Marine life in peril
Health of dolphins, loggerheads harmed by contaminants
Deborah Laska-Shelton/NOAA-NOS
Researchers found nearly four times as many unhealthy dolphins in 2005 than they did in 2003 in a survey of the health of Charleston Harbor dolphins.
The blubber of dolphins swimming in Charleston Harbor holds some of the worst concentrations of a man-made flame retardant ever recorded in the mammals. And half of the tested dolphins weren't healthy.
Loggerhead turtles studied along the South Carolina coast have concentrations of a stain repellent that laboratory animal tests suggest weakens the immune system, making them more vulnerable to diseases, and damages the liver. Tests on humans elsewhere have shown the same concentrations of the repellent.
The gleaming waters of the Lowcountry aren't as clean as they seem. Everyday life is leaching into them "contaminants of emerging concern," a catch-phrase that includes chemicals used in products such as carpets, furniture, Gore-Tex clothes, non-stick pans, plastic casings and automobile trim.
The pollutants are pervasive, but these chemical compounds are mostly unstudied, much less monitored or cleaned up. Studies now under way suggest they might be a bigger danger to human health than realized. Tests by Charleston-area researchers suggest the health of marine animals here already has been affected.
Chemicals like PBDEs, the flame retardant, and PFCs, the stain repellent, are absorbed by humans who handle the products. They also eventually end up as waste, washing through the sewage system into the estuary and its wildlife, into recreational waters and the food chain. The Environmental Protection Agency now considers PBDE and PFC suspected carcinogens, or cancer-causing agents.
They're not the only ones out there.
"There are tens of thousands of chemicals that we have put into production that we have virtually no data on. We know a lot about a handful of chemicals, but there a lot we don't have the data on to know whether they're safe or not," said Sarah Janssen, a scientist with environmental advocate Natural Resources Defense Council in San Francisco.
"We're realizing how ubiquitous these chemicals are, in our homes, our offices, our cars. Everywhere we turn we're exposed to these chemicals."
"We really know very little about the effects of these chemicals in humans," said Antonia Calafat, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention lead research chemist, about PBDEs and PFCs. "What we do know is in the U.S., people are widely exposed to them."
The dolphins and loggerheads are among animals being tested for a number of pollutants in ongoing research projects into estuary and ocean health and the impact on humans at Fort Johnson. The Hollings Marine Laboratory, the National Ocean Services lab, the S.C. Department of Natural Resources and the Medical University of South Carolina all have taken part in the research.
The researchers are finding a range of the chemicals of concern, from antibiotics to pesticides, that don't easily break down in the environment, including the two compounds. They're also finding trouble.
"We're using sea turtles as sentinels to indicate the environmental health of the coastal region. If we see harm in sea turtles living along our coast, it could indicate harm in the human population," said Jennifer Keller, a National Institute of Standards and Technology research biologist at the Hollings lab.
"We were very surprised at how sensitive the immune system is to these compounds," Keller said about PFCs. "We never expected that. We never expected animals to be harmed at levels commonly seen (in dolphins) and seen in humans."
Meanwhile, of 90 dolphins tested from 2003 to 2005 in Charleston Harbor that had PBDEs and other contaminants, nearly half weren't considered healthy. Most of them were diagnosed with a virus. Not only that, researchers found nearly four times as many unhealthy dolphins in 2005 as they did in 2003.
"There are effects on thyroid and sex hormones from PBDEs. That's more or less what we know about them," said Wilfried Karmaus, a University of South Carolina epidemiology professor who studied the compounds in Michigan. "PBDEs are banned in Europe but not in the United States. The problem is, we do not have any human data about these substances in South Carolina."
Studying the contaminants gets very complex very quickly because there's a mix of them in the body, said Pat Fair, Living Marine Resources Branch Chief at the NOAA lab, one of the researchers.
"But (research) is more important because there's a mixture. We all have a combination of contaminants that we're exposed to and are carrying around with us. They each have their own toxicity; but in combination, the toxicities may be enhanced. Currently any adverse effects of their interaction is unknown," she said.
The concern is growing. 3M Corp. has taken some types of PFCs out of production because of environmental issues. Maine and California have banned some types of PBDEs. Legislation is being considered in Michigan to do the same. In Washington state, health officials are considering requiring landfills in which dead orcas and other sea mammals are buried to be declared toxic because of the concentrations in the carcasses of persistent organic pollutants such as PBDEs, said Lynne Barre, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration marine mammal specialist.
Karmaus believes the chemicals found in Charleston Harbor animals must be coming from a local source.
No legislation is in the works or being considered in South Carolina dealing with PBDEs or PFCs that the S.C. Department Health and Environmental Control is aware of, said Thom Berry, department media relations director.
Pollutants from things you use every day
Pollutants from everyday products found in Lowcountry dolphins or loggerhead turtles:
PFC (perfluorinated compounds)
What it is: Stain repellent.
Used in: Teflon products, Gore-Tex clothing, food packaging and paper, shampoos, dental floss, denture cleaners. Used until 2002 in Scotchguard-treated clothing, furniture and carpet products.
Threats: EPA suspected carcinogen. Linked in lab animal tests to kidney and liver damage, reproductive problems.
Source: The Toxic-Free Legacy Coalition
PBDE, (polybrominated diphenyl ethers)
What it is: Flame retardant
Used in: Carpets, carpet pads, foam cushions, computer and other plastic casings, automobile trim, adhesives and other products.
Threats: EPA suspected carcinogen. Linked in lab animal tests to brain development problems, thyroid hormone problems.
Levels in humans: In the United States 10 to 100 times higher than in Europe. Levels doubling in the U.S. every 2-5 years.
Source: Washington State Department of Ecology
Reach Bo Petersen at 745-5852 or bpetersen@postandcourier.com.
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Comments
Paul (anonymous) says...
We need to take action on all the industries and local governments to clean and restore our environment, while drastically reducing polutants.
February 28, 2008 at 6:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
moonpie (anonymous) says...
Ban PBDEs all together then. This is alarming. There is a reason auto-immune diseases are rampant in humans. I know 10 people over the last 3 yrs that have been told they have some auto-immune disease? Something is making us sick. I even posted a question to the CDC and of course 10 people is no concern to them. This is 10 people I knew! The circle could be a lot larger.
February 28, 2008 at 6:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Yes, we need to outlaw flame retardants for sure. And dihydrogen monoxide is the most widely used chemical compound and one of the deadliest chemical compounds on the planet, responsible for untold numbers of deaths each year, yet congress refuses to do anything about it because of the greedy and evil corporations need for ever more profits! Write your congress critter today and make them force big business to stop using this deadly chemical!
February 28, 2008 at 6:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CedarPosts (anonymous) says...
Does this surprise you? Doesn't surprise me and I for one wouldn't think of swimming in the harbor or the Wando, Cooper or Ashley Rivers.
February 28, 2008 at 7:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Clemson1979 (anonymous) says...
Lowcountry..you have nothing to worry about. Greenville/Anderson has Lake Hartwell. If a dolphin was in Hartwell, it would have 2 heads and wings.
February 28, 2008 at 7:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
crankyyankee (anonymous) says...
As a fisherman who has witnessed the wanton killing of red drum and trout by these animals, it's hard to feel sorry for them!
February 28, 2008 at 7:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dude (anonymous) says...
Major Johnson is trying (emphasize trying) to be funny- dihydrogen monoxide is H20-water. Lame.
February 28, 2008 at 7:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
JohnQ you are a total idiot. What is DHEC supposed to do about Teflon frying pans, clothing and furniture treated with flame retardants, dental floss and dental cleaners? Ban them from the state? Federal law requires flame retardants be used in infants sleepwear. Would you rather people burn to death than accept a minute level of a chemical that hasn't even yet been proven to be harmful at these levels?
You just seem to get more ridiculous on a daily basis. But then, you are one of the socio-fascists who think we should all be rubbing our hands together for heat and going without lights at night in order to destroy the evil wicked energy industry.
February 28, 2008 at 7:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
crankyyankee (anonymous) says...
It's Bush and those oil companies fault!
February 28, 2008 at 7:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LocalHero (anonymous) says...
Crankyyankee said:
"As a fisherman who has witnessed the wanton killing of red drum and trout by these animals, it's hard to feel sorry for them!"
What "animals" are you referring to? Mankind I assume....
February 28, 2008 at 8:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
swcjr (anonymous) says...
Please everyone stay out/off of the water. Fisherman and go fast boaters alike. As you can tell the environment is unsafe for use. There needs to be signs around the harbor- 'caution: dihyrogen monoxide present' (that's good MJ) in spanish also.
Of course I am kidding. But if this article is good for something it may keep some people in their homes based on the scare tactic in use. More room for me on the harbor. My harbor. I am so happy I lost my Corporate polluter job, now I have time to blog, and sail.
If I can make another suggestion- people: stop buying chemicals, it is killing us.
February 28, 2008 at 8:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greener1 (anonymous) says...
Hey, at least they won't burn!!!
February 28, 2008 at 8:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
toastchee (anonymous) says...
I coated my new house in dolfin skin and smoke copiously inside.
February 28, 2008 at 8:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
There is no other kind of socio-fascist JohnQ. Go back to studying your heroes Mussolini and Chavez.
February 28, 2008 at 8:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
swcjr (anonymous) says...
Good example of our ever growing dependency on guv'mut to fix every single one of our problems. JohnQ has forgiven his freedom and liberties based on what this story 'suggests'. Certainly competition and capitalism will provide an answer, not guv'mut. If we consumers demand things cleaner, it will be produced cleaner. I just read about a river, the han, in china that was red and foamy. This is result of a guv'mut environmental policy. Talk about not swimming...
P&C- this story would be more effective if there was a picture of a turtle also.
February 28, 2008 at 9:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greyrider (anonymous) says...
As beautiful as the Lowcountry is, it's a shame the same can't be said for the surrounding waterways. This is a real problem, but please keep the activists away. We need solutions, not rhetoric, and not political diatribes.
February 28, 2008 at 9:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shoebaby77 (anonymous) says...
swcjr.....you are an idiot. Yes the Han in China is red and foamy due to a government environmental policy, but it is a government environmental policy that doesn't give a crap about the people of China. As a nation supposedly "for the people, by the people" we demand a little more from our government in protecting us than a communist government could ever provide. That crap you bought at Wal-Mart yesterday added a little more red and foam to China's rivers. You should thank them for that.
February 28, 2008 at 9:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
512c (anonymous) says...
And why is Hemp not in production????
This is the Dow (Tao) of things.
February 28, 2008 at 9:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
Think about it. According to the press, nothing is good for you...nothing that you eat, drink, wear, use, or produce. Very little in the last 40 years has escaped examination and declaration as tainted as poisonous, illegal, or immoral. That being the case and since you must eat, drink, or use something, it's no wonder that so many people live with so many fears. Is it better to live with roaches crawling all over your kitchen or to live with the chemicals that you can use to keep the roaches out? For me, bring on the chemicals. Do I drink the tap water with chlorine in it or the water that smells of sulfer and has fecal material in it. For me, I like chlorine. I've been eating from the local waters all of my life, and I have no idea where the seafood in the store originates. Give me local.
February 28, 2008 at 9:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CaptKick (anonymous) says...
Quit complaining about the Government and the Ships - Look in the mirror! You are ALL part of the problem. Clean up your own back yard first. Quit using ALL the products that contribute to the problem - Then you will have a right to complain!
February 28, 2008 at 9:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trod1 (anonymous) says...
The waters around Charleston have always been polluted. Eat anything that comes out of the waters around here at your own risk. The ships that come in and out of our harbor bring water from all over the world to our harbor. The water carried in the bilge is a mix of water from everywhere they have been. Actually the maritime laws have changed i think they have to pump water in either fed/international waters.they defiantly are not allowed to discharge their bilge while in port
February 28, 2008 at 9:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ArrBee (anonymous) says...
Years ago (early to mid nineties), wasn't there an episode of spontaneously combusting shrimp that were caught in the Ashley river (adjacent to the old Albright-Wilson chemical plant in the neck area)?
Pre-cooked, eh!
February 28, 2008 at 9:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
swcjr (anonymous) says...
shoebaby please no name calling. It is childish and not a way to make a convincing argument for your point. Now I will rip apart all your other points:
-your assumption that the guv'mut cares is halarious, That somehow our 'people' are special to guv'mut. example: katrina
-the excerpt from Lincoln's address really doesn't mean much in these parts.
-I was not at w-mart yesterday.
February 28, 2008 at 10:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BluesFan (anonymous) says...
If you don't think these chemicals are dangerous, you might want to know that monkeys dosed with them all died in less than 3 weeks into a 90 day study back in 1979....
http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/23/18/23...
February 28, 2008 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
What a great idea. BOO! Don't get on or in the water and do not touch the seafood, especially the crabs, oysters, and shrimp. BOO! Go get big brother government who has solved poverty, crime, immigration, and performance enhancing drugs in major league baseball. BOO!
February 28, 2008 at 10:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rmsems (anonymous) says...
I fully agree with CaptKick:
Start in your own back yard, stop spraying, stop using all those cleaning containers (vinegar and baking soda are just about all you need for cleaning -- may even save you a couple of bucks), stop going to Walmart and anywhere else where Chinese products are sold, stop buying those leather shoes, sofas etc. which were treated with Chromium 6, don't buy a new car every other year, don't buy your kids all those colorful plastic toys -- old-fashioned wood toys are just as good, go for a walk and turn off the TV once in a while, do buy all those clothes which are sprayed with fire retardants and don't you know, you can order your sofa without scotchgard, same applies to carpets (there are over one hundred carcinogens found in modern day carpets)--but you know what?! Greed and keeping up with the Jones' prevents all of you from buying a little less, but better quality or made in the US.
February 28, 2008 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
swcjr (anonymous) says...
Bluesfan, Thanks for the link to the 350 page study on pfos(is that the same as what this article is talking about?) I briefly perused it. This P&C article doesn't talk amounts but the link is siting levels of contaminates in parts per million, ppm. Levels of 1 and 5 and 20 ppm are apples and bananas in comparison to a monkey being doused in a similar substances! Don't you think? BEing doused is say 10' of dihydrogen monoxide could be hazardous to health. But drinking a cool glass of ice water can be quite refreshing
February 28, 2008 at 11:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BluesFan (anonymous) says...
Check out this report (much shorter) ...done on humans in Washington state...gives you a reference point as to what levels are considered high (and that are actually seen in normal people).
http://www.pollutioninpeople.org/
February 28, 2008 at 11:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BreezinIAm (anonymous) says...
Oh, what's a few suspected carcinogens when we want to throw the welcome mat out to industry?
I'm happy that Duke Energy can brag that "over $4.8 billion in pulp and paper manufacturing revenues are shipped from the Carolinas each year, placing the Carolinas third in the industry for dollars shipped."
I'm secretly thrilled that SC leads the Carolina league in paper production (thousands of tons per year):
North Carolina-1,058
South Carolina-1,989
And I'm confident that our state legislature will continue the love fest: "South Carolina has one of the most attractive tax climates in the Southeast-no state property tax, no local income tax, no inventory tax, no wholesale tax, and no unitary tax on worldwide profits."
PBDE's? PFC's? No human data about these substances in South Carolina? Let's stay calm and stupid.
Or else we could ask a lot of questions.
Quick note from up the road: The Coastal Observer Online (Pawley's Island) featured a nice, big, ugly pic of a stormwater drain on their front page and an article describing how volunteers are joining forces to monitor water quality in a university-supervised program. Seven tidal-creek sites. Bi-weekly water samples. An impressive start.
One other note: I owe my support, education - life - to heavy industry. I've seen my father spend sleepless nights figuring out smokestack scrubbers to remove particulates and the components to recirculate discharges cleanly. We need the brilliance of industry. We don't need excuses.
February 28, 2008 at 11:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Girleygirl (anonymous) says...
I'm still buying me some blue crabs this weekend.
Coldbeer You get the shrimp and oysters!
February 28, 2008 at 11:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MAJMIKEY (anonymous) says...
John Q
You're such a big man behind that key board.
I bet you wouldn't have the courage to say the same things in person. Since MAJ J in deployed I will give you the chance. Name the time and place this weekend. That of course would require you to put down your dungeon and dragons game. It might even require you to step away from your lord of the rings DVD. I hate to waste a flash back so early in the year, but the VA says I am allowed one per year. I can't think of a better way to spend it.
February 28, 2008 at 12:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
little_green_person (anonymous) says...
"In Germany they came first for the Communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist. Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist. Then they came for the Catholics, and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant. Then they came for me, and by that time no one was left to speak up."
Martin Niemoller
It doesn't matter what things look like from our individual perspectives. Things are interconnected. Niemoller wasn't specifically talking about the environment, but he understood the logic of survival.
It all starts with one person.
And I'm still eating oysters. There are worse ways to die!
February 28, 2008 at 1:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
When DDT was being used in Africa malaria had almost been eradicated. They outlawed it and millions of people have died since and malaria has regained it's role as one of the great preventable disease. It has now been determined that DDT has no negative effect on humans. This do good with no intelligence action resulted in the deaths of millions. This was spearheaded by socio-fascists like JohnQ, who didn't have all the facts but acted anyway.
John Edwards made tens of millions suing doctors because he claimed that not doing C-sections caused children to be born with cerebral palsy. Now a huge number of children are born via very expensive C-section not because they need to be, but to avoid the massive payouts. Natural birth is now known to have no link to cerebral palsy. This cause was pushed by socio-fascists who didn't have all the facts but acted anyway.
Silicon breast implant lawsuits destroyed quite a few very large companies, destroying jobs and shareholder investments for peoples retirement. The complaints ranged from hair loss and memory loss to lupus and arthritis. Silicon breast implants were later found to have no relation to any systemic disease. This cause was pushed by socio-fascists who didn't have all the facts but acted anyway.
In 2001 4 firefighters died because fire fighting helicopters were not allowed to dip water from the Chewuch river. The bucket might have dipped up some endangered salmon who live in that river. This cause was pushed by socio-fascists like JohnQ, who prefer to save a few fish over saving the lives of fire fighters.
In California people were not allowed to clear fire breaks around their homes because rats lived in the flammable brush that would be cleared. Millions of dollars worth of homes and possessions were destroyed in the wildfires that resulted, along with the death of the rats. This cause was pushed by socio-fascists like JohnQ, who prefer feel good ridiculous protection of rats to the protection peoples homes and investments.
Lets let JohnQ and his ilk run the country. We'll all be dead soon and the planet will be saved.
February 28, 2008 at 1:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
When it's gone, we will not know what to fear next.
February 28, 2008 at 2:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
buttercup (anonymous) says...
ColdBeer and GirleyGirl Damn Damn you guys, you have got me wanting blue crabs and shrimp. I have been trying to stay away from seafood. I guess I will break down and pick up some for the weekend. I don't do oysters."LOL"
February 28, 2008 at 2:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mosinfan (anonymous) says...
majorjohnson,
I heard the distinct sound of a hammer hitting a nail squarely on the head. Well put!
February 28, 2008 at 2:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
blah_blah_blah (anonymous) says...
DNR's budget consists of 0.25% of the state budget. Where do you think SC's priorities are?
The environment is what sustains us. I don't mean to sound like a hippie here, but, I can't think of a better argument to make to take a little better care of it.
February 28, 2008 at 3:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Golly gee TP...hard to stand up against comments like that, but JohnQ is obviously smarter. He presents your same style argument full of intelligent rebuttal and witticisms, but has the additional maturity to refer to me in true Michael Savage style as Majordouchebag.
February 28, 2008 at 3:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MAJMIKEY (anonymous) says...
TP
I don't ever remember in my post disagreeing with you or anyone else that we need to protect the environment. I don't ever remember saying anything about "ass kicking" . I have a better idea TP. Instead of wasting our time writing pointless post on the web why don't we organize a Saturday when we can all pick up trash along both rivers? That way the cowards like John Q can put his money where his mouth is and call myself and MAJ J all the bad names he wants to in person.
February 28, 2008 at 3:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MAJMIKEY (anonymous) says...
Cold beer
Lets get the strippers to stop tossing there implants in the water. Problem solved. I managed to get cold beer, strippers, and breast implants in the same post I wish this was scrabble
February 28, 2008 at 3:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Hey blah...the money that could be allocated to DNR (and DHEC) is tied up fighting environment lawsuits, like the suits to prevent power plant development. The suers don't want coal plants, they don't want the trees cut down to allow enough more expensive and land consuming solar energy plants, they don't want the bird killing vista destroying noisy windmill plants (like the ones that just put Texas out of power because they are so dependant on wind power and the wind quit when they needed the energy most during a cold spell). They prefer you wash your clothes with rocks down at the pristine river.
