Poker players to get hearingThe 5 will ask judge to dismiss case outright By Schuyler Kropf (Contact)
The Post and Courier
Thursday, August 21, 2008
Past storiesDefendants in gambling sting determined to go to trial; Poker players still waiting, published 03/10/08 Some implicated in Hanahan poker raid also charged in Mt. P., publisehd 04/09/08 Poker players fold 'em; 19 plead guilty; fight brews over seized money, property, published 04/15/08 MOUNT PLEASANT — Five "Texas Hold 'em" poker players fighting gambling tickets from an April 2006 police raid finally get to argue that their case should be tossed out. South Carolina's anti-gambling laws are unconstitutional and unenforceable, they contend, and will ask a municipal court judge Friday to dismiss the case outright. Barring a last-minute change of schedule, the action would be the first in months involving the final group of amateur players. Most of the two-dozen people cited in the private home raid already pleaded out, with some paying fines as low as $100. Bob Chimento, a spokesman for the hold-out players, said the motions hearing should be eventful. If the judge tosses the case out, the issue might end with a quick victory for the players, he said. If not, the case will move ahead with what he says will be a step-by-step legal challenge of the Legislature's antiquated gambling laws. Poker is considered illegal in South Carolina under a 200-year-old law which prohibits games of cards and dice. "We are as steadfast as we can be," Chimento said Tuesday. The group wants a jury trial. Ira Grossman, municipal court solicitor for the Town of Mount Pleasant, declined to comment in advance of the hearing in front of Judge Larry Duffy. One of the planks behind the group's legal argument is that South Carolina's gambling statutes are vague and outdated. "In the case at hand, the statute prohibits the playing of 'any game with cards or dice,'" their court filing says. "In reality, there are few games which may be played by any individual that does not involve cards or dice. These are rudimentary elements to the vast majority of games citizens play." Additionally, the group contends that private citizens playing poker inside a private residence does not equate to running a casino. "Playing poker in a private residence no more makes it a 'house of gaming' than serving alcohol in a residence makes it a bar or tavern," court papers say. In April 2006, Mount Pleasant police busted up a "Texas Hold 'em" tournament at a Glencoe Street home which had been under observation for some time. The game had been advertised via an Internet "meet-up" site set up specifically to attract poker enthusiasts from around the Lowcountry. Players paid a $20 "buy-in" to join the game, with a percentage of the proceeds going to the house. Only about eight of the approximately 24 people involved lived in Mount Pleasant. The others hailed from Charleston, James Island, Summerville, Hanahan and North Charleston. Authorities seized nearly $6,000 and a small quantity of drugs. Those listed in court papers as challenging the case are Chimento, Scott Richards, Michael Williamson, Jeremy Brestel and John Taylor Willis. The hearing is set to begin Friday at 9:30 a.m. Reach Schuyler Kropf at 937-5551, or skropf@postandcourier.com. |
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Comments
This article has 29 comment(s)
Posted by Smart_Enough_2_Know_Better on August 21, 2008 at 2:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Look, I'm all for friends and neighbors getting together for a friendly game of cards. I think it would be ridiculous for the police to waste their time and energy pursuing such petty violations of the law. (And I suspect the police feel the same.) But this was someone running an organized, for-profit gambling business out of their house. It's really not the same thing and shouldn't be painted as such.
While I don't believe gambling should be illegal (after all, if the state can legally offer gambling to the public via a lottery system, shouldn’t private business be allowed to do the same?) until the law is changed it must be respected. While I’m good with looking the other way for small poker games among friends, I draw the line at organized efforts to undermine/circumvent the law and this was just that.
Posted by jwabell on August 21, 2008 at 6:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I have stopped a traditional family Clue game we use to play each Friday night... it uses cards! I had each of my kids kick in $1 for a pizza we ordered durng the game... so the statute was violated of cards being used and the house taking $$ from players... a rediculous law in need of updating. Do not respond to this like "Smart Enough" and say the law just needs to be changed, but until then, it needs to be followed. In the time it takes to get a law like that passed through the legal manucia, I could win the lottery!
Posted by DoaMM on August 21, 2008 at 7:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Dad: "I'm sorry son. I'm going to have to ground you for a month."
Kid: "But why daddy?"
Dad: "Well son, it's difficult to understand at your age but in South Carolina you are not allowed to play Uno. But son, don't worry about this too much. Your sister is getting punished for playing Candyland."
Posted by oldglory on August 21, 2008 at 7:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
My, my. Wish I had the big bucks that it takes to institute and pursue a law suit like that. Oh but, they are probably using their -meager- winnings to show why they are above the law. And of course they would have fought to have that law changed prior to these games, but surely you can see how necessary it was to raise funds to do such, right? Gimme a break.
Posted by jeff61 on August 21, 2008 at 8:21 a.m. (Suggest removal)
The gambling laws are very much like passing an accident on the highway - I don't WANT to look, but sometimes I look, and then I feel nauseous and hate myself for exposing myself to that.
Posted by BerkeleyCo_Mom_of_3 on August 21, 2008 at 8:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
You make that fit everywhere Jeff (impressive)...who gives a damn that these guys were having fun! I am going to continue to play poker and gamble in protest!! They should be more concerened with all the damn tax dollars that are eaten up by dumbass ignoramus' who play the f'ing state lottery every week(while purchasing there 40 oz.) with their unemployment checks!!
Posted by STREETLAW on August 21, 2008 at 8:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I know a few poker games that have been going on in Charleston for over twenty years. Football parlay cards abound. Employees at every level of government participate in baseball or football pools, and many gamble online while they are working.
Every golf course has gambling going on and while they will tell you it is actually a contest of skill, I've seen a lot of these guys play.
If the current mindset had been in effect back then, the book and movie "The Robe" would have never come about. Those Roman soldier would have had better sense than to shoot dice for it.
They would have been busted for sure.
Posted by Larz13 on August 21, 2008 at 9:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Schlitz and lottery tix...what else is there in life? Except for maybe going to Super Bad and getting me one of them $79 pimp suits, new grill and a Bowlex watch!
Posted by MissPriss on August 21, 2008 at 9:14 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow Jeff, I'm loving that your post is very generalized and can apply to every story today!
DoaMM no don't punish over Candyland!
Posted by STREETLAW on August 21, 2008 at 10:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)
What???? A pimp suit for only $79!!!
What else is there indeed. The politicians, bureaucrats and regulated industries have us in their pockets, and South Carolina is fast becoming a totalitarian state.
What ever happen to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?
Posted by JohnS on August 21, 2008 at 10:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Since they did not get a speedy trial I say dismiss the charges. Otherwise I think for profit gambling in a residence is wrong and should be pursued by LEO.
Posted by Larz13 on August 21, 2008 at 11:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
STREETLAW--The $79 pimp suit includes the belt and shoes! I think they have a pumpkin orange and lime green in the window these days. You too can look like the Fresh Prince!
Posted by WhoCares on August 21, 2008 at 11:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)
So what sort of a society are we going to become if everyone (gamblers included) get to pick and choose which laws they are or are not going to obey? Let's not forget that we are a civilized nation living by the rule of law. If you do not like a law, contact your lawmaker(s) and make every (legal) effort to get the law (or lawmaker) changed.
According to some of the ways of thinking I've seen here, I guess it would be ok for me to decide I don't like our current rape laws...and thus start going out and raping every man in sight. The law is the law... you may not like it, but until it is changed, you are duty bound (as a citizen) to abide by it.
Posted by BerkeleyCo_Mom_of_3 on August 21, 2008 at 11:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)
OMG, so serious. Does in-home gambling hurt anyone? It's kind of more like consensual sex as opposed to rape...huge difference
As my son would say....you are being dramatic WhoCares.
Posted by Perspective on August 21, 2008 at 11:48 a.m. (Suggest removal)
"Playing poker in a private residence no more makes it a 'house of gaming' than serving alcohol in a residence makes it a bar or tavern," court papers say.
That is a dumb argument that doesn't even compare unless you were charging for the alcohol. Then it would still be illegal. Did these morons pay someone for that legal wisdom? Ha! Ask for your money back or actually pay a lawyer that has a clue.
I think gambling over cards in your home should be legal EXCEPT when you are participating in an illegal gambling establishment where the house gets part of the money.
At their jury trial they are going to find 6 very pissed off jury members who have been inconvenienced by these guys not just paying their tickets. I hope they get 30 days in jail instead of the fine.
Gambling should be legal ------------------- YES
It is ok to gamble at an illegal casino ------- No
Illegal casinos are ok in neighborhoods ---- No
Did kids live near illegal casino -------------- Yes
These guys know what they did -------------- Yes
Do most people think they broke the law ---- Yes
Can one person nullify the jury -------------- Yes
But unless unanimous they can be retried --- Yes
The odds are eventually guilty --------------- Yes
Are they wasting taxpayer money and time -- Yes
No one I know in Mount Pleasant thinks they should get off. Not very good odds considering they will have a Mount Pleasant jury pool. Many people in Mount Pleasant are educated and will not be swayed by stupid arguments that try and justify illegal gambling casinos in residential neighborhoods.
Posted by Perspective on August 21, 2008 at 12:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ps:
Were those running and advertising the neighborhood casino reporting the cash flow on their taxes?
Did they have a business license?
Again, you should be allowed to gamble, but not to the extent that my neighbor can run an unlicensed and unregulated money laundering business next door to my kids. I don't want loud money disputes in the middle of the night or people parking in my yard leaving their trash.
Law enforcement has made this about illegal casinos, not petty card games.
Guess what Illegal Casino Participants, you can have sex in your private home, but when you start charging people to participate it is illegal and Big Brother will step in.
Posted by WhoCares on August 21, 2008 at 12:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
BerkeleyCo_Mom_of_3: Do you let your kids decide which of your rules they abide by and which ones they ignore? I'm not sure how old your kids are, but I know in my house rules for the kids are the same as laws for the adults ...and neither party(s) gets to pick and choose which ones they follow!!
Posted by dwfrance on August 21, 2008 at 12:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Eat,Drink,and be Merry...For tomorrow they may make it illegal :)
Posted by BerkeleyCo_Mom_of_3 on August 21, 2008 at 12:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
On my home rules and laws and such...my children are teenagers, and they follow my rules most of the time, sometimes we compromise and make a rules change. Unfortunately governments don't work that well.
For the most part I am a law-abiding citizen (I'll admit sometimes I have a lead foot). I just think this whole thing of ticketing people for having a texas hold 'em game in their home is ridiculous... so what if they advertise it to the local fellas. Yes, it is against the law, but so is oral sex in some places and there are many more dumb laws.
I may be a bad person and lock me up if yah gotta, but some laws were meant to be broken!!!
Too much time is being wasted on an issue that dwarfs in comparison to other things are government could be working on, welfare reform, education reform, and all of the other b.s. out there that is higher on the list...like getting the damn air conditioner fixed at the Wando High School gym and firing the dumb eff who didn't contract out the job properly.
Posted by WhoCares on August 21, 2008 at 1:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
eeewww teenagers...you have my sympathy...LOL Sounds like they have a good role model tho...
I don't mean to be dramatic about the poker thing ... just hate to see grumps (my kid's term for grown-ups) trying to blame the law when they knew full well what they were doing was illegal and had consequences if they got caught. When they did, then they blamed the law ... trying to put the blame elsewhere instead of taking responsibility for their actions. I hope the court holds them accountable ...
Of course I'm not sure if you meant the oral sex law was one of those that was meant to be broken (I'm kinda slow sometimes). But then there are times when slow is not a bad thing...LOL
Posted by STREETLAW on August 21, 2008 at 1:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)
larz13
Pumkin orange ok. Nada Clemson.
Posted by BerkeleyCo_Mom_of_3 on August 21, 2008 at 1:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Thank you WhoCares, fortunately they are all better kids than their mom was. :) I concur with you about them using the law as their excuse, I still think it is an ass backwards law, but I am all accountability. There are too many people in this world who are not accountable for their actions, which is and can be detrimental to others...not necessarily with poker.
Of course the oral sex law is to be broken, good lord...Sex should be uninhibited and natural, not the business of the government, unless of course it pertains to non-consensual sex or sex with an 'obvious' adult with a minor. those are whole other topics though.
CB, I guess at least when the cops come for me because of my lead foot and sexual deviance I can save them from cuffing me...I have my own. :P
Posted by VMI90 on August 21, 2008 at 2:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Who cares, I have to completely disagree with you about laws. If you used that skewed logic, I guess that before SC overturned the ban on interracial marriage in the 1990's then you would have someone in 1989 arrested for marrying a person of a different race. Hey, against the law, all the same. Do you see how ridiculous that sounds?
This is another ridiculous law in effect. If anyone has acutally played poker on a semi-regular basis, you would understand that the host of the party gets some $$ for food and beverage- it's hardly a cut of the profits.
Posted by WhoCares on August 21, 2008 at 2:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
VMI90 I totally respect your right to disagree... you are just as entitled to your opinion as I. You also put forth a good argument; however, by doing so, you further support my argument that people need to be held accountable for their actions. As many folks here have said, they knowingly violate certain laws they either feel are unjust, or minor in scope (i.e. speeding). However, each of them have said they are willing to accept responsibility and suffer the consequences if caught.
Not so with the 5 people in this poker thing. Using your prior example: I know six interracial couples, two of which were involved/married prior to the change of the law. I'm 99.99% sure that if you asked any of the six (or 12 people) couples, they would tell you that thier love for the other is such that they would have willingly gone to jail (i.e. accept the consequences) if that law was still in effect and they knowingly violated it. Therein lies the crux of my argument: If you do not abide by existing law, you should fight to have it changed. However, if you knowingly violate a law, whether you agree with it or not, you should be willing to accept the consequences if you are caught.
Personally I'm not into the card thing... Poker?? Poker??? Heck, I didn't even kiss her!!!!
Posted by VMI90 on August 21, 2008 at 2:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Nicely said...you stole one of my lines....Heck, as Lois Griffin says..."Chris, find a smoker...you know what they say- she smokes, she pokes!"
Posted by WhoCares on August 21, 2008 at 3:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
LOL on the smoker!! Wonder if she is from Kingston ... Jamaica?? Nope, didn't even kiss her :))
Posted by stephaniem on August 21, 2008 at 3:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The law needs to be revised to allow small, low value games to be played. Money should never go to the house unless real gambling is legalized.
--------------
one of the smartest things ever on this board.
I don't like pot but small amts found on grandma or a wealthier person helping out a lover with their bills should also be in this arguement. Keep it under a certain amt before even charging them with a misdeamnor. It shocks me that someone gets arrested for a marijuana seed. in their car.
as for betting, small wagers are just for fun.
Posted by mcdian on August 21, 2008 at 7:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I just wish they would prosicute the illegal aliens that are here killing people with their criminal behavior with as much effort as they did busting the illegal casino.
If we would get rid of the illegal aliens think of how much energy we could be saving.
It is not racist to want people who knowingly break the law to pay the consequences.
Posted by jeff61 on August 21, 2008 at 8:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
What the hell did you intend to say Stephie?????