Charlotte finds light-rail success
Lynx draws riders, and property values along the tracks are going up
By David Slade
Video
Charlotte Light Rail
Charlotte's light rail system - The Lynx - started its operation in November and cost the city $463 million.
Provided
A Charlotte Lynx train pulls into a station on the Blue Line, a $463 million electric light rail system that started operating in November.
The Post and Courier
Workers raise one of two trolleys in February 2006 that had been joined and used as a home by Edatha Varner and her late husband, Jake, in 1938. Rail advocates hoped the trolleys could be restored and used as part of a rail system.
The Charlotte Lynx: www.charmeck.org/Departments/CATS/LYNX/home.htm
Charlotte's historic trolley: www.charlottetrolley.org
What is light rail?
Light rail refers to passenger rail cars that typically make frequent stops within an urban area. The trolleys of the 1930s would be considered light rail. Modern light-rail cars can operate individually or as short trains, and are usually powered by overhead electric lines. Light-rail tracks can share a right of way with other vehicles, such as the old Charleston trolleys that ran down Rutledge Avenue.
CHARLOTTE — The Lynx arrives quietly, rolling on seamless rails that will carry about 6,300 people on this weekday morning from park-and-ride lots on the outskirts of the city to jobs downtown.
The Lynx is an electric light-rail system that started running in November and quickly exceeded ridership predictions. Near many of the 15 stations along the 9.6-mile line, new condominiums and other buildings are under construction, and property values are rising fast.
In Charleston, proponents of light rail and streetcars point to Charlotte as a success story and a model to consider.
Lisa Traylor works in Charlotte's banking district and enjoys reading a book on the Lynx Blue Line instead of sitting in traffic. She leaves her car in a free park-and-ride lot, saving money on gas and even more on downtown parking.
"I figure I'm saving $2,400 a year," she said. "It's about the same amount of (commuting) time, but it's less hassle."
Like a traditional trolley, the Lynx is powered by overhead electric lines, and it does not share the rails with freight trains. Its tracks are separate from the street, but if not for old-fashioned streetcars, the modern Lynx would not exist.
Charlotte closed down its original electric streetcar system in 1938, in favor of buses. Charleston did the same.
Nearly 60 years later, a Charlotte non-profit group put a restored trolley called Car 85 back in service, and its popularity was credited with helping to revitalize part of the city. The city later rebuilt and extended the tracks used by historic Car 85 to create what is now a modern light-rail system.
The Lynx Blue Line cost $463 million, and it's the first piece of Charlotte's $9 billion transit plan, to be completed by the year 2030, which calls for several light-rail lines, a commuter rail line and streetcars. A voter-approved half-cent sales tax dedicated to transit will pay for much of the work.
Scott Link, a truck driver in Charlotte, is a regular Lynx rider. He's a supporter of the new system even though he says it priced him out of his former apartment.
"It raised property values all along the line," he said. "My apartment went condo."
In Charleston, trolley supporters hope to replicate Charlotte's success.
Developers of the 104-acre Magnolia project in the Charleston Neck Area have been the leading advocates for a trolley or another form of light rail. Unlike the proposed commuter rail from Charleston to Summerville, a trolley line could connect the massive Magnolia development to downtown Charleston, with stops in the neighborhoods along the way.
In 2005, the Magnolia developers brought speakers from Charlotte and San Francisco to tout the benefits of trolleys to a Chamber of Commerce audience. Early in 2006, some of the Magnolia developers purchased two 1930s-vintage trolleys that had been converted into a home in West Ashley, thinking the streetcars might be renovated and returned to service some day, which is exactly what happened in Charlotte.
"Charlotte used the trolley to demonstrate the love of rail, and they parlayed it into a light-rail system," said Robert Clement, a partner in the Magnolia project.
Charleston area planners have all but dismissed the idea of a trolley or light-rail line because of the cost, which is roughly five to 10 times the cost of commuter rail. The Magnolia developers haven't given up but realize they might have to go it alone.
"We might have the trolley just running around Magnolia," Clement said. "We haven't thought that through, but that's something we are starting to think about.
Reach David Slade at 937-5552 or dslade@postandcourier.com.
E-mail this story
Printer-friendly versionComments
zoomru (anonymous) says...
Hey Robert Clement.... if Charlotte is looking at 9 BILLION for complete build out and property is only effected along the lines ...WHAT?? do you SIR.. think!.. would happen if that 9 BILLION was invested into SKYTRAN at www.unimodal.com between now and 2040?? How about YOU,.. Sir! Contact Chris Perkins at Unimodal and discuss how much coverage that will be??? Do you care for just your 104 neck TRACT or do you care about the ENTIRE lowcountry?? Are you forward thinking AT ALL???
RAIL was used during the CIVIL WAR?.. I guess I need to fire Glenn McConnell's CANNON because he sure isn't!!
You mean to tell me that OUR luggage will travel better through an aiport than we citizens do in OUR towns, counties, and STATE???
YOU NEED TO LOOK IN THE MIRROR along with JENNIFER!!!
Who are you two kissing up too???
SIR...You!.. yes YOU! Ask your wife which one she would rather ride IN?? SKYTRAN...LIGHT RAIL....TROLLEY??? Now be honest...Robby!! Let her know that SKYTRAN will run by the subdivision instead of driving to a park and ride once it is built out. Let her know that little Suzy will also catch it along with her friends in the morning and swipe their school cards to take them to school instead of bussing!! Point to POINT..no stopping in between.
Do you want the MAGOLIA PROJECT to lead the NATION in ANYTHING?? How about Charleston?? How about the Lowcountry?? How about this STATE???
Are you a leader? ...Would Jennifer know if I asked her??
July 9, 2008 at 1:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CedarPosts (anonymous) says...
Is there anything left to say after reading the above post? Well, once you get past the mindless ramblings of crazy people you can calmly consider the painfully obvious.
Charlotte for years was commited to "rubber" but for some reason the american middle class has shyed away from busing. So in Charlotte as elsewhere the bus routes belonged to those who could not afford reliable transportation.
And because the only voice for modern mass transportation was the muted poor, Charlotte thumbed her nose at rail.
Through the 70's and 80's Charlotte added interstate highways, mini beltways and even a few HOV lanes, and then in 1995 added the southern section of the now nearly complete outer loop.
Charleston's I-26 during the morning drive time is what Charlote's I-485 between I-77 and Pineville looks like all day long. Perma-grid-lock!
Now to bring Charlotte into the 21st century they'll have to spend billons to play catch up.
I would encourage Charleston leaders to look beyond 2040 and suggest they begin the process to secure a modern tranportation future for the low country.
Throughout the world highspeed rail links metro and countryside, cities and towns via fuel efficent, enviroment friendly, safe and "fast" transportation.
As for the ramblings of mad men I'll offer this quote from the movie Gettysburg:
You certainly do have a talent for trivializin' the momentous and complicatin' the obvious. You ever considered runnin' for Congress?
July 9, 2008 at 5:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
moonpie (anonymous) says...
Beautiful CP, I got a head ache when I saw who was first up today in this post. I am skeptical but open to light rail like Charlotte or the SKYTRAN. We have to do something and more cars is not the answer. I do think it will take a change in our everyday lifes and brings us closer to mirroring larger cities for better or worst. I just can't see me riding public transportation as we have it today because now it is used mainly by the poor who can't afford cars and gas. The police depts will have to step up to make us feel safe enough to put our wife and kids on any public transportation. I'm seeing/thinking NY subways!
July 9, 2008 at 6:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CedarPosts (anonymous) says...
CB today you are correct, of course that was the thinking in Charlotte 20 years ago. Ya'll got to look beyond today and understand where this is all going.
South Carolina is not like the UK or Europe but if everyone drove around Paris or London the roads would be parking lots.
But Change is coming to America and Change is painful.
More about painful change at http:cedarposts.blogspot.com
July 9, 2008 at 7:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ricktib (anonymous) says...
Having worked in Charlotte for a while, I know there were and are many opponents to the light rail system. Their views, and even the fact that they even exist appear nowhere in this article.
It's once again political activism under the guise of journalism.
July 9, 2008 at 7:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gcmadness (anonymous) says...
I agree with CP. We have to think ahead. I lived in Charlotte for 15 years, and witnessed the boom. I see the same signs here that I saw in Charlotte during the late 80's/early 90's. Charleston is the next big thing, and there are a lot people/businesses relocating to this area. The traffic problem will only get worse. If we tackle it now, 20 years from now we will look back with a great sense of pride. If we ignore it, Charleston will be a miserable place to live. Kind of like how our federal government ignored the oil problem in the 70's, and now look.
July 9, 2008 at 8:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
I don't know what is so magic about "lite rail". My thoughts are that we should use multiple services. I started in a small town in Mass. I would go with my mother to Boston using two systems - first we took the Eastern Mass bus to Forest Hills and then took the elevated train, which became a subway, into the heart of Boston. Later on, I used a commuter train from my town into South Station in Boston. All of this involves a lot of walking to bus stops and train stations. I believe the days of just jumping into your car and driving to your destination are just about over. My point is that we should use what we have and build on it. But we need competent people planing and running these systems and it needs to be somewhat convenient - like when I lived in San Francisco, the buses/trolleys where on a 15 min. cycle (15 min. wait at a stop)..
July 9, 2008 at 8:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
STREETLAW (anonymous) says...
Not since Bill Clinton strained at a nat over the definition of the word sex, has there been such a concerted effort to define the word success with regards to a commuter problem. Any way you look at it these projects are socialize wheelfare that benefit a relative few.
There are many places to put public funds where they can help the poor, hungry, aged and handicapped. But for some reason the Post and Courier seems intent on pandering to the politicians plans to expand their bureaucracy while serving an elitist few.
Of course pandering to politicians is nothing new to the press. It helps insure they have access to the power of this latter day royalty.
As to those 6,300 riders, they could ride a bike the 9.6 miles on disposable bikes for a long time for the $75,000 per person the project cost on start up, and that not including the cost of administering and maintaining the system. And don't forget the inevitable shuttles that will be required to get the riders the few extra blocks to their final destination.
Success? Well you can say the program to put a man on the moon was a success. Was it worth it? Depends on who you talk to. Could the money have been better spent. You bet it could.
July 9, 2008 at 8:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
$430 million dollars for 9.6 miles. Summerville to Charleston is 22 miles. This goes to a dense downtown where you can walk to lunch and take care of other business before heading home. When you get to work today try taking lunch without your car. Have fun.
Until the people of the lowcountry allow high density areas mass transit cannot work here.
Zoomru, did you check the site I posted yesterday? The very person who came up with this crackpot skytran idea admitted there was no way it could work. There is not a single working prototype of skytran, much less any city actually using it. It exists in the mind of the delusional and on paper, and that's it. Why don't you start yelling about ... what is that thing they do on star trek? warps or teleporters or something. Yeah! That's the ticket! Lets spend billions of tax dollars on teleporters...no ugly overhead maglev rails with that!
