire, said the report underscored problems that were known early on but few wanted to talk about, namely the failure of commanders. "It definitely points out there was no command structure whatsoever at the fire. Period." Janet Wilmoth, editorial director for Fire Chief magazine, said the report was an impressive piece of work that will provide important lessons for the fire service. It also proved what she has known all along: The department depended on antiquated and backward methods that cost nine men their lives, she said. "They were out of touch and in over their heads." The department's policy at the time of allowing firefighters' air tanks to be only partially filled left some firefighters inside the store running out of air in as little as 12 or 13 minutes, according to the panel. As a choking blanket of smoke filled the showroom, frantic firefighters scrambled to find a way out before their air tanks ran dry. One firefighter described how his comrades collided with him in the rush to escape. One desperate firefighter even crawled between his legs. At least 16 firefighters were inside at the time. But Thomas was unaware of this "critical situation" inside the showroom until an off-duty battalion chief arrived and told him about the distress calls, the report said. Thomas didn't have an overall grasp of the operation and had assumed that things were going well and that Garvin was "conducting a successful operation to keep fire from extending into the showrooms." Breaking out the windows As conditions worsened, Thomas, and later Garvin, ordered firefighters to smash the front showroom windows to clear away smoke and help the men inside, witnesses told the panel. That action had almost immediate consequences. "There is ample evidence that breaking the windows provided air to the fire and accelerated the ignition of the showroom contents," the report stated. "The windows were broken at approximately 19:35 (7:35 p.m.) and the interior of the main showroom became fully involved within three to four minutes." Firefighter CoverageIn our special section with photos, videos, interactives, donation information and every story written about the tragedy.The panel stated that breaking the windows likely accelerated the flashover that occurred. However, they noted that there were very few viable options at that point. "If the windows had not been broken, the atmosphere probably would have become ripe for a backdraft to occur within a short time," the report stated. Neither Thomas nor Garvin recalled giving orders to break the windows, the report stated. But St. Andrews firefighter Steven Beasley told The Post and Courier this week that he clearly recalls Thomas giving the order to smash out the glass spanning the front of the store. "That's not the way you are supposed to do it, but (Thomas) was the incident commander. He's the one who calls the shots." Moments later, Beasley and fellow St. Andrews firefighter Daniel Bilton entered the store in one last-ditch effort to rescue downed firefighters. They managed to get hold of two firefighters just inside the showroom. About the reportThe nearly 300-page report on the Sofa Super Store fire released Thursday is a culmination of hundreds of hours of work and the examination of hundreds of documents that began in August, two months after the fatal June 18 blaze that killed nine Charleston firefighters. The six-member, city-appointed panel, headed by former Shreveport, La., Fire Chief Gordon Routley, was tasked with independently reviewing every aspect of the response. Panel members pored over radio chatter and interviewed scores of firefighters, studied building documents, equipment, photographs and video. On Aug. 17, after less than a week of work, the panel announced its initial list of findings, saying the department's outmoded tactics and dated equipment must undergo significant change in order to catch up with basic fire-service standards followed throughout the country. Those findings were reinforced Thursday. Still to come is a long-range strategic plan for the department. In addition to Routley, other team members are: --Kevin Roche, assistant fire marshal and assistant to the fire chief in Phoenix. -- Tim Sendelbach, former chief of training for Savannah Fire and Emergency Services. -- Brian Crawford, assistant to the fire chief in Shreveport and resident instructor at the National Fire Academy. -- Mike Chiarmonte, a fire inspector and former fire chief in Lynbrook, N.Y. -- Pete Piringer, spokesman for the review panel. But the air rushing in through the broken windows fed the hungry flames and a ball of fire shot through the store, thrusting Beasley and Bilton back outside and causing them to lose their grip on the downed firefighters. Hours later, recovery crews would find the bodies of fallen firefighters Earl Drayton and Brad Baity, just a short distance from the front doors. Ann and Mike Mulkey, the parents of fallen Capt. Louis Mulkey, said they believe their son died needlessly because of command failures and water problems. The report said Mulkey died in an office near the back of the building, not far from a blocked exit door. "They died not really knowing why they were dying," Mike Mulkey said. "I pictured my son making it to that door and standing there burning to death." Families of the fallen firefighters were briefed on the report Thursday morning, followed by presentations for firefighters later in the day. Firefighters filed into the Gaillard Auditorium for the panel's afternoon presentation. Within 20 minutes, some had heard enough and left the auditorium. Outside, they hugged, smoked cigarettes and tried to make sense of the overwhelming report. Capt. Jamie Greene, of Engine Co. 6 on Cannon Street, was among those who left early, unable to listen to the unsettling account. "I didn't read the whole report and I doubt I ever will. It's pretty upsetting." Some who read the report expressed continued support for Thomas, and said the findings made it clear that much of the tragedy was out of the chief's hands. Holly Gildea, daughter of fallen Capt. Mike Benke, said she was saddened by the report, particularly the problems firefighters ran into with lack of water and running out of air in their tanks. But she said Thomas should not shoulder all the blame; there is plenty to go around. "We can't point our finger at Rusty. It was not all him. It was such a mixture of things. I wish him all the best. He has his own nightmare as well as us." Death trap? The report painted a picture of the sofa store as a time bomb waiting to be lit. It described the store as a death trap, identifying its dense layout of furniture, padlocked doors and poorly maintained or identified exits. "The inadequate number of exits, locked exits, and obstructed paths to exits significantly reduced the potential for firefighters who were inside the showroom buildings to find a path to safety. "The fire could have been prevented. If the property had been constructed and maintained in accordance with state and local codes the fire would have been quickly controlled; no lives would have been lost and the fire would have been of little consequence," according to the report. Richard Rosen, attorney for sofa store owner Herb Goldstein, did not return calls seeking comment. Jean Dangerfield, sister of fallen firefighter Michael French, said the numerous violations at the store highlighted in the report should not go unnoticed. Building owners need to ensure their properties are safe and up to code "so these guys aren't walking in on a suicide mission." Capt. Art Wittner, the lone surviving member of the Engine 16 crew that responded to the fire that night, said the Fire Department now needs to move past the blame game and find a way to come together once again. "I don't want the city of Charleston Fire Department to hurt like it's been hurting," he said. "Let's start healing." KEY FINDINGS Based on previous recommendations from the city-appointed review panel, the Charleston Fire Department is undergoing a massive overhaul of its training, staffing, tactics and equipment. The city also has improved its building- and fire-inspection programs. The review panel's report said the following key factors existed at the time of the Sofa Super Store fire June 18: Building and property -- The Sofa Super Store was a high-risk occupancy that presented several specific risks to the health and safety of firefighters, the store's employees, customers, neighbors and the surrounding community. -- The level of fire risk exceeded the limits prescribed by established regulations and would have — or should have — been mitigated if the applicable codes and standards had been followed, applied and enforced. -- The fire could have been prevented. If the property had been constructed and maintained in accordance with state and local codes the fire would have been quickly controlled. No lives would have been lost and the fire would have been of little consequence. Fire department operations -- The fire-suppression operations that were conducted by the Fire Department at the Sofa Super Store did not comply with federal occupational health and safety regulations, with national consensus standards, or with modern fire service expectations. -- These deviations from standard operational and safety practices exposed firefighters to excessive risks and failed to remove the nine firefighters from a critically dangerous situation. -- The predominant factor identified in the analysis of Fire Department operations is the failure to manage the incident according to accepted practices. There was no structured incident command system in place and the essential duties of an incident commander were not performed. The operation was conducted in an unstructured and uncoordinated manner, without overall direction and with inadequate supervision. -- The Charleston Fire Department was inadequately staffed, inadequately trained, insufficiently equipped, and organizationally unprepared to conduct an operation of this complexity in a large commercial occupancy. -- The department attempted to compensate for the limited resources and organizational inadequacies by engaging in dangerously aggressive and uncoordinated firefighting operations. Robert Behre, Noah Haglund, David Slade, Schuyler Kropf, Tenisha Waldo, Jessica Johnson and Doug Pardue contributed to this report. Reach Ron Menchaca at rmenchaca@postandcourier.com or 937-5724. Reach Glenn Smith at gsmith@postandcourier.com or 937-5556. |
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Comments
This article has 78 comment(s)
Posted by Thomas1776 on May 16, 2008 at 1:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)
What these reports are telling us is, the Charleston Fire Department can easily deal with a house fire, but not properly battle any large commercial or industry blazes.
Large buildings like Charleston Place, MUSC, Roper-St Francis, and any other mega buildings and places of assembly are basically at a VERY high risk - with sprinklers systems or not. What if a large plane full of jet fuel experienced mechanical trouble and crashed into MUSC.
Obviously, Riley and Rusty have ignored everyone's safety and well being. Obviously, Riley is as old as dirt and doesn't have the people's best interest at heart - their safety and their LIVES.
Even the code enforcement is serious lacking and apparently irresponsible and not doing it's job. And who is in charge of all of these departments?
Riley has fooled everyone for way to long. Riley is a power freak and like to conquer. This is the typical mentality of small frail man. Look him over up and down. He loves of conquer. He loves to rule over others. He enjoys the thrill of what he thinks he can get away with. He has all these factory patent lines and techniques he uses in his attempts to confuse, distort, and circumvent the truth.
Riley clearly hates the Town of James Island because they beat him out. But he can't stand to lose, so he continues to waste 100s of thousands of YOUR money for his own self-satisfactions. Again, he can't stand to lose. And now he is on the hot plate. Whatch him closely as he goes into his act and role of a humble old withering and droopy looking excuse for a man. He is a psychopath in sheeps clothing.
Riley has got to go. No more of him. Get him out of office. We need someone who is truly honest and who will really manage our city and protect us. Not some power freak like he is that uses all these baloney excuses that nobody is buying.
Posted by Thomas1776 on May 16, 2008 at 1:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Lastly, I want our men and women of the CFD to have the best gear, best trucks, best equipment and training that money can buy. After all, they risk their lives for us all. We can't afford anything less anymore.
Posted by moonpie on May 16, 2008 at 6:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Now its hit the national news! This was heart wrenching to read and I have been commenting on it for a week. I still can't get it out of my mind and heart. When I read the calls for help that went unheard and then the stupid things that were done, the total chaos on the scene, its scary! This is not like its a high rise building. It was a one level structure. I hate to agree with "thomas" but I agree with "thomas"! What if...?
• Poor training, old equipment led to deaths of 9 S.C. firefighters, MSN HEADLINE
Posted by Thomas1776 on May 16, 2008 at 7:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I could careless whether anybody agrees with me or not. But the fact is, Riley has got to be forced out of office. The government of the City of Charleston is a total fricken mess. How much stealing is going on? How many sign offs on things that were never actually done? Who is checking and policing out City? Well one thing is for certain, Riley SURELY isn't!!
And that Richard Todd of WTMA that stands behind Riley is nothing but a placator who is kissing the Mayors feet!
Posted by amberjack2362 on May 16, 2008 at 8:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hind sight is always 20/20. Why does the state or Professional Firefighters Association ( if there is one) schedule bi-yearly or yearly exams to inspect the training, equipment, and tactics used to combat fires?
All rules & requlations from state policies, procedures laws, OSHA requirements, are wriiten with blood. The case is someone always has to die before a policy changeor improvements are made.
I wonder what they are teaching at the Fire Academy and is it up to national standards, and then when they get to Chareleston " it's my way or the high way "
The deficiencies in Charleston Fire Dept as discussed in the report did not happen yesterday. They grew overtime. Who was inspecting the Dept over the last 20 years? No one, where was the tax money going for the proper equipment? It was sent to build a tunnel for golf carts, or for sand for private condos. The Mayor has STOLEN FROM THE POOR AND GIVEN TO THE RICH.
I hope all other officers in the Fire Dept keep open minds to learn new & safer tactics for their men & women & the citizens of Charleston.
Posted by PennyGirl on May 16, 2008 at 8:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This sort of ranting and self serving bile is of no use.
These men were failed by their leaders top to bottom. We live in an idealic place where things like this don't happen...well they do happen and the 9 fallen heros deaths will not be in vain.
Our podunk policies will change now to join the modern world.
God bless these families
Posted by Paul on May 16, 2008 at 8:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Even though we reelected him, maybe now its time to start a recall petition.
Posted by archdude on May 16, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Thomas (or is it the dude formerly known as Palmetto Man),
If a plane full of jet fuel crashes into MUSC it is a lost cause anyway. There is not a thing any fire department could do to correct that before there were devastating results.
Bad form, old chap!
Posted by east4 on May 16, 2008 at 9:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Well All of you who have said in the past that Rusty did the best for the Fire Dept are now seeing what we have been saying all along. Not one of us has said that he is a bad guy, great in the community, all of those things. But he is NOT A FIRE CHIEF!!!!!
He as he told us yesterday "I did the best I could that night". Well guess what? It was not nowhere close to being good enough.
I can assure you that if I used those words to him when I did something wrong at work, he would tell me that my best is not good enough and demote me in a minute. No questions asked.
Now he gets to go out on his terms. He is being held responsible, but he is still going out on his terms. He will be forever known as the Chief that because of his ignorance, arrogance, and pride contributed to the death of nine firefighters.
Please we need your continued support. The one year anniversary is coming up. We will be going through changes that have never been of this magnitude before. Whenever you see one of us in the grocery store, at the mall, or riding in a truck down the road. Take the time to give a little wave or some form of acknowledgment. It will mean the world. I can assure you.
Posted by WardLaFrance on May 16, 2008 at 9:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Amberjack asked: Why does (n't) the state or Professional Firefighters Association ( if there is one) schedule bi-yearly or yearly exams to inspect the training, equipment, and tactics used to combat fires? That's what the Insurance Services Organization does. It comes in and inspects the equipment, training records, water supply, and personnel. The city was supposedly a class one fire department. That classification is easy to get if you have a battalion chief taking equipment off one truck and racing through the streets to the next station to be inspected to add that equipment on the next truck. If you pencil whip the training reports or work hard in other ways to beat the system, you get a class one rating. Someone above mentioned that the CFD had no trouble fighting house fires- just industrial fires. That's not true. CFD was just lucky time after time while playing russian roulette with the lives of the personnel.
Posted by WardLaFrance on May 16, 2008 at 9:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
East4: The anniversary will be tough to get through. We hope though that you will be able to look ahead to a time when good training and equipment will get you through the tough times. You've done so much with so little for so long, you can almost do everything with nothing.
Posted by Sad_Brokenhearted on May 16, 2008 at 9:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Regarding the Post by Thomas1776 on May 16, 2008 at 1:33 a.m. in which he said:
“Lastly, I want our men and women of the CFD to have the best gear, best trucks, best equipment and training that money can buy. After all, they risk their lives for us all. We can't afford anything less anymore.”
I wholeheartedly agree, however I think it is so sad that out of the “Charleston Nine,” there are 2 Captains who are lying in unmarked graves. Their estranged wives apparently don’t want to part with their “new-found millions” to purchase the necessary stonework. Yet, they will be at the June 18 memorial service with “bells and whistles” waiting for the cameras to roll so they can tell everyone that their loved ones were heroes—just not hero enough to warrant a marker at their grave site apparently! But, of course, send more money—they need it.
Posted by MARK on May 16, 2008 at 9:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
WARDLAFRANCE
YOU MUST BE TALKING ABOUT N.CHARLESTON FIRE WITH ALL THE EQUIPMENT SWAPPING.
Posted by ColdBeer on May 16, 2008 at 9:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)
P&C, if the statements made by Sad_Brokenhearted about the grave markers are true, the P&C needs to do some investigative reporting and bring this issue to the public's attention.
Posted by WardLaFrance on May 16, 2008 at 10:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Mark: If this is something that NCFD does as well, they need to be on notice. Just because CFD was the department with the loss doesn't mean it can't happen again in another department and in another way. Even the loss of one is too much. I feel very sad for Rusty. He's a nice guy and knowing he ultimately is responsible for the loss of nine men is devastating. He didn't have the education or the leadership capabilities that he needed. However, it's not like people didn't try to tell him. The Fire Academy, other chiefs from other departments and even his own men tried to make him understand and he blew them off. It was a helluva price to pay for being cocky. Do you remember in the first hours after the fire, Rusty told the world that he wouldn't do anything different- wouldn't fight the fire any differently. I think he is doubly shocked now, but what he didn't know.
Posted by ChrisPia on May 16, 2008 at 10:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
What can we learn from this incident to improve our first responders?
1-Safety Of Our First Responders and Public should be the Top Priority Always.
2-Funding for the Best Equiptment and Training is a priority
3-Leadership Should always try to better the Training and Equiptment and Safety for their members and the Public.
4-First Responders need an avenue to speak out on Safety Issues without the Fear of retaliation.
5-The People in Leadership roles must have experience and be willing to strive to get Better all the time.
6-The People in Leadership Need to or willing to Listen to their men on Safety Issues and leave the Egos,Biases,and Politics at the door so as to make it a great safe atmosphere for their men and women to work.
7-Leadership must Realize that there are some great policies for safety of our First responders all over the State,Country,Federally and Nationwide that might Help advance them into a top notch organization.They Must research and utilize these advancements in Training and technology.
8-Leaders need to be open to learn from others all the time.Many people have knowledge that goes untapped for a variety of reasons.
9- It should not take a tradegy to improve your first responders training and equiptment.
10-We Need Quality Accountable Leadership for our First responders.
11-We Need Quality Training.
12 We need the Best available Equiptment and Technology.
13- We Need to Work together to accomplish these Goals.
14-We Need to Thank All the first Responders For Putting their lives on the line everyday.It Goes a long way to say"Thank You"
15- We Need to Improve our Infrastructure in the Low Country and improve our First responders.(manpower,technology,training etc)
This is My opinion and I hope I don't Offend anyone.
Posted by jerrytj on May 16, 2008 at 10:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)
HOW LONG WILL WE GO ON NOW DISCUSSING THE PAST? DO WHAT HAS TO BE DONE AND GET WITH IT! I DOUBT IT WILL MAKE MUCH DIFFERANCE WITH WHAT HAPPENS IN THE FUTURE, AS FAR AS BUILDINGS GETTING AWAY WITH LOOP HOLES IN HOW BUILDINGS ARE ADDED ON. THEY WILL ALWAYS FIND WAYS TO GET OUT OF DOING WHAT THE LAW REQUIRES. WHAT THE FIRE DEPARTMENT MUST DO IS START CONDUCTING INSPECTIONS OF BUILDINGS AND FAILING THE ONE THAT DON'T! IT IS THAT SIMPLE! WHEN MENS LIVES ARE AT STAKE! IM SORRY BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT THE CHIEF'S RETIREING HAD EVERYTHING TO DO WITH THE REPORT! HOW COULD IT NOT?? WHY KEEP ON LIEING ABOUT IT? THIS HAPPENED FOR A REASON, BUT LETS NOT LET THESE MENS DEATH BE IN VAIN!
Posted by WardLaFrance on May 16, 2008 at 10:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
jerrytj: "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." Santayana
Posted by blah_blah_blah on May 16, 2008 at 10:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
....and for stupid furniture store.
God bless those 9 and I hope they have a special place in Heaven.
Posted by vesta on May 16, 2008 at 10:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)
As Ward said, hindsight is always clearer than foresight. If there is one, among many, lessons to be learned here it is that standards (fire department) and codes (businesses) are in effect for a reason....to protect everyone. The bottom line in our society lately has been MONEY. The questions seem to be where can we "cut corners"? The answer is, if you are a business, "If you can not have a building up to codes, CLOSE it." If you are a public agency, such as a fire department, "If you cannot properly train, equip and wisely lead a fire department, shut it down rather than risk the lives of the ffs and the community operating it in such an inadequate manner." These are some of the MANY lessons we have learned from this fire. There is no value possible on a human life.
Posted by motoflyguy on May 16, 2008 at 11:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Vesta is spot on!
Its about the money
Had there not been a repressive tap fee from ther city water system of 60,000 dollars that caused the store owner to opt out of sprinklers this would have never happened!
Had the owner not circumvented the building code this would not have happened!
Had there been sprinklers the building would not have burned to the ground ...on the very next day in florida a similar fire occured and it was extinguished by two sprinkler heads with no injury or deaths and the bussiness was back up and operating the same day!
Finally there is a bill in the sc legislature that is stuck in committee because the Govonor says we cant afford the sprinkler law..."we are destined to repeat this tradegy!!"
But dont worry because we are saving all that money
IT MAKES ME WANT TO PUKE!!!
Posted by vesta on May 16, 2008 at 12:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
One of the concerns I had from the beginning was the breaking of the windows. There seems to be some conflict over whether it was the chief or assistant chief who ordered the windows broken out. The Routely Report states that the remains of Engineer 19 and Firefighter 19 were found within 40 feet of the main doors in the main showroom. I wonder if the use of the thermal imager would have detected at least these individuals and allowed a RIT (Rapid Intervention Team) team to get to them and perhaps rescue them as living individuals. From the report, “ Breaking the windows probably accelerated the flashover sequence that occurred in the main showroom; however there were very few options available at that time. Firefighters were lost and either out of air or running out of air inside the building…If the windows had not been broken, the atmosphere probably would have become ripe for a backdraft to occur within a short time.” What is that “short time”? If the windows hadn’t been broken out, would it have allowed four minutes, six minutes to use that thermal imager (which was on the scene and not used) for rescue purposes? Once the windows were broken out, and a flashover occurs, it is my understanding that a ff has less than 17 seconds to evacuate a flashover environment if wearing proper NFPA approved gear. The Pundt cell phone video shows a ff, under orders, casually breaking out the front west end windows. It does not appear to be a quick “life saving” attempt. Again, a strong statement for proper equipment, proper training and proper leadership in a fire department.
Posted by motoflyguy on May 16, 2008 at 12:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Be assured that there are other buildings in this city and area that are also "ticking time bombs" because they are not maintained and the life safety systems are substandard but the city building and fire depts dont know about it.
It is soooo unfair to make the incident commander make decisions on the scene when he doesnt know the building life safety systems are substandard!
This whole devastating tradegy should have been only a dusty record of mandated code compliance in the files of the city fire and building department.
If your building does not meet the code standards then the city should not renew its business license ...End of story period
Posted by every_1_goeshome on May 16, 2008 at 12:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
What a report, it is incredibly damming of the entire CFD. Now the general public knows what the rest of the SC Fire Service has known for years... The City of Charleston FD is a JOKE!
Posted by every_1_goeshome on May 16, 2008 at 12:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
But don't worry Charleston now one of Rusty's hand picked, and Rusty trained leaders are running the FD. Maybe it's the Assistant Chief who fell asleep recently at a nationally advertised training event right here in Charleston ( boy did the guys from out of town FD's think that was prophetic) or Maybe it's Garvin, who owns as much of the responsibility for the nine deaths as RT, but still has the nerve to put on the uniform and call himself a firefighter. There are Volunteer Fire Departments in Rural Dorchester County that are better trained, better equipped and have better leadership than the CFD.
Posted by techu2 on May 16, 2008 at 12:40 p.m. (Suggest removal)
whoa-- slow down killer.. Don't get me wrong, there is at least 1 good combo department in Upper Dorchester- who has a respected chief, but to make a broad statement about the CFD being worse than a rural fire department is just crazy. As much as they train, the rural departments don't get the call volume.
Posted by Thomas1776 on May 16, 2008 at 1:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
archdude,
What are you talking about? Idiot.
Posted by Thomas1776 on May 16, 2008 at 1:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
""out of the “Charleston Nine,” there are 2 Captains who are lying in unmarked graves. Their estranged wives apparently don’t want to part with their “new-found millions” to purchase the necessary stonework. Yet, they will be at the June 18 memorial service with “bells and whistles” waiting for the cameras to roll so they can tell everyone that their loved ones were heroes—just not hero enough to warrant a marker at their grave site apparently! But, of course, send more money—they need it.""
Low life scums, those women are.
Posted by Thomas1776 on May 16, 2008 at 1:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
CBSs 60 Minutes is going to make Riley look like a little "Hitler."
Posted by Thomas1776 on May 16, 2008 at 1:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
WTMA Rocky D is clearly a moron about this matter. What does he know anyway? Nothing but a mouth looking for attention.
Posted by archdude on May 16, 2008 at 1:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thomas,
I am talking about your appearance on March 8, 2008 right as a user by the name of Palmetto Man disappeared after having the exact same type of posts that you always have...hateful and vengeful towards any government entity. It is just amazing you popped up to take his place after he was no longer on the boards due to so much angst levied against him by his co-posters.
Idiot...I do not think so. But, name calling is your typical manner of thought...and rightfully so for a person who has the mentality of a 6 month old. Have you ever had posts that don't call someone a name?
Posted by PalmettoHawk on May 16, 2008 at 1:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)
So you've hired a contractor to build, add-on or remodel your home/business without the proper permits, its okay, he probably knows the Building Inspector (wink, wink, nudge, nudge). "Why certainly Mr. Building Inspector every thing is to code," no need for you to get curious or determine if there is any issue with the construction.
Every contractor that had a hand in adding onto the SSS is now culpable, liable and waiting for the terrible swift and sharp sword of judgement to fall on their heads. Better hurry Mr. Lawyer, get those lawsuits filed before the contractors go out of business or re-incorporate as a different entity.
Posted by bravecharleston9myspace on May 16, 2008 at 1:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
THAT IS TRUE...MARK KELSEY'S GRAVE IS NOT MARKED IN INDIANA.... HIS MOTHER DOES NOT HAVE THE MONEY.
I SPEAK WITH HER DAILY...
Posted by rkelley48 on May 16, 2008 at 1:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
In reading the reports I find myself screaming at the computer. Where was command? What did the first due ladder company do? Basic vertical ventilation would have given the fire a place to go other than into the showroom. Water supply? 2 1/2 supply lines? Multiple supply lines were required. Can't pump 750gpm when you only have 500gpm coming in. Cavitation? collapsing supply lines? That should tell you something. 1" hand lines? Where were the BIG guns?What was a chief officer doing inside the building opening doors? The rush of air should have told him things were going to get ugly. Tar on the windows tells me someone was not reading the signs. To say that they created there own hell is an understatement. It is the responsibility of the Chief that things went the way they did. He quit, others died. Now we are hearing about the money spent on upgrades. 45 minute air packs, accountability systems and thermal cameras. How are these things going to help in fire fighting? What about LDH? Where are the change of tactics? Training improvements? Don't want to sound hard but nine guys lost their lives because of inability to adapt. Just to let ya know I have 30 years on the job. 20 paid and 10 vol. and still counting.
Posted by bravecharleston9myspace on May 16, 2008 at 1:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)
HIS MOTHER IS NOT GETTING A DIME...AND HE HAS NO WIFE....
SO...THAT IS WHY HIS GRAVE IS FORGOTTEN.
Posted by bravecharleston9myspace on May 16, 2008 at 1:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
"Don't want to sound hard but nine guys lost their lives because of inability to adapt. Just to let ya know I have 30 years on the job. 20 paid and 10 vol. and still counting."
WITH ALL THOSE YEARS OF EXPERIENCE....COULD YOU HAVE OPENED A CHAINED EXIT DOOR IN THE BACK OFFICE OF A BURNING BUILDING?? COULD YOU HAVE GOTTEN ANYONE...I MEAN ANYONE....TO FINALLY HEAR YOU OVER THE RADIO DURING YOUR LAST...LONELY FINAL MOMENTS?????? YELLING OVER AND OVER AGAIN????? WHAT IN YOUR EXPERIENCE IN THOSE MOMENTS....WOULD HAVE SAVED YOUR LIFE TO BE HEARD????
sigh......
:O(....................
Posted by dadsemt on May 16, 2008 at 1:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Lack of command, lack of equipment, over-bloated ego's, and lack of ownership in their duties contributes to Firefighter deaths.
It's not only the City of Charleston, but volunteer departments who are operating on little to no money. Cities and Counties do not want to spend tax payer money on an investment that provides no return, the Fire Service.
Tax payers don't wnat a tax increase, or will fight for a tax increase to support those who protect their lives. But will be the first to complain when the Big Red Truck does not show up as fast as they felt it needed to.
As for the Chief's, the tax payers get what they pay for. See the new truck, but there's no one trained properly and not enough personnel to do the job safely.
The next time your fire departments ask for the tax increase they need to protect you, as James Island residents did, please support them and give them the funds to protect you, your family, and your community.
Let's not let another Fire Fighter die because your goverment refused to give them what they needed.
I am sorry for the Charleston's loss, sorry their leadersip failed them, but glad that something positive can come out of all this for the firefighters in our areas.
Thanks Charleston Fire Fighters for all you do!
Posted by Paoa on May 16, 2008 at 1:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I point my finger at Rusty Thomas. He was in charge and there was a total failure at the command level. Some people are trying to make Thomas a heroic, martyr figure and he is nothing of the sort! Riley and Garvin and some others need to go too!!
Posted by archdude on May 16, 2008 at 1:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
bravecharleston9myspace
I will have my sister and brother-in-law double check that. He was one of Kelsey's good friends growing up in Washington.
As I recall Sugarland Memory Gardens between Plainville and Washington only allows the small stones that don't stick up above ground...you know, the type like the military often issues where a mower can mow over them.
I am sure that if this is the case, the good people of Washington will take up the cause to give their son a proper burial...and Charleston should fork up the cash as well out of the Mayor and Rusty's pay from last year!
Posted by kiteboarder on May 16, 2008 at 2:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It's clear why there were delays in releasing the city bought and paid for report. Sounds a lot like a state of the city address. The investigation conducted by federal officials is what we should focus our attention as we learn from the terrible tragedy that occured last June.
Posted by ColdBeer on May 16, 2008 at 2:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
archdude, Please let me know what you find out about the grave being unmarked. If this is really the case, and if it's a legitimate funding issue, I'm sure it can be fixed.
These are the types of things the P&C should be telling us, not finding out from post on their website.
Posted by archdude on May 16, 2008 at 3:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Coldbeer,
I have not found anything out yet, but he was a NAVY Vet from Desert Storm. If he does not have a marker, the VA should have issued one if requested (http://www.cem.va.gov/hm_hm.asp). As a vet, your grave should never go unmarked...it is one of your benefits.
I would have thought the firefighter's union would have done the same.
Posted by ColdBeer on May 16, 2008 at 4:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Either way, it needs to be fixed.
Posted by bravecharleston9myspace on May 16, 2008 at 4:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
archdude
THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH!!
I AM TALKING TO HER RIGHT NOW....I TOLD HER SOMEONE WOULD HELP....THERE ARE MANY WHO WOULD....HE SHOULD STILL BE HERE...... :o(....
Posted by bravecharleston9myspace on May 16, 2008 at 4:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
THE FAMILY IS NOT TALKING.....I DID NOT TELL GLEN...THAT'S WHY HE DID NOT KNOW.....BUT I GUESS SOMEONE COULD HAVE GONE OUT THERE AND FOUND OUT...
I LET HIS MOM KNOW I WOULD HELP HER.....WHEN I SAW IT BROUGHT UP....I DID NOT WANT HER BASHED FOR NOT HAVING IT ON THERE.....THAT IS WHY I CAME OUT ABOUT IT.....
SHE NEEDS HELP. :o(
THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR CARING.
never forgetting together,
missy
Posted by 1Recruiter on May 16, 2008 at 4:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am convinced the Rusty Thomas retirement was ONLY because of the report. It's rather sad that 9 people lost their lives. If Rusty Thomas was in the military, he would be court martial! Notice i didn't use the title chief.
Posted by bravecharleston9myspace on May 16, 2008 at 4:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I JUST REALIZED THAT I AGREED THAT....AT CALLING THE EX WIFE A NAME.....
I AM NOT AGREEING TO THAT....
SHE PAID FOR A LOT OF STUFF.....SHE PAID FOR EVERYTHING IN
INDIANA TO BURY HER EX HUSBAND!!!
YOU HAVE NO RIGHT ON BASHING ANY FAMILY OR EX FAMILY....
WATCH UR SELF...
Posted by rkelley48 on May 16, 2008 at 4:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well,,,,First I would have LOOKED around before putting myself in an untenable position. There were signs all over of the fire's intent. Blindly following someone is never good. But, sadly there is nothing that could be done in those final moments. Goes right back to the initial response and the actions taken. We depend on chiefs being in command watching and listening. Unfortunately, the Chief did neither.
Posted by MooMoo on May 16, 2008 at 5:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think Riley is also to blame. He is the Chief of the City - the fact that the fire department was so underfunded and understaffed is his cross to bear. Their blood is on his hands. too.
Posted by CedarPosts on May 16, 2008 at 5:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Many months ago I wrote about Captain Mark Davis' account of the fire that took the lives of 9 of his brothers.
http://cedarposts.blogspot.com/2008/02/i...
Let me tell you something, you can read the report, read all the P&C stories and watch all the news coverage, but until you have someone tell you first hand what happened the evening on June 18, 2007, you'll never understand the complete and total sense of lost our firemen have dealt with during the last 11 months.
I closely listened to Mark Davis, and while the retelling of what he told me is correct and mirrors the report, I have failed to capture the emotion and the heartbreak that has followed the wake of that tragic night.
I hope that more of Charleston's brave men and women will now speak up without fear of retribution or administrative reprimand.
Their story needs to be told and we need to listen and let them know we really do care.
Posted by BRAVEST on May 16, 2008 at 6:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
dadsemt and rkelly are as close to being right as i have seen here. Money means little to a fire, what it eats means the world. The chiefs spent too much time in the office and not enough on the basics. A nearly evacuated commercial structure with one victem is a two man search with two backups at the door. One attemt and its over, the job of surround and drown must commence. Only experience tempered with education has a place when your over your head in a fire. Whats sad is that the firefighters inside are waiting to be restrained and ordered to evacuate because the IC is their only eyes. Rustys failures are apparent both in the office he held and the fire that night. Ladder company's rule the out of control commercial job because they need to be fed by the engine's. Once Chief Garvin commited his first line companys to interior attack it was over. Ladders need space, space that was taken up by engine ops that had already failed. Rustys place was across the street with radio in hand. Not stretching lines for interior attack. His very image of doing so told others to go in as well. Thats how it happens on the fireground, one guy makes a mistake, it takes a strong leader to correct it. When the IC makes a mistake, his men pay. Shiny trucks, not needed. Larger diameter hose, would be nice. ISO rating's, only help the citys insurance rates. TRAINING is what was lacking across the board top to bottom. Bust your but when your not on call and it pays off. Company captians that are brutal educators and empowered to make changes are priceless.
Posted by aquaticorange on May 16, 2008 at 7:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Now you all see how bad it really was. Now you all know. Now you all can start circulating that recall petition...
Look at channel 2's website--City Council is MAD with the mayor.
Read the SC Code...
Riley's rump is going to be out of office with these games hes played in the past few weeks... months.
Posted by Thomas1776 on May 16, 2008 at 7:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Riley called the citizens of Charleston "peasants." And the peasants are grinding their axes. And they want Rileys head.
Posted by Thomas1776 on May 16, 2008 at 7:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
So this is the report Riley did not want to EVER release? What did Riley's lawyers have changed or removed from it?
Posted by Thomas1776 on May 16, 2008 at 7:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
archdude,
You have some real issues, dude. To much time on the computer.
Posted by bjp99 on May 16, 2008 at 7:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thomas...
I agree about Rocky D. Every time I have heard him say anything (I am a teacher and can't listen all the time)about Rusty, he was always backing him. I can't say that he hasn't come down on him, but I can't believe after all the crap he gave Dr. Goodloe, he has the nerve to stand behind Rusty (not that I agree with a whole lot she did either)... It's not about being a good person...it is about being a good leader and that he was NOT!
Posted by Puzzled on May 16, 2008 at 7:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Over and again, the man in charge is in denial when he says nothing could have been done different and no one will ever know what happened inside that store. He dismisses the "experts." He dismisses the computer models can tell exactly what happened in that building. Fires behave in certain and particular ways. Smoke coming from the ceiling tiles, puffing I believe, indicated a compartmentalized backdraft, meaning there was sufficient heat trapped in the ceiling of the store, when given sufficient oxygen, created the flashover.
Two things must happen now. One is moving the CFD forward. The other is to all the other departments in the area. Are you sufficiently staffed and trained to handle the next SSS fire? Are you sufficient staffed with inspectors to bring building code violators into compliance? Are you willing to take the political heat to enforce codes and issue tickets?
Town and City Councils, are you willing to bite the bullet and sufficient fund, staff and train your personnel to fight fire? All of that remains to be seen.
Citizens, are you comfortable with 5 fire fighters and two trucks as your first-in companies to handle a working structure fire? Do you honestly believe those 5 can handle command, rescue and suppression? Most firefighters die in residential fires.
NO MORE TAXES is the cry. Fine. Then shift your priorities. And ask North Charleston Council why they approved only one additional inspector when the department leaders were asking for sufficient firefighters to fully staff apparatus. Tough questions. P and C how about it?
Posted by Thomas1776 on May 16, 2008 at 7:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ARCHDUDE,
Accuse me of attacking and name calling?
THE FOLLOWING ARE SOME OF YOUR OWN NAME CALLING/ATTACKS/INSULTS:
""I do not know where she gets that I attack her day after day...I believe today is the first time I EVER posted a response to her. Perhaps I should call Dr. Phil---on second thought, she might be more of Jerry Springer's type of guest!"
""Did anyone else get a psychotic personal message in their e-mail from jca? What a piece of work?""
""it is clear jca has many, many issues that need professional help. I can only hope she seeks help from a clinical psychologist or, better yet, a psychiatrist. Her displaced anger, delusions, and other mental instabilities make her a person who could desperately use all the help they could get. Is she perhaps borderline on the dangerous side if provoked just a little?""
""Paranoid, Xenophobic, anti-government hatred reigns supreme on all these boards""
"" you are truly ignorant"".
""it really felt good after too many days of incessant ignorance being posted.""
"" Satire and sarcasm are apparently lost on many when it comes to this board ""
"" Where the hell does it say SPEED was a factor? You and your daily cohorts love to make up parts to these stories. I can tell from you and a few others why this area is as backwards and behind the times as it is.""
"" You have no sense of reality, do you?""
"" Hell, your word choice alone shows you are nothing more than a worthless POS.""
"" YOU DON'T SOUND SMARTER WHEN YOU TYPE IN ALL CAPS""
"" that post was clearly to show how the imbeciles who post daily would ""
"" Good grief, folks, I always know I am in South Carolina when I see just how many people have a failed level of reading comprehension. Bad education, bad drivers, poor social standards, pathetic newspaper posters, sad...""
"" If you don't like me saying how sick I am of the bozos constantly posting garbage...tough! ""
Posted by fireball1964 on May 16, 2008 at 7:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I grieve for the families of the 9 brave firefighters who lost their lives in this tragedy. I am a veteran of the fire service and know the value of training. I also know that from time to time the rank and file members of the department do not take the classes offered to them as seriously as they should. There is enuff blame to go around, so let's not try to put it all at the top. The members of this department need to now focus on how to make this tragedy not happen again.
As for the governing bodies that "should" regulate the actions of the department, please don't fool yourselves into thinking that they are the answer. The ISO is no more than a group who makes decisions based on what they think is in the best interest of the people they work for....the Insurance industry.
The real answer to the problem is watching out for each other, starting from the top to the bottom, following a good command structure, and learning to be proactive on new and improved techniques, rather than reactive.
God bless the men and women of the CFD, as well as all the men and women who put on the uniform to protect the citizens, wherever they may be!!!
Posted by walleyedwoman1215 on May 16, 2008 at 7:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't have children, but to even imagine the pain the mothers endure... first by losing their children and second by seeing, in black and white, that their dying cries were never heard. I would go out of my mind.
Posted by Thomas1776 on May 16, 2008 at 8:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
And there is more from "archpunk (dude)" ... ..
""You know, some of you folks are DEFINITELY MAKING SOUTHERN PEOPLE LOOK STUPID""
""please turn in your computer as you evidently are not smart enough to post""
"" your delusional mind""
"" blacks should not be allowed to drive""
"" dumb asses should not be allowed to post""
"" same jackasses bitching about how teens should not have a license.""
"" Please go get a life ""
"" You folks ... need of serious help.""
"" we should deny computer and internet access to those of you who want to deny everyone else certain things ""
"" you obviously can not use the tool wisely or productively""
"" You are a danger to yourself and others with your lack of thought, vision, and ability to squarely stick your head so far up your butt you need a glass stomach to see.""
"" Harpo, layoff ""
"" Constipation makes you grumpy.""
"" still bitching about what a legal driving age should be""
"" Are you actually an alias for Harpo?""
"" stop harping like a moron.""
"" HOW DO YOU MAKE A DIFFERENCE BEATING YOUR CHEST AND ACTING TOUGH HERE?""
"" people bitch daily and do nothing.""
**********************************There are hundreds of insults and attacks by Archdude. He needs to be banned from the Post and Courier. Clearly he is just another hypocrite who thinks he walks on water.
Bite me, Archpunk.
Posted by unit1 on May 16, 2008 at 9:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Do you think the problems are limited to CFD? Mullen has placed special unit officers who are not responsible for answering calls into patrol teams. The rosters for each patrol team show a large amount of officers, but the same number fall out after roll call each day that did 2 years ago. On some nights, for all 5 patrol teams you will have maybe 17 officers answering calls for an entire shift. MUSC puts almost as many officers per shift on duty on their campus as CPD does for the entire city. Will it take police officers getting killed in the city because they have no back up due to Mullen's lack of planning and just playing the numbers game on paper? If you look at Team 1 on the roster, there are over 40 people in the team but only about 21 people actually answer calls for 6 shifts. Pretty pathetic when you get robbed downtown and have to wait 20 minutes for an officer to show up because they are all tied up on other calls.
I am not trying to steal the thunder from CFD, some of those guys that died I knew and greatly miss them, but I am trying to point out that other city departments are also understaffed, and improperly trained. Most officers with experience saw through Mullen's paperwork tricks and left as soon as they could. Most of the patrol officers have less than 1 year of experience and need more experience to make good judgement calls. Do you really want somebody who doesn't know what they are doing to handle your severe accident or to try and prosecute a violent felony where you are the victim? This is what you get with Riley's policies. Before long he will be saying how Mullen "is the best police chief in all of the U.S." just like he said about Greenberg. Funny how things change, but Riley's comments stay the same (but with different names inserted).
I hope CFD can overcome these problems. Most of them are hard working with a strong sense of duty and want to do the best job they can. We just need to get rid of those who are damaging the city's departments and costing immense amounts of money to the taxpayers. As taxpayers we deserve better, as city employees we deserve better pay, training and competent leadership. Maybe if we replace Riley and our department heads then everyone wins.
Posted by cfdffwife on May 16, 2008 at 9:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
All the changes that the Charleston Fire Department has had to go through in these past 11 months have been extremely difficult. This is true whether you can't stand Rusty Thomas or the mayor or if you think they are both great guys. These changes will continue to be difficult for ALL of the men in our fire department and they need the support of the community right now as much as they did 11 months ago.
"Civilians"....When you walk by the stations or see them out in the community doing preplans, drills or getting something to eat for the stations at which they spend so many hours away from their families, wave and give them a smile. Remember that no matter what has been going on and will continue to go on, they protect you, your family and your property.
Although the reports that are coming out now are bringing to light some of the problems that they have been dealing with for many years, believe me when I say that this is the tip of the iceburg. It is evident how many people do appreciate our firefighters by the fact that around September 11, fire safety week in October, and Christmas, the stations are literally overwhelmed with the gracious outpouring of gifts and goodies, but just remember these guys deserve our gratitude all year long and they will especially need it in these upcoming months and the one-year anniversary of the day their lives changed forever.
Posted by archdude on May 16, 2008 at 9:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thomas
Try putting entire posts so the satire and sarcasm can be seen...a micro quote does not show what someone actually says. You are trying a sad political game.
Thomas, it looks like you spend too much time on the computer...now, before you try character assassination, please go back and quote complete posts...not Fox news edited tidbits to make your sound bites and talking points. Use context and reality, pal.
Posted by archdude on May 16, 2008 at 9:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
FYI Palmetto Man (good luck proving otherwise),
I really seem to have hit a nerve Mr. Thomas 1776. Your propaganda is fallacious and the misdirection you have spun it can be construed as libel little mr. Perhaps you should think before misquoting in such context. -or- well, you know what happened to you last time.
Posted by rkelley48 on May 16, 2008 at 11:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am continuing to read the phase 2 report. It reads that there were many involved in setting this tragedy up. From the building owners putting up slip shod buildings, no sprinklers fuel overloads, etc. The City for getting rid of the Fire Codes and inspections, these would have kept the doors unlocked. And, of course, the Chief. The nine paid the price of years of getting away with it. I can only hope that the CFD FFs stand up and demand better. Me? I'm going to learn from the 9. I am going to press every officer in my department to read the report.
Posted by Puzzled on May 16, 2008 at 11:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
As for those who are using this comment area to attack each other .... take it somewhere else.
Posted by a_set_love on May 17, 2008 at 12:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Mr. Riley, I hope you remember that a simple majority vote by city council can call for a special election ballot question on changing Charlestons form of government.
Its "State Law" Mr. Riley, you remember don't you.
What better timing than Novembers General Election, whilst everyone votes for a new president.
A change from strong mayor weak council, to strong council with a city manager or weak mayor.
Its coming Mr Riley, do you hear it in the wind, its the cries of the Charleston 9 demanding justice.
What better justice, after what you have done to them and Charleston, than to be made an empty figurehead.
The "Perfect Storm" approaches fast, Mr Riley and change is in its wind.
Posted by common_sense_is_where on May 17, 2008 at 12:55 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Does anyone else find it horrifically ironic that when the City wraps up the deal to buy the SSS site, the current owner, the one who chose to skirt all those codes and permits, may actually profit $1.85 million from this terrible tragedy?
Posted by BDatSFD on May 17, 2008 at 4:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
It seems to me that the owner of the property has a fair amount of liability in the deaths of our brothers. The property being purchased by the city should add money to the coffers which could be obtained in civil court for the families of the fallen. Since the property is an asset of the business, the owner should not be able to claim the proceeds of the sale as personal property. That should prevent him from hiding this money under the corporate umbrella. I'm not an attorney, but it seems that this could be a way to help make the property owner pay for his negligence and criminal disregard for safety.
Posted by vesta on May 17, 2008 at 1:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
BDatSFD: In terms of money, city=taxpayers. Therefore, by equation, the tax payers are going to be paying for the property owner's "negligence and criminal disregard for safety."
Posted by BDatSFD on May 18, 2008 at 12:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)
vesta: Yes and no. The taxpayers money will be involved in the purchase of the property, but they will at least have gotten a property of value in exchange for their financial outlay. The issue I was addressing is the concern posted by 'common sense is where' in regards to the property owner profiting from this situation. If the property owner sells the property for a profit to the city and is allowed to keep the proceeds, then he has indeed profitted from his negligence. If however those funds are recaptured through the courts, then the property owner not only does not profit, but he has a financial cost in the loss of his property of value.
Although I got down to Charleston for the service, I reside and work in the farthest corner of the country from you. I don't know all the intricacies of how things work around those parts, or what has transpired in regards to the business owners, the city and the property. I just wanted to toss out a suggestion in case someone finds it useful in keeping this gross neglince from being a profitable venture for the property owner.
Posted by lefrance2 on May 18, 2008 at 7:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
WELL I KEEP READING ABOUT THE STORE OWNERS SAFETY ISSUES IN THE BUILDING,BUT IF THE FIRE MARSHALLS WOULD DO THIER JOBS,THEY HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO SHUT THE BUSINESS DOWN UNTIL THE ISSUES ARE DELT WITH,I MEAN IF YOU WERE IN BUSINESS YOU WOULD DO THE SAME THING,BUT MOST FIRE MARSHALLS WON'T DO THAT BECAUSE THAT TAKES TOO MUCH TIME,TOO MUCH WORK,AND IT COST THE TOO MUCH MONEY THAT MOST BUSINESSES DON'T HAVE TO OUTFIT AN OLDER BUILDING.BUT HOW MANY LIVES IS IT WORTH FOR A FIRE MARSHALL TO DO THE RIGHT THING!
Posted by BDatSFD on May 18, 2008 at 3:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
True, the Fire Marshall seems to have been negligent in their duties. Whether it was because they do not have the necessary funding or were otherwise constrained by local politics, or whether they were just ineffective, sloppy, lazy or corrupt,I cannot know from where I sit. That is an issue that must be dealt with locally. That does not however relieve the building owner of their legal responsibility to follow the adopted fire codes.
I inspect businesses most shifts between alarms, training and other assorted duties, as do most firefighters in this country (to the best of my knowledge). While there are many businesses that try to avoid their responsibilities in regards to the fire codes, the majority of the businesses want to do the right thing and understand that meeting their legal obligation is an accepted cost of doing business. Those that are trying to avoid this expense are attempting to gain an unfair advantage in business at the expense of the safety of their employees and the community in whole.
While I am repulsed by those that use the tragic loss of our brothers to gain political advantage, it would be a shame to not use the current public awareness to bring a change to the community that would help prevent another loss of this type. If the avoidance of fire code obligations is widespread, then there needs to be a culture shift and there is no better time than now to bring about a significant change in this matter.
Posted by rkelley48 on May 19, 2008 at 8:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I have finished reading the report. I have gone from screaming at the computer to utter sadness. Each of the FF's were doing a job and they relied on others to do theirs. It is all so tragic. My heart goes out to the CFD. Stay strong through the one year anniversary. I can only hope that things get better for the FFs.
Posted by mmulkey on May 23, 2008 at 3:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The young widow of Capt/Coach Mulkey has not shown any respect from him as their is no grave stone on his grave and she is the owner. Her pledge to donate all the firemen fund money to a scholarship fund in his name was never done. The scholarship given was not what it should have been. She got very greedy when she learned she would receive around 450000 dollars TAX free, she then broke her promise and keep the money. I assume Her lawyer and father have advised her to sue for more money as the lawyer gets 40% and she gets the rest. They are not going after justice from the store owner but after the insurance companies money which doesn't effect the owner at all. Capt Mulkey had left the marriage about 3.5 months before his death. What a horrible joke.
Posted by eatmorecollards on May 24, 2008 at 5:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I was skiming through the Routley report specifically looking for the origen of the furniture in the SSS. I was wondering if it met American standards for funiture manufacture. Did I miss something? I also wonder why it wasn't mentioned that in the absence of LDH, 2.5 inch supply lines could have been doubled or tripled from the hydrant pumper to the attack pumper, acording to hydrant capacity, incresing the flow volume at lower pump pressures. I feel it important for departments reading the report that may still be using 2.5 inch supply lines to remember.
Posted by chiarism on May 31, 2008 at 12:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I partially agree with Art Wittners statement he said "the Fire Department now needs to move past the blame game and find a way to come together once again. "I don't want the city of Charleston Fire Department to hurt like it's been hurting," he said. "Let's start healing."
They do need to move on and start healing. BUT! how can you move on and heal when your working side by side with people you know made either stupid mistakes or flat out just didn't do something because they were afraid and some just didn't know what to do. Yet they go on day to day knowing their guilty but figuring no one else knows. Yes, guilt is a hard thing to live with especially when there are deaths involved but do you just brush it under the table like it has been?
No! you deal with it, that's how you make a better firefighter and it results in a better fire dept.There are a few other heads that should roll. What is the city waiting on these inept,careless guys are out there fighting fires with our family and friends, are we going to have to lose them because these few are in love with the title of firefighter but don't have the guts or the passion to do this job?