I don't own a television, an air conditioner, a cell phone, a dishwasher or a clothes dryer, and I drive about 100 miles a month thanks to working from home. It's not because I'm some environmental wacko, it's because I don't feel the need for them. I have 5 computers because that's how I make my living, else I probably wouldn't have them, and only my servers run full time. Compared to that of JohnQ and TP, two who are no doubt entirely against a new power plant, my electrical footprint is probably next to nothing. I'm all for the new power plant. They want the power, they just don't want the power plant to supply it. They want clothes, they just hate the industries that supply them either because those industries make too much money or hurt the environment. They want to drive their cars but they hate the oil companies that crack the gas, supply jobs, do the research and increase peoples retirement accounts because they make billions, while they love the government that makes about 3 times as much money off the same gas from corporate taxation of the oil industry and excise taxes while doing none of the work, supplying none of the jobs, doing none of the research and making people pay into retirement (SSI) that is nothing more than a ponzi scheme (which government has outlawed).
You better wake up bud.
February 28, 2008 at 3:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Girleygirl (anonymous) says...
You can't eat eggs because of cholestrol levels, you can't eat beef because it sits in your system for 7 years, chickens are on steroids. According to health and food experts the only thing we need to keep eating is chocolate. I can't wait for Easter I will be alive and FIT.
Coldbeer- I have to get me some more oysters before I can't stand to eat them anymore as well...Buttercup why don't you like oysters?
MajMikey- that was classic...lol
February 28, 2008 at 3:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
http://www.epa.gov/history/publicatio...
DDT was used in Vietnam In agent Orange. you tell the Vets that it's Good For Them.
February 28, 2008 at 3:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Whats more, those excise fees are supposed to go to maintenence and building of roadways. While the infrastructure rots, those funds are going to building new highways that aren't needed, tea pot and legume museums, walking trails, bike paths, city stoplights, inner city busses, visitor centers, bridges to nowhere...in other words, those funds are being diverted to local congressional projects that get congress critters votes instead of maintaining federal transportation infrastructure. And excise fees alone amount to more of your gas dollar than oil company profits do. At least the oil company profits are better used than the government excise fee profits, but JohnQ and TP prefer it be wasted by government than supply someone with a private retirement fund.
GOP critters are as guilty as democrat socio-facists, but then, there isn't much difference between the parties anymore. The only real difference is that the GOP is the evangelical wing of the socio-fascist party.
February 28, 2008 at 3:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
buttercup (anonymous) says...
Girleygirl I ate so many oysters when I was growing up I swore when I got grown I would never eat another oyster. My Dad raised us kids on seafood was free for the taking and filled our little tummies.
February 28, 2008 at 3:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MAJMIKEY (anonymous) says...
John Q
Lets go Johnny Q name the place
February 28, 2008 at 4:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Girleygirl (anonymous) says...
LMAO- Coldbeer are you talking about me?
February 28, 2008 at 4:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
If you bothered to actually read that link Chris, you would see that it mentions agent orange as "one of several other pesticides." Agent orange is an herbicide, not a pesticide, and it contains no DDT. Further, this page is about EPA involvement up to 1973 and has no mention of studies past that point. It also points out that this was largely a point of public, not scientific, influence. That public influence was due to the Environmental Defense Fund, a socio-fascist group which was responsible for publication of scare stories that had no relation to scientific studies as I stated in my previous post, and as I also pointed out it has resulted in multiple millions of deaths. You might want to actually think as you read these things, as something that refers to an herbicide as a pesticide should immediately raise a red flag. Obviously government is doing it's best to protect us and present the real facts while confusing a butt hole for a hole in the dirt. I'm sure JohnQ will let us know that this was President Bush's doing in order to protect the profits from companies which have produced neither DDT or agent orange for a generation.
As far as agent orange, the offending factor was 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin...this is not DDT, it is TCDD. It is a byproduct created in the synthesis of 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T) which is produced to destroy broad leafed vegetation, which is what agent orange was composed of primarily. TCDD is a dioxin. DDT is not. TCDD is neither an herbicide nor a pesticide, it's a dioxin that just occurs in the synthesis of (2,4,5-T), which is an excellent herbicide and innocuous. I did a paper on this when I was obtaining my chemical engineering degree.
February 28, 2008 at 4:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Girleygirl (anonymous) says...
Buttercup- I just can't get tired of oysters & I wish your dad gave me to the child abuse you had to go through.... :>)
February 28, 2008 at 4:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Once again JohnQ remains on topic and supplies the brilliant rebuttal of not only accusing me of being a gay looking for sex in public bathrooms but of being a republican.
If I posted an anti-gay thing he would probably accuse me of the same thing. Pro-gay post, same thing. Anti-GOP, pro-GOP, ditto. I think JohnQ is very mixed up. He obviously isn't paying attention...time for your meds John!
For the record, I dislike republicans only slightly less than I dislike democrats. As far as my sexual orientation is concerned, if you aren't asking me for a date it's none of your business.
February 28, 2008 at 5:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
walleyedwoman1215 (anonymous) says...
ColdBeer, per your "damned if we do, damned if we don't" post, I'm now so depressed I need to go watch "Old Yeller" to cheer up.
February 28, 2008 at 5:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Hey allwoman...socialist, liberal, fascist and democrat are all the same thing anymore. Republican and conservative are merging with that group as we speak. They are all derogatory as far as I'm concerned. They have all lost the point that we are not a democracy but a constitutional republic, and both the constitutional and republic portions are being tossed to the roadside. Both republicans and democrats are somehow finding a constitutional right to individual votes for president that do not exist in the constitution or the bill of rights. That's all that need be said to point out that none of them have a clue what they are doing.
February 28, 2008 at 5:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Hey walleyed...after this I could watch "Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf" and be uplifted.
February 28, 2008 at 5:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
Major johnson is TCDD a Byproduct of Burning Agent orange.
February 28, 2008 at 5:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Nice of you go clear that up JohnQ. The implied sexual act between myself and another poster in a public bathroom in relation to any comments that I've made is very clear now. You must work for the EPA. Please take note that I am not a pesticide, herbicide or dioxin, and do try not to confuse the sexual activities you imagine me to have with people I've never met with chemistry in your next government funded paper.
February 28, 2008 at 5:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
KidYendor (anonymous) says...
As long as China keeps building coal-fired power plants to drift mercury all over the world and forces their own people to wear masks on their way to work you can clean up lots of things but it won't matter much when everything is contaminated by China. I am glad I'll just watch the Olympics on TV.
February 28, 2008 at 6 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
http://www.ehponline.org/docs/1996/10...
See Burning remnants of War...Chemicalweapons convention...Do you Know that the EPA Reclassified these old weapons to be burned as Hazardous waste. So That Means they can Be burned at your local hazardous waste incineratoror Chemical plant. It Produces the Dioxins that the major has mentioned.
February 28, 2008 at 6 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
And Usually The responsible parties are in charge of testing and cleaning up the Contaminated sites Not the EPA,DHEC etc..
February 28, 2008 at 6:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
No Chris. It's a byproduct of the synthesis/degeneration of phenoxyl herbicides which came to be know as agent orange. There were a number of these compounds used, the most used were called agent orange. The name itself comes from the barrels containing the herbicides which were marked with orange stripes. There were also other phenoxyl herbicides called by different names (agent pink, purple, etc) but the most used (because it was the most effective) was the orange, which contained 2,4-dichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4-D) and 2,4,5-trichlorophenoxyacetic acid (2,4,5-T) and that's why the reference to agent orange. TCDD is a dioxin byproduct, present both in the synthesis and degradation of the herbicide. All dioxins are proven to be very nasty stuff, but they have no relation whatsoever to DDT while they do contain some of the same elements. TCDD is 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo-para-dioxin while DDT is Dichloro-Diphenyl-Trichloroethane. Note the benzo and dioxin components of TCDD. TCDD is an extremely complex molecule that has very specific bonds which allows it to interact with cells in a certain way. DDT is a fairly complex molecule which has been shown to have extremely limited interaction with cells.
February 28, 2008 at 6:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
But Is it fair to say that DDT was mixed with herbicides and pesticide to make a Chemical agent?
February 28, 2008 at 6:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
http://www.epa.gov/superfund/sites/np...
February 28, 2008 at 6:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
Most World war 1 and World war 2 Superfund sites where these agents were produced have DDT contamination.
February 28, 2008 at 6:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
http://www.ffrd.org/Lawsuit/VAVA/Thu.pdf
Read this about Vietnam It Mentions DDT
February 28, 2008 at 6:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
walleyedwoman1215 (anonymous) says...
Last time I checked, at the end of the day we're supposed to love one another. It serves no higher purpose to bring debate down to the level of assignations in rest stop bathrooms. Whoops, now haters will be asking me what kind of crazy God I serve!
February 28, 2008 at 6:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
And FYI Major The US Governments way of disposing of these agents before this were burying them all over the Country and in Landfills.They also buried alot at SEA. Do You suppose Maybe Off the Coast of Carolina.Please Contact the EPA ,ATSDR and Inquire about Me and My Info.
February 28, 2008 at 6:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
Major? Did You read www.ffrd.org/lawsuit/VAVA/thu.pdf...
Now if only the Dolphins could read and tell us where they got contaminated. LOL
February 28, 2008 at 6:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
Major Johnson....But The First place I would look for the contamination would be the nearest Sewage Treatment plant.....Please tell The Public The Process of Neutralization of Chemical warfare agents...Isn't Sewage a part of that process..Not Bad For a guy with a H.S. Diploma LOL
February 28, 2008 at 7:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rollo (anonymous) says...
I'm reading all this and not believing the reaction to this article.
Everyone is blaming "industry" but the article leads right back to us consumers!
Here's how I read the article:
John Q tosses an old sofa into the trash, sofa gets carted off to the landfill where it deteriorates, and the flame retardants and the stainblockers and the other chemical products are released into the water table as runoff. These chemicals are washed into the rivers, and on into the harbor where they become part of the food chain.
These chemicals are mandated by congress, because "consumer advocates" demanded them while we sat silent, or, in John Qs' case, even cheered them on.
If this is truely a problem, as the article claims, we can only blame ourselves.
February 28, 2008 at 8:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
Would you people actually read the sites you post instead of just posting anything that comes up in a search for DDT?
If what JohnQ and Chris post has any indication of the ability of the American populace to make an intelligent decision, we have a sorry government coming up. Chris actually fooled me into thinking he was asking an intelligent question and I spent time giving him an intelligent response. That was apparently a waste of time.
February 28, 2008 at 8:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rollo (anonymous) says...
ChrisPia, "Major Johnson....But The First place I would look for the contamination would be the nearest Sewage Treatment plant.....Please tell The Public The Process of Neutralization of Chemical warfare agents...Isn't Sewage a part of that process..Not Bad For a guy with a H.S. Diploma LOL"
I'm trying to read your posts, but I have no idea what you're trying to say. Maybe you could interpret the quoted confusion for me.
February 28, 2008 at 9:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
Sewage sludge is Usedto neutralize The Chemical warfare disposal process.It Could be Coming from a Local sewage treatment plant or it could be from past dumpingof these agents decades ago. this stuff has been banned for over 2 decades.It just doesn't show up in the concentrations thatthe Dolphins are revealing. Am I Right Major?
February 28, 2008 at 9:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
Read Of On The Chemical Weapons Convention.
February 28, 2008 at 9:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
majorjohnson (anonymous) says...
"Sewage sludge is Usedto neutralize The Chemical warfare disposal process"
I'm not sure what process this sewage sludge is used to neutralize, but I'm pretty sure Chris was on some heavy medication when he wrote this. Frankly, after that statement I'm reconsidering my stance on the legalization of drugs.
Just kidding. I'm sure Chris was on legally prescribed meds when he wrote that.
February 28, 2008 at 10:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
http://www.pmacwa.army.mil/co/ip/dl/a...
Read this Major.......I Need My Bood pressure Meds.LOL
February 29, 2008 at 9:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rollo (anonymous) says...
"http://www.pmacwa.army.mil/co/ip/dl/acwa...
Read this Major.......I Need My Bood pressure Meds.LOL"
I did read it Chris, and nowhere does it mention the chemical compounds named in the article at the heart of this discussion.
Or, are you suggesting that people could be shredding old fabric, mixing the shreds with chem and bio weapons material they bought at the local Army Surplus, and flushing them down the TOILET???
What, in the context of the article, are you saying?
February 29, 2008 at 7:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ChrisPia (anonymous) says...
Part of the Chemical weapons convention Process.Maybe from a military base or dumped materials in the Ocean...The Chemicals are a byproductof Stack emissions from these incinerators and from the Neutralization process.
March 2, 2008 at 8:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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