July 9, 2008 at 8:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
zekemire (anonymous) says...
COST! COST! COST! These feel good socialist projects are simply a drain on taxpayers, the successful, to transfer a benefit to those who pay no taxes! $453 million for less than 10 miles of line to transport 6300 people is a waste of resources!! That same $463 million could build 30 to 40 miles of efficient roads and bridges! The one good thing about the Charlotte line, IT IS ON A DEDICATED RAIL LINE!!!
Political types want to confiscate the use of freight rail lines for the passenger lines to "save money", but, this is not safe and cannot stand up under the constant use and speed of a light or heavy rail system!! And finally, NONE OF THESE SYSTEMS, NATIONWIDE, CAN OPERATE ON REVENUES, THEY MUST BE SUBSUDIZED BY THE TAXPAYING MASSES THAT DO NOT USE THE SYSTEM! Atlanta is a prime example! Last year they spouted with so much joy that MARTA had a $12 million surplus! A LIE!! The subsidy for MARTA through a 1 cent sales tax was $166 million! In fact MARTA had an operational loss of $144 million! We must stop this continuous wealth redistribution of taking money through taxes and other fees and schemes from those who contribute, work and pay their way in our society to give it to those who do not or who do not make as much! THAT IS SOCIALIST! THAT IS SOVIET RUSSIA, NOT THE USA!!! Sure there are people who need public transportation, but, it is not up to the government to take money from one person and give it to another!! We owe all that to FDR & LBJ and their socialist push! And todays democrats keep pushing that agenda! At the founding of the Country there was a thought that the country would be fine until the masses, who were allowed to vote, realized that they could vote themselves more and more from the government, and, therefore from others! WE HAVE REACHED THAT POINT AND UNLESS WE TURN BACK TO THE WAYS THAT TOOK THIS COUNTRY FROM A WILDERNESS TO THE GREATEST NATION IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD IN LESS THAN 200 YEARS, WE ARE LOST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
July 9, 2008 at 8:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
zoomru (anonymous) says...
MAD ???? Do you think? Your dog gone right ..I'm MAD. No One else IS!!? There are a number of specific issues that face OUR lowcountry and instead of looking out for the TAXPAYER and using technology to OUR advantage; OUR so called leaders are being led by individual "INTERESTS" instead of working as a TEAM! This mass transit solution should be involving at least Columbia, Greenville and Spartanburg...but this is being used to actually benefit entrenched "PLAYERS" and no one is calling their hands on it except ME!!
We have a "trusting" public who are getting creamed in taxes and being stifled economically. Our transportation solutions should streamline and solve multiple solutions. Will light rail help solve school bussing? No. Will light rail minimize impact to easement and infrastructure modifications? No. Does light Rail maximize advertising revenue streams? No. Will Light Rail be a tourism DRAW? Not as much as SKYTRAN or Similar solution. Will light rail be easier and faster to implement? NO!! Will light rail service the islands? VERY DOUBTFUL.
These people are asking us to chew on a solution that they know will not pay for itself. Well "LEADERS"...find a way that does! SKYTRAN offers the most revenue STREAMS!!! Do our leaders want to MAKE money or TAX US to DEATH??
July 9, 2008 at 8:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pck5 (anonymous) says...
we may not have the population density now, but with a projected 300,000 more people moving here in the next decade, we are certainly headed that way.
i say light rail, and HOV lanes that run during peak hours.
July 9, 2008 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Jeez...where is the ignore button? Skytran offers what revenue stream? Tell me where I can actually walk up and touch this skytran zoomru. Point me somewhere this is actually in use and producing revenue. Point out to me how many people in the Charleston area are willing to have maglev rails, even if this fantasy did exist, crisscrossing over the peninsula. Did you notice that the web site you keep pointing us to doesn't actually show a picture, just computer graphics? No link to all of its successes? No mention of patent? They haven't even designed it. It's an idea, just like teleporters and personal air tubes and flying cars are an idea. It doesn't exist.
I hope zoomru is a 10 year old, because to have reached voting age and still not be capable of rational thought is a real shame, though that does seem to be the standard in South Carolina sometimes.
July 9, 2008 at 9 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
berthelot (anonymous) says...
I think they may have meant "MAD" in the British sense...
July 9, 2008 at 9 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Larz13 (anonymous) says...
As others have noted, the big problem here is that we do not have the businesses that Charlotte (or any other major city) has. We have hardly ANY Fortune 500 companies headquartered here and most of the jobs are service related to the tourist and shipping economy. Until we have several 50+ story Bank of America buildings with 4000+ employees in each in town, I say it would be better to direct funds elsewhere. Perhaps the Chamber of Commerce should get off their butts and recruit some big companies here (some would be for it and others not so) but that is what it will take to make rail a possibility here.
6300 people seems to be a small percentage of Charlotte's population using this rail service.
July 9, 2008 at 9 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
common_sense (anonymous) says...
You all seem to see the writing on the wall. P&C is doing this series just to advocate the idea of rail, nothing more.
Charleston is not Charlotte, is not Chicago, is not NYC. We are different. Topography & the location of our popuation centers (and the topography in between them) make rail cost prohibitive.
If the P&C and their elitist cronies want to pony up for rail, be my guest. In the meantime, the rest of us taxpayers prefer wider & safer roads.
38 minutes from DT to Summerville is still not a bad ride.
I'm just sayin...
