Engineers offer alternatives to I-526 extension

jamesislander (anonymous) says...

Who are the "Concerned Citizens of the Sea Island?" Where do they meet and do they hold public forums? This is just another flavor of the so called "Rural Transprtation Authority" that was loosely formed years ago by our friend Mr Legare. This group is not a true representation of the people of the Islands. I agree that we need a network of smaller roads IN ADDITION TO THE EXTENSION OF 526. If you haven't been there, ORLANDO, where the expert witness (traffic consultant) hired by the non profit liberals, was brought to life by none other than Walt Disney. IT IS A SQUARE GRID MASTER PLANNED AND THOUGHT OUT!!!. Charleston is a lovely place, unfortunately, unless you live on Daniel Island, it is impossible to make the idealistic plans these guys have come up with into reality. NEWS FLASH....doesn't the Mark Clark cross Daniel Island? Why is it not a "road way" conneted by a small netwrok of connectivity.....? It disturbed me that a non-profit group can use dollars to fight people on a personal level and to hire private companies to come in and fight off progress. In Mickey Mouse Land the consultants plans may look good, but here we just need this extension in addition to the new network of roads so when the flock from everywhere else in the land of the free comes here tot he land of milk and honey, we will all be able to live and travel in harmony!

January 4, 2008 at 7:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

bluecap (anonymous) says...

Johns Island traffic just ain't that bad. Simple maintenance and improvement of Main Rd. could help immensely. The Kiawah-Seabrook crowd just want to avoid all inconvenience 'cause they think their wealth entitles them to such.
Other projects should have priority - the Glenn McConnell, the James Island bridge, widening I-26, multilaneing Hwy. 17 South, etc.
All that 'finishing' 526 will do is suburbanize Johns and Wadmalaw and aggravate problems elsewhere. The next developers' target will be the entire ACE basin.
It's time to put a halt to the aims of those who want to make Charleston a megacity.

January 4, 2008 at 8:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

icbmman (anonymous) says...

Bluecap, obviously, you have no idea about Charleston's history. From the beginning of this country, Chas was the 4th largest city in the nation, 5th largest in North America until the mid-1800s. Technically and historically, Chas is supposed to be a "megacity", but it was hindered due to a primarily slave trade economy, war, and natural disasters. And this last extension will hardly make Chas a megacity...what it will do is ease congestion AND provide what so many of you obstructionists seem to forget: another hurricane evacuation route. THAT should be a huge priority.

The proposed alternatives were every bit what I thought they were: half-a$$ed bandaids that will not improve things. Interconnected roads in the several areas mentioned just shuffles traffic around, and traffic usually has a destination like downtown or the beaches. IT WILL STILL BOTTLENECK towards the location where the majority of traffic is heading! Common sense, people!! Jamesislander said it best, I think: interconnected roads need to be built IN ADDITION TO the I-526 extension. The smaller roads (which should be at least 4 lanes, though) facilitate traffic within the particular area, and I-526 provides another avenue for that traffic to reach its destination.

January 4, 2008 at 8:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

charlestonian (anonymous) says...

Johns Island traffic isn't that bad? Obviously you don't travel the roads during rush hour. Try getting on or off the island during rush hour expect to sit in a line of idling traffic. Traveling from the Mc Donald's to 17 turns into at least a half hour journey during rush hour.

So local interconnected roads are the answer to congestion? So we take all the rush hour traffic of people trying to quickly get home at the end of the day when the roads are starting to get dim and send them down residential streets where kids out of school are playing? Sounds like a great idea. How long before we see the Johns Island local residential roads featured on Speed Patrol on the news, and then that doesn't work and we end up with speed bumps on the local roads and everyone reverts back to Main and River road and we are back to where we started.. Don't forget what some North Charleston communities have done to prevent the cut thru traffic in there community during rush hour. They have gotten the law on there side to prevent non residents on there neighborhood roads during rush hour. The precedent has been set in the courts and upheld so there's no reason a Johns Island community couldn't do the same.

Sounds like a good plan....

January 4, 2008 at 9:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

longview (anonymous) says...

I grew up here and prefer this city to, say, Atlanta. To build roads in the name of "progress" is ridiculous. Its is really unfortunate that people look at this kind of development as inevitable and that "we need to plan for the flock of people who will move here" by building new roads and crappy subdivisions. Updating infrastructure should be taken on to one end, servicing the people who live here. If needed, then I support new roads but what is wrong with getting other opinions? Labeling these different groups as extremist and "non profit liberals" is way out of line. These are folks who are just considering alternative to make YOUR life better. I am sure to hear a rash of response to that comment knowing the character of most on this board, but come on. Try to see it for a little more than what it is and not just use it as an excuse for your own lack of planning and foresight. If you don't like traffic, don't live on a rural island.
And, while I appreciate the history lesson, lets face it, Charleston's failure (or blessing) of not growing into a "mega city" was based on more on geographic restriction than the slave trade economy. We have a great city with accessible rural areas and character. Do yall really want to see a repeat of Mt. Pleasant to the south of us? Respectfully.

January 4, 2008 at 9:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

icbmman (anonymous) says...

Longview, the statement that these are people who are considering alternatives to make our lives is better is pure poppycock. The CCL itself is a blatantly extremist environmental organization...maybe not nearly as extremist as Greenpeace, but extremist enough to be a huge hinderance to progress in Chas. Their agenda is to prevent more development, make people ride bicycles (probably wanting to ban the automobile), and live "in harmony" with nature. Their actions have indirectly lead to more deaths on the southern section of US 17 by continuously obstructing the highway to be widened. They have kept more jobs from coming to the area by limiting corporations from building HQs or plants.

The alternatives do nothing to address the problem that the majority of traffic is driving to a destination. If they just want to build interconnecting roads, they will also need to build more bridges to interconnect the sections like West Ashley and James Island in order for the alternative solution to be effective. This makes their solution far costlier and more time consuming. The new roads will do nothing if they all have to meet with Main Road or Maybank.

Like I've said before, with proper zoning and the fact that Johns Island will only have 1 interchange, the island will not grow like East Cooper did. One thing is certain, you have other rural areas as well around Ravenel, Hollywood, Meggett, and Wadmalaw Island that will remain even after I-526 is completed.

January 4, 2008 at 10:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

longview (anonymous) says...

Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree about those guys. I just don't see evidence that the CCL has been responsible for deaths on the highway. Frankly, that seems like more than an exaggeration. What happens when groups like this fail to raise concern over proper development? That's when you get Folly Road at 5PM. I work in construction and recognize the dilemma that you are talking about but Development and Conservation can coexist. Agree? Perhaps you should start a Concerned Developers League with the goal of mowing over every last vestige of rural Charleston.
I don't mean for that to sound derogatory; as in previous posts, I agree that proper zoning is key to this entire debate. As raised by another poster though, what happens to the landowners who you force zoning on. Are you going to tell them "sorry, you can't subdivide your land and should expect 50 cents on the dollar from market rate"? Historically speaking, which I know you can relate to, this is not the precedent set by our fair state.
The fact that a group of engineers, no matter where they are from, has stated that an extension of the Mark Clark will make traffic WORSE, should at least be discussed. We only have one shot at getting this right. I am for all opinions to be brought to the table. I'd like to hear what the CDL would propose.
As for Meggett and Ravenel, consider the Mead Westvaco disaster that is about to happen and then tell me "they will remain".

January 4, 2008 at 10:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

My_50Cents_Worth (anonymous) says...

We are on the same page, bluecap and longview. The residents who will benefit most, gives the least to the community. Johns Island is a thoroughfare to gated community traffic.

Icbmman, are you proposing that anyone interested in keeping Johns Island rural should move to Ravenel, Hollywood, Meggett, and Wadmalaw Island?

January 4, 2008 at 11:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

charlestonian (anonymous) says...

Do you really think that the majority of the rush hour traffic which is the bulk of the traffic issue, is coming from Kiawah/Seabrook? The majority of the residents out there are not working or going to a 9 to 5 job every day. To keep saying that Kiawah/Seabrook is the main problem of traffic is a ridiculous argument. Johns Island is full of working class people that go work every day in there cars.

January 4, 2008 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

My_50Cents_Worth (anonymous) says...

Charlestonian,
Go to Bohicket Road any given day; in fact check out Betsy Kerrison Parkway any given moring for your reality check. Many residents of those island work everyday or are transporting their children to and from school[away from Kiawah/Seabrook/Johns Islands] everyday... Many of your fine doctors, lawyers, architects, businessmen/women and the like live on those islands. The islands are not retirement villages.

January 4, 2008 at 11:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

charlestonian (anonymous) says...

Try looking at popultion numbers for those islands vs Johns Island. Your theory of they are the majority of the problem doesn't pan out. I understand your distate for the rich, but they are not the problem here..

January 4, 2008 at 11:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

My_50Cents_Worth (anonymous) says...

Charlestonian:
I have considered the 'population' of those 2 islands plus the two newly developed gated communities that are located just before the islands vs. the population of [1] Johns Island. Of course my "distaste" for the rich is the basis of my 'argument' because I have nothing. You are the authority on island traffic; please forgive me for posting my observation.

