Men argue 'Hold 'em' is game of skill
5 players busted more than 2 years ago aim to show luck not main factor in poker game
By Schuyler Kropf
MOUNT PLEASANT — It's an argument as old as gambling itself: Is "Texas Hold 'em" poker primarily a game of chance or skill?
Five players busted by Mount Pleasant police more than two years ago have secured a court order allowing them, in essence, to argue the game hinges on talented human play — not the luck of the cards.
The Post and Courier
Defendants and supporters in the gambling case crowd a hallway outside the municipal courtroom in Mount Pleasant in 2006. Five of the players are now trying to show that it was skill, not chance, they were relying on.
The distinction is key. If a town municipal judge agrees that "Hold 'em" relies sufficiently on wits, it could be a major boost in the players' quest to legalize a card game many people play privately around their kitchen tables.
But if he determines the game is dominated by chance, the players could be slapped with fines and convictions, setting the stage for long-term appeals.
"To my knowledge, the issue of whether skill or chance is the dominant factor in the game of poker has never been litigated with the presentation of evidence in the U.S.," said Greenville lawyer Jeff Phillips, an avid poker enthusiast and attorney for the five players.
The two-page document, signed last month, features an order from Municipal Court Judge J. Lawrence Duffy Jr. allowing the prosecution and the defense to present whatever evidence they wish in the long-running duel. They can offer testimony, call witnesses and provide other relevant evidence over whether "Texas Hold 'em" should be considered a game of chance under the state's definition of gaming and gambling.
Reader poll
Is 'Texas Hold 'em' poker a game of chance or skill?
- It's just chance 9% 99 votes
- There's skill involved 90% 950 votes
1049 total votes.
The order covers only "Texas Hold 'em." No other form of cards is included, such as Black Jack, Stud, Omaha or other casual poker table games. It also allows Duffy to decide what weight "if any" to give to anything that's presented.
Phillips' argument is that the game of "Hold 'em" is more than dealing and simple card play.
"While there is no disputing that the element of chance is present in poker — as in everything else in life — there are numerous skills a poker player must rely upon in playing the game of poker that will determine whether that player is successful or not," he said.
Mount Pleasant town prosecutor Ira Grossman declined to comment, citing the ongoing legal issues surrounding the case. A court date hasn't been set, but it likely will be this winter.
Previous story
Poker players' legal saga to go on, published 08/23/08
The five defendants are the last of about two-dozen people cited during an April 2006 police raid on a private home on Glencoe Street. Authorities discovered that an organized "Texas Hold 'em" tournament was going on inside where the host was pocketing some of the table cash. Players at the house had learned of the game through an Internet invitation and paid a $20 "buy in."
Authorities have justified the raid on several fronts, saying illegal gambling was taking place, that the street was routinely clogged by local and out-of-area vehicles and that a quantity of drugs was seized.
Most of those cited already have pleaded guilty to their ticketed offenses and paid small fines. The five players remaining are the hold-outs in a case that has dragged on for months, arguably much longer than most others filed in Mount Pleasant's municipal court.
During a court hearing in August, Phillips said the charges should be tossed out because South Carolina's 200-year-old anti-card, anti-dice laws are too antiquated and vague for anyone to make sense of today. For example, the law mentions aged games, including roly-poley, rouge et noir and draughts.
He also argued the home that hosted the game wasn't an illegal casino or a public house of gaming, as is mentioned in the state's anti-gambling laws.
Reach Schuyler Kropf at 937-5551, or skropf@postandcourier.com.
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theronce (anonymous) says...
Anyone who has played this game knows that experience and skill as important as luck in playing it. All card games rely on luck. Some rely entirely on luck; most do not; some, like Texas Hold'em, require a high level of skill to be successful.
December 15, 2008 at 6:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
commonsence (anonymous) says...
Waste of time...still.
December 15, 2008 at 7:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldglory (anonymous) says...
A travesty of justice above all.
These people broke the law as it now stands, and this case needs to be resolved. If they don't like the current law then they should work to change it after their case is resolved.
What is wrong with a court that permits a case to hang on forever without resolution? If their attorney can prove the law wrong, then he needs to do so in a timely fashion. We taxpayers pay every time the prosecutor walks out of his office into that courtroom.
Frankly, I'm tired of being fleeced for sand to shore up private beaches, to repay improper loans made by stupid officials--well, we all know that ever-growing list.
December 15, 2008 at 7:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tulane75 (anonymous) says...
Due Process does not run on a schedule like some European trains. It is a sad commentary indeed, that oldglory feels fleeced by others' pursuit of basic rights.
Oldglory has jumped to her conclusion that the defendants are guilty, so let's me on!?
I don't know if they are guilty or not, as I do not know enough about the case to make that call. Nevertheless, the question is interesting.
When we were growing up, there was a game based on the dreidel with the "spoils" being distributed based on the way the dreidel fell. I wonder if that is illegal. Come on Gimel!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreidel
December 15, 2008 at 8:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
beefsaver (anonymous) says...
I agree with Tulane75; there are no victims in this situation waiting for justice to finally deliver their relief. The defendants feel sincerely that their game of choice is not covered by the law, and thus they're defending their position as not having violated it. This doesn't affect me personally, as I neither play Hold 'Em nor gamble at all, ever... but they've been charged and have a right to mount a defense.
I'm not comfortable at all with the idea that all criminal matters should be handled immediately so as to minimize the burden on the taxpayer. That is an onerous position and would certainly send a chilling message throughout the legal system. Besides, we taxpayers pay every time the prosecutor walks out of his office, into his office, into the break room, into the judge's chambers... oh, yeah he's a government employee, right?
December 15, 2008 at 8:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldglory (anonymous) says...
No, Tulane, just as you appear to have a bit of a legal background, so do I. But I do know how some courts/attorneys operate.
I have jumped to no conclusions other than 'our prosecutor' apparently believes they are guilty by the law as it stands. Perhaps I missed reading that these postponement hearings over two years were just by agreement rather than by petition and agreed order before the court? Further, after two years, a court date hasn't even been set? How many continuances are allowed in this legal system? Do we all have an endless option should we be charged with a crime and disagree with the charge?
P.S. Tulane :)
Frankly, I love to play all those ILLEGAL card games; but I haven't done it in SC, believe me. I love to gamble, but I don't do it here in SC. Hey! Maybe at 70 years old, I should put some excitement into my life by doing some illegal things?? LOL
And yes, I know about the dreidel from the LP Mud online game, I play.
December 15, 2008 at 9:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jblakeslee (anonymous) says...
This is an interesting case>There is a HUGE difference between a group of friends getting together and playing cards and a large group of people being invited to a location, and having to pay a "house" buy in.....In this case the House is pretty much acting as a casino..this is not something any of us would want in our neighborhood....you do not know who in the group may be carrying a gun....others knowing the games are held there may lay in wait to rob people as they leave, it could very well attract the wrong kind of people. Not to mention the fact that you would not be able to park near your own property due to the cars.
I think the law needs to be changed to allow "friendly" games in a persons home, but not to the extent that this was.....These guys should just "pay the price" and be done with it, it is wasting time and money and they were in fact there and were in fact caught. If they are in fact found guilty then they need to pay for the states expenses, in dealing with this case......taxpayers should not have to.
December 15, 2008 at 9:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tulane75 (anonymous) says...
OG,
Then Dreidel it is, but we will need a clandestine spot and play only for chocolate! You shouldn't call them "illegal card games." They should be known as "choir practice" or some other such description!
December 15, 2008 at 9:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Tides (anonymous) says...
The prosecutor seriously needs to be sanctioned by the SC Supreme Court for intentionally dragging this case out. Has anyone filed complaints and/or motions to have action taken against him? I mean, it's pretty obvious what he has been doing.
These people in the Court System are full of themselves and think they are above the law.
December 15, 2008 at 10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ysillyme (anonymous) says...
J.H.~
Not a bad analaogy about "Cool Hand Luke"
December 15, 2008 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WAres (anonymous) says...
Johnny,
For all your great poker prowess, it still boils down to luck! you have A-K and are the chip leader. you come over the top and all I have is 2-7 ( worst hand in Texas Holdem). Flop comes and noone benefits. turn card, still no help. You are the odds on winner. River comes and I get a deuce. Pair of deuces and I win. It still boils down to luck. Just watch Phil Helmuth explode every time he is beaten by the lucky novice.
No matter how great you are, LUCK can still humble your expertise!!!!
December 15, 2008 at 10:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
theronce (anonymous) says...
WAres, luck can certainly humble you. The point is that expertise can beat the luck of the draw too.
December 15, 2008 at 1:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
islandbenzbc (anonymous) says...
I hope they all get off...the police have better things to do!
December 15, 2008 at 1:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dhack (anonymous) says...
i am the mother of one of these players. If i thought for a moment that my son was involved in something illegal, i would have jerked a knot in him. There are so many things being said about this that are just not true. If a card
game can cause so much media attention i would hate to see
what happens if someone is caught playing yahtzee!! there are dice involved, so i guess that game is illegal. And another point, if the justice system spent as much time about serious crimes as they have on this, we wouldn't have as many criminals of the street.
December 15, 2008 at 3:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sethook (anonymous) says...
islandbenzbc, the sad part is, they don't...
December 15, 2008 at 7:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
clemsonpablo (anonymous) says...
I guess we need to ban all sports in the State of South Carolina too. Any time a team chooses a risky play, and it doesn't work out they have obviously taken a gamble, and lost. Doesn't matter how talented or not their players were, the outcome was not 100% guaranteed, thus it is gambling.
December 16, 2008 at 12:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cashisking (anonymous) says...
Posted by WAres on December 15, 2008 at 10:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Johnny,
For all your great poker prowess, it still boils down to luck! you have A-K and are the chip leader. you come over the top and all I have is 2-7 ( worst hand in Texas Holdem). Flop comes and noone benefits. turn card, still no help. You are the odds on winner. River comes and I get a deuce. Pair of deuces and I win. It still boils down to luck. Just watch Phil Helmuth explode every time he is beaten by the lucky novice.
No matter how great you are, LUCK can still humble your expertise!!!!
lets run this same situation one hundred times. who comes out on top the most of the time?
December 18, 2008 at 1:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
barryg1 (anonymous) says...
Contrary to what the article said, there is no argument about whether or not poker is a game of skill. It is a game of skill with an element of luck, like almost all games and sports.
The only time it is debated is when we have dishonest people who have gotten money under the table to rule otherwise. We should remove any judge who lets a ruling that poker is a game of luck leave his courtroom because it means he is either uninformed, unintelligent, or dishonest. In any of those cases, we need someone else on the bench.
Barry Greenstein
December 19, 2008 at 8:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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