July 9, 2008 at 10:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
eyfigueroa (anonymous) says...
coldbeer; excellent point. The attention is being given to areas already saturated. The islands, outer summerville, moncks corner (especially 17a corridor), jedburg, ridgeville, THOSE are the areas that are and will continue to experience exponential growth over the next couple of decades. That is where the infrastructure should be shored up, not North Charleston and Charleston.
July 9, 2008 at 10:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
a_set_love (anonymous) says...
Someone please remind me why we need to spend hundreds of millions of dollars, on a lite rail, to funnel people out of Summerville and into the City of Charleston.
Is it that we are trying to save a small, missmanaged southern town, called the City of Charleston?
July 9, 2008 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
a_set_love (anonymous) says...
Why is it necessary to go down the I-26 corridor, other than the fact that the City of Charleston has several large projects under way in the City of Charleston "NECK" area.
The infrastructure built with tons of tax money from the Tri County Metro area will go far to enhance the value of these projects for the City of Charleston rich and famous.
July 9, 2008 at 10:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
zoomru (anonymous) says...
People...at least I'm getting you to think OUT SIDE the norm?? Major.... when one considers any "progress"; wouldn't it be wise to make sure what ever is agreed on actually at least pays for itself?? The revenue streams in question; results from the individual advertising on each individual tram or pod or whatever you want to call it. Furthermore, if we could find a system that could also help our school bussing situation at the same time would be a plus. Look at the yearly cost in fuel alone for both school and CARTA? I have no monetary gain in Skytran or any other "solution". It is the lack of discussion in ALL forms of MEDIA that alarms me?! It is those individuals who stand to gain from shoving a system down the citizens throats that doesn't pay for iteslef that need to be labeled "MAD". Are these individuals working with other counties? Do these other counties realize that they may not have a choice in the MASS transportation solution for their area?? Shouldn't we be working together??
In the big picture....this is about the CONTROL of the flow of money. If trains or light rail is used, all "money" (passengers) come to a central station to make a connection. With Skytran or similar form of transportation, the "money" (passengers) do not need to stop at a central station and wait (shop) for their next connection. So instead of easing congestion..it actually causes MORE!!!! Not only do these "Players" control the flow of money..these COWARDS tax US more to build a system for them to control the FLOW. They don't fool ..ME!
July 9, 2008 at 10:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pompusmaximus (anonymous) says...
First of all, to the uninformed, the system is not light rail people its commuter rail. Secondly, the way energy prices are headed, it would be beneficial to have a secondary means of transport to rely on other than cars. By building this, we are ensuring the sustainability of the region.
Oh and common sense, it does not take 38 minutes to drive from downtown to summerville in 5:00 rush hour traffic. More like an hour. Have you seen hwy17A at rush hour!?
July 9, 2008 at 10:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rebcsc (anonymous) says...
Peninsular Charleston has a population today not much greater than it was in 1860. Review the census data.
In spite of that, somehow, historically, it supported a passenger rail line to Citadel Station ... right at the Old Citadel in downtown Charleston. And buried under all that pavement downtown are old trolley lines. Also, look at the Rails to Trails sites for where rail lines used to exist.
I've read all the comments about population density, wealth redistribution, socialism, etc. People argue about spending several hundred million dollars on a mass transit system which can benefit everyone eventually while the country exports $43 billion dollars weekly in national wealth to pay for our addiction to the automobile.So much for free market capitalism.
I'm not a Joe Riley fan but I agree with him totally when he says the question shouldn't be whether ... but when.
The state wants to spend $300 million dollars for a one lane expansion for what ... 8 or 9 miles of interstate ... which will eventually turn into an expensive parking lot for a few hours each day.
When the day comes that only billionaires can afford to buy gasoline for their cars, the rest of us will finally appreciate a little foresight.
Of course, there will always be the relentless detractors.
July 9, 2008 at 10:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
farfallaspeaks (anonymous) says...
Charlotte improved their bus system FIRST. I lived there for 20 years, and saw an amazing improvement in their bus system. As a teenager without a car, it was impossible to leave my neighborhood if I didn't have a car. Only joggers used the sidewalks.
Most people don't want to take the bus because they have to walk 5 blocks to get to the bus stop. Let's make it easy for people to hop on a bus in their neighborhoods, which will then take you to a light rail system that leaves every 5 minutes.
If it takes people an extra half hour to get somewhere, and they have to wake up at the butt crack of dawn and walk 5 blocks to get to the bus (which they may miss, and have to wait another hour for the next one) public transportation WILL NOT WORK. That was my reasoning for not taking the bus to work.
Before we spend all that money, lets work with what we have.
Then, it won't be just the poor funny looking people who take the bus, but more of the elderly and children too.
(no fear of getting mugged).
In Italy where my sister lives, the majority of the people who use the trains and buses are students and the elderly.
Taking public transportation is not something scary over there. My grandmother walks 30 feet from her condo in Trieste Italy to hop on a bus which leaves every 5 minutes. She hops from bus to bus, and barely has to walk at all. She is 93 years old, and I really don't know how she would manage without public transportation.
Here in Charleston, my landlady is 86 years old and is still driving. (We live downtown) This is a very very scary thing. When they take her license away, I have no idea how she will manage.
July 9, 2008 at 10:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
a_set_love (anonymous) says...
rebcsc, are we building this for the City of Charleston or are we building this to move large amounts of people around the Tri County Metro area. From where they are to where they want to go.
July 9, 2008 at 11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
zoomru (anonymous) says...
The one thing this "line" won't solve is the I-26/526 SNARL.
Its not the commuters going from summerville to down town..its the commuters going from Summerville area to Daniel Island, Mt Pleasant and beyond; or to West ashley, Johns Island via I-526. Step back and look at what this will actually solve? Is this about a new train/rail station for the NECK area(MAGNOLIA)? Do we have that many people coming from JEDBURG and Walter-ville to MUSC? or the MARKET?
Once AMTRAK is moved to MAGNOLIA; what is the overall benefit?? If it is not; are we going to have 2 different stations?? I agree something needs to be considered..BUT everything needs to be ABOVE the table and out in the OPEN.
Above all...it must PAY for itself..PERIOD.
July 9, 2008 at 11:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
common_sense (anonymous) says...
We do not have the high density, the tax base, the lack of man made or natural barriers, or the political will for rail here. In this spread out area, it simply makes no sense.
Pompous, your argument about drivinf from DT to Summerville is with the P&C, not me. That's what their stats show.
I'm just sayin...
July 9, 2008 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reader (anonymous) says...
Wow! The cost of that project is insane! Think about that: $453,000,000 divided by 6300 commuters divided by 20 years of commuting works out to $10 per rider per roundtrip! And to go just 10 miles! Holy mackerel. Charlotte officils could have just stood at a bus stop and handed out $5 bills to everyone who agreed to ride a bus, and the cost would have been less!
July 9, 2008 at 11:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rebcsc (anonymous) says...
Well "a_set_love" ...
The last time I looked, all this traffic congestion, whether it be from Mt. Pleasant, Summerville, down highway 61, up US 17 through West Ashley or 161 from Folly Beach through James Island, it was all headed in the general direction of ... Charleston. Morning congestion ... in ... 5 PM congestion ... out ... just like the tide.
Frankly, I live in West Ashley and a Summerville/ Charleston rail line isn't going to help me ... directly ... but something has to start somewhere.
Actually, if I need to go to Northwoods Mall or anywhere else between Sam Rittenberg and Summerville between 3:30 and 6 in the afternoon, it will help me.And at other times, maybe I can catch a train and save a little money as well as wear and tear on my car.
People who resent Charleston being the center of the ... "Charleston Area" ... should just get over it.
July 9, 2008 at 11:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
grae (anonymous) says...
Well, there's money out there. The 526 extension proposal is shaky, no matter what the governing bodies might tell you. The environmental study alone will take another two years and during that time, I imagine people will come to their senses and realize that its an entirely unnecessary project: and it will leave us with $500 million in half-cent sales tax. What was the cost of that rail? $463 million? Seems to me like thats a MUCH smarter use of the funds, especially since the 526 extension is shown as working at failing levels of service within only a few years of its completion. Plus the fact that the extension empties into Calhoun street, only furthering the congestion downtown.
July 9, 2008 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Skipper (anonymous) says...
Every city is unique; its population, culture, architecture, topography, etc make it so. Being someone who has worked in the planning and transportation fields for many years, I have traveled to many cities (large and small) all across this country and others. I've read and studied this issue to exhaustion and then some more. The issues at hand in these articles and comments are not, however, unique in and of themselves. The arguments you all are making, both for and against transit, have been hashed and rehashed the world over. You're not the first, and certainly will not be the last to have this discussion!
Without getting into too deep of an analysis of this issue, I am going to share a few thoughts with you on this topic for your consumption, and I hope that you'll take some time to digest it.
There are several specific issues that need to be dealt with: congestion, travel time, and pollution. These must be addressed in a comprehensive way with a solution that the majority can accept. In addition, there are geopolitical and socio-economic factors at play which we have little or no direct control over as individuals. However, if we work together, we can make a difference, if not globally, at least locally, and that is what will make the most difference in our own quality of life.
An improved personal quality of life is generally the primary goal for each of us. How that is defined individually is where conflict arises. After that, most people have some degree of concern with the quality of life of their neighbor (love thy neighbor as thy self), and with the impact of humanity on the natural environment.
The philosophical question at hand is: are these issues of personal responsibility or that of collective responsibility? I would contend that they are both. One person can make a difference, but it takes many to make a change.
(continued)
July 9, 2008 at 12:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Skipper (anonymous) says...
Let's take this a step further and consider the issues: congestion, travel time, and pollution. Congestion is a result of exceeding capacity within a given timeframe. As mentioned yesterday by one commenter, if you spread the traffic out over a longer period of time you will vary the degree of congestion. Instituting flex hours or rather by varying start and end times for large employers you can make a significant impact on the intensity of the congestion. The same can be applied to trucking companies by prohibiting them from dispatching during peak travel times like during the middle of the day and at night. This is a practical and fiscally responsible option to reduce peak travel time congestion.
Travel time is directly proportional to velocity which is determined by the size of the "pipe". Travel time and volume are not necessarily related. Invariably there are two primary factors that affect travel time (speed): merging and accidents. Both of these directly impact the "size of the pipe" and thus the speed of the flow. Adding lanes generally does little to improve this as compared to improved on/off ramps of freeways and intersections of primary and secondary roads. Generally, the bigger you build it, the more volume you can carry, and the more volume you add the slower you'll go. And, merging will still take place and certainly accidents further contributing to the problem. So, adding lanes is not a solution but rather a contributor to the exacerbation of the problem. Would you see temporary relief upon completion? Most certainly at first, but like they say, "if you build it, they will come". And during the construction period travel times will actually worsen! Given the current cost of $18 million per lane per mile with the result being still a failing grade, couldn't the money be better spent?
And pollution... Charleston is fortunate in that the onshore ocean breeze helps to dissipate the ozone, carbon dioxide and volatile organic compounds (VOCs) emitted by vehicles and industry, but that isn't always the case. And by adding additional lanes of traffic you're actually increasing the levels of VOCs as the amount produced by a car is directly proportional to how fast it's going. The faster you drive the more VOCs you dispense into the air because our engines are not very efficient and a significant amount of unburned gasoline is actually ejected from your tailpipe! Then the flip side is if there is an accident, breakdown or construction, traffic slows to a crawl and you then emit even higher levels carbon dioxide. I think you get the picture. The automobile is just not an efficient or clean method for moving people.
(continued)
July 9, 2008 at 12:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Skipper (anonymous) says...
Now I want to throw a spanner into the mix. All forms of transportation are government subsidized. Every time you pull out of your driveway, you're using PUBLIC transportation whether you realize it or not. It's "public" because that road you drive on was built with taxpayer monies and maintained with taxpayer monies. You alone could never afford with the fairly small amount you pay in taxes (income and sales) to build the road that you drive on every day, or even a sufficient portion of it to go anywhere. Now, think about this: every time you fill your gas tank or buy something or earn a pay check, you're subsidizing your neighbor's drive to work. You're also subsidizing that businessman's flight. You're subsidizing those shipping containers being offloaded from that ship that you subsidized to pull into that port, and that truck that just delivered its load to your neighborhood Wal-Mart. Yes, you're subsidizing Wal-Mart too! So, for my dear "economic conservative" friends who are so hard up against "subsidies" for public or private use, try walking from now on!
That's right, folks, our economy could not exist as it does today without public monies used to build and maintain our infrastructure. Nearly every private company and private citizen depends on public investment in our infrastructure to keep the wheels of progress turning.
Now, I'd like to take up the idea of mass transit as opposed to public transportation. Mass transit is the movement of the masses, yet nearly always public, though there are forms of private mass transit. I've seen herein a lot of folks "rail" against mass transit, and I would venture a guess that almost none of them have ever even stepped foot on a bus or train. I'd also take a guess and probably be right that their opposition to mass transit is almost specifically centered on the fact that in the South persons who use mass transit are predominately poor blacks. I can't begin to tell you how often I've heard the same argument that I read yesterday that one commenter wrote saying, and I paraphrase, "I don't want those poor blacks and criminals taking a bus or train to my white community." It's an ignorant argument to begin with and racist at best. That's just shameful, really. The fact is, we need to get beyond this black/white stuff and start worrying about keeping this country moving, period. We need to diversify our transportation system and energy sources quickly. If you want to see our economy rebound and grow, then we need to implement some changes in our lifestyles. The first being to decrease and then eliminate our reliance on petroleum as a motor fuel. But this is a follow on topic which I'll save for later.
(continued)
July 9, 2008 at 12:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Skipper (anonymous) says...
The most cost efficient and socially justifiable thing we can do is to diversify our transportation system with a Complete Mobility System. That means improvements to certain roads, intersection improvements, signalization improvements, signage improvements, expansion and improvement in our local bus systems, implementation of commuter and intercity passenger rail in South Carolina, utilization of bus rapid transit where passenger rail isn't possible or feasible, high-occupancy vehicle lanes, better and safer sidewalks, bike racks and bike lanes, interconnected subdivision developments, better placement of new schools in proximity to existing homes and businesses, better land use policies, limit expansion of municipal services to un/underdeveloped areas of our counties, promote infill development in our urbanized and suburban areas, and increase residential densities on the order of downtown Charleston.
Here's the thing, everything I've laid out for you has to be done for this to be successful. However, no one is ever obligated to use a bus or a train. You have the freedom of choice, but so does everyone else. You can choose to take your car to work. You can choose to carpool. You can choose to bike or walk for that matter. But we as a society need to rethink our allocation of funding and resources in the future so that we do have options and choices, otherwise we may be left with none at all!
Consider that the price of gasoline has increase by more than $1 in the last six months. Realize that the price of gas is NOT going down significantly, and is most likely going to increase to $5/gallon within the next year. It is highly unlikely that the automakers are going to produce highly efficient vehicles soon enough to make a difference, and even if they do, they'll cost more than the difference in the fuel they'd save. Our only real alternative is to start making some changes here at home, and those are as I've put forward for you. Some here will argue and contest this, but the fact remains that if we want our economy to continue to grow and our quality of life to improve, we have no choice but to begin implementing this strategy of a Complete Mobility System, for our sake and for the sake of our children.
God Bless America!
July 9, 2008 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FindingMyself (anonymous) says...
Some of you guys seem to be forgetting something. Yes, Charleston area may not be that big at the moment. But if people are forecasting a continuation of the boom, then it will get bigger. And a line from Summerville to Charleston may not be helpful to *everyone*, but it has to start somewhere. If it is deemed a success, more will follow. Chicago, NY, etc. didn't become big places overnight - it was gradual.
July 9, 2008 at 12:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
singleroni (anonymous) says...
ALL THESE PEOPLE COMING. WHERE ARE THEY GOING TO SCHOOL? WHERE TO WORK. WHAT DO WE DO WITH THEM IN A HURRICANE. WHAT HAPPENS ON BUSSES AND TRAINS IF YOU WENT SHOPPING AND HAD PACKAGES. ARE THESE GOING TO BE AVENUES FOR THE CRIMINALS TO PREY ON US? I CAN SEE EXPRESS BUSSES FROM A POINT TO SAY THE MALL , BUT HOW DO YOU GET TO THE STORES NEAR THE MALL? I LIVED IN CHARLOTTE NO WHERE THE TRAFFIC IN CHARLESTON AS THERE AND NO WHERE THE DENSITY OF PEOPLE.THEY HAVE A POLICE FORCE THERE UNLIKE NORTH CHARLESTON AND CHARLESTON.
July 9, 2008 at 12:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
grannyofsix (anonymous) says...
CB talking about London dont htey have to pay to drive around in London or something in tha order I know when i was there in Oct i use the undergriund and the buses and apid for a ticket to use them all day
July 9, 2008 at 12:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
common_sense (anonymous) says...
Skipper, thanks for the missive, but I gave up after the first two entries of yours.
I'm just sayin...
July 9, 2008 at 1:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Skipper (anonymous) says...
common_sense, then I suggest you read on...
July 9, 2008 at 1:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shoelaces (anonymous) says...
I can't really see how a rail system could work here. We can't even get city busses to serve people adequately.
As CB said we have so many bridges, rivers, and creeks to negotiate with rails. It sounds like it will help some but wouldn't benefit the masses.
And Thomas, it costs me a lot of money to fill up my small SUV and my boat but thankfully I can afford it all (for now).
We are a mobile society and like our independence. Suppose I am stuck at work and my kid is sick at school but the "train" isn't due for another hour. I know that's a little simplistic but it's still an issue.
I just can't see how it would work here but I would entertain seeing a proposal for it. And of course how much it would cost us. I doubt the 1/2 a cent sales tax will support it :)
July 9, 2008 at 1:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pompusmaximus (anonymous) says...
Skipper what an excellent analysis of the situation. I recommend all posters of this forum to read Skippers post. He is dead on to the problems our community faces.
July 9, 2008 at 1:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pck5 (anonymous) says...
as far as the landscape being too difficult for a train, that's kind of a silly reason since we already have a freight rail that runs along 26...
this needs to suppot the future, not just right now. we have google coming to north charleston, and didn't boeing just buy vaught? just because we might not have a tremendous number of large companies here right now doesn't mean we won't. and if we wait until it happens it will be too late.
July 9, 2008 at 1:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
a_set_love (anonymous) says...
rebcsc, I know the question I asked was very difficult for you to understand so I will try once again.
"Are we building this for the City of Charleston or are we building this to move large amounts of people around the Tri County Metro area. From where they are to where they want to go."
Oh, I did enjoy your joke about the City of Charleston area.
July 9, 2008 at 2:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
a_set_love (anonymous) says...
Pck5 - Google's center is located in the City of Goose Creek and Boeing bought Vought Aircrafts interest in the second factory thats located in the City of North Charleston. Vought and an Italian company co-owned this assembly plant.
July 9, 2008 at 2:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
Just tuned back in and it looks like we have a new player on board. Skip has a lot of interesting thoughts. Our problem is that our leaders, particularly at the national level, have let us down on the energy front. To build a system to handle the current transportation problem will take folks of vision and courage - do we have any?
July 9, 2008 at 3:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
a_set_love (anonymous) says...
Neponset, where exactly and what exactly is the current transportation problem that we need to handle.
July 9, 2008 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
a_..
Go to the pump or try to go east on I-26 at 7:00 am in the morning.
July 9, 2008 at 3:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
a_set_love (anonymous) says...
I do it everyday at jut about 7:00am. I make sure I get on just after I-526. It goes perty fast from then on. The bottle neck must be there or before you get there.
July 9, 2008 at 4:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
a_set_love (anonymous) says...
SCDOT cameras show traffic on 526 from West Ashley pouring into the west bound I-26 traffic at I-26/I-526. It also shows traffic on 526 from Daniel Island/ Mt Pleasant pouring into the west bound I-26 traffic.
Looks like a real bottleneck in play till about 5:30.
July 9, 2008 at 5:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
a_..
Fortunately, I live close in and don't have to deal with the traffic. When I turn on the local news, at about 7:00 am. most days there is a wreck at Ashey Phos. and trafic is backed up on east bound I-26. We need a better way or at least get the idiot drivers off the roads.
July 9, 2008 at 5:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
a_set_love (anonymous) says...
Neo.. If everyone really wants light rail maybe it should run from Summerville thru West Ashley to Downtown City of Charleston. Lots of homes being built thru that area.
July 9, 2008 at 5:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tf29301 (anonymous) says...
Just to point out a couple of things about the Charlotte system that need clarification...the system actually has between 12k-14k riders per day. Estimates of ridership are about 40% above projected ridership.
And, as one post mentioned, there are a few people in Charlotte that were opposed to the line. The group gathered signatures to try have the funding for the entire system (5 lines) removed. The group lost by a 70%-30% margin when it was voted on in November of 2007. So, it is correct to say that the majority of people in Charlotte want the system. And, the vote was taken before gas broke $4 per gallon.
I do not know enough about Charleston (other than I like to visit) but, in Charlotte, the system has been designed to help with congestion over the next 20 years when Charlotte is projected to have a metro population of 3.5-4 million (currently at 2 million).
July 9, 2008 at 5:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WestAshleyMomma (anonymous) says...
Tell those 300,000 plus people that Charleston is "FULL" and to stop at Charlotte. Then they can accomodate the extra on their rail line, and we won't have to have one here!!!!!!!!!
July 9, 2008 at 7:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pompusmaximus (anonymous) says...
Wow westashleymomma, you're real bright. My god I should call up all the mayors of the region and tell them your brilliant plan.
July 9, 2008 at 8:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WestAshleyMomma (anonymous) says...
pompusmaximus - Thanks, I think I'm pretty brilliant myself. What gets me is all these folks that come to Charleston to visit and decide it would be a great place to move to. I'm wondering how much research the 2 folks that bought houses on Daniel Island did to actually find out about Charleston, the weather, the traffic, the jobs, etc. I have lived here all my life and NEVER suffered from any kind of mold allergies. Could be, when they moved here, that is when they developed them. I wonder how much "humidity" there is in North Dakota??????? I say, If you don't like the weather, the traffic (which I'm sure is not as bad as San Franciso, Chicago or Charlotte), or anything else here, 1st, why the hell did you come here, and 2nd - go back where you came from!!!!!!! We were just fine before you came!
July 9, 2008 at 8:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rollo (anonymous) says...
"Free parking"???
Someone is paying for that high priced property, someone is paying for security in those parking lots. NOTHING is free.
Fossil fuel is abundant, and worldwide. This whole "Global Warming" theory has been debunked, and it's time rational, thinking people tell Congress, the UN, and other nitwits to quit trying to scare us into submission.
Give up your personal transportation and you give up a large part of your personal freedom along with it. If we see another 'Hugo' here, and the Gov't evacuates you, you are reliant on Gov't to allow you to come back! (think New Orleans, some of those people have never been allowed back!)
How can gov't control a highly mobile population? Curtail that populations' mobility!! Why is Congress acting shy over energy production? It curtails our mobility, it gives Gov't more control.
July 9, 2008 at 9:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
becky1 (anonymous) says...
I'd like to add to tf29301 last comment. I live in Charlotte and visit Charleston at least once a year. The nearly half billion dollar price tag of the rail is only a fraction of the cost of freeway projects in Charlotte. It has been said that it will cost 1.2 BILLION DOLLARS just to widen I-77 two more lanes in each direction from Carowinds to downtown Charlotte (approx. 10 miles). Charleston could probably support some type of commuter rail but not a light rail system like Charlotte's. Charlotte's system is not commuter rail. Commuter rail covers longer distances, has fewer stops, only runs typically during rush hours, and is far cheaper to build and operate than light rail. Such a system in Charleston could be built for less than 100 million.
July 9, 2008 at 9:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
HAR725 (anonymous) says...
Allocate the funds from the toll road on Johns Island to help pay for the trolley, get the city and state to invest for potential returns for social security and other areas of need.
July 9, 2008 at 10:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
pearl (anonymous) says...
I am writing to support the post and courier's article and some of the people who posted positive comments about the idea of a light rail. I grew up in San Diego during the seventies when the population of San Diego was around 700,000 (a little more than Charleston, Berkeley and Dorchester county's present population) and now is over 3 million. San Diego, which has the same latitude as Charleston, has light rail that extends south, east and north of downtown and it is very pleasant to ride on. Traffic in San Diego is horrible today despite the many times that the freeways have been widened and if I lived in San Diego today and didn't live near where I worked, then I would definitely live near one of the light rail stations. Starting light rail now in Charleston is a vital component in solving very real nasty congestion problems that will occur in 10-15 years.
(If you are complaining about a small tax now, just wait a few years when many more people will be upset with the serious traffic problems.)
I have also lived in Europe for three years and where I live had only a population of 80,000 but I had no need of a car to get around as their public transportation system was so extensive. Stockholm, Sweden is geographically very similar to Charleston with islands, rivers and lakes interwoven within the city. The rail system is vastly better than any system I have seen in North America. The light rail lines go under the rivers and become a subway system under the city. Moreover one can take a train/subway car to the airport or train station. For the elderly this is essential as many can not drive. This of course was mostly funded by taxes, but (for those who are clueless) taxes are how we pay for our roads (and airports) that all of us have used sometime in our life.
July 10, 2008 at 12:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rebcsc (anonymous) says...
For "a_set_love" ...
I got your point ...
I was just trying to ignore it ... something I try to do with petty,narrow minded people who revert to questioning another person's intelligence when they find their own wit failing.
I'm sure everyone talks about taking a vacation in the Tri County Metro area or going to the beach at Tri County Metro.
Gosh ... when my family comes to visit, they tell everybody they're going to Tri County Metro.
You remind me of the family that wanted to change a street name because they didn't like the family it was named for.
And ... I'm sure Boeing and Google will tell everyone they're building offices in North Charleston and Goose Creek.
Right ...
But this isn't addressing the transportation problem. Oh ...
Excuse me. Didn't you ask someone, "What transportation Problem?"
July 10, 2008 at 1:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Postandcourier.com is pleased to offer readers the enhanced ability to comment on stories. We expect our readers to engage in lively, yet civil discourse. Postandcourier.com does not edit user submitted statements and we cannot promise that readers will not occasionally find offensive or inaccurate comments posted in the comments area. Responsibility for the statements posted lies with the person submitting the comment, not postandcourier.com. If you find a comment that is objectionable, please click "report abuse" and we will review it for possible removal. Please be reminded, however, that in accordance with our Terms of Use and federal law, we are under no obligation to remove any third party comments posted on our website.
Users can now build user-to-user connections, follow friends' recent posts, add an avatar that fits their personality, and more. If you have posted here before you'll need to sign up again, or if you've never posted before, start now by signing up!
Full terms and conditions can be read here.
Thank you for your interest in this story. The comment thread for this article has been closed.
- Most Commented
- Most Emailed