Question: what will you give up in order to gain the highway you desire? I doubt very seriously you will experience some level personal loss. When one is in your position, it is easy to have an opinion to impose a plan that would cause others to lose not only personal property, but a way of life.

Now, I have heard your opinion and I find yours just as invalid and illogical as you find mine

January 4, 2008 at 12:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

icbmman (anonymous) says...

50 Cents, well, maybe people who truly want to live in the sticks need to move to places that are truly "in the sticks". Mixing rural and urban environments is a terrible idea, considering that no other city in the country has been capable of accomplishing that. As a matter of fact, it's impossible. The dichotomies of the two worlds are in such great contrast, that there is no feasible way to accomodate for growth and have pristine farmlands.

January 4, 2008 at 1:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

garymartinbrown (anonymous) says...

No one on either side sees the 500 lbs. gorrila in the room. Open your eyes and take a look.

This is not a new argument. Every major metropolitan area in the country has had and is having the same argument. Funny thing is, no one on either side of this issue bothers to cite the results of expressway solutions applied in other rapidly growing American cities.

For "icbmann," a bit of history...I challenge anyone to find a single, legitimate example in the United States of an inner-city expressway system designed to "relieve congestion" that actually HAS RELEIVED traffic congestion. In every instance (with the possible exception today of rust-belt cities that have lost population), building new and widening existing expressways has ONLY led to suburban sprawl, choked expressways, and eventually, an irreversable destruction of the qualities that attracted people to these areas in the first place. This pattern is particularly true in the high growth cities of the South--Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, the list goes on, which feature affluent suburbs. Charleston fits this template in every criteria. The bottom line is that inner-city expressways ENCOURAGE ugly, unsustainable real-estate developments that FOREVER change the character of those places. Next, we lose air quality, water quality (shrimp, fish, oyster beds, etc..) Don't take my word for it, do the research.

I watched this happen to my home town--Atlanta, GA--I heard the same arguments, the same childish name calling, back-biting, the lies, deceptions, false promises, bullying, politicizing, corruption. Why all this fuss about an expressway? It's profitable for those who build them and build around them. It NEVER solved Atlanta's traffic problems. Anyone who's been there enough knows that. Oh, that won't happen in Charleston? We're different? Famous last words.

So, what is Atlanta left with now? Destruction of quality of life, daily road rage, an inhospitable environment, high anxiety, not to mention unbrerathable air--the evidence- high asthma rates (Emory U. studied this during the 1996 Olympics and found that a greatly reduced auto traffic load during those two weeks coincided with a substantial drop in emergency treatment for asthma attacks. Those numbers spiked right back up to "normal" within days of the end of the Olympics!)

People used to move to Atlanta for the friendly people, trees, relaxed quality of life. None of that exists any more. The fools prevailed there, and if they prevail here, you will have only yourselves to blame for the destruction of Charleston. The irony is that the ones who call so loudly for these failed solutions are the same ones who so cherish Charleston's rich quality of life and unique history.

Is it inevitble? Will the fools prevail? Maybe "icbmman" above is right...Charleston was meant to be a "megacity."

Brother, be careful what you wish for.

January 4, 2008 at 1:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

garymartinbrown (anonymous) says...

icbmman...CCL has no more to do with traffic deaths on 17S than you do with Charleston's quality of life. Most accidents are caused by people driving to fast for conditions. If CCL is "extremist," then what would call Charleston's secessionists of the 1850's-1860's? Or of the Patriots who sacrificed their estates during the Revolution to win independence? Surely preventing C'ton from becoming like Houston, Dallas, Atlanta, etc. is as worthy a fight as at least one of the others was. But, alas, fools politicize quality of life issues. I've heard the anti-progress drone before...It is COMPLETELY unsupported by any legitimate evidence. I recommend that if you want to live in a polluted, congested city, that you move to one of the afore-mentioned communities, and leave Charleston alone.

January 4, 2008 at 1:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

icbmman (anonymous) says...

Gary, all you've done is increase the level of the same rhetoric that many obstructionists already pontificate for years. The fact is that Chas is getting bigger, whether you like it or not. Expressways are a reality in all major cities, and they should fully connect sections within the a city's metropolitan area.

And you are dead wrong about the CCL. Since the CCL prohibited US 17 widening the 80s and 90s, more people have died, not because of high rates of speed, but because of head-on collisions. Most were just coincidental hits since the cars were to close to the line. CCL's constant interference in infrastructure improvement helped keep the highway dangerous, resulting in more deaths.

For posts like the ones you just gave, you must be a CCL plant.

January 4, 2008 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

PHiers (anonymous) says...

Speaking of history....
1) A small group of folks downtown were primarily responsible for the James Island connector bridge taking 30+ years to be built.
Sound familiar.....Do we want to repeat history here?
2) There used to be a multitude of side streets through neighborhoods throughout the West Ashley and James Island areas, now they are either blocked to through traffic or filled with speed humps.
And now someone from outside the area comes here to tell us we need to open these streets back up? Can we start with the blocked off streets at S. Windemere?

Now the current situation....
3) How are using side streets going to provide a second route for the residents of Johns, Wadmalaw, Kiawah, and Seabrook Islands for hurricane evacuation?
Currently the official state evacuation route is over the Limehouse bridge only, a 2 lane bridge. Don't even think that the state is going to allow the use of the Gelegotis bridge (Stono) onto James Island for the evacuation of the other islands.
4) Where is the input from the folks who sit in traffic daily on Savannah Hwy and St Andrews Blvd? Where is the input from the business owners in those areas whose business suffers due to customers being unable to get to these businesses due to bumper-to-bumper traffic?
Remember, currently many of these existing side streets are full of speed humps or road blocks.
5) How again are side streets going to help the folks who live outside I-526 and work downtown?
Many people are already using alternate routes where they can. Haven't you heard all the complaints from the folks living along Riverland Dr for example.
6) Perhaps these environmental groups ought to be thinking about the amounts of pollution put in the air when cars are idling on Savannah Hwy and St Andrews Blvd.
7) There are already concrete plans using the half-cent sales tax money to make improvements/widening at Maybank Hwy, Main Road, Maybank/Folly intersections, etc. However, those improvements will not help with the Savannah Hwy and St Andrews Blvd situation. Nor will they help with other current problems like the traffic through S. Windemere or with hurricane evacuation.

January 4, 2008 at 2:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

icbmman (anonymous) says...

Actually, garymartinbrown, I think the city needs to consider light rail/monorail mass transit IN ADDITION TO interconnected roads and the I-526 extension. The problem with our government is that they only think one-dimensionally. Solving a complex problem like this requires a multi-faceted approach with several strategies all complementing each other. Only if we accomplish infrastructure in this manner can we prevent Chas from becoming bad examples like Atlanta and Houston. However, gary, your comparison of Chas turning into these cities is just ridiculous. Chas will need THOUSANDS more high-paying jobs before it can even become as high growth as those cities you mentioned.

PHiers, all good questions. Your first one can be answered, though: the James Island connector was always meant to be a part of the Mark Clark Expressway. They just built this section first.

January 4, 2008 at 2:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

icbmman (anonymous) says...

PHiers, after re-reading your post, now I understand what you were trying to say with your first question. And you are dead right. Do we really want the I-526 extension to take decades more to be built? How much longer must we talk, discuss, and gab before taking action?

January 4, 2008 at 2:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

bartdj1964 (anonymous) says...

I had the chance to view CCL's Web site no526.com. Where were they when it came through West Ashley? Shutdown 526 now and you'll here from everyone. If you want to stop growth in your neighborhood, then do that. I am sure everyone in that area has benefited going to the North Area via 526 through my neighborhood. I have learned to live with this and I am sure Johns and James Island will too. James Island is a "Big City" now, if they don't want sprawl then do what you need to do and elect leaders to control it. Restricted needed infrastructure that benefits everyone isn't your solution. I am sure James Island is happy to have the connector (Which is Part of the MC. You can't have the connector all to yourself anymore than West Ashley could have the Westmoreland Bridge to themselves. If you want to live in the country, move there. If you didn't want John's I land to grow the way it has you should have fought this battle a long time ago. To late now and the people that live there want solutions not alternatives that offer nothing. CCL, if you are trying to garner support outside of John's Island, it might help to list your alternatives on your site. Otherwise the only thing your site is, is a Big sign with NIMBY on it.

January 4, 2008 at 3:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

PHiers (anonymous) says...

If you look at who is involved in the opposition, it is either outsiders or a small group from Johns and Wadmalaw Islands who live and work on the islands. The rest of us are too busy working and commuting to have time for workshops and such.
As everyone knows, after years of neighborhood complaints about commuters using their streets as an alternate route most of the neighborhoods around West Ashley and James Island now have deadends and speed humps to DISCOURAGE through traffic. Notice that was not mentioned in the article.
If you look at the location where the last leg of the Mark Clark was proposed since the original design, it is between the foot of the Stono/Gelegotis bridge and the River Rd Maybank Hwy intersection. Hardly anywhere near the center of Johns Island. The real incentive to future development on Johns Island will be carrying the sewer service infrastructure out into the rural boundary areas.

January 4, 2008 at 3:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

icbmman (anonymous) says...

PalmettoMan, you hit the nail on the head. All of those interconnected roads will do nothing except provide accessibility to more developable land, and they still won't address the traffic that will be coming on and off the island, also completely ignoring the traffic build-ups West Ashley and on James Island.

January 4, 2008 at 4:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

icbmman (anonymous) says...

However, I do disagree with your 2nd post. I think those are typical NIMBY responses that fit right in line with the anti-I526 crowd.

January 4, 2008 at 4:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

rollo (anonymous) says...

I'm wondering who this "expert" Paul Moore is. He claims that the 526 completion will "dump too much traffic onto Calhoun St". Has he seen the connector?
Does he understand that once one crosses the Ashley River on the connector that one has only two choices as to where to be "Dumped"?
Does this "expert" not realize that everyone who exits the connector onto Calhoun St does so because that it the route to their destination? Taking that as fact, it doesn't matter what route a driver takes to arrive at Calhoun St, he is going there for a reason, as long as that reason exists, that is where our driver will go! Whether he has ti drive a completed expressway or through other peoples neighborhoods.
Silliness and tomfoolery, wasted time and money... and the P&C is right in the middle, stirrin' the puddin'.

January 4, 2008 at 5 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

rollo (anonymous) says...

Two stories in two days by the P&C taking the same testimony from different "experts" employed by the same firm! This is no co-incidence. It seems obvious that someone is out to undermine the existing traffic plan, and they don't want to explain why. It looks to me like the plan is to take more private land from more private property owners along the Stono for the supposed purpose of building more bridges. And once that land is acquired, who can force the construction of the new bridges? The former property owner?

I didn't see the other story yesterday, I found it by searching charleston.net for " 526 completion ". (it's becoming clear to me now why this forum does not support HTML)

January 4, 2008 at 6:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

obtuseyankee (anonymous) says...

as a proud Vermonter who has been dispaced from an influx of interloping "me and mine", here are some reality checks. Johns Island has plenty of "rich" people of it's own who stand to get richer when the deal gets done. To think that there will be only one interchange is folly. Once the road is built the delopement lobby will get their way and an another ramp will be added. To think that development wont happen is folly. It is already happening. The smart plan is to convince your politians to pass high impact fees to pay for this infrastructure so that the working class already living in the area don't have to shoulder the burden of progress like whats happening in Dorchester county. The same people who are migrating here are the same people who have turned my former state of Vermont into a high tax liberal playground for trustfund babies and pedophiles looking for a safe haven. If you want to keep these people out and make them look elsewhere then heed my warning. Vote for polititians that actually have a plan to appease the people who have to drive in the madness while structuring the growth to a level which actually coincides with infrastucture developement. Pay no attention to the so called experts which have infiltrated and highjacked the debate. Growth is inevitable and the nimbys need to live with it. The people who stand to gain the most riches are the ones you need to watch. Once they get their way, the "not rich" will be the ones having to leave. On a personal note I don't believe anyone involved in this process can manage to pass gas at a bean eating contest. The 526 project has been rife with cost overruns and faulty construction from the start. It is coming though and unless the planners get smart, many people will be looking for homes in other places just to get away from the "me and mine" that is surely coming.

January 4, 2008 at 11:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

icbmman (anonymous) says...

Obtusey, I don't understand your logic. Look at the route the expressway is supposed to take. How in the world can another interchange be developed? The only place to put an interchange is where PHiers earlier indicated: in between the Stono bridge and the Maybank/River road intersection at Maybank Highway. The highway veers toward James Island soon afterwards. It does not make Johns Island a direct destination, but it does provide travelers with access. Please give proof into how and where more interchanges can possibly be built.

January 5, 2008 at 2:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )

jamesislander (anonymous) says...

I am in favor of the bridge, more smaller roads that inteconnect and the addition of an interchange as soon as the highway hits Johns Island from James Island. It needs to connect close to Plowground Road, which needs to be improved to 4 lanes. Ross Perot wanted to make a toll road called the "cross island connector" which this could have tied into back inthe early 90's. CCL and it likes deterred that as well. How about all of the death's that occur on a regualr basis on River & Bohicket roads....I think CCL is responsible there too... The whole "urban growth boundary" to me is a taking of proerty rights and is BS. The female who was just spanked in the last election for City Council blessed us with many of the probelms Johns Island has now. I am glad she is gone.

January 11, 2008 at 12:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )