Fire report blasts city
State officials hit city, sofa store with fines
By Ron Menchaca , Glenn Smith
The Post and Courier
<p>'We want to get to the truth ... but it is important that the record be correct and that the truth is known. We are not going to allow this fire to be used or misconstrued.'</p> <br /> <p><em><strong>Charleston Mayor Joe Riley</strong>, responding to the state OSHA report about the Sofa Super Store fire</em></p>
State officials hit city, sofa store with fines
The Charleston Fire Department knowingly ignored the safety of its firefighters during the June 18 Sofa Super Store blaze, according to state officials, who on Thursday slapped the city with one of the largest fines ever imposed on a public agency in South Carolina.
Nine city firefighters died in the blaze, the largest single loss of firefighters since the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.
Mayor Joe Riley, who has consistently praised the fire department and its chief as among the nation's best, held to that position in a news conference and said the city will contest the state Occupational Safety and Health Administration's findings. OSHA cited the fire department for four violations and fined the city $9,325.
But one City Council member said the report signals major problems in the department and called for the resignations of Fire Chief Rusty Thomas and Assistant Fire Chief Larry Garvin, who were in charge at the fire scene.
The state also came down on the Sofa Super Store for failing to adequately protect its employees. The store was fined $32,775 — one of the largest penalties ever assessed against a small business in the state — for having padlocked or malfunctioning exit doors and for failing to a have an emergency action plan in place.
In our special section with photos, videos, interactives, donation information and every story written about the tragedy.
The state report came a day after the head of the state firefighters union called for Thomas' ouster, saying that before the fatal blaze, he resisted efforts to bring the department in line with national firefighting standards and practices.
In the most serious of the violations against the fire department, the state fined the city $7,000, the maximum allowed by law, for failing to have an adequate command system to protect firefighters. The state defines this "willful" violation as "one committed with conscious or voluntary disregard" or "plain indifference to employee safety or health."
Incident command systems are written procedures for managing emergency
responses, and every local, county and state public safety agency in the country is supposed to have one.
Riley insisted that the city did have a written incident command policy and that it was appropriately followed that night. He said the city would never knowingly place an employee in jeopardy and that it was inappropriate of OSHA to suggest otherwise.
Video
Riley Press Conference
Mayor Joseph Riley press conference about the Sofa Super Store Fire
The fire department also failed to recognize known dangers associated with the furniture store's steel truss roof, the report said. Steel truss roofs are widely reviled by firefighters because they can mask growing fires and collapse within minutes when heated. For that reason, firefighting instructors and federal agencies have long warned of the dangers associated with steel truss roofs and recommend that firefighters battle blazes from outside such structures. A fire department report on the building drawn up before the June 18 fire made no mention of the steel truss structure, which ultimately collapsed.
OSHA's report said the fire department lacked procedures "to cover the special hazards associated with fighting and attacking a fire involving a metal truss roof."
Riley argued that the state had no specific regulation in place concerning steel truss roofs and is now attempting to impose such a requirement retroactively. "You can't make up policies after the fact," he said.
Riley said the city has since drafted a policy for fighting fires under truss roofs, one of many changes since the June 18 fire.
The remaining two violations, classified as "serious," involve the department's failure to require firefighters to wear full protective equipment while battling the blaze. Serious violations are issued for hazards that could injure or kill an employee and for those that the employer knew or should have known existed.
The state fined the city a total of $525 for four instances in which firefighters exposed to smoke and toxic substances did not wear air packs. Burning sofas can emit dangerous fumes because they contain polyurethane foam, a highly combustible material that some fire protection experts liken to solid gasoline.
The state fined the city an additional $900 for nine instances in which firefighters did not wear full protective clothing while battling the blaze. Video and photo footage from the scene shows firefighters with open coats and no helmets, standing mere feet from the flaming, crumbling facade.
Riley said that the fire department had written policies in place requiring firefighters to wear full protective gear if they are actively involved in battling a blaze. Just because a few didn't follow those policies isn't a reflection on the entire department, he said. "We want to get to the truth ... but it is important that the record be correct and that the truth is known," he said. "We are not going to allow this fire to be used or misconstrued."
Five other area fire departments that responded to the blaze were not cited for any violations in the report.
State OSHA spokesman Jim Knight said the reason the store's fines are considerably larger than those levied against the city is because penalties for private employers are established by the federal government while the state sets parameters for penalties against public agencies.
The next step is for state officials to meet with city leaders and store officials to discuss how they intend to respond to the violations. The state will consider any new information or arguments before deciding if the fines will stand or be reduced.
State officials say that most cases are settled in these meetings, but the city and the sofa store owner can appeal the citations and fines to a state board.
Riley said the sofa store blaze was a "perfect storm fire" and the department battled it valiantly. Riley said that when "incorrect conclusions" are factored out of OSHA's findings, the agency's report is actually "an affirmation of the leadership of the fire department and how hard they worked that night."
Brandi Clark of Moncks Corner, a sister of firefighter Michael French, who died in the fire, strongly agreed with OSHA's findings that the department's command system was flawed. "I love Charleston city with all my heart, and I love Chief Rusty," she said, "but I feel mistakes were made, and this is a good way to correct them. The good old boy program might have worked back in the day, but it needs to be improved with technology today."
Councilman Henry Fishburne struggled to find the words to convey his sadness. "This is the second-darkest day in the city's modern history. The first was June 18th."
Fishburne said he was "extremely disappointed" that the city plans to contest OSHA's findings. At the mayor's urging, people withheld judgment until the investigation was completed, only to have Riley dispute the findings and "parse words," he said.
"I think I've seen enough to know that we have a major problem and that is a result of failed leadership, training, tactics and equipment," he said. "The mayor has chosen, even in the face of this report and even with the deaths of nine men, to deny we have a problem."
The Post and Courier
Mayor Joe Riley addresses the OSHA report released Thursday from City Council chambers. City Councilman Henry Fishburne (left) watches from the side.
Fishburne said Thomas and Garvin should step down so the department can begin to move forward. Fishburne said Thomas is a afforded a great deal of responsibility as chief and should be held accountable.
Thomas immediately left the news conference after Riley ended his address. He did not take reporters' questions and was unavailable for comment, a City Hall employee said.
While Fishburne called for Thomas to step down, other City Council members supported Riley's decision for a review of the OSHA findings.
"I think he was right on," said Councilman Paul Tinkler, who, along with Councilwoman Yvonne Evans, favored waiting until all the reports and examinations of the fire are complete.
Roger Yow, president of the Charleston Firefighter's Association that represents about half of the city's firefighters, said the report affirms concerns long held by many local firefighters. "This new report is significant because it's no longer just firefighters who claim the Charleston Fire Department is run in an unsafe manner," Yow said. "Now state officials also are condemning Chief Thomas' failed leadership, and Mayor Riley's blind allegiance to the chief is as unsafe as it is indefensible."
Jay Lowry, a former city firefighter and fire inspector, said the report is damning and likely to fuel more calls for Thomas' resignation. "The report says the city was not prepared for that fire and nine brave men paid the price for it. I certainly think the chief, for the good of the department, needs to consider stepping down."
City Councilman Wendell Gilliard said the city should accept OSHA's findings, pay the fines and move on for "the sake of the families, the nine heroes and the future."
The city needs to pull together and resist casting blame for whatever problems occurred at the fire, Gilliard said. As a former labor representative, he said he was disappointed to see the state firefighters union head call for Thomas' ouster. "Unions are not supposed to call for people's jobs, they're suppose to save jobs," he said. "To call for someone's head is just the wrong approach."
Sofa Super Store owner Herb Goldstein released a brief statement Thursday signaling his appreciation for the efforts of the city and its firefighters. He responded to one violation cited in the OSHA report but did not indicate whether he intended to pay or appeal the fine. "Our managers locked the doors at closing time to keep criminals and transients out of the building, and only when there were no customers present," he stated.
Clark, firefighter French's sister, said she was outraged that the Sofa Super Store was fined only about $33,000 even though it had no sprinklers and had sofas stacked high in the store. "I think that's just a slap in the face."
Firefighters across the country have been following the response to the Charleston tragedy and its implications for their profession. The report drew interest from as far away as California.
Henry Howard, a retired fire chief who lives in Vallejo, Calif., has served on state and national fire safety committees. Howard, who has written a number of unofficial technical papers on the Charleston fire, said the OSHA report "was pretty much on the money. I think this was probably expected to occur by everyone. I think they could have been fined even more."
Penalties
Charleston Fire Department:
WILLFUL VIOLATION: The department knew or should have known that its fire scene command system did not provide for the safety of firefighters. PENALTY: $7,000
SERIOUS VIOLATION: The fire department failed to develop special tactics for fires in buildings with metal truss roofs, such as that at the Sofa Super Store. PENALTY: $900
SERIOUS VIOLATION: Body protection equipment was not worn by nine firefighters* fighting the fire inside the building. PENALTY: $900
SERIOUS VIOLATION: Self-contained breathing apparatus was not worn by four firefighters exposed to smoke and toxic gases. PENALTY: $525
* Not the nine firefighters who were killed in the fire.
Sofa Super Store:
WILLFUL VIOLATION: Some exit doors were padlocked. PENALTY: $29,400
SERIOUS VIOLATION: Three fire doors were not in proper working order. PENALTY: $2,500
SERIOUS VIOLATION 2: No emergency action plan for employees. PENALTY: $875
Reader poll
The fines levied on The Charleston Fire Department and Sofa Super Store were...
- not high enough 68% 397 votes
- fair 16% 97 votes
- too high 14% 86 votes
580 total votes.
What is a willful violation?
One committed with conscious or voluntary disregard of the requirements of the South Carolina Occupational Safety and Health Act or plain indifference to employee safety or health.**
What is a serious violation?
One that could cause death or serious physical harm to employees, and the employer knew or should have known of the hazard.
** Fines for public agencies are considerably less than those for the private sector.
-- SOURCE: South Carolina Office of Occupational Safety and Health
Schuyler Kropf, Robert Behre and Jessica Johnson contributed to this report. Reach Ron Menchaca at 937-5724 or rmenchaca@postandcourier.com. Reach Glenn Smith at 937-5556 or gsmith@postandcourier.com.
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Comments
east3 (anonymous) says...
The Mayor is unbelievable. A finding that they willfully caused the deaths of nine firefighters through their malfeasance is an "affirmation" of his fire department leaders?! What amazing hutzpah! What would get his attention? A homicide conviction?
He and the spineless council members - Tinkler, Evans and Gilliard, and any others who back him in this - should be ashamed. They care nothing for the firefighters who died serving them. They will not accept any measure of accountability.
Gilliard is an embarassment to the entire union movement, siding with an employer who willfully contributed to the deaths of employees. The number one job of a union is worker safety. He's satisfied to pay a fine of $1036.11 per dead firefighter and move on. So now I guess we know what a dead firefighter costs in Charleston.
Can there be only one good man in the entire city government of Charleston? It is evil to deny these fallen heroes and their brave brothers any measure of justice. Shame, shame.
Perhaps it is time for the firefighters of America to consider calling for a national boycott of a city that doesn't care if firefighters die.
David Grahl, Dayton, OH
September 21, 2007 at 1:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MrCoffee (anonymous) says...
lot of bitterness out there towards Chief Thomas from the few that I keep reading on here. If I thought it were all for the right reasons, I would sympathize more. I do sympathize to a degree, but the level that some of you take this is absurd. He hasn't even had the chance to mourn. Give him a chance to make the changes he needs to make. Keep in mind, it's only been 90 days. Put yourself in his shoes for a minute.
Or just enjoy your witch hunt.
September 21, 2007 at 1:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yeahright (anonymous) says...
Joe Riley thinks he's untouchable. He's become a dangerous man(reminiscent of Greenberg at the end of his career), and needs to be voted out of office.
September 21, 2007 at 1:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Pluffmuddy (anonymous) says...
MrC, there are at least 9 good reasons! Where have you been??? The chief has had 15 years to make changes...maybe you'd like to give him 15 more? As far as witches are concerned, they must be flying around in your head...there's no 'imagined' culprit here.
September 21, 2007 at 1:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hotrod2007 (anonymous) says...
east3,
Keep on posting! We need and appreate your opinion. Just to offer a little background of southern politics. Some/most of our city council members will not speak out because its mot in their best interest. It all about a "quid pro quo." The mayor is a dictator, who for last 32 years has built a city government baised on cronism. It is not unique to the City of Charleston, most public agencies in public agencies has a simuler system in place. A few years ago, one of the mayor's cronies was caught writing check to his son and himself for services not rendered. This cost the taxpayers at least $500,000. The city council is only waiting for press to subside; they refuse to beleive that this situation has bigger than the Mayor and his rich friends.
I wholeheartedly agree that the firefighters of America should stand up for the Charleston 9, boycott and ensure that this never happens again. If not, the city will purchase the site of the fire (reward the owner) and create a memorial. The brothers of South Carolina needs your support NOW!
On the other hand, the mayor is being challenged for his job on November 07. It appears William Gregory http://gregorieformayor.com/ is the best QUALIFIED candidate for the job.
September 21, 2007 at 3:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Paul (anonymous) says...
Rusty: Go home and take Little Joe with you ...
September 21, 2007 at 3:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Coastie_RET (anonymous) says...
I completely agree with Yeahright. I'd say that's Riley's term has been a bit much. Undemocratic as it may sound, it doesn't exactly give anyone else a chance. "New blood" usually means new ideas, right? When you're in office for that long, where do the new ideas come from? I think there is a good case for term limits for Charleston's Mayor, actually any politician. Give someone else a chance.
September 21, 2007 at 5:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
The city of charleston mayor joseph p. riley, jr. has been dragged screaming and hollering every step of the way.
All he can say is we are the best, we are #1.
It's really sad, maybe the 9 didn't have to die, if only the mayor joseph p. riley, jr. had a better grasp on reality.
The smartest thing that the city of charleston, mayor joseph p. riley, jr. could do is to remove fire chief rusty thomas and his lieutenants from their positions.
As for the city of charleston, mayor joseph p. riley, jr. ..... "Bubba, I have met great leaders ..... some great leaders are friends of mine ..... and you Bubba, you're no great leader."
September 21, 2007 at 5:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
It appears that now is a good time to call the city of charleston, at city hall, and demand mayor joseph p. riley, jr. resign.
Do it for the sake of the firemen still protecting charleston, whether you live there or not.
September 21, 2007 at 6:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
poorboy (anonymous) says...
"yeahright" your right!
This is exactly why at every level of government we need term limits not dictators for life. This story is amazing as OSHA has found fault, fined the entities that were at fault some what, and he still denies the city dept did anything wrong. This is the democrat way, deny, deny, deny and point blame somewhere else!
This is the year if a formidable opponent stepped up you could put Joe in retirement.
Next, the lawyers are coming! This is what they have been waiting on. Proof of blame! This will cost the city a lot more than these paultry fines...
September 21, 2007 at 6:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SUNTANNED (anonymous) says...
I LIVE IN CT AND HAVE BEEN KEEPING UP WITH ALL THE NEWS OF THE TRAGEDY THERE.IT IS MY OPINION THAT CHARLESTON HAS A BIG PROBLEM.IT IS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THE PEOPLE THAT CHIEF RUSTY THOMAS BE OUSTED FROM HIS POSITION ALONG WITH GARVIN.NINE EXPERIENCED MEN DIED .LET THE FAMILIES HAVE CLOSURE NOW OUSTING THESE TWO FOOLS'''''''''
September 21, 2007 at 6:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
Rusty has to go because he is incompetent and those of us who work for him know how he is at every fire.
September 21, 2007 at 7:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mggoose2000 (anonymous) says...
I wonder how OSHA and firefighters came to understand the dangers of fighting fires in buildings with "truss roof systems"; from experience! I wonder if the people involved in fighting those fires were villified like this.
As for firefighters not wearing their gear; since when is the Chief responsible for those that ignore safety procedures? Also, where are all of the photographs and video of other fires where they were not wearing their gear?
The Mayor of Charleston may be many things, but I remind you, he is an "elected" official. If he's doing such a terrible job, the citizens of Charleston have had numerous opportunities to vote him out in 32 years. Either all of the voters that vote for him every election are complete idiots or he's doing a good job. It takes a majority to elect him, folks!
Being a trained industrial firefighter, trained in the academy in Reno, Nv. I've fought some very dangerous fires and I've held the position of Fire Brigade Captain for 8 years. When these fires break out, the training or lack of training shows in how the firefighters respond. I believe that these 9 men died because they were unsure that all persons in the building were out. Their training calls for them to put their lives on the line to save others; that is what they did! Period.
All of your armchair quarterbacking of the CFD won't bring them back and villifying those that were in charge won't either. I wish all of you had the chance to be a firefighter at the scene of a fire of this magnitude, just once! It's a very humbling experience and I'm sure it would cause most of you to shut up and reflect on God's mercy, thanking him for your life and the lives of the other gallant firefighters that fought the blaze with you.
Also, when you make a mistake at work, I hope that everyone that you work with and all the customers and vendors and families of everyone jump on you and stomp your guts out. Then maybe you'd understand that RT is suffering more than you self-rightous Pollyaniacs(sp) would understand. These men were his friends and co-workers and if you jackasses think he sent those men to their deaths without a care, you are fools.
September 21, 2007 at 7:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yeahright (anonymous) says...
I don't think anyone believes RT sent 9 men to their deaths without care. However, learning about "truss roof systems" through experience and then ignoring that lesson disrespects lives lost prior as well as those lost during this tragedy. Your point about Riley is well taken. Hopefully someone competent will present a challenge to him in the next election. The rest of your post, however, seems clouded by emotion, not logic.
September 21, 2007 at 7:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Remember the nine!
September 21, 2007 at 7:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
There are numerous pictures of firefighters not wearing their gear at this and other fires. Further, you may be a trained industrial firefighter but I'm a 25 year veteran of this department. Don't presume to come in and tell me how to remember my brothers, who I worked with.
As for Rusty you haven't heard him around the stations. You haven't been on the receiving end.
mggoose200 - Material is out there about truss dangers-there are classes on it. The reason experience is valuable is so others can learn from it. This chief and members of the command staff CAN"T describe a truss roof.
You need to go back to Rusty and let him give you some more material. That, or stick to fires in petro-chemical plants and let the big boys talk about what we know BECAUSE WE WORKI IN IT DAILY. Mutt.
September 21, 2007 at 7:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Right, Boycott it is then.
As long as this man riley is mayor of charleston, I will spend no money in charleston s.c.
When I'm in the area, I will seek accomadations and buy the things I need in the City of North Charleston.
September 21, 2007 at 7:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
Differences Between South Carolina and Federal OSHA Standards
South Carolina has adopted the Federal OSHA Standards verbatim, with a few exceptions. Differences between S.C. and Federal Standards follow
http://www.llronline.com/Labor/Osha/i...
September 21, 2007 at 7:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
It escapes me as to why some fail to recognize that the Chief has known about his shortcomings FOR YEARS. Even as of late he's reported to have said something along the lines of his (outdated)ways/policies are what they are and will continue. It's one thing to make a mistake, accept responsibility and make necessary changes, this entire debacle wreaks of everything but! We still have FFs out there who are in harms way under his "leadership." Surely even the skeptics can understand the fear these brave men and women have under the Chief's watch. Honestly people, it's far larger than blame at this point; it's a matter of survival for our CFD FFs. RT has had his time. Now, let someone who is qualified clean up the mess and move the FD forward into the 21st century.
September 21, 2007 at 8:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
HARPO for mayor???????
September 21, 2007 at 8:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
mggoose2000, I am sure glad you don't work for my dept, and am really glad you aren't my officer. Because quite frankly, by way of your statement, you aren't a very good one.
Yes, we have been fighting fires in Steel-truss buildings for decades and we have lost men in the past. But, the NIST an NFPA have done quite a lot with research, testing and writing standards and training so that we don't lose any more. It was obvious that by listening to the tapes and seeing the images, that Rusty didn't have a clue as to what he was facing and in a chief officer, that is in excusable.
As for the protective equipment and personal safety, the chief is ultimately responsible. You as an officer also have a duty to enforce safety procedures on your men. But you can't really complain about firefighters not adhereing to standards when even the chiefs don't follow them.
September 21, 2007 at 8:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Even in FDNY and Boston FD, when they lost 2 ff's, the respective chiefs were either placed on administrative leave pending the invesitgation or transferred to another job in the department.
In Charleston 9 brave men died and the chief says they did nothing wrong and would fight the fire the same way again. No excuse for that. He has to go. There are firefighters scared to say anything because they know that this chief will retaiiate and they may lose their jobs.
Any LEADER will tell you that once you have lost the confidence of your personnel, you have lost the war. It is time for this chief to step down. And what's this mayor do, nothing, business as usual except for the fact that 9 brave men died. Shameful and disgusting.
Why do you citizens of Charleston put up with that. It's time for the citizens to stand up for their firefighters not a mayor who thinks he owns the city.
September 21, 2007 at 8:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
burton (anonymous) says...
mggoose2000, the leader is held to a higher standard. That is leadership 101. The chief is a lame duck chief! Everyone needs to research what the Peter Principle is because this is a classic case of it folks! Yes, the lawsuits will now start coming out. I'm sure the lawyers were just waiting for these reports to come out to give them more ammo. Anyone every heard of a "willful or wrongful death" lawsuit?
The arrogrance of King Riley is astounding! Even Bush knows when to let his people go and get someone new in. Again, I still blame the voters of Charleston that have voted King Riley in for the last 32 years! You created him so live with him! Continue to kneel and kiss his Citadel ring! The only one that has a backbone in all of this is Councilman Fishburne! The rest of the city council members are King Riley's subjects! How do they describe Charleston City govt...oh yea, a strong Mayor and a weak council. Mercy!
September 21, 2007 at 8:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
junkman (anonymous) says...
Has anyone in the Charleston FD even been through the National Fire Acadamy's Executive Fire Officer Program?
The fact there was no command center at a scene this large is unbelievable.
September 21, 2007 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
icbmman (anonymous) says...
Hotrod, you've got to be kidding me. You believe Gregorie is the best qualified candidate for the job?! I'm sorry, but I disagree. The city has not found a viable candidate to run against Joe in the past several elections, and Gregorie defines mediocrity in his campaign AND in his vision for the city.
Sadly, the citizens are going to be stuck with Riley and his crony leadership as long as mediocre candidates with lackadaisical vision continue to be the only competition. As for the chief and his administration, he probably does need to be relieved of his command. It is unfortunate, but it will probably be the best way to institute necessary changes in CFD.
September 21, 2007 at 8:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jcaulkins (anonymous) says...
Chief Grahl, I appreciate and respect your input and reasoned opinion about the June 18 fire. I disagree with your call for a boycott of Charleston. That will only hurt us, its citizens and send the wrong message. I will ask you to consider joining with other fire chiefs across the nation to write a letter of rebuke to the chief officers of the Charleston Fire Department about their conduct and behavior at the fire. If you could get your professional organization of fire chiefs to sponsor the letter and widely publicize it, that would send a powerful message.
September 21, 2007 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
If the mayor refuses to make administrative decisions regarding this fire, I would suggest, based on some statements above, that a boycott of Charleston is an excellent idea. Nine years (one for each fire fighter lost in the Sofa Super Store). Do not buy products from the City of Charleston stores, do not stay in the City of Charleston hotels/inns, do not eat at the City of Charleston restaurants. Let the business owners put pressure on the mayor. These fines (OSHA) might not bother Joe but an abrupt change in tourism certainly would.
September 21, 2007 at 9:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Mayor Rumplestiltzkin: Nearly every fire department in the country is watching this story. Please don't continue making Charleston, SC look bad as you try to fight the OSHA violations. Take the violations, learn from them, implement nationally recognized standards and have Rusty step down so the department can move forward. This department will not move forward with a leader that has lost their respect and confidence.
You can claim Rusty is the excellent chief all you want, but the firefighters doing the real job feel otherwise. You, Mayor, only continue to make Charleston and yourself look bad in the eyes of the rest of the country. Right now, I am even more ashamed of the city's response and I am a born and bred Charlestonian.
September 21, 2007 at 9:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
Rusty has caused Joe a lot of problems and I am sure he is not happy with Rusty - my guess is that Joe will ease him out when he can. Getting Joe out is going to be differcult - we need an opponent with dynamite credentials.
September 21, 2007 at 9:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
jcaulkins: I agree. A boycott would hurt the city and its citizens, but if Joe will not respond to reality, then this may be the only way to reach him. The boycott could be lifted if the mayor decides to make some logical decisions regarding these reports, the fire itself and the opinions of the CFD FFs (not the brass). There are a number of excellent places to stay, to eat and to shop in North Charleston, in Summerville and in Savannah, for that matter.
September 21, 2007 at 9:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
jcaulkins: Further, judging Riley's actions of late, he would probably just toss a letter such as you suggest in the trash can as coming from "uninformed Yankees."
September 21, 2007 at 10:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BillyTheKid32 (anonymous) says...
It is a shame that this has come to where it is now. I don't want to hear the mayors or the fire chief excuses for what happened. I don't like to see finger pointing away from ones self when they hold the blame.
I would like to know more about the man who is running against him in the election. Some background is all. You don't need much to beat the kind of "job" Charleston is getting now.
September 21, 2007 at 10:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bigbrotheriswatching (anonymous) says...
icbmman,
I have seen your comments the past few days and you typify, and are the embodiment, of why Riley has been mayor for the past 32 years. You just accept the fact that Riley will be mayor. You find any excuse to justify your reasoning to continue to promote his agenda. There are alot of people like you. So much so that this is why the majority of the registered voters in the city no longer participate in the process. If you are so unsatisfied with the choice of opponents then why don't you, as a member of a democracy, go identify, encourage and support "YOUR" candidate, then rather cry and whine about those who are "mediocre" according to you. Now before you whine and call me a Mary Clark supporter or a redneck ( like I said, I have read your posts)
Now let's look at Riley's opponents for the curreny election:
Omar Brown - A city of Charleston police officer who , is so fed up with the mayor that he has chosen to run against him. The equivalent of a firemen stepping forward and speaking out against Rusty Thomas and his Department. I would say Brown may lack the executive and managerial skills to run a city the size of Charleston, but I respect his efforts.
Mark Knapp - A very intelligent individual, Various degrees and education, professional and life experience. Has been a thorn in the mayor's side for years but has never been able to garner the numbers at the polls to be considered a serious threat. But recently has been in each election, there making a stand.
William Gregorie - A retired executive of the federal government, 32 years, 20 of those as a senior manager. He has dealt with budgets in the millions, and annual budgets in the billions. Unbeknowing to you "Icbmman", he and Riley have crossed paths during his career at HUD on several occasions. So if you are in a position to ask mayor Riley about him, I would doubt that even he would refer to him as "mediocre" .
I have visited each candidates websites, heard them all in the same room, something I bet many of you have not had the opportunity to do. And before you allow people to feed you their opinion, and this is mine, I encourage you all to really compare the candidates, because this election is a very pivitol one. It will not only make a statement as to our choice as to the leader of our city but it will state how we condone or support the current display of authoritarianism that is being displayed by the current administration.
The OSHA report was on the AP wire, so you can believe that the state, and nation will be watching this election and the outcome will either say the voters in Charleston stood up, or it will say Good Ole boys are still in charge and Charleston is not the All American City it professes to be.
September 21, 2007 at 10:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
whycantitbebetterhere (anonymous) says...
Charleston was a dangerous and delapidated city when the Mayor first took office. He has transformed this city into a major tourist destination, which has led to increased property values, jobs, opportunities to make money for a multitude of businesses, etc. He has done more for the local economy than anyone. Have you ever been to Detroit, Philadelphia, Baltimore, DC? Go there an take a look around at what inept mayors have done, and then you will understand that you don't know what in the hell you are talking about when you slam the mayor. He will be recognized 100 years from now, as a truly great and remarkable mayor, with vision, perserverance and high standards. He did all of this and has also had to manage fire, police, public works, transportation. So the fire department screwed up, and it was tragic, and it could have been prevented. Haven't any of you ever made a mistake? They will fix it, and believe me, they are suffering over it, only someone who is inhuman wouldn't be. It is easy to be so black and white about it, but I sure as hell bet if any of you personnally accidentally hurt or killed someone, you wouldn't volunteer to lose your career over it either. Any Christians at all here, I see so many casting stones.......
September 21, 2007 at 10:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
whycantitbebetterhere (anonymous) says...
Omar Brown -Noble but clueless.
Mark Knapp - A total idiot with money and some sort of ego disorder - needs therapy.
William Gregorie - HUGE EGO - Where has he been all of these years? GONE! Does he understand the community - no he is an eliteist. Must think he is entitled to it because he is so smart, and he did us the honor of coming home. He says we need a government that works for everyone - who is it not working for now - and just what in the hell do they need?
September 21, 2007 at 10:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
RE: "When I'm in the area, I will seek accomadations (sp)and buy the things I need in the City of North Charleston."
Maybe Summerville is a better candidate ... food for thought (crimes per 100k - latest FBI stats):
Murder: ---------- 13 NC ------- 10 C ------- 3 S ---------- 7 NA
Rape: ------------ 96 NC ------ 46 C ------ 29 S -------- 32 NA
Robbery: ------- 607 NC ----- 272 C ------ 98 S ------- 195 NA
Assualt: ------ 1008 NC ----- 615 C ----- 253 S ----- 340 NA
Burgularly: --- 1598 NC ----- 762 C ---- 533 S ----- 814 NA
Larceny: ------ 5892 NC ---- 3258 C ---- 3051 S ---- 2736 NA
Auto Theft:
NC - North Charleston
C - Charleston
S - Summerville
NA - Nat'l Avg
One would have a 4+ times greater chance of being murderd; a 3+ greater chance of being raped; a 6+ times grater chance of being robbed in NC than in S. Between NC, C, and S, the only one that falls below the NA in all cats. is S.
Oh ... S is also somewhat more rural ... lots of Bubba's.
September 21, 2007 at 10:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Reading publications by NIOSH is one way to learn about truss structures and other potential building risks.
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2005-132/
September 21, 2007 at 10:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scchickens (anonymous) says...
Little Joe, RT and Garvin accepted leadership roles that come with responsibility and accountability. The responsibility was FAILED, so all three should be man enough to accept accountability and step down immediately. Little Joe had full knowledge of RTs' refusals to update policy and procedure in the department. RTs' arrogant refusal to change before and after should be enough for all of us. Garvin, who saw smoke in the ceiling and didn't even remove a simple tile, shouldn't even be allowed to hold a sparkler on the 4th of july. What do you expect from a man who couldn't catch a routine fly ball on his best day, but names a multi milion dollar baseball stadium after himself. What a JO ke! If you always do the same thing today that you did yesterday, then you will always be where you are. After 32 years, here we are. Vote Vote Vote for anything new.
September 21, 2007 at 10:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
whycantitbebetterhere: Your "MB name" says it all: because Mayor Riley is in charge. Yes, the mayor did help (not single-handedly) built up the Charleston City economy, but, of late has been making, in my opinion, some really shoddy decisions affecting the city. He doesn't "manage fire"....he lets Rusty do that and he supports a chief who also has, in my opinion, made some really shoddy decisions during his career. Is that a sign of a statesman? No, it is the sign of a true politician.
"So the fire department screwed up, and it was tragic, and it could have been prevented," makes my skin crawl. NINE MEN DIED and "it could have been prevented." It will take years and years to "fix it" and meanwhile, other ff's lives are at risk. The chief does things "his way" and the mayor continues, in spite of the reports, to support him.
You are correct, God would expect us to forgive, but he would not expect us to be stupid.
September 21, 2007 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Tim: please check your pm.
September 21, 2007 at 10:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
"BOYCOTT" ........... "BOYCOTT" ............ "BOYCOTT"
September 21, 2007 at 10:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Here's a link to the specific list of recommendations in the NIOSH report on truss structures:
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2005-13...
September 21, 2007 at 11:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dog (anonymous) says...
rjahopp, you almost make me miss Summerville. From the numbers you posted, law enforcement & the justice system are certainly better there...right next door to North Chas.
September 21, 2007 at 11:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
rjahopp - You really need to be careful flying in and out of the region. Charleston International Airport is surrounded on all sides by the City of North Charleston.
Maybe your city of charleston mayor, joseph p. riley, jr. can spare a squad of city of charleston police to escourt you through the City of North Charleston.
Would be awful to become a victim of rape, assult, robbery and car theft on the way to catch your flight.
September 21, 2007 at 11:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Must be all the thousands of Summerville Police guarding the border with the City of North Charleston.
September 21, 2007 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yeahright (anonymous) says...
"whycantitbebetter"-you mention ego twice in your rebukes of the three other candidates in the upcoming election. Have you heard anything your beloved Joe Riley has said lately? The man's ego is spiralling out of control. It could be better here. But my feeling is that it's getting worse. We need new leadership, not the same old dictator.
September 21, 2007 at 11:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
whycantitbebetterhere (anonymous) says...
Oh crawly skin - I was not trying to minimize what occurred, but I doubt that you understand that what it was that I was saying. In the execution of management of large projects, there are accidents and management mistakes. While you want to elevate the men that were tragically affected to the only thing that matters, the reality is that it was a tragic event, people will have to learn from it, and it could have been prevented. However, you do not completely tear apart the mechanism which caused it because people died. You learn from it and change what needs to be changed.
Thank you for attacking my user name, if you must know, the reason I have it is because there are many things wrong here, and Mayor Riley IS NOT one of them. He is one of the few things that are right.
What is wrong is that there is far too low a standard applied to public schools (bigots don't care because their kids are not in them - or they have moved to Mount Pleasant and clustered themselves), far too low taxes are paid to support infrastructure and general maintenance of everything (bigots don't like to pay for things that are for everybody), large corporations do not locate here (because there aren't that many people available who received a good education who would fit into their corporate structure)(and it is clear that we are not spending enough on public works, facilities, schools, roads, sidewalks, cleaning, litter education, recreational facilities, law enforcement, jails, just to name a few), also wages here are very low in relation to real estate prices (bigots don't like to pay people to work for them), etc.... SO THERE YOU GO...that makes my skin crawl....
September 21, 2007 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
whycantitbebetterhere (anonymous) says...
Most of the people who are murdered or assaulted in the City of North Charleston are criminals. As long as you ain't a crack dealer you fine. Might wanna bring ya gun though, you might could help out from time to time...
Sad, though, most of the people buying drugs live in Mt. Pleasant or Charleston. The people dying in North Charleston and Charleston are just trying to sell them....
September 21, 2007 at 11:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jcaulkins (anonymous) says...
whycantitbebetter: what part of "willful violation" in the OSHA citation did you not understand?
September 21, 2007 at 11:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nitelite (anonymous) says...
whycantitbebetterhere
your name says it all.... it can be better in Charleston
Riley has been effective, no one is saying that Charleston hasn't changed, but his effectiveness has run it's course.
Scandal has marred his last 3 administrations..
Molony, Greenburg, and now Rusty...
His capital investments are failing. While our streets still flood and for all that he say's he's working on, you mean to tell me in 32 years he hasn't got a grip on the problems?
What he is afraid of is the fraud and corruption that will be revealed when someone else takes office.
He sits from his throne in city hall like a bully pulpit. Charlestonians need to pause and take note. Joe has become the person that he rallied to defeat in his first term.. Those old enough to know can tell you the story.
We need new blood downtown. Allow a new transition to spread changes throughout the city. And you cannot talk about EGO without reffering to Joe Riley.
why do you think OSHA stuck it to him? because a couple of weeks ago his EGO got to talking about OSHA and those uniforms remember? and at the time OSHA issued no statement as if to say, We have something coming for you bigmouth!
Now he is accusing them of being inaccurate?!?!? imagine that!
with a NIOSH report yet to be issued I think Riley needs to shut his mouth for a change!
September 21, 2007 at 11:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
joe - Noble but clueless.
joe - A total idiot with money and some sort of ego disorder - needs therapy.
joe - HUGE EGO - Where has he been all of these years? GONE! Does he understand the community - no he is an eliteist. Must think he is entitled to it because he is so smart, and he did us the honor of coming home. He says we need a government that works for everyone - who is it not working for now - and just what in the hell do they need?
September 21, 2007 at 11:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
rjahopp: Fine, let everyone shop, dine and spend the evening in Mt. Pleasant where the crime rates are below national average and below the City of Charleston.
From Wikopedia: City of Charleston Police Department
The City of Charleston Police Department is South Carolina's largest Police Department. Their procedures on cracking down on drug use and gang violence in the city are used as models to other cities to do the same. With a total of 382 sworn officers, 137 civilians and 27 reserve police officers, it is South Carolina's largest Police Department. According to the final 2005 FBI Crime Reports, Charleston crime level is worse than the national average in almost every major category.[14]
Notice the word "worse". Statistics can be very deceiving. For example, FBI statistics are based on those crimes REPORTED to the FBI. Another example of statistics being deceiving, pages and pages of internet training certificates.
September 21, 2007 at 11:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nitelite (anonymous) says...
Here's Riley
While your streets are flooding, I'll build you a park!
While you fight to afford to live in the city... I'll buy a asbestos filled vacant building for 11 million dollars.
While your schools suffer I'll repave King streets and redo the sidewalks so when our tourists shop they can see how pretty the ground is.
Riley wanted a fish tank, so He used our tax dollars to build an Aquarium that was out of date, and couldn't compare to those in neighboring cities, BEFORE it was completed. And it is a wonder why it isn't profitable.
But he and his cronnies made their profits in the construction process... you see Dan Molony was there for that part....
You guys better see what is going on and has been going on and let this fire situation be the justification you need to let this man go.
I don't care if he let's rusty go tommorrow! It's too late.
Joe can go to his Island and succeed from the city and run his pulpit there!
September 21, 2007 at 11:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
whycantitbebetterhere (anonymous) says...
The City of Charlston has no legal jurisdiction over schools - that is the STATE.
The City of Charleston has no legal jurisdiction over the roads - that is the STATE.
The City of Charleston also must have every action approved by - CITY COUNCIL.
Did y'all go to school here or something - you obviously need civics lesson...
September 21, 2007 at 12:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
whycantitbebetterhere (anonymous) says...
what part of "willful violation" in the OSHA citation did you not understand?
Doesn't mean it is the final or correct conclusion, of course OSHA has to cover their ass.... They were supposed to be inspecting all of these years "right"? Where is their report from 2 or 10 years ago identifying these deficiencies....plenty of ass covering by OSHA...
September 21, 2007 at 12:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Wonder how many large corporations will want to re-locate to the City of Charleston now?
September 21, 2007 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
whycantitbebetterhere (anonymous) says...
exocist_pencocky you obviously don't have an original thought to contribute... nice try
September 21, 2007 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FIRSTDUE (anonymous) says...
Mayor Riley said in his press conference that the CFD will become the international model for what FD's do after a similar incident. The CFD is already a model for international FD's. It is a model for what can happen to a FD that refuses to adopt standards that are internationally recogized and fail to educate its leaders in properly running a FD and a Firegound operation. Every fire officer curriculum in this country will have a chapter devoted to the CFD and its pre June 18th practices and the SSF. Yes the CFD and Rusty Thomas will be very famous indeed. Not for what they did post fire but what they did before and doing the fire. Mayor Riley's confidence in Chief Thomas has nothing to do with his past performance and so must be based on pure friendship.
Mayor Riley believes the command system in use that night was sufficient. I don't believe even Rusty Thomas would agree to that statement. I know dozens of ffs who where there the night and no one has come close to expressing that opinion.
Joe you have been a good public servant now quit embarassing yourself and do the right thing.
September 21, 2007 at 12:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jcaulkins (anonymous) says...
Quote from the story above: Riley said that when "incorrect conclusions" are factored out of OSHA's findings, the agency's report is actually "an affirmation of the leadership of the fire department and how hard they worked that night."
The mayor needs to be hospitalized, he is becoming delusional.
No disrespect meant to those who fought the fire June 18, I appreciate your efforts and thank you for your service.
September 21, 2007 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
juniemoon1957 (anonymous) says...
WWW>WISTV>COM REPORTS............
CHARLESTON, SC (AP) - Police in Charleston have closed off portions of a major downtown street while they investigate a suspicious package.
Police say customers at a coffee shop noticed the package in some bushes outside an office building on Calhoun Street before 9am and called authorities.
Police say the device is attached to a cell phone.
Police say some classes at the College of Charleston have been canceled as a result of the suspicious package.
Calhoun Street has been shut down between King and Pitt Streets.
Copyright 2007 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
September 21, 2007 at 12:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
juniemoon1957 (anonymous) says...
You guys be careful. Lets hope this package is nothing and at least does not start a fire until all this mess with the fire department clears up. I would hate for any further injuries to occur.
September 21, 2007 at 12:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
The problem with Mayor Riley's statement about Incident Command indicates that he has never heard proper Incident Command. There are several points that need to be addressed: First, there is NEVER an "assumed" Incident Command. Just because someone is a chief, does not mean that when he is on the scene, he is in charge. Incident Command (IC) is announced on the radio to dispatch so that all ffs on the scene know who is giving the orders. They do not have to "look around" for the chief because, if PROPERLY trained any fire fighter could be an Incident Commander. Second, the IC in most departments is identified by a very obvious IC vest he/she wears that says, in letters that glow in the dark and smoke, "Incident Commander". Third, the IC is in charge of everything....he/she may appoint an "Inside Command", consisting of ffs inside the structure, but that person reports directly to him/her, and is in charge of those ffs inside the structure. Fourth, the IC knows exactly who is in that structure by accountability or ID tags that each ff leaves with the IC BEFORE going into the structure. The IC doesn't have to call on the radio for a specific ff and ask if anyone has seen him....is he in the structure?....is he up on the ladder truck?....the IC knows if that ff is in the building because he is holding that ff's ID tag. When the ff comes out of the building, he picks up that tag from the IC. So, at any given point, before doing ANY procedure that might endanger the lives of those inside, the IC will know not only how many ffs are inside but exactly who they are. Fifth, the dispatcher is in contact with the IC to ascertain what other equipment, mutual aid or services he/she needs. This is a VERY brief idea of IC. It is more complicated than this, but it is CERTAINLY not screaming and yelling into a radio and ffs in a smoke filled environment not knowing who is in charge, etc.
September 21, 2007 at 1 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
TRUCKIE (anonymous) says...
I want to think that I have and will follow the aftermath of this fire pretty closely.
But I have one question:
Why has the Chief not defended himself and his department publicly. To me he has not spoken since the funerals. I read somewhere in this report or one just before it that he immediatley left the news conference after the Mayor finished speaking.
Now I dont know but to me if I were the Fire Chief and I believed in my department as much as my Mayor did, I would dang sure step up to the mic' and say the same things.
I dont know? Looks like the little career light in the corner of his eye is dimming.
September 21, 2007 at 1:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Vesta, the way I understand it is that there should be one other person assigned as the accountability bubba. I would think that the IC would appoint someone to do this because for the IC to do it all himself may be too much of a distraction. I could be wrong on this......
September 21, 2007 at 1:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Truckie, some recent questions directed to the chief have been referred for them to contact the city attorney. I think the Mayor and the city attorney's have quashed Rusty's public comments.
September 21, 2007 at 1:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
miki (anonymous) says...
"Riley said that the fire department had written policies in place requiring firefighters to wear full protective gear if they are actively involved in battling a blaze. Just because a few didn't follow those policies isn't a reflection on the entire department, he said."
Umm, if ICS had followed, the incident commander would have been responsible for ff not wearing uniforms. If they are implying that Chief Larry was acting incident commander, he certainly never acted like it.
September 21, 2007 at 1:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
www.firefighterhourly.com has a photo of 3 men, Chief is the middle one. It appears that at least 2 of them are not wearing proper protective gear at a fire. If the chief doesn't wear proper gear, why would anyone expect the men to? They should ALL being wearing proper gear!
September 21, 2007 at 1:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
CTgirl: Yes, in a larger fire (more ffs, bigger structure), that is an option. Again, the Accountability individual would answer to the IC also. I just tried to present it in a nutshell so that people understand IC is not "we all know if the chief is on the scene, he is in charge". It is an announced command. The chief certainly has the right to take command from the previously announced IC, but again, it is announced and not assumed. You saw the pictures of the SSS fire and smoke. To have to "look around to see if the chief is there" in order to know who is in charge is more than distracting for ffs.
There are courses specifically in Incident Command, along with the training that accompanies them. One of the posters on the MBs directed us to a site of a fire in Houston in a high rise building fire where IC was excellent. When one is properly trained in IC (not just the chiefs, but the ffs also), it flows smoothly and a lot safer than a chaotic fire scene without it which is why it is a nationally recognized and required system for fighting fires and used by progressive fire departments.
September 21, 2007 at 1:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lillycollette (anonymous) says...
Posted by nitelite
Scandal has marred his last 3 administrations: Molony, Greenburg, and now Rusty...
What he is afraid of is the -- fraud and corruption -- that will be revealed when someone else takes office.
I am in total agreement with nitelite on this one. Charleston reeks of fraud and corruption -- more than most know. I would be most pleased to sign a petition kicking Riley to the curb.
September 21, 2007 at 1:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
miki (anonymous) says...
"Clark, firefighter French's sister, said she was outraged that the Sofa Super Store was fined only about $33,000 even though it had no sprinklers and had sofas stacked high in the store. "I think that's just a slap in the face.""
Sorry Ms. Clark. Those two issues are not against any law and cannot be included in any fines or rulings.
September 21, 2007 at 1:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dreamer (anonymous) says...
Truckie--I am not sure as to your question but I do know that there was an opening for a public information officer on last week's City job line. The job was to be liason between Joe Riley's office and the Fire Chief. (I thought of applying, but I didn't want that can of worms!)
--maybe some of the firefighters who read this post can answer this:
The issues that were cited in this report, are some of them not choices made by the individual firefighter? Is the question here whether they wore it or whether it was provided at all?
I have a family member who is an official with the MEmphis fire dept. (THe same dept. that the p&c visited in June following the fire).
There, the firefighters are provided ppe and they are expected to use it. But in the heat of the moment, they ultimately are responsible for what equipment is carried into the fire.
As for Rusty Thomas...I have to be honest--I think that he is taking this harder than anyone of us could imagine. Yes, lives were lost--lives that should have been protected. They were fighting a fire, something that most of us run from. At the same time, a commander who takes his troops into battle, does so knowing that lives may be lost. That commander doesn't come away from the task thinking, "oh well, ,better luck next time!" He comes away thinking, "what can we do to see that this doesn't happen next time?" Rusty Thomas hasn't even had time to do that and already people are calling for him to resign. I am not saying that perhaps it is time for a change in leadership. I am also not saying that perhaps a new mayor is neccessitated. However,I am saying that when there is a tragedy such as this, everyone looks to point fingers. Right now--we should be focused on what can be done for the family members of the fallen. What we can do to avoid these issues in the future--and we do this by taking these reports and implementing the measures in them--over the course of TIME. While yes, there is a sense of urgency in the process...there is a tremendous amount of grieving that must take place.
September 21, 2007 at 1:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Dreamer, no disrespect to you intended, but 3 months seems like a long enough time to admit that there were mistakes and to move toward change. According to FF's that have posted here, change is being forced and I have yet to hear Rusty or Mayor Rumplestiltzkin admit mistakes were made.
September 21, 2007 at 1:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
Riley said he would "vigorously" challenge/appeal OSHA's findings..... So, at the end of the day, Riley's address in response to the Chief's resignation being called for and his address regarding OSHA's findings should just about sum things up for those few skeptics left out there. How much more "in your face" can one be?!
September 21, 2007 at 1:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reader (anonymous) says...
Whycantitbebetterhere said:
"The City of Charlston has no legal jurisdiction over schools - that is the STATE. The City of Charleston has no legal jurisdiction over the roads - that is the STATE. The City of Charleston also must have every action approved by - CITY COUNCIL. Did y'all go to school here or something - you obviously need civics lesson..."
I agree with you about the schools (although it has never stopped Joe from making education his business such as campaigning for the bond referendum a few years ago).
As to roads, you are wrong, at least in part. In Charleston, there are federally maintained roads (the Interstate), State maintained roads (parts of King St.), and City maintained roads (most local streets like Pitt St. or Legare St.). It is the locally maintained roads that have the problems.
Lastly, everyone is right to lay the blame for most of our problems on Joe's doorstep. Anyone remotely familiar with this City knows that the Mayor is the first among equals on City Council. Things don't happen without his support, and things are pushed through with it. Joe is a voting member of City Council like the others, but I'll wager that he has been in the minority on City Council votes probably fewer than a dozen times in the last decade.
Moreover, Joe is singly in charge of hiring and firing our top officials like Rusty Thomas. The other members of City Council cannot be faulted for keeping him on since they have nothing to do with the hiring decision.
September 21, 2007 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
I have finally come to the sad conclusion that the citizens can do nothing more than watch from the sidelines. With the exception of ONE city council member, no one else in city government cares about this situation or the safety of the remaining FF's.
In my opinion, it is now up to the FF's to speak up openly. If you are harassed or threatened in anyway, there are agencies to protect you against that type of harassment. If a group of 75 to 100 speak up, what are they going to do? They can't fire you all!
I think the newspapers and the citizens commenting in these forums have done of excellent job of supporting the FF's but in the end, it all comes down to you guys stepping up.
Stay safe! You guys will continue to be in my daily prayers.
September 21, 2007 at 2:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nitelite (anonymous) says...
whycantitbebetter...
you my friend are in need of a lesson..
THE CITY makes it request to the state as to what roads are given priority within the city.
THE SIDEWALKS -are a function of the STREETS AND SIDEWALKS divison of the city located on MILFORD avenue.
And as far as the schools, the county school board can have its authority removed by the city, as had been the case in various cities across the nation, when the COUNTY has not operated the schools EFFECTIVELY.
September 21, 2007 at 2:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WalkMan (anonymous) says...
I think it's important to note that a $7000 fine is the MAXIMUM fine allowable by OSHA to a government or "public" agency. This is due to the fact that OSHA does not wish to place an "undue" burden upon the taxpayers for fines. This "Willful Violation" caused OSHA to hand down the largest fine allowable, and that speaks volumes.
September 21, 2007 at 2:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reader (anonymous) says...
Nitelite -
I agree with your taking issue with Whycantitbebetterhere, but you are not correct when you say this: "And as far as the schools, the county school board can have its authority removed by the city, as had been the case in various cities across the nation, when the COUNTY has not operated the schools EFFECTIVELY." Whether or not that can be done elsewhere, there is no way that that can occur in South Carolina.
The City has absolutely no authority over the Charleston County School District. The State Department of Education can declare a school to be in crisis and put a temporary superintendent in place (as was done, I think, in Allendale a few years ago), but the City has no power at all.
September 21, 2007 at 2:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Good point walkman. That says it all.
Unfortunately, I don't think Riley, Thomas, or their cronies are listening.
September 21, 2007 at 2:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
whycantitbebetterhere (anonymous) says...
I am right, you are not only wrong but incredibly confident for someone who is so stupid. South Carolina has the fouth largest road network in the US, that is because almost all of the roads are State roads. Second, the City can make recommendations about road projects (sure - but they are funded by the State - no $ no project - what do you think the 1/2 cent was needed for?) Sidewalks - property owner or owner of the road (STATE - duh). Schools - never part of the city - never will be. DING DANG! Y'all bumpkins don't even know where you get your gov'ment from. MOSTLY - THE STATE! Do you even know who your legislator is? Talk to THEM about why some things are so crappy here!
Cities - police, fire, recreation, parks, some public works, economic development, housing (some not all), civic centers, cultural affairs, parking, signals, signage, building permits, business license, code enforcement, santiation, etc. DUH! DUH! DUH! DING DANG!
September 21, 2007 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mountain (anonymous) says...
Riley was arrogant when he tried to force James Island to join the city. He wasted thousands of tax payers dollars on legal fees. Then he was arrogant when he passed the unconstitutional smoking ban which will end up costing the tax payers more wasted money in legal fees. He is arrogant today and plans to waste more money fighting OSHA.
I don't know about anybody else but I plan to do everything I can to get him out of office, along with most of the City Council. I have written the Post and Courier exposing him many times but they refuse to expose the truth.
September 21, 2007 at 3:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
>>> whycantitbebetterhere - what do you think the 1/2 cent was needed for?<<<
The city of charleston, mayor joseph p. riley, jr. needed the money to pay
for the fancy cooper river bridge.
September 21, 2007 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yeahright (anonymous) says...
whycantitbebetter-your ignorance would be humorous if you weren't obviously one of the mindless lemmings lining up to vote Riley back into office. Obviously not from here, referring to "ya'll bumpkins", yet you complain about how "crappy" it is here while pledging your allegiance to Joe Riley. Do your part to make it better here...leave.
September 21, 2007 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Dear Why: I learned a long time ago to never argue with someone whose opinion I don't respect.
September 21, 2007 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Mr. Coffee stated that Rusty needed a chance to mourn. Well, he's got the rest of his life to do that, doesn't he. Meanwhile, CFD FF are still trooping off to do their duty, trying to function safely with poor training and leadership that is too busy trying to cover it's butt to lead. I wouldn't have had such an issue with Rusty if I felt that he knew that he'd not done well by his men and was trying to improve their circumstances. Instead I feel like he's just trying to get himself out of a jam. If he came back to work on June 19th with a plan to prevent this incident from ever occurring again. If he hadn't intimidated his firefighters in order to cover his ass- This isn't the first time tragedy's struck. Does anyone remember Albright and Wilson? It appears that the leadership hasn't changed, in many ways. The city was levied fines in 1991 for the AW explosion- for not wearing proper bodyguard and scba. 33 people were injured and 2 killed. A screw-up of major proportions. Both times.
September 21, 2007 at 3:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Ward: Didn't nine people die in that AW fire?
September 21, 2007 at 4:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
http://www.live5news.com/news/state/9...
September 21, 2007 at 4:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Vesta,
I believe that there were at least 4...might have been nine...I'll check..I tried to find news on that fire online..didn't see it...so much for Google
September 21, 2007 at 4:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
It still, as Ward says, was a "screw-up of major proportions." Riley will have a "unique" legacy in his 32 year reign. I still believe a boycott of the city of Charleston by locals and all ffs from across the nation who travel in or near here would hurt the mayor in a big way---tourism.
September 21, 2007 at 4:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
City of Charleston website says 9 were killed at then AW fire
September 21, 2007 at 4:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
I didn't even think of the AW incident until someone else mentioned it, saying that OSHA levied heavy fines against the city at that time as well. That fire was what spurred Charleston County to upgrade/institute their HAZ-MAT program. To the best of my recollection, only two died but there were many injuries. I also seem to recall that Rusty was acting at the time, and it was shortly before he was actually promoted to chief. Someone with a better memory might have more/better details.
September 21, 2007 at 4:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yeahright (anonymous) says...
How does it hurt Riley if I don't have dinner at T-Bonz on the Market tonight? The only way to hurt him is at the polls.
September 21, 2007 at 4:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
whycantitbebetterhere (anonymous) says...
I will never leave - most of the ignorant people are senior citizens, so we won't have to wait long! Ding Dang! I was born here - just had the good fortune to be educated where they speak English and rank 1st in education. I am so sick you you "fake" polite people, you are mean-asses in your heart where it counts. Whoo - hoo! Ding! Dang!
September 21, 2007 at 4:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nitelite (anonymous) says...
Reader,
you stopped way short of what my statement was regarding schools. Just as in the case a "CHARTER" school can run, operate and administer to a school in a community, the city can do the same, even if it needs to make its case on the state level. the city does has power, especially in this city. Some of you may not know but Riley is behind the scenes right now orchestrating efforts with a group in this city concerning certain schools. Check with your constituent school biard members on this.
September 21, 2007 at 4:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
I can't resist asking just where you were educated. I can see you learned all about ding dings.
September 21, 2007 at 5:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Ward, from reading some of the prior posts, "Why" is a North Charleston resident, that may be employed by the school system in some capacity
September 21, 2007 at 5:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yeahright (anonymous) says...
Ding? Dang? Whoo hoo? This has become ridiculous. I'm going to have a beer with some "relatively" intelligent folks at the pub down the street. Although you do make a good argument that a good education depends on what you put into it.
You probably should have put a little more...
September 21, 2007 at 5:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
According to an archived P&C article, nine people died in the Albright and Wilson fire on June 17, 1991.
http://archives.postandcourier.com/ar...
The article is dated 2001, most likely written in reflection of the 10th anniversary.
September 21, 2007 at 5:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
yeahright: It won't hurt Riley at all if you have dinner at T-Bonz tonight. However, there are vast numbers of fire fighters across the nation, who make trips to the east coast, who make trips south and north. These ffs have a vast number of friends who also travel and, given the word by ffs, would gladly boycott the city of Charleston.
September 21, 2007 at 5:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Well now, the Albright Wilson article was interesting....
One of our own City Council members, Wendell Gilliard was the Union president for the plant back then. Wonder why he does not listen to the FF's Union now?????
September 21, 2007 at 6:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Anyone catch Channel 5 in the "call in section?" Rusty said emphatically he would NOT get rid of Rusty because he believes Rusty is a "seasoned, energetic" chief who is needed to put these panel suggestions in place. Well, DUH, Mayor, if the chief is so "seasoned" why didn't he put progressive, updated techniques, training and equipment in place PRIOR TO JUNE 18???? BOYCOTT!!!!! and DOCUMENTATION BY THE FFS!!!
September 21, 2007 at 6:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Reader (anonymous) says...
Nitelite -
I think you and I probably agree on most of what this article is all about, but I have to disagree about the school issue. In South Carolina, a city cannot organize a public school. Public schools in Charleston County are the exclusive authority of the Charleston County School District.
Charter schools are just a type of public school which are approved by the county board and ultimately accountable to the county board, but which are overseen in their daily operations by someone else. More importantly, though, the only entities that can, by law, sponsor (that is, create) charter schools are either (1) individuals or (2) nonprofit companies. The City of Charleston is neither.
I think our discussion is probably getting a little far afield of the topic at hand though, so I'll let you have the last word if you still disagree with me about this.
September 21, 2007 at 6:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
yeahright (anonymous) says...
One last one, then I'm gettin a beer...An entire race has supposedly been boycotting SC for years now because of the flag at the statehouse and an NAACP call for a boycott. I just don't think it's very effective. Certainly not as effective as voting him out of office. And the people hurt by these "boycotts" are waitresses with kids not politicians.
September 21, 2007 at 6:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Well, yeahright, fire fighters are, by nature, tenacious and aggressive in many ways. If I were you, I would certainly not challenge them. Voting and boycott until decisions are made to keep the ffs safe and home at the end of EACH AND EVERY SHIFT.
September 21, 2007 at 6:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Anyone catch the Channel 2 poll. 80% of the voters want Rusty out, 18% want him left in and the rest are indifferent.
September 21, 2007 at 6:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
RTC (anonymous) says...
Charleston just got another promo on the Travel Channel. Anthony Bourdain did a special on the lowcountry and it's fine cuisine. Tourists are not likely to boycott the city. Locals might take their business elsewhere, but do people really want to hurt the private business owners in the city?
People need to pick places to boycott that will hurt Riley in a more personal way. Maybe his precious fish tank or his ballpark for starters?
September 21, 2007 at 6:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
OldChasFirefighter (anonymous) says...
The AW fire was what caused Wilmot to retire and Rusty got his job. Rusty was a bat chief then.
September 21, 2007 at 6:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
RTC: If Riley will not listen to the CFD ffs, if he will not listen to OSHA, if he will not listen to reason, perhaps the businesses in the city of Charleston can make him listen. As I said, I would not challenge the fire fighters of this country....they are a tight knit group.
September 21, 2007 at 6:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
BTW, RTC, I am sure that promo was filmed prior to the SSS fire.
September 21, 2007 at 6:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
OldChasFF: Did Wilmot retire willingly or was he "forced out"?
September 21, 2007 at 6:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
RTC (anonymous) says...
vesta, I'm sure you are right about the filming date. The show was just aired the other night.
You are also right about firemen being closeknit. My husband was a fireman and a police officer over 28 yrs. ago,and he still feels a bond to these men.
September 21, 2007 at 6:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Wilmot turned in his 2 weeks notice. When he found out how small the fine was he wanted it back but the mayor wouldn't let him stay on. Riley already had Rusty lined up for the job.
September 21, 2007 at 6:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Wasn't Guthke close to his 70's when he retired?
September 21, 2007 at 6:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WalkMan (anonymous) says...
TrinityTim;
I realize many at the CofC are probably not listening, the real question is: Are the voters?
September 21, 2007 at 6:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nitelite (anonymous) says...
Reader,
It's ok, I am picking up some points and not afraid to stand corrected.
September 21, 2007 at 7:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
WalkMan
I am not sure - took an informal pole today at a bar and a barber shop - folks I spoke to didn't seem to have all the facts - the gen. population needs to be informed and I hope the P&C will gets the job done, before election day. I think it is important for each and every one of us to talk it up.
September 21, 2007 at 7:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WalkMan (anonymous) says...
I continue to read comments stating that it "appears there is a lot of bitterness towards the leaders of City of Charleston & its Fire Department."
Yes there is!
Nine men/friends/brothers/family members died a preventable death. Yes preventable!!! What happened the night of June 18, 2007 had been predicted for years. It was sheer luck it had not happened earlier. (How many times have you seen someone recklessly driving on a motorcycle without a helmet? You know what's coming, just not when it's going to happen.) Not only has it been predicted, but screamed for all to hear over and over and over. It fell on deaf ears. It wasn't important; it was disgruntled employees or jealous rival agencies. Where was the proof, no one had been hurt? Where was its news worthiness? What made these predictions worthy of the public's attention? I mean, come-on one City firefighter received an award from the President of the United States just a few years ago for entering a burning building without protective gear, a partner, or a hose line, climbed several floors and made a rescue. Surely THAT should justify the City's aggressive tactics. Why should anyone listen, no firefighter had died in nearly 50 years! And besides, "we CAN'T fight fire downtown the way everyone else does it. Not in the historic district." The City had been sued several times successfully over their practices and on at least one occasion found in CONTEMPT for reversing a courts ruling towards the firefighters. A GOVERNMENT found in contempt?!?! How do you feel when you exert your efforts to protect something/someone/someone's that you care about for a very long time just to watch all your fears come to bear in front of you!!??
Yes...bitterness is a fair word. Resentment and anger works also.
September 21, 2007 at 7:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
WalkMan: Let us also throw the word "disgust" in there. Disgust for a chief who would not admit his mistakes even after reports came out pointing out what was wrong with his department (mainly everything he had control over, such as training, incident command, equipment and his own leadership). Disgust for a mayor who continues to support his "seasoned and energetic chief". And disgust for people who continue to support both of them. Disgust for the intimidation that is practiced on all levels in the City of Charleston.
September 21, 2007 at 7:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Pluffmuddy (anonymous) says...
Vesta, ditto on your word "disgust"... As a native, I've watched Riley's shenanigans for decades. As a Jim Isle boy, I know firsthand about his intimidation M.O.... He basically threatened my family with condemnation/eminent domain if we didn't sell him our property for a new FIRE STATION. Of course, he won that battle as there's little one can do to stop that kind of dirty dealing...arrrrgggghhhh....
September 21, 2007 at 8:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Pluffmuddy: These stories do not surprise me....to lose family land is also a tragedy, especially under those conditions.
September 21, 2007 at 8:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Pluffmuddy (anonymous) says...
Harpo, you're very generous with your percentage...I'd be inclined to think there are 75% who DON'T read it. I think people in general would rather b*tch and moan rather than educating themselves to the facts...how else do so many jerks get elected?
September 21, 2007 at 8:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
What is the MB?
September 21, 2007 at 8:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Message Board
September 21, 2007 at 8:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
beemz (anonymous) says...
oh my goodness ...the truth about that horrible night is finally coming to light.
the chas.9 did not die in VAIN.
my prayers to the family and friends also the brave firefighters who continue to do their job in spite of their incompetent leaders.
jmho
p.e.t.t.
p.s. mmeemz cool name notice mine?
take care
September 21, 2007 at 8:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
Thank you vesta for the info. Duh- I should have known that.
Thank you beemz- yours too!
September 21, 2007 at 8:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Now it is time for action , not words. Come on CFD men and women the ball is in your court for once make a stand there is not a more noble cause. In the honor of the nine brothers that have given the ultimate sacrifice for the changes that are needed stand as one and show that we won't tolerate this anymore.
September 21, 2007 at 8:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Here's an archived P&C article about some of the annexations.
http://archives.postandcourier.com/ar...
From a fire safety perspective, I find the annexations worrisome.
When property gets so spread out, I worry that there may not be a deep enough response if an apparatus fails (i.e. an engine wrecks or can't pump water) or if bridges experience problems (high winds or earthquake).
I also worry whether the city can adequately gather enough data on all the structures and their code compliance quickly enough to assimilate information into pre-fire planning.
September 21, 2007 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
F7: I read the article and understand your concerns. Corruption from the beginning, right? Other than Hugo which was a bad one, Charleston hasn't experienced a hurricane like Gracie, for some time. Roads can wash out and, as you said, bridges can experience problems. Is the data on the structures only kept at headquarters or are copies available at every station and on every truck?
September 21, 2007 at 9:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
scchickens (anonymous) says...
Sad but true!
Little Joe must go. If everyone that complains would get off their rear and vote, especially the blacks that are being run out of town, we could get rid of EGO JOE. NO offense to the black community but it's a sad fact that the majority does not vote. Joe is for the rich white elite.
September 21, 2007 at 9:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
The City of Charleston has taken strong objection to OSHA's citation re "WILLFUL VIOLATION: The department knew or should have known that its fire scene command system did not provide for the safety of firefighters. ($7,000)"
Mayor Riley indicated that the City's challenge is appropriate since (1) the CFD had a written IC procedure to provide for the safety of firefighters at the time of the SSS fire and (2) OSHA bases the charge on NFPA 1561 - Standard for Emergency Service Incident Command System which the Mayor contends has not been adopted in the State of S.C.
Reviewing the South Carolina - Department of Labor, Licensing and Regulation, Division of Fire and Life Safety, Office of State Fire Marshal, Columbia, S.C.; List of Currently Adopted Editions of Codes and Standards (effective July 27, 2007) supports the Mayor's position. NFPA 1561 is in fact not contained within the list of adopted NFPA Standards and, therefore, is not applicable in this State.
September 21, 2007 at 10:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
rjahopp: And obviously the CFD's written IC procedure worked real well to provide for the safety of firefighters at the time of the SSS fire.
September 21, 2007 at 10:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ssm (anonymous) says...
rjahopp-"NFPA 1561 is in fact not contained within the list of adopted NFPA Standards and, therefore, is not applicable in this State." Where is it said that OSHA can only fine for the NFPA Standards that it has adopted? OSHA looks to the NFPA standards when investigating FD issues. It has adopted some, however, I am not under the impression that those are the only one's it can fault a dept for.
September 21, 2007 at 10:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WalkMan (anonymous) says...
"In most cases, compliance with NFPA standards is voluntary. However, in some cases, Federal or state OSHA agencies have incorporated wording from NFPA standards into regulations. In these cases, the compliance with the standards is mandatory.
Regardless of whether compliance with an NFPA standard is voluntary or mandatory, fire and rescue departments must consider the impact of "voluntary" standards on private litigation. In some states, a department may be liable for the negligent performance of their duties. Even in states that protect rescue workers under an immunity statute, most state laws do not protect fire or rescue departments for grossly negligent acts. Essentially, negligence involves the violation of a standard of care that results in injury or loss to some other individual or organization. In establishing the standard of care for rescue operations, the courts will frequently look to the "voluntary" standards issued by NFPA and other organizations. Although "voluntary" in name, these standards can become, in effect, the legally enforceable standard of care for fire or rescue department. Accordingly, fire and rescue departments should pay close attention to applicable standards."
http://www.nvfc.org/regs04.html
September 21, 2007 at 10:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
east3 (anonymous) says...
Dreamer got me thinking about how you get everyone to wear their gear. Here, when a crew gets off an engine to investigate a fire alarm, they are geared up with SCBA, and highrise packs downtown, ready to go into a fire, even when 98% of the time it's a false alarm. You have to have a culture of FF safety from the top down that is seen to be serious. And a strong union really helps. Visit the IAFF website and you will see that FF safety is one of the very top priorities, and when a local union fights over the past decades of change to have the city pay for the fireboots and the gloves and to adopt the turnout pants (in place of the old pull-up boots) and nomex hoods and better SCBA, etc. then the union too expects their members to use it and is not going to defend anyone who is disciplined for failure to use the safety gear they fought to get. Now you have a culture of safety that is both top down and bottom up. Look at the 2002 recommendations from the Charleston union - there were issues of pay, vacation scheduling and facilities, but there were also issues of safer uniforms and most importantly - the very issue on which the state found the city willfully negligent the failure to adopt national standards for command, and they addressed staffing and response. More on this as it is really remarkable to compare the SC OSHA report with that part of the union 2002 report and with some of the Task Force Recommendations. If the Chief had listened to the union even five years ago and started with the progressive changes to adopt national standards that they proposed, they would not be found willfully at fault, and perhaps you would not have had nine funerals.
September 21, 2007 at 10:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
right2work (anonymous) says...
NFPA = Not for practical application
September 21, 2007 at 10:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
florida_ff (anonymous) says...
I know that I don't live in Charleston and I might need to keep my options to myself. But when 9 of my "family" dies, and after what I have read, I need to speak. To my "brothers and sisters" of CFD, I am sorry for your loss. I made the trip up for the mass service as a visiting Honor Guard member and was honored to do what little we were asked to do. That being said, God help you all, start educating yourselves, you supervisors wouldn't do it. Boosterlines, single 2 1/2 supply lines, not pulling ceilings with smoke puffing from them, opening an outside door only to have the fire rip it from your hands, not remembering that there were roll-down fire doors portioning the building and having a hoseline deployed though it, not doing full PARs when an emergency button is activated, not knowing how many crews were in the building after the Mayday was called, Chief only calling for one crews location, no ventilation of the building, all crews with hoselines or lifelines in large commercial buildings, not having your gear fully on ready for action. These are things taught in basic firefighting. IFSTA, Jones and Bartlett has basic firefighter books as well as Pump Operator books. Buy them and give them to your chiefs, they need them. Chief Thomas prides himself as always being in the city, leaving to pick-up new fire trucks. He needs to leave and attend so training. He will be lucky if he is not brought up on manslauder charges. An Assistant Chief in the state of New York was after a firefighter died in late September 2001 during a training fire. Fir the city to sit back and thumb their nose at the report stating that the state does not specifically call for something that is common knowledge in the career make me want to vomit. When the NIOSH report comes out, the city leaders and the chief are going to hang their hat on the fact that sprinklers would have put the fire out had they been there. That was true in The Station fire when rubber foam was used to line the walls of the nightclub. If that building were sprinklered, the report stated no one would have died and the fire would have been extinguished.
I have ranted enough, again brother and sister of CFD, I am sorry for your loss. Never Forget and learn form the past.
September 21, 2007 at 10:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Thank you florida_ff for sharing your comments. I keep asking myself why so many ffs from around the country can recognize all of this and the CFD brass, the mayor and some of the council members cannot see the writing on the wall even when it is written with the blood of the brave nine souls who perished due to willful negligence.
September 21, 2007 at 10:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
vesta - in my humble opinion - Yes.
ssm - re "Where is it said that OSHA can only fine for the NFPA Standards that it has adopted?"
I haven't read the full OSHA report, but, the Mayor indicated that OSHA had based the Willful Violation of an IC Standard citation on the NFPA Standard which the State has not adopted; he also goes on to say that OSHA did not correctly document the Willful Violation part of the citation within their report, even if the base charge had been true.
Walkman,
please see the reply above to ssm regarding the OSHA reports in reference to the NFPA Standard.
re private litigation: I am not an attorney but I believe that the City of Charleston is bound by State Law, not voluntary standards - that's why the State Labor and Licensing Dept. exists. IF the CFD's IC procedures meet the standards enforced by S.C. OSHA, they have met their compliance obligation.
re: negligence. To date negligence re the SSS has not been established.
re standard of care for rescue operations. I believe that standard applies to the rescue of citizens (re J. Tyrrell), not professional firefighters.
re paying attention to NFPA standards. Although the CFD is in compliance with S.C. IC standard, in response to the recommendations made by its expert panel, which reviewed the CFD's safety and firefighting practices, a proactive change is being made by the City and the CFD, evidenced by adopting the NFPA IC Standard.
September 21, 2007 at 10:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ffwife (anonymous) says...
I've never posted on this (or any) site before, but I have been following the story. I agree that making a change is the only way for this fire department to successfully move forward.
I have heard that there is just no way the Riley will get rid of Rusty, and in fact, by his own words, fully supports Chief Rusty. However, I also know good old Joe is a politician to the end. And, I just wanted to throw out this very "far out" theory to those of you who are more in the know:
Jim Bowie (I think that's the guys name) just gave his notice today - it was in an article I read somewhere. What if Riley has been talking to this guy all along about coming to be Charleston's fire chief? Wouldn't it be just like Joe to continue to offer "unwavering" support for Rusty and then, in order to better serve the needs of the people of the City of Charleston, remove Rusty and appoint Mr. Bowie as his successor.
This way Joe can play the ever vigilant city leader who is truly listening to his constiguents. He may continue to say that he had full faith in Rusty and his ability to lead the fire department, but that the CITY had spoken and as their very humble leader of 32 years, he has listened. Therefore, he has replaced Rusty with someone of the caliber of Mr. Bowie.
Although, I freely admit that I don't have any idea exactly what Mr. Bowie's credentials are. But, I do seem to recall that his resignation was very sudden and unexpected.
Again, this is propably way out there, but it has been on my mind since I read it.
Thank you to those of you who are doing battle for the CFD men!
God bless the families of The Nine! You are forever in my thoughts and prayers.
September 21, 2007 at 11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
For those of you who want to read what our governor ordered about following NIMS regulations on Incident Command, read the following article from the P&C on the IAFF Terra Haute site:
http://www.iaff758.com/index.cfm?zone...
September 21, 2007 at 11:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ssm (anonymous) says...
You are partly correct in your thinking ffwife-Rusty and Riley are fond of Mr. Bowie. However, it appears there is a little controversy surrounding him right now.
http://www.palmettoscoop.com/2007/09/...
September 21, 2007 at 11:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
east3 (anonymous) says...
Right to Work you know nothing about firefighting. The fact is that if NFPA standards and a NIMS compliant command system had been in place, the Nine at least would have had a chance. Granted these are still not a complete defense against chief officers ignorant of basic tactical principles, but if CFD had a real command system, that might imply that the chiefs had some command training and maybe would know a little bit about fire tactics. And with more resources on the initial alarm, a major point the union fought for in 2002, the initial attack might have been a success.
CFD has plenty of personnel on duty to staff with four, send more apparatus on the first alarm, and provide for a Safety Officer and RIT and Accountability and Rehab. They are not a rural backwater without enough personnel in the county to cover the basic assignments. I know because I work for a department with the same level of personnel on duty each day that CFD has and we defend a center city population about 50% more than Charleston. We have a strong union which means not just better wages and benefits and shorter hours (48 per week vs. 56), but a real commitment to firefighter health and safety as well.
I have heard it said that "the less you know about something, the easier it is to have an opinion." You are proof of that. You sound like some stooge for an anti-union organization that doesn't care if firefighters die as long as they don't get democratic representation and the right to fight for their own good (sounds like America to me!). Your earlier post referred folks to a website full of BS information about the IAFF, even confusing railroad "firemen" with firefighters.
September 21, 2007 at 11:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Here are several important comments from the article cited above.
Gov. Mark Sanford signed an executive order in 2005 ordering all fire departments to ensure that their internal incident command policies come in line with NIMS.
Federal incident command guidelines call for a formal passage of command, so that the arriving commander can be briefed on what's happening and so that firefighters know who's in charge.
Thomas said city firefighting rules do not require a verbal passing of command. "I'm just going to let you know we have our own incident command system. We have it written that the highest-ranking official is automatically in charge. I don't care how it is anyplace else."
He said a formal pass-off of responsibility is not required by the department because all of its firefighters know the internal policy.
So, my question would be, do the ffs in burning structures know who is in command if there is no formal pass off of command on the radio? Do they have to be able to see through walls and smoke? What the heck kind of an IC is that??
September 21, 2007 at 11:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Wow...I leave for the day and the place lights up! Honey I'm home!!!...
Bootlicked is correct...Bowie is out, but he isn't coming here...I would, however, find that interesting, considering he is a Republican and Riley is a Democrat...I don't know how the two of them get along, but Rusty and Bowie are friends...
The ICS was cited because it wasn't implemented properly according to NIMS...let them call OSHA back in...might be a blessing in disguise...I'll pop the popcorn! Butter anyone?
September 22, 2007 at 12:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Here are additional NIMS links:
http://www.scemd.org/Library/NIMS/int...
http://www.scemd.org/Library/NIMS/200...
http://www.scemd.org/Library/NIMS/Let...
florida__ff: Thanks for your interest and concern.
September 22, 2007 at 1:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
florida_ff (anonymous) says...
One point I forgot to dwell on, and I hope the department and city leaders are reading this. As I said, single 2 1/2" supply lines are a thing of the past. Duel 2 1/2" should be as well. Assuming that the pumpers were discharging only 500 gpm (well under the needed amount for the BTUs burning), Basic fiction loss 101.
a single 2 1/2" supply had a friction loss of 50 psi/100'
two 2 1/2" supply had a friction loss of 12.5 psi/100'
1 single 3" supply has a friction loss of 20 psi/100'
two 3" supply has a friction loss of 5 psi/100'
4" supply has a friction loss of 5 psi/100'
5" supply has a friction loss of 2 psi/100'
Now, is the pumper were handling more lines, 1,000 gpm, these figures get a lot worse.
1 - 2 1/2" = 200 psi/100'
2 - 2 1/2" = 50 psi/100'
1 - 3" = 80 psi/100'
2 - 3" = 20 psi/100'
1 - 4" = 20 psi/100'
1 - 5" = 8 psi/100'
Now multiply these by 5 since hydrants SHOULD be only 500' apart in that area and add the standard (opps, there is that word again) 20 psi reserve, you need to use a second pumper and lose one person to operate the pump at the hydrant to relay pump to the scene. Don't forget that the pump can only deliver capacity to 150 psi, 70% at 200 psi and 50% at 250 psi.
Chief, if you can't figure out to put a piece of plywood in the middle of out hosebed to lay two hoses at once, buy LDH and enter the year 1990 and keep your crews from handjacking multiple supply lines and calling to boost the pressure 200 more pounds.
Or better yet, unless you can get enough GPM for the BTUs of the fire, let all of your firefighters be "outstanding" firefighters (I loved that saying, one who are caught out side). At least they will be alive. Buildings, historical or not, are not worth a life and they will affect the tax base less then the wrongful death suits that will be filed.
September 22, 2007 at 1:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
right2work (anonymous) says...
Here are our cast of online characters. A little something to make everyone mad today.
nickiegarbeil The gadfly, pot stirrer extraordinaire, and unreformed ex-Yankee. She leads the mob, and works to keep the trouble stirred up. Working on her pre-law degree, and like all in the legal profession, is trying to make a name for herself. Also has adopted this as her soccer mom crusade.
vesta -- nickiegarbeil's sidekick, for more information see Robin from the Batman and Robin series.
bootlicked Disgruntled ex-City of Charleston Captain. Couldn't hack it, so he got his jacket. Seems to be very upset about Chief Tommy, and Chief O'Donald . Maybe if he wasn't so disgruntled and was more positive about his Job, he could be a chief now, maybe even have O'Donalds job. He may be suffering from a bad case of survivor's guilt.
East3 Northern chief officer. He seems to be intelligent and know his stuff, but unfortunately also arrogant. Like most Yankees he wants to force his northern ways on the south. He has also bought in to the rhetoric of a obsolete and unnecessary organization. The organized labor movement has been the ruination of the northern industrial base, but like so many of the unenlightened from the north, he wants to spread these failed polices.
fyrmnjim East3's sidekick, for more information see Robin from the Batman and Robin series.
exorcist_pencocky Anti-Mayor Riley to the Nth degeree. From posting history seems to have a problem anyone that is above him socially. Reverse classism is alive and well in the low country. Is very concerned about the plantation mentality, but he really seems to have the about the same mentality, just in reverse.
charleytowngirl Thoughtful and truly concerned about the plight of the firefighters and the fire department, but horrible misguided by those who want to throw out the baby with the bath water. She could really become a force for good if she refocused her energy in to positive change rather than buying in to the reverse cult of personality.
rjahopp Unabashed supporter of lil' Joe. exorcist_pencocky's alter-ego, can't see the forest for the trees either. Will support the little old mayor no matter what. Has some good ideas, but needs to see both sides of the situation.
THISMUSTSTOP, Boosterhose, Oldfric07, etc. See bootlicked, just some have gotten their jacket yet.
right2work - Likes to watch the ROACHES run around when the lights are turned on, and the bucket of ROACHES is stirred.
September 22, 2007 at 10:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
right2work- an individual who places himself/herself in the role of pseudo-psychologist, not understanding the real reason we are posting here: to make certain a horrific fire like this does not happen again by improving training, making sure correct equipment is in place and by changing antiquated leadership.
These postings would not have occurred had Chief Thomas and the Mayor been able immediately to admit that mistakes had been made and investigations would take place, instead of saying that the CFD is #1 in the entire nation and that nothing would change from the date of that fire.
We, on these and other MBs are trying to make sure that no more fire fighters die because of antiquated policies. At times we do get angry at ridiculous statements and at those who find some kind of "sick humor" in this by posting a "cast of characters". Please try to remember that nine men died on June 18.
September 22, 2007 at 10:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Vesta, ROFLMAO
September 22, 2007 at 11:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Right2work- Dog who when he gets kicked keeps returning to lick his masters hand.
September 22, 2007 at 11:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ssm (anonymous) says...
right2work-Once again you have proven your ability to judge character. Aren't you the one who said, "I'm not a member of or affiliated in anyway with the SCFA, but I understand that it is a fine and upstanding organization. It seems to be devoid of corruption..."
September 22, 2007 at 11:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Vesta..the term ROACHES gives him away...his wife's lace is showing under his trousers....considering his terminology of Roaches that he had posted under a picture of several children, and the reactions of disgust he received.. he has had to abandon his previous name and come up with a new alias...remember who I am referring to?
The toilet water is circling the drain now...the turds are looking for a way out of the bowl...and in the process they are trying to take those of us who don't drink the kool-aid are a HUGE threat, and they want to shut us up...the post is somewhat humorous, considering the source...his pathetic attempt at licking his master's hand from afar...I would suggest we all sit back and laugh and throw the dog a bone...
September 22, 2007 at 11:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
ssm...isn't SCFA the organization that Bowie works for? Devoid of corruption?????? LOL I bet he is pulling the shoe leather out of his mouth today isn't he? http://www.firefighterhourly.com/fire...
There is his hero organization...LOL BTW, my Bowie's own admission, he is friends with Rusty...so NOW the full circle is recognized...this dog is impressing his owner, Rusty...his allegiance to Bowie reflects that...
September 22, 2007 at 11:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
*BY Bowie's own admission...(typo)
September 22, 2007 at 11:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
SSM...check your private mail
September 22, 2007 at 11:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
New post...Right2work..or should I say Grant??...We look forward to speaking TO you and ABOUT you in the future...
For those of us he is posting about..one of his best friend is the bootlick from Ky...
September 22, 2007 at 11:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Are the 2 of them a relay team? Let's see who he passes the baton to next.
September 22, 2007 at 11:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Would seem that way...since the one "lick" has been banned from a few sites, from what I hear...
September 22, 2007 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Florida_ff,
Thank you for that breakdown...don't mind the comments about people's personalities on here...they are meant to overcrowd the information being put out there by many of you in the brotherhood..it is a threat to their very existence...it shows the citizens here that our men were kept in the dark for years and years while the administration stayed fat and happy...they want to overshadow the information you all bring to the boards so that we, the citizens rallying behind the "opposition" will miss your comments...
Keep talking..we ARE listening...and thank you for being a hero...
Respectfully,
Nickie Garbeil...I would be the gadfly he spoke of! LOL
September 22, 2007 at 12:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
"ROACHES": a term used as a caption to a photo of Mayor Riley surrounded by children of a certain race at a City of Charleston Fire Dept. display. Photo appeared on the FirefighterNation page of a bootlick that now lives/works in KY. Referenced photo caused said bootlick to be banned from other blogs.
September 22, 2007 at 12:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
right2work (anonymous) says...
I've never been to Kentucky, I assure you I'm not a bootlick, and my name is not Grant. 3 strikes you're out!
September 22, 2007 at 1:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
I assure you I am hardly out..the awareness that we have brought to people, both in this blog and outside on the streets of Charleston, meeting with citizens, is far more important than the weigh in of a character assessment from someone who is too afraid to use their real name...
September 22, 2007 at 1:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Right2work: I never said you were any of those things. I'n merely trying to enlighten the readers as to where the term "roaches" comes in. Jeez, why are you so defensive?
September 22, 2007 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
righttowork:
You still using road runner? Cause I know who you are "boy".
September 22, 2007 at 2:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
saveaff (anonymous) says...
As a fire chief, your number one priority is the safety of your firefighters. period! The job is dangerous enough without a leader that doesn't provide the needed direction to insure the safety of his men! Everyone that works at CFD knew this for years. All the surrounding departments knew this. It is a topic that came up in many conversations about CFD. I've heard many times "They are going to get someone killed one day with their old school ways". Well, that day arrived and now it's time for city officials to wake up and take action against the fire chief. He needs to be fired.
All citizens need to make a point to call their representative on council and express the way they feel about firing the chief. Also remind them that you and your family will be voting in the next election for their seat.
September 22, 2007 at 2:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
saveaff: been there, done that. Only ONE member of city council, Henry Fishburne, is concerned about this issue. This is part of the problem these guys in the CFD and the citizens are facing.
September 22, 2007 at 2:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
right2work (anonymous) says...
Road runner, that's a bird right. ]No one every called me boy. Good try, but wrong. Try again.
September 22, 2007 at 2:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
I still say we should have a Rally for Change or Rally for Safety. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to organize something like this, but would certainly be happy to do whatever I can to help.
September 22, 2007 at 2:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Do the fire departments still have their big display in Sept. or October every year. I remember going to the ones at Charlestowne Landing when I was married to a FF.....Isn't Sept or October designated as Fire Awareness month or something?
September 22, 2007 at 2:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
right2work...
Your willingess to put your ignorant little butt kissing, paranoid, worthless career ahead of the lives of the true professional firefighters makes your opionions worthless. Absolutley worthless.
As a matter of prinicipal, this chief should have been suspended pending the completion of the investigations that were ongoing. Riley's unwillingness to do so once again put the lives of the brave CFD firefighters in danger and showed that he doesn't care about the men and women who put their lives on the line every day. No person of intgegrity puts his friendship with someone ahead of the lives of his employees.
The loss of 9 firefighters in a single fire is prima facia evidence of incompetency and the mayor ought to be run out of town by the citizens of Charleston and if I thought you were smart enought to drive, I'd put you behind the wheel. You obviously aren't so I guess you'll be left to clean up the toilets after the new chief takes over.
I will no longer read any of your posts. I will however, do everything I can to help the true professional firefighters in the CFD and that does not iclude you.
Oh and BTW, the aforementioned comments are offerred with all due respect. LOL. You should feel free to add this retired police officer to your list of characters. Keep in mind, that I know how to run an investigation and you don't scare me.
September 22, 2007 at 2:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Wow Trinity...I'm in awe! LOL (bows to the master) ;)
September 22, 2007 at 2:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
right2work (anonymous) says...
Why are you all so intent on making more carnage out of the SSS fire. Isn't enough that 9 people died, now you want to ruin careers and lives. As you all continue to put pressure on on people might just cause them to 37. Yet more lives lost due to the SSS fire. Hope you are all proud of yourselves.
September 22, 2007 at 3:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
right2work's goal this morning was to derail the conversation on this story.
It may have worked for a little while, however, his comments will not derail the ff's and citizens that want to see some real changes in the fire dept, beginning with the leadership.
We need to come up with a way for these ff's to speak out and have the message reach the mayor's office without fear of retribution.
September 22, 2007 at 3:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Charleytowngirl...
right2work hasn't made even the slightest dent in this discussion. He can shout into the wind all he wants but one day the wind will blow his crap right back into his face.
We're not trying to do anything more than save firefighters and make the CFD into the professional organization it can be once the dead wood is cleared out.
copy that leftoutofwork????
September 22, 2007 at 3:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Right2work,
No one intended for anyone's careers to be ruined. Those were done a long time before when they failed the men in their employ by not providing them with the tools and training for their safety. If you are fine with the status quo, and aren't bothered with the lives of nine men being lost to stupidity and arrogance, then so be it, but for you to attempt to stop those of us working to protect ALL firefighters, then YOU are the perpetuation of the problem.
Rusty AND Garvin have enough time in to retire...hardly ruining their lives..but...who thought about the families of the 9 when THEIR lives were changed forever...simply accepting and ENFORCING policies already set in place NATIONALLY would have prevented these deaths...if that offends you...so be it...
Stay safe..our fighting for change will protect YOU as well...God bless you.
September 22, 2007 at 4:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
camo (anonymous) says...
Until the citizens of the City of Charleston wake up and wisen up, get King Joe out of office along with firing Rusty then nothing will change and for that I sympathize. Too many years of the good ol' boy politics have been going on and new people with new ideas, new outlooks and new policies are the only thing that have a chance to save Charleston. It seems that Charleston is no longer a city of the people but the kingdom of King Joe, a man who cares only for his position and political gain.....as it is apparent with his lack of knowing what his own departments are doing. Sad day to come if he isn't voted out of office, or run out of office and if Rusty isn't gone too.
September 22, 2007 at 4:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Right2Work, the scales have started to fall from the eyes of many people as they look more closely at the fire and the overall city infrastructure. Trying to stir the water takes away from the issues of training, planning, and incident command.
This fiddler crab senses the tides are changing as more civilians and fire professionals around the world are becoming aware of the real issues.
September 22, 2007 at 5:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
right2work does make me smile though, kinda makes me feel like i am arguing with my kids, when they were about 5.
BTW since we are identifying the cast of characters,
Right2work: The village idiot of the P&C MB.
September 22, 2007 at 6:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
www.linkcharleston.com has the podcast interview with Jay Lowry from Firefighterhourly.com available. Great interview....check it out
September 22, 2007 at 8:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
According to a story on linkcharleston.com, FireChief magazine has a story in the Oct. 2007 issue (cover story) on Chief Thomas. Now we'll hear more from him. Should make for interesting reading. Issue is due out next week.
September 22, 2007 at 9 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
RightToWork:
Robert Deal - Shut Up!
September 22, 2007 at 9:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
RJHopp:
I KNEW I knew you as well!
September 22, 2007 at 9:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
LOL...OMG Cap, are you sure????
September 22, 2007 at 9:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
I find this right2work discussion to be very interesting and it supports my suspicion that there are a few persons on these various boards who are not just concerned citizens voicing their thoughts, but are here to disturb the normal flow of discussion. I like the label "Ringer" which has been used in amateur sports, football I think, for a professional who has been placed on the team to improve performance. Troll is an internet term and might also apply.
September 23, 2007 at 7:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
right2work, I don't understand what would make you feel that it's wrong for citizens or even 1 ff to question or speak out (via MBs or otherwise) about the way he/she feels regarding the CFDs policies/procedures after the SSS fire. From all that I know the brotherhood shares an extremely tight bond and, that being said,it would seem to me all the more reason to get to the bottom of what's been going on. I'm not familiar with the term "cause them to 37," but judging by your sentence that follows, I don't like the inference I'm getting. I hope your reference is based purely on your opinion and not a situation of which you're aware.
Your screen name leads me to believe you could be afraid to rock the boat because you, as most of us do, need/have to earn a living.
September 23, 2007 at 9:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
An article in the P&C on 9-20-07 talks about the James Island PSD looking to hire a management consultant to, among other things, talk to employees privately. Apparently this stems from an anonymous complaint by two employees about a supervisor.
Why can't the mayor hold a meeting with all the CFD FF's and listen to their concerns and/or praise about the department? He says they are allowed to speak freely.....
September 23, 2007 at 10:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Gilliard; Always thought more of you. You say you were a member of a labor organization. Well, curious as to which one. If you were a union member and nine of your brothers or sisters were killed then I would garauntee you that what ever company that you had worked for would have suspended the man in charge until an investigation was complete. If the company paid consultants and they said that pretty much every aspect of the way your company was run needed serious changes the head man would be gone. If Osha fined the company and nothing has changed he would be gone. If you so happened to be a longshoreman then because of blind allegience to the man in charge they would have every dock in the world on standby until the strike was over. They definitely wouldn't take nine brothers getting killed this easy. Come on Wendell you can't also be this ignorant. The union isn't trying to get anyone laid off jack_@$$ they are trying to change a system that has gotten nine brothers killed. I bet the labor organization that you were part of is reading this and thinking what a spineless turncoat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
September 23, 2007 at 10:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
bootlicked: apparently all but one city council member may be afraid to buck Mayor Rumplestiltzkin. He can make or break careers, I suspect.
September 23, 2007 at 10:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Remember Wendell there were Brothers of your same color also that perished that sad evening. Maybe you to need a change and it will come so help me god if you don't do the right thing and back those that need it. Rusty is already retired and rehired what will he lose? Oh yeah his power. Riley is a millionaire what will he lose? Oh yeah his power. Well Wendell this is the same powers that be that resulted in the outdated, unsafe, and deadly practices that resulted in the death of nine. DO YOU REMEMBER ?????????????????????
September 23, 2007 at 11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
All of the Chiefs except for a few have the time to retire. Why would it be such a bad thing to send them into permanent retirement earlier than they would like? Oh yeah they would find it hard to replace so many yes men.
September 23, 2007 at 11:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
THISMUSTSTOP (anonymous) says...
Right2work,
I really wanted to have my own classification, not be looped in with others. I'll help you out since you seem to be short on time.
THISMUSTSTOP: Alternating between PISSED THE F@#% OFF and very very sad. Poor guy, I wish he'd never seen 9 guys killed b/c of years and years of ignorance.
September 23, 2007 at 12:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hamy91 (anonymous) says...
The Fire Chief is ultimately responsible for what happens within his department. The incident commander is responsible for what happens, both good and bad, on an emergency scene. These are the fundamental concepts of the incident command system. Those individuals are ultimately responsible for the deaths of nine firefighters and there WILL be accountability for it.
Mayor Riley is deeply misled if he believes that the actions of few on the fire ground are not the responsibility of the Fire Chiefs'. Had a proper incident command structure been utilized there would have been no one fighting the fire without the proper personal protective equipment.
Pride is the biggest killer of firefighters across the nation. No one wants to be told that they are not performing to the best of their ability and no one wants to be told that they are wrong in our profession. Firefighters will fight diligently to protect their image and their tradition. In this incident, there was a breakdown in the chain of command and a lack of foresight on behalf of the incident commander. The signs of rapid fire progression were ignored. A building size up as well as an initial briefing to incoming fire units was not performed. "Come to the rear" is not an initial briefing. The initial smoke condition on arrival suggested a very hot free burning fire (thick black smoke). The initial handline that was utilized to fight the fire was a booster hose that is about twice the size of the hose many of you use to wash your car. This is an indisputable fact because there are pictures that show an engine company in the front of the building very early into the incident with its booster hose deployed. BIG FIRE MEANS BRING BIG WATER!!! The building contained a heavy fire loading (furniture) that should have been taken into consideration. Smoke conditions within the structure throughout the incident suggested rapid fire spread and that an above head fire was burning. All of this was observed by the Asst. Chief and all of the warning signs were ignored or improperly interrupted.
This is just the beginning of the official investigative findings. I think that the residents of the city of Charleston are going to be very shocked and disturbed at how their fire department has willfully disregarded state and federal regulations. The actions of the fire department management personnel are grossly negligent and it is time for accountability. Stop snubbing your nose to subject matter experts that have study fire and the fire service for DECADES! The city of Charleston Fire Department are not know-it-alls and acting so in the wake of the worst fire department loss in the history of the southeast is appalling. This incident could have been avoided and therein lays the true tragedy!
September 23, 2007 at 3:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Excellent comments, Hamy91.
September 23, 2007 at 4:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jtcollier (anonymous) says...
WOW! These guys are amazing! This is not politics; this is the loss of life so significant, that they need to both move on! You can not lose life like this, stand by your actions, then have your actions be cited as failures by OSHA, and honor the lives of the fallen and maintain the trust of the public. This is not politics, this is about human lives! These 2 guys, chief and mayor, are stuck in the 50's and need to RESIGN IMMEDIATELY. Do the right thing and leave! Your not saving face, your not saving a lawsuit, your inept and need to move to the south 40! God bless the fallen and their families and all that this tragedy has touched!
September 23, 2007 at 5:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jtcollier (anonymous) says...
Sir, this is not about a guy having time to mourn. this is about a guy that was doing the wrong thing from the get go! There is no implementation that is needed for this guy (chief). He should have been doing it. This is time for the chief to step down, along with the mayor for standing by ineptness, and allow someone that is willing to change to the present to come in and make the department right! From the first day of the fire service you are taught that the chief is ultimately responsible. Now you want him to hide from his responsibility like he has been? The cheif knows it, we in the fire service all know it; you take responsibility for your actions and inactions. This is not a simple problem of someone not filling a pothole or anything else. This is human life.
"Posted by MrCoffee on September 21, 2007 at 1:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)
lot of bitterness out there towards Chief Thomas from the few that I keep reading on here. If I thought it were all for the right reasons, I would sympathize more. I do sympathize to a degree, but the level that some of you take this is absurd. He hasn't even had the chance to mourn. Give him a chance to make the changes he needs to make. Keep in mind, it's only been 90 days. Put yourself in his shoes for a minute.
Or just enjoy your witch hunt."
September 23, 2007 at 5:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
>>> RightToWork - Here are our cast of online characters. A little something to make everyone mad today. I wanted to be nickiegarbeils sidekick!
September 23, 2007 at 8:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
LOL...
Thank's exorcist...I would rather be YOURS!
September 23, 2007 at 8:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Exorcist, please check your PM
September 23, 2007 at 11:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
Does anyone know when we might expect to get the other reports?
September 24, 2007 at 7 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
mmeemz,
It is hard to say...MOST of the time, I HEAR it takes between 6 months to a year, and have even take a year and a half...now is the agonizing wait.
September 24, 2007 at 7:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
I'm curious to know if the Automatic Aid Response that is outlined below (ISO Protection Class Codes) as being provided to that very small portion by the Cainhoy FD station 2 b/c Nucor and BP are in the same general area?
CHARLESTON FD PC: 1/9 Terr: 080
BERKELEY COUNTY
Footnotes:
PRIMARY FIRE DEPARTMENT RESPONSE IS PROVIDED BY THE CHARLESTON FIRE DEPARTMENT STATIONS 2-3, 4-15, 5-10, 6, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 16-19, 17, 18 AND 20. RECOGNIZED AUTOMATIC AID RESPONSE IS PROVIDED TO A PORTION OF THE GRADED AREA BY THE CAINHOY FIRE DEPARTMENT STATION 2.
BCEGS: PERS 03 COML 03 1999
BCEGS: PERS 03 COML 03 2005
September 24, 2007 at 9:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
Check out Mt Pleasant's FDs. Their LEADERS have gone as far as to become accredited!
MOUNT PLEASANT CHARLESTON County
PC 2 Terr: 100
Footnotes:
PRIMARY FIRE DEPARTMENT RESPONSE IS PROVIDED BY THE MOUNT PLEASANT FIRE DEPARTMENT STATIONS 1, 2, 3, 4 AND 5. MOUNT PLEASANT IS A CFAI ACCREDITED FIRE DEPARTMENT. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION ON ACCREDITATION, VISIT THE CFAI WEBSITE AT WWW.CFAINET.ORG.
BCEGS: PERS 99 COML 99 1996
JURISDICTION HAS DECLINED TO PARTICIPATE IN THE BCEGS PROGRAM. **See MOUNT PLEASANT (CONT 1) FOR ADDITIONAL FOOTNOTES. BCEGS: PERS 04 COML 04 2001
BCEGS: PERS 04 COML 04 2006
MOUNT PLEASANT FD CHARLESTON County
PC: 2/9 Terr: 100
Footnotes:
PRIMARY FIRE DEPARTMENT RESPONSE IS PROVIDED BY THE MOUNT PLEASANT FIRE DEPARTMENT STATIONS 1, 2, 3, 4 AND 5. MOUNT PLEASANT IS A CFAI ACCREDITED FIRE DEPARTMENT. FOR FURTHER INFORMATION ON ACCREDITATION, VISIT THE CFAI WEBSITE www.CFAI.net
September 24, 2007 at 9:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
The Associated Press article on the OSHA report was picked up by various media outlets, including TV stations ranging from Lake Charles, LA to Boise, ID. CBS News posted a brief report to its Web site, and the article apparently appeared in the UK in the Guardian Unlimited.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/0...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/st...
September 25, 2007 at 11:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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