The Great Train Debate: Do numbers add up here?
Factors include total number of people, as well as population, workplace densities
The Post and Courier
About 18 million people live in metropolitan New York City, and on a typical day, they take about 7 million trips on subway and commuter railcars. Millions more in Chicago and other major league metro areas do the same thing.
Charleston? North Charleston?
When it comes to population, we're clearly in the minor leagues, which raises a key question in the debate over a commuter railroad: Are there enough people here to ride one?
A look at U.S. Census data and other demographic measures offers insights, though not much clarity.
About 450,000 people live in Charleston's urbanized area — which includes North Charleston, Mount Pleasant, Summerville and Goose Creek.
In comparison, Albuquerque, N.M., has about 600,000 in its urban area and is one of the nation's smallest cities to build a commuter rail system.
Our urban area also is smaller than Nashville's and Charlotte's, two cities with new rail systems. Those cities each have about 750,000 people.
On the other hand, if growth projections hold true, by 2030, the Charleston urban area should have nearly 600,000 people, nearly as much as Albuquerque does today.
Population density is another way to look at the issue, since mass transit generally makes sense when large numbers of people move from one population or employment cluster to another.
Overall, the Charleston urban area has about 1,833 people per square mile — a lower density than many areas with extensive passenger rail systems. Chicago, for instance, packs about 3,900 people into an average square mile.
But Charleston's urban density is higher than other cities with commuter and light rail systems, including Atlanta (1,783 people per square mile), Charlotte (1,745) and Nashville (1,740.)
A closer look at population density data also is revealing.
With the Atlantic on one side and rivers and wetlands shaping the other, Charleston's unique geography generally squeezes its population into corridors, especially along Interstate 26.
Some areas downtown and in North Charleston have population densities exceeding 10,000 people per square mile, twice as many as in some areas of New York City, while sections of Summerville exceed 3,000 people per square mile.
"Downtown Charleston already has the density to support commuter rail service," said Jennifer Humphreys, senior transportation analyst with Wilbur Smith Associates, a consultant heavily involved in Charleston-area road and rail projects.
Humphreys said density is less of an issue in Summerville because most riders would drive to park-and-ride commuter stations. Put another way, she said, the area around Summerville is like a giant catchment basin that can funnel commuters to park-and-ride lots. The size of the basin depends on the time people are willing to drive to the lots, usually about 15 to 20 minutes at most.
The Charleston metro area will grow even more densely populated in coming years, area planners believe.
In 12 years, overall density is expected to reach nearly 2,200 and continue to grow more dense after that, according to projections by the Berkeley-Charleston-Dorchester Council of Governments.
That kind of population density compares favorably with many cities with existing light rail and commuter systems, including Greater Boston and Pittsburgh.
Where people work also is an important variable.
Federal transit experts say that a downtown generally needs about 40,000 employees for commuter or light rail to be viable.
Charleston has about 41,000 people working downtown now, with about 50,000 expected to work there daily 20 years from now, according to Census Bureau records.
In the end, population and density statistics may not be enough to determine the feasibility of a train system here, Humphreys said.
It may make more sense to study travel behavior — where people want to go and at what times.
That means studying how many households are in an area and doing extensive surveys to find out where they work and how they get there. "It means finding out how many people are on I-26 sitting in traffic, and seeing if they would take a train," she said.
NEXT: Express Bus success
Reach Tony Bartelme at tbartelme@postandcourier.com or 937-5554.
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Comments
This article has 81 comment(s)
Posted by CharlestonJim on July 11, 2008 at 4:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Forgot everything you just read. Most people take public transport because they have too. A very rich person can barely afford to own a car and park it in NYC, then there is the fun of driving it around in traffic.
You see any middle class people waiting on a CARTA bus around town? The CARTA demo would be the train DEMO, and frankly, many do not want to stand by the CARTA demo on the way to work. Public transport adds time to your travels as well. While staying in England for a few weeks, I had to get up and be at the train station in Epping at 5AM to train into Piccidilly by 7AM. It is not an express train, people, it has to stop ALL THE TIME to let people on and off. Plus, it doesn't leave when you wnat it to leave and stop where you wnat it to stop.
I would love to have a train, really, but I would not rely on it and would feel like I was walking the streets of North Charleston at 2AM everytime I got on it.
You want less traffic and people on trains? There is only one way and the answer is simple, stick some tolls out on 26.
Posted by NativeSon on July 11, 2008 at 4:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I think an important aspect is being overlooked, that of tourists in hotels outside the downtown area. Having a lite rail system covering outside areas whould benefit not only workers in the downtown area who commute but also merchants because visitors do not have to spend hours looking for parking.
Posted by TheHawg on July 11, 2008 at 6:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't know guys, go to the K-mart parking lot in North Charleston one afternoon and watch how many people use the direct bus to MUSC and the surrounding hospitals. They carry several full loads of "Middle Class" people.
TheHawg
Posted by moonpie on July 11, 2008 at 6:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
ChasJim makes good points. This is exactly what I have wondered, do you see middle class riders using CARTA? I see half empty buses daily! Except for the MUSC link in North Chas Kmart, no you don't. It's used and was touted as a ride for the poor, people that couldn't afford a car (remember Sen Ford, Wendell and the others...?).
The other problem Jim brought up is one I have too, it adds tremendous time to your commute. I have a life after 5pm!
But Cold Beer said it best, Mayor Joe wants it, it's going to happen.
The article made some good points though, we have one (I-26 corridor) way in and one way out of Chas, North Chas, etc and that is the biggest problem.
After all he is the king pin in Charleston like it or not!
Posted by Riptide on July 11, 2008 at 7:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I read a while back that the US population (white) is near zero growth. So where is this increase of population coming from? Are we expecting more illegal aliens to populate this country and also the low country?
Posted by berthelot on July 11, 2008 at 7:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
CharlestonJim: People here do not use Carta because it is not a reliable system and because the buses are dirty. Most people in NY do not ride the bus. Rail is larger, more comfortable, and much cleaner (inside) than riding a bus. I think what you are really saying is for a rail system to work we may have to toughen up a bit and not arrive at our destinations at precisely the minute we wish to arrive. You think all of those people out there driving a Kia to their crappy job wouldn't rather sit reading and listening to an ipod as opposed to than fighting traffic, paying for gas, and making a car payment every month? People will adapt and give up the personal auto only when there is an acceptable alternative.
Riptide: The US population growth is much different than the projected growth of Charleston. We are growing at a much faster rate than the rest of the country, mostly because of increased tourist appeal (thanks to Riley). Check out Travel and Leisure magazine. On their "Top Cities in the US" list we rank # 4. 1. New York 2. San Francisco 3. Chicago 4. Charleston, SC.
http://www.travelandleisure.com/worldsbe...
How about that?
Posted by Spartan on July 11, 2008 at 7:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)
How about extend the Glenn McConnell and take a play out of the Maybank Highway playbook recently discussed? You have historic SC 61 for local folks, and the the new GLenn McConnell(limited access) all the way to the Ridgeville hwy 27 exit along I-26? This could even go down as low as Red Top or Ravenel. Mostly rural area with cheap if not free right of ways. Once our population gets closer to a million we might can do some rail that makes more sense. If something doesn't get started right away, the parking lot on I-26 wlll drive jobs out of this community to places that embrace not fight transportation solutions.
Posted by Charles_Town on July 11, 2008 at 7:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The times I travel to DC now, or when I go to San Diego, I use the metro and trolley. It is much nicer for getting around in those areas, than driving and struggling for parking. I think people would adapt eventually to use a mass transit system, but it would take a very long time for that mindset to become prevalent.
Posted by Riptide on July 11, 2008 at 8:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)
berth...
The automobile is here to stay and people will still make payments every month no matter what form of transportation they may take to go to work. The engine technology or the type of fuel may change in the coming years but this concept of packing people into commuter trains is not all that appealing to most people. I have used light rail, subways and street cars in the past. Being cram in there with people coughing in your face, sitting next to homeless people, bums, crazy street people, criminals and the mentally sick is not my idea of a relaxing trip to the office. I prefer to see these people from a distance and from my car not in my face in a commuter train.
Posted by Neponset on July 11, 2008 at 8:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Charlestonwatch.com has a discussion on this topic. It can be found in the blog section.
Posted by theronce on July 11, 2008 at 8:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I enjoyed the use of public transportation in some areas, but not all areas, that I visited. It can be cost effective if the population density is high enough. Around here, we cannot be cost effective with the buses, and we avoid car pooling. So I see a light rail as only a pie-in-the-sky tool for politicians to keep getting elected. AND, haven't you heard, the bicycles will now rule the roads in SC.
Posted by Riptide on July 11, 2008 at 8:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)
tripsa...
I’ve live in a lot of different cities in the past. Grant you some mass transit systems are better than some and some neighborhoods are better than others. All mass transit systems will pass through your worst neighborhoods and when they stop to pick up passengers from those neighborhoods, that is where the fun begins.
Posted by zekemire on July 11, 2008 at 9:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
As usual, the wrong parameters are used to justify light or heavy passenger rail service! It should not be about the density of population, what other cities have done, the so called diversity of the population, or, an overly optomistic projection of ridership! THE ONLY PARAMETER SHOULD BE IF WE DICIDE TO BUILD THIS TROJAN HORSE, HOW WILL IT BE SELF SUFFICIENT AND PAY FOR ITSELF WITHOUT A RAPE OF TAXPAYERS FOR SUBSIDIES!! We should not be trying to pile people on top of each other to increase density to a level of NYC, CHicago and others who mimic third world populations in some areas of the city, increasing drastically the crime rates and ethnic or racial problems when you try to force one population into a relationship with others just for the code word, DIVERSITY!
Posted by Riptide on July 11, 2008 at 9:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Tripsa...
I’m sure the underground rail for congress is great for our elites in Washington since they don’t have to put up with the rift raft.
Posted by Charles_Town on July 11, 2008 at 9:09 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Since there seems to be little talk of including Moncks Corner in the rail system, I wont use it, but like CB hopefully it will be very successful and mean less traffic for me.
Posted by common_sense on July 11, 2008 at 9:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Zeke is dead on. As I said yesterday, no mass transit system in this nation, save maybe NYC (due to sheer size of ridership), operates in the black. They are not designed to. Tranist is designed to opearte in the red, so they can receive more & more subsidies from the gov't (from us taxpayers). "Riley's Folly", as I will now refer to this rail discussion, is no different.
I'm just sayin...
Posted by vicupstate on July 11, 2008 at 9:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)
When gas is $5, $6, $7 a gallon, the rail alternate is going to look VERY appealing to many that dis it on here now.
A clean, reliable, system (and there's NO reason to believe it CAN'T be that) that has frequent departures would be successful over time. The tourist base and geographic influences definitely make that more likely too.
Buses have a stigma that is hard to shake, so comparisions between buses and rail are really oranges and apples.
Posted by grae on July 11, 2008 at 9:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
With the cost of gas rising and the fact that it is, in reality, a non-renewable resource, we HAVE to find other modes of transportation. That's it. It doesn't matter if you've been bothered by trains in the past, or had poor experiences with CARTA, its just a plain and simple truth that we Will have to find other means of getting from point A to point B. There was a time when people could set their watch by the train. It was the most efficient system in the United States because it was necessary to the growth of our nation. Once we realize that the majority of us are in need of fast, clean, efficient and timely modes of transportation that don't require a quickly depleting and costly fuel resource, the system will grow to fit our needs. In the meantime, we'll have been at the forefront of city modernization and by the time gas hits $10 a gallon, we'll already have viable alternatives set into place. Why wait until the last minute when we know what to do now?
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 9:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Like Dylan said, "Times are a Changing", yet people in this area are not known to be forward thinking. Being proactive and forward thinking could save money and problems 10 years down the line.The fact is that gas is not a renewable resource and the population is growing at an exponential rate and drilling in Alaska is not going to solve the long term solution. The thought of SC being progressive? I will not hold my breath though
Posted by common_sense on July 11, 2008 at 9:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
vic, tourists aren't going to travel much outside of the Downtown core. Certainly not to N. Chas or Summerville, so the tourist argument is out the window. Geography of the area goes against rail, with all the bodies of water & marshes in the area.
A comment was made by someone stating the Middle Class people who don't use CARTA now won't start using them in the future is accurate.
"Riley's Folly" is quickly shaping up to be a boondoggle. What the area needs is another multiple laned East-West highway, to move people in & out efficiently, especially in hurricane season.
I'm just sayin...
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 9:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)
tripsa
"I want my car!"
Yes thinking about just yourself, it's the American, no, the republican way.
Posted by jimisle on July 11, 2008 at 9:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm a NY transplant. I use I26 to commute the 21 miles to my job in North Charleston everyday, and it takes me about 35 minutes in "normal" traffic conditions. In NY, that same trip would take me about an hour in heavier (though not necessarily the heaviest) traffic. Taking public transportation the same distance in NY can take up to 2 hours. I know because I did it everyday for years. People in NY ride various forms of transit for a variety of reasons including cost (parking in Manhattan can be up to $20 per hour), and convenience. And the key word here is convenience.
If Charleston is to develop any form of rail, it should only be in conjunction with the existing bus system(s). Otherwise no one will ride it. In the meantime, a good faith effort by regional planners might be to increase service (schedules and stops) on the CARTA express buses in order to get an idea about any future transportation plans. This could be done in conjuction with widening I26 (an HOV lane?) and improving transfer times to and from CARTA local buses.
Further, some questions need to be addressed and acted on. In particular, what percentage of commuters in Summerville/North Charleston actually work downtown? If it's less than half, where do they work? If commuting patterns are dispersed over a wide area then perhaps a larger network of express buses actually operating during peak and off peak hours will be better.
Posted by Riptide on July 11, 2008 at 9:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
guide...
Limousine liberals love their cars just as much as republicans. The only difference is that the limousine liberals would like to force us into mass transit schemes when it is not necessary.
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 10:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
By the way I would like to introduce my self to your little blog group. I will be popping in with my two cents worth ever now and then. I believe in the common good, using reason to solve problems, and being proactive to solve problem. I also believe in fiscal responsibility, which really doesn’t make me a liberal, though people views this far Reich State, excuse me, far right State differ dramatically from mine. Excuse me but I have to get back to work, I am not retired military with nothing else to do but blog all day. I am sure that I will be popular.
Posted by marriott99 on July 11, 2008 at 10:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I don't believe that future use of personal vehicles will be restricted due to the efforts of the "leftist" ecologists, but to the fact that gas will become prohibitively expensive due to mideast turmoil and the fact that we haven't developed our domestic energy resources, including oil, wind, solar, etc.
Light rail along I26 with stations at the exits and plenty of free parking, and extending to Columbia, although ridiculously expensive, I know, seems to be a sound investment for the future.
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 10:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Riptide
"Limousine liberals love their cars just as much as republicans. The only difference is that the limousine liberals would like to force us into mass transit schemes when it is not necessary."
Frankly, in the Southeast, with the sprawl and everything, there is little option but to drive. If i had other options I would use them. There is no alternative but to drive.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted by zoomru on July 11, 2008 at 10:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This is not "Riley's Folly" its his ...RAPING!! Any solution for Charleston's "forward thinking" citizens must solve more than ONE problem. This propaganda that the POST is "reporting" concerns only one issue...transporting commuters fom Summerville to the Magnolia Project or Visitors Center. (Where is the diagram showing the proposed "LAYOUT" at??) Any solution should try to MOVE as many people as possible...commuters, school kids, tourists, Beach "BUMS" and early morning Paper, mail and package delivery.
SKYTRAN (or something similar) is a form that should be afforded HEAVY consideration.
What makes Charleston DIFFERENT??
What is CARTAs fuel budget? 350K per month?
What is the schools fuel budget per month??
What major infrastructure in needed for RAIL vs Skytran?
What is the TIME required to have a RAIL vs SKYTRAN system operational??
What has more revenue streams from advertisement? 1 or 2 RAIL cars or thousands of SKYTAN "trolleys"??
Look at the number of huge power poles and billboard masts along OUR roads already. They could serve more than ONE use??
We need to think totally different to solve our transportation issues. South Carolina should continue to embrace "Low Density" developement and streamline energy production, school bussing, public transit, and tourist "DRAW" to integrate ONE statewide transportation buildout.
SKYTRAN is a serious possibility.....
http://www.unimodal.com/PlaySkytran.html...
I'm just Forward Thinkin'............
Posted by patricycle77 on July 11, 2008 at 10:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I was out of work yesterday so I'm a day behind. My longer post is linked to yesterday's story. Zeke - you should check it out for a legal correction.
BUT, without addressing topics I addressed yesterday, I wanted to correct Berthelot. Carta is reliable and clean. I ride it nearly every day. I am middle class and white (gasp). Other non-scary, sober, well dressed citizens also ride the routes I happen to take. The availability of routes is limited b/c they assess the number of riders and if enough people don't ride, they discontinue or decrease frequency of the route. I ride the 10 or the 11 from DT towards North chuck nearly every day and it is PACKED. They often have a bus following for overflow.
And without getting into my reasoning (see yesterday's article) I support the commuter train.
Posted by pompusmaximus on July 11, 2008 at 10:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
You may love your car and you may not want to listen to people who support multiple transportation options. However, you will have a different negotiatiing partner 10 years from now when fuel prices are astronomical. That partner is called reality.
By allowing this commuter rail system to develop, it will spur development with higher density. Suburban sprawl, coupled with hyperindividualism, is the reason we drive so much in the first place. We should support walkable, bikable, transit oreinted neighborhoods now while we have the resources to build them. If we wait another 10 to 20 years we may not have the ability to pave a road, much less build a commuter rail.
Posted by common_sense on July 11, 2008 at 10:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Guidedbystewart, likely a reference to the Daily Show (Lord help us!), clearly won't be liking his stay down here.
Thankfully, once you get to Summerville in 38 minutes, it's not much further to I-95. From there, he/she/it can easily access many points north.
I'm just sayin...
Posted by patricycle77 on July 11, 2008 at 10:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
it costs $1.25 for a one way ride ($2 for an express fair). you can buy bulk rides also. I got the 35 rides for $40. It is well worth it for me.
p.s. I have a car. I choose to use the bus.
Posted by zoomru on July 11, 2008 at 10:44 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Patricycle77 and Tripsa....
Which one would you rather ride if you COULD?
A rail commute from station to station or SKYTRAN from subdivision to Marion Square..NON-STOP??
Posted by zoomru on July 11, 2008 at 10:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
That's right POMPUS, say hello to SKYTRAN "then" ....SO why not build it NOW ?!
Posted by wjhamilton3 on July 11, 2008 at 11:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Just back from New York. The Busses were clean, well used and an important part of their transit system. Generally you use busses to go East West in Manhattan and the Subway to go North South. We had great results using a $25 unlimited 7 day Metro Card. The new Flyer busses in New York carry over 100 passengers and bend in the middle. The drivers were pleasant and we met lots of people on the bus. The M23 Bus allowed us to get off the Subway at stations anywhere along that street and take the bus to the front door of the Apartment building we were staying at.
We ride CARTA here as well. Busses are running on time, drivers are friendly and the system has seen ridership increase 17% over the past year (as of Spring). The next quarter is going to be even higher. The Express Bus running in from Mt. Pleasant is full every morning and all those cars parked in the Kmart parking lot in Mt. Pleasant are the Park and Ride for that line.
Gas is going to keep going up. China, Brazil and India will be putting millions of more cars on the road in the next 20 years. We'll be bidding against them for fuel. We'll need functional transit to compete and support dense development near our transit lines. We saw two huge condo towers going up on Coney Island full of Million Dollar apartments, in part because you could live near the beach and walk across the street to the subway (which is above ground on Coney).
If Charleston can't compete for talent, jobs and investment with areas that have transit, we'll be roadkill.
Posted by patricycle77 on July 11, 2008 at 11:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I think SKYTRAN if I were at Epcot, but from a realistic perspective I still suggest the train.
I would say that I am an equal fan of function and design, but from what little I know of SKYTRAN it is aesthetically unpleasing, obtrusive, and doesn't seem to be a tested and proven form of transportation. "Critics of SkyTran say there are no known independent engineering analyses of the project, that Malewicki [the inventor] has no experience building large-scale civil engineering projects, and that UniModal has yet to produce any test projects nor signed any contracts to build the system." It appears like it wouldn't be viable for long distances (and for short distances I just assume ride a bike or walk) and certainly wouldn't work once you entered the city. To Marion Square? What corridor would this travel down? King? Meeting? The spatial resources are not there. I certainly appreciate a progressive approach, but why haven't any cities adopted this concept since its inception since 1990? Not even densely populated progressive cities? Please correct me if other cities have tried this b/c like I said, I am not very familiar with SKYTRAN. If it truly is economically viable, environmentally friendly, and genuinely achievable, I wouldn't be against considering it.
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 11:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I am Southern male, born and breed, so was my parents and so was there parents, so as I see it, I have just as much right to this State as anybody. I have friends with similar views as mine and they are not John2q (and I am not this person, sorry tripsa). There are actually forward thinking people from this State, who would have thought?
Damn I am already popular, I knew it!
I'm just saying....
Posted by a_set_love on July 11, 2008 at 11:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I've finally figured out who zoomru is, its a desprited Mr. Riley, mayor of The City of Charleston.
(off his meds)
Posted by Lovely_One on July 11, 2008 at 11:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"driving a Kia to their crappy job"
Gasp, someone is watching me...Lol! You got my car and job description down to a tee!
Posted by drdcrimj on July 11, 2008 at 11:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
wjhalimton3 is right on. We don't need more study. That's what wrong with government. Just build to thing and they will use it. The CARTA Express from NC to downtown is a Godsend. What started as a dribble of people on one bus for each run is now two buses on each run packed to the doors with people often standing. It surely has helped us. Most of the people on it are the "middle class" others speak of, but some even UPPER "middle class". IT WORKS.
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 11:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Corrrect you are Coldbeer, for now...
Then wait until gas is $10 dollars a gallon or 20 dollars a gallon? The infill of N. Charleston is a reality (people will have no other option but to live close to work) and then it will cost us 10 times more money for the same project. But are children will be dealing with this problem, not us.....right?
Posted by Lovely_One on July 11, 2008 at 11:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)
tripsa,
Who says you will have to give up your car if they get a rail system? I didn't know that was a requirement.
Posted by common_sense on July 11, 2008 at 11:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by pompusmaximus on July 11, 2008 at 10:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
*edit*
Suburban sprawl, coupled with hyperindividualism....
----------------------------------------------------------
Hyperindividualism?
One of the greatest traits that shaped our nation. What a shame some want to throw that away in the name of "the common good".
The jackbooted thugs have arrived, I see....
I'm just sayin...
Posted by Riptide on July 11, 2008 at 11:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Guide…
Reich state??? I take it you’re a big lib. So if some one disagrees with you or don't want to support you we're all Nazis?
We live in a country where we have choices to make. If you choose not to drive an automobile but instead take public transportation or a bicycle that is your choice. Don’t ask some one else to support you or your means of transportation.
Posted by vicupstate on July 11, 2008 at 11:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Common Sense --
So NONE of the MILLIONS of tourists stay in North Charleston hotels? Given the higher prices of DT hotels, I'm sure many do. Do NONE of the convention center visitor's in N, Chas. not head DT for dinner or sightseeing?
The rivers and waterways (because bridges are expensive and therefore rare) channel traffic into a small number of corridors in which to cross the waterways. This INCREASES the success of rail because rail requires linear, dense development. That is one reason why the Charleston density is higher than a typical southern city, even in areas outside the historic district.
Posted by common_sense on July 11, 2008 at 11:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Trip & Rip:
Don't feed the troll.
I'm just sayin...
Posted by wesman on July 11, 2008 at 11:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Looking to the future, a lite rail system could only help this area. I've lived in Europe twice, using buses and rail takes some getting use to, but the benefits are plenty. If there could be a concerted effort throughout the low country to get these public systems to link together that would be better still. Example, our last time in Germany we had season tickets to the Frankfurt Galaxy American Football team. Those tickets allowed us to ride from our town, nearly 40 miles away to the stadium via, train, subway, lite rail or bus, two hours prior to and after the game. I could drink and watch the game and not worry about driving or parking. Bottom line it would help the local economy grow as long as it could be expanded on later.
Posted by Riptide on July 11, 2008 at 11:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)
$10 a gallon?
If the automobile were a dinosaur and a meteor dropped from the sky or should I say all the oil wells dry up, then yes mass transit, bicycles, horses, and shoe leather express would be our future. But we as a people and a country will find other means of technology and sources of cheap energy, to run and fuel our automobiles if only our liberal government will only get out of the way. The automobiles are here to stay and I don’t care what those fruit loops and environmental nut cases would like us to do. This is America not the Socialist States of America.
Posted by Lovely_One on July 11, 2008 at 11:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)
tripsa,
I did not look at it that way.
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 11:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)
ya wol! Heir Riptide!
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 11:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Fix problem when it is a big problem = more money
fix problem before it's a problem = less money
... and republicans say they are fiscal conservatives?
Posted by Riptide on July 11, 2008 at 11:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)
guide...
unable to support your position or yourself? Don't worry your trust fund or welfare check is in the mail. Have a nice day.
Posted by jeff61 on July 11, 2008 at 11:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
zoomru,
You sure do have an obsession for this SKYTRAIN. In fact I don't think you ever made a post without the word SKYTRAIN in it. Do you work for SKYTRAIN? What exactly is this SKYTRAIN you are so passionate about? I tried going to the web site but it did not come up. I would like to know more about it and maybe I can share your enthusiasms about it.
A man becomes preeminent, he's expected to have enthusiasms....enthusiasms...enthusiasms...
What are mine?
What draws my admiration?
What is that which gives me joy?
SKYTRAIN
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 11:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
tripsa,
You don't need someone elses word to show your self center, you do it just fine with all of your other blogs.
By the way, I really love the name calling, so 3rd grade!
Posted by Riptide on July 11, 2008 at 12:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Guide…
I don’t have a problem being label a right wing conservative Christian. I believe in God and a representative government, govern by a constitution and a bill of rights. I believe in the free enterprise system know as capitalism. What I don’t understand is that you liberals can never be honest yourselves or the people around you. Is there something embarrassing about being called a socialist besides all the failures and misery you people have brought on to humanity?
Posted by Riptide on July 11, 2008 at 12:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
tripsa...
If you count a trillion seconds and go back into human history, it would take you back before the beginning of civilization well into the caveman period. Liberals are not cheap to have around.
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 12:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Well let me clarify things.....
I know that all of you guys already have me labeled, but
I think for myself and I am not a ditto head for one particular party. I could clarify, but it is almost my lunchtime!
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 12:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
but I know you guys think in black and white, Socialist or capitalist but my viewpoints are not that simple. So if you want to label me a socialist, so be it, again I belive in a common good but not handouts. What more christain than that? Lunchtime!
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 12:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
riptide...
you had throw the religion thing in there,
talk about the misery of humanity!
Posted by allaneddie on July 11, 2008 at 12:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The bus is much more flexible than a train.
Bus routes, not being dependent on a track, can be more easily changed depending on demand in an area, population.
I can't believe that a bus system serving the same number of people will ever cost nearly as much as a train.
The train that is being proposed will serve a limited area, with those of us who have no access to it or use for it will be subsidizing it with our tax money.
Let the Charleston mayor get an HO set to serve his train lust.
Posted by Riptide on July 11, 2008 at 1:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
guide...
I don’t a problem admitting that I’m a Christian but you have a problem admitting to the socialist doctrine. No doubt people have been killed in the defense of Christianity or Christianity has been used to justify their ends, but to compare it to socialism in the last century you guys are light years ahead.
Posted by jeff61 on July 11, 2008 at 1:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Posted by Riptide on July 11, 2008 at 1:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
guide...
I don’t a problem admitting that I’m a Christian but you have a problem admitting to the socialist doctrine. No doubt people have been killed in the defense of Christianity or Christianity has been used to justify their ends, but to compare it to socialism in the last century you guys are light years ahead.
What the hell does this have to with a train?
Posted by FindingMyself on July 11, 2008 at 1:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Riptide: our government is liberal? Wow, didn't know that!
As to the article... I was wondering if anyone else had thought of the gas prices thing. I guess the rest of you have $60+ to throw away to fill up your tank, but personally I would love to be able to use that money elsewhere.
Posted by Riptide on July 11, 2008 at 2:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Jeff…
My fault for getting drawn into a dead end argument with a troll.
Finding…
So our congress is control by conservatives? Okay?
Your solution is not to drill or build more fuel efficient cars or develop new technologies but to cram people into mass transit systems and operate in the red?
My solution is just widen the lanes and control the growth in this area and everything will be okay. But allow these politicians to spent money like drunken sailors , then you'll have all kinds of problems.
Posted by pompusmaximus on July 11, 2008 at 2:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)
For those of you who are hell bent on having the automobile dominate all aspects of our society, let me ask you this. When you drive past all the huge McMansion subdivions, all the cheesy strip malls, all of the tacky signage, all of the giant Shopping centers and all of the oversized parking lots, do you feel that this is the ideal kind of development? Do you not desire for walkability? do you not desire an increased sense of beauty, community and civic pride?
People used to be proud of their towns and invested heavily in them. People would support local businesses and retain local traditions and customs that made the town unique. Honestly what in suburbia is there to be proud of? Do you see people painting Wal-marts the way 19th century artist painted the American landscape? We need to get back to this kind of living. Locally produced food, more walkable compact development and a stronger sense of community. A place where you can own a car but not HAVE to rely on it for everyday neccesities. This is the way are forefathers did it and it is what we should continue to do.
Posted by Skipper on July 11, 2008 at 2:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It's great to see so many new "faces" commenting on this topic today. By my count, of all those that posted, there are 4 that are deadset against any form of transit, and everyone else is either for it or open minded enough to consider it. Interesting...
For the poster that thinks "jack-booted thugs" are going to take away his precious car: if we could only be so fortunate, I'd pay good money to watch that! Get real, would ya? What we're talking about here is giving people options so that THEY can choose what's best for THEM. You choose your car, others choose to bike or walk, and others still choose transit. Isn't THAT what America is all about, freedom of choice??? As it is now, you MUST own a car, and that in my book is being controlled by the oil and auto companies. Where's the freedom and liberty in that?
I also have to agree with the idea that "hyperindividualism" is one of several defects with our society. Here's a little test: If those of you who so adamantly oppose transit and believe in "hyperindividualism" are Christians, then how can you justify your positions? Jesus' final commandment to us: "Love one another." By thinking of only yourself, you are certainly failing to live up to that commandment. But hey, that's YOUR choice!
As for passenger rail, there seems to be some serious misunderstanding as to what's being proposed versus what is being discussed. There are 4 types of passenger rail: Commuter Rail on existing tracks using diesel locomotives (Nashville, North Carolina, Charleston's proposal), Heavy Rail on grade separated tracks using an electrified third rail (Chicago's L and NY's subways), Light Rail transit using overhead electric wires operating at street level in mixed traffic (Dallas, TX & Portland, OR) and Streetcars on dedicated tracks in streets to move people short distances. The last type, streetcars, were very prominent in CHARLESTON during the 1920s-1940's. In fact, the rails in some instances are still visible around the Market. Most of the rails were still exposed in the 1980’s before they were either removed or asphalted over. In addition there is also intercity passenger rail like Amtrak with is the same basic train set as commuter rail, and high speed rail which doesn't really exist in the US.
Each of these different systems requires different infrastructure on which to run and has different feasibility ranges. Commuter rail does not require "high density" (~7 units/acre) to be feasible as people drive to the station near their home and it generally travels distances of about 30 miles. Whereas, Light Rail serves no more than a 15 mile distance and requires fairly high density (13+ units/acre) with both park-ride and walk-up stations. Commuter rail requires a feeder bus system to move you on to your final destination, but light rail typically drops you within a comfortable walking distance of your destination. Light rail is NOT commuter rail. Big difference!
Posted by PalmettoDP on July 11, 2008 at 2:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I moved back to SC at the first opportunity because I was tired of my "progressive" California taxes. In that light, I am happy that SC isn't as "progressive" as some other areas.
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 2:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)
skipper,
standing ovation!
Though I am not sure a train system would work, accessible public transportation of some type need to be an option, and with gas prices going up and with it continuing to clime we really need to dicuss all of our options. Other than comments about raising taxes, 3rd grade name calling and so on, few of you have any solutions. Look, most working people, which I am, don't like there taxes increased, (i will say the middle class carries most of the burden, but that is a topic for another discussion). Long term planning for solutions will be the only way we to deal with these near future problems. Last, I all for individualism, but the hyperindividualism that is currently rampant is very much a detriment!
I'm just saying..
Posted by SmooveB on July 11, 2008 at 2:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Good recent comments. The "hyperindividualism" comment was nonsense. Perhaps "rugged individualism"- a belief not only in personal liberty and self-reliance, but also in free competition- balanced with the needs of the commonwealth. Think John Wayne's characters, several of whom were railroadmen.
"Hyperindividualism" is atomistic and me, me, me. It's about privatizing gain, and publicizing risks- which is how we've gotten ourselves into our current fiscal mess(es).
Streetcars/trolleys in Charleston. They might work again with the density and fuel costs. I mean, there's no way they'd work out in the 'burbs, such as a trolley from Mt. Pleasant to, oh, say Sullivan's Island. That would be too much of an engineering challenge, right? ;-)
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 2:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I also commend pompous, there is inteligent life!
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 2:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
many of the comments are about me me me me me.
just an observation!
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 2:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
right on SmooveB!
Posted by pompusmaximus on July 11, 2008 at 3:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm certain skipper must work for some kind of consulting firm. He is way too knowledgeable to be just a concerned citizen.
Anyway, for those of you who think the suburbs are impossible to retrofit, take a look at this consulting firms website. They are proving that the suburbs are not beyond help.
www.doverkohl.com
Posted by clemtiger10 on July 11, 2008 at 3:23 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Riptide, controlling growth is not really a viable solution if you are think of it in the aspect of building less residences (I would rather support a growth b. That would be cutting of the people who will still want to move here and hinder free market. That surely mirrors the general theme of socialism that you hate soo much. I don't understand why many americans can't see that no country can survive off of pure capitalism becuase that is just as radical a proposition as communism. Some level of moderation is always needed for a good economy with room for upward mobility for the lower-class. After all, isn't that potential for upward mobility something that is supposed to be characteristic of this country.
Back on topic... Rail is a solid invesment for the future mainly due to the fact that there is not enough room to widen the roads much more and people will never stop moving here. Better to do things now before right-of-ways, land costs, and setup costs in general get to be prohibitive. Driving will surely get to be a major problem if this is not addressed now.
Posted by zoomru on July 11, 2008 at 5:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Ladies and Gentlemen.... For the record, I'm NOT H... bent on SKYTRAN or SKYTRAIN ! Really..I'm not. What Galls me the most is the fact that we as commentors are weighing diffrenent PROs and CONs with different forms of what is getting ready to be SHOVED down OUR throats with more HONEST "gusto" than any of the so called "movers and shakers of our area"!. Before we start ripping up and confiscating right of weigh; OUR leaders need to know that they need to look out for our future passengers as much as their lobbyist developers. Any right of weigh that will require land that is NOW in private hands will need to be considered differently. A "royalty" on top of fair market value should be paid. Whether is 2 cent a passenger or 10 cent; WHY should someone be forced to "Sell" when its developers that will reap rewards from both the land the rail its accessing or the passengers coming in to SHOP at their HUB shops?? We as cictizens need to force every means to be considered instead of just "what other cities do"! If we decide on RAIL in any form...WILL a separate Ravenel type bridge need to be built?? Is this really just about getting a new station for AMTRAK in the MAGNOLIA project section of the NECK?? There is going to be serious land swapping going on??
People come here and stay here because we are not HIGH DENSITY....we need to focus on ANY transportation system that promotes LOW DENSITY. Anybody from the north,...your welcome any time; but just remember why you came here. LEARN from the mistakes that have previously been made. Just because entrenched self centered types arm-twist and use this paper to hypnotise US ..doesn't mean it is the RIGHT thing to do.
Just look at the incinerator and Bees Ferry Landfill; they both need to be closed with today's technology but dirty cash seems to be outweighing the public good. More jobs and tax revenue will be created but does the public KNOW?...
Rail may be ONE piece of the puzzle ...BUT we all know that with the areas strengths and weaknesses...ITs NOT the best answer for the tax paying public.
Posted by zoomru on July 11, 2008 at 5:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I want my CAR to sound like that JETSON..RIDE!!
Posted by aptlytitled on July 11, 2008 at 5:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You know, some of you are so eager to spew xenophobic feces that you don't even use logic.
The Charleston area is not growing because of all the illegals (Riptide), it's because people do this thing called move to another area that they like.
I don't mind differing points of view, but it would be nice to have a decent discussion. I'm not done yet... all you people tryin to call pro-railers "socialists". Ridiculous. Jesus help us.
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 6:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes, Yes, let's exploit as much of natural resources possible so that we can really screw up this world for the next generations to come! It is this kind of selfishness that will be this to it's downfall. When Sullivan's Island is under water, how will they perceive these exploitive policies?
Posted by guidedbystewart on July 11, 2008 at 6:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
tripsa,
by the way, look up the meaning of sociopath? Let's see who is really crazy here?
Posted by clemtiger10 on July 11, 2008 at 8:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)
tripsa,
Russia drilling offshore will have short economic benefits for them, investing for a life after oil (since it is not a renewable source of energy) is really the responsible action for the long term. Americans have the chance to be early adopters to this change and profit from it as we have from electricity, the first automobiles, and computers (just to name a few of our innovations). Are we too blind to see this chance when there is a definite moment on the horizon in which there will only be a trickle of oil left to pump out of the ground? I hope not. Opportunity knocks, lets be smart and drop oil (since the automotive industry won't bite on the opportunity, mass transit is the solution).
Posted by auger on July 12, 2008 at 8:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
clemtiger10,
The liberals won't let us drill for oil on our own land because it is BAD! They won't let us build new nuke plants because they are BAD! They won't allow us to put up wind farms because they are BAD! They won't allow us to construct Solar farms, because they are BAD! What magic , yet undiscovered, power source are we supposed to be driving towards?
Posted by wucherer on July 18, 2008 at 12:29 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Increasing population, pollution, crime and gas prices. We taxpayers all need to thank our politicians because without their greedy thirsty need to fill their empty souls with our hard earn money and we just freely give what they want and we obey. While names like liberals, democrats, republicans, independents, etc.... names to distract the real purpose and divide americans from each other. We might have different of options, values but yet we fight among ourselves while the soul-less greedy suits suck the very life from our own souls nothing will ever fill their bottomless pit but to pay their due to pit.