Union wants fire chief out
Mayor says Thomas is committed to making necessary changes
By Ron Menchaca , Glenn Smith
Mayor says Thomas is committed to making necessary changes
The Post and Courier
Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas talks with Police Chief Greg Mullen on Broad Street outside City Hall on Wednesday.
Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas has lost the faith of his men and must go, the head of the state firefighters union said Wednesday.
Michael Parrotta, president of the South Carolina Professional Firefighters Association, said the Charleston Fire Department never will move forward as long as Thomas remains chief. He described Thomas as a "dinosaur" who clings to tradition while the profession has evolved and become more safety-conscious.
"He should have already been suspended and relieved of duty," Parrotta said. "He needs to go."
Parrotta spent 25 years fighting fires with departments in the Myrtle Beach area. The association he oversees represents about 735 firefighters around the state, including roughly 100 firefighters in Charleston, about half of the city's firefighters. Parrotta said he could no longer hold his tongue on the issue after a televised address Tuesday in which Mayor
Joe Riley reiterated unwavering support for Thomas and other fire department leaders.
On Wednesday, Riley again voiced his unqualified support and "enormous respect" for Thomas. The mayor said Thomas is "energized and committed" to making an excellent fire department even better and that he has the complete confidence of his men in doing so. "He will continue to serve our city for as long as I am mayor and as long as he continues to do the outstanding job he has been doing," he said.
In our special section with photos, videos, interactives, donation information and every story written about the tragedy.
But others also are questioning Thomas' leadership in the wake of the June 18 furniture store fire that killed nine city firefighters. Opinions vary on whether he should remain in charge.
Roger Yow, president of the local union chapter, called Thomas a "failed department head" and said Riley's support of Thomas is "nothing more than blind allegiance."
Yow said his group, the Charleston Firefighters Association, will take a formal position on Thomas once a city-appointed panel of experts releases its comprehensive analysis of the fire department later this month. Thomas likely will face increasing pressure to resign if the panel's report is as damning as its initial findings, which faulted the department for failing to keep pace with national firefighting standards, Yow said.
"The department's major shortcomings in just about every important function ... are a direct reflection on Thomas' failed leadership. Recommendations for change have been made to Chief Thomas for years, and he has flat out ignored them. "
In the initial aftermath of the fire, Thomas was quick to defend his department's aggressive tactics and traditional firefighting methods. He told The Post and Courier that he trusted the department's time-honed techniques, regardless of what written standards might say. "We are never going to get away from that — never," he said.
Thomas did not respond Wednesday to a request for comment on the union leaders' statements.
City Councilman Henry Fishburne on Wednesday said that a leadership change might be the only way for the department to move forward, but he said he has not made up his mind about Thomas' future. "I am not quite there yet," Fishburne said. "The problem for City Council is we do not have the authority to hire and fire employees."
Riley alone has that authority under the city's strong-mayor form of government.
William Dudley Gregorie, who is challenging Riley for mayor, said that authority comes with the responsibility to recognize when change is needed. The city needs to hold someone accountable for the problems in its fire department and the culture that allowed those deficiencies to linger for so many years, he said. Gregorie said the city should sack not only Thomas but other top commanders as well.
"I think that in order for the culture of that department to be changed, changes would have to go beyond the chief level," he said. "Just how far, I am not sure."
Pete Piringer, spokesman for the review panel, said it's not the group's mission to recommend whether department leaders need to be replaced. He said the panel's report will touch on administrative and cultural issues in the department but won't outline specific personnel changes.
"There is not a recommendation in there to replace the chief. I don't interpret it to be our job to do that. But I will say it's pretty comprehensive and in-depth about the organization as a whole. It should be obvious there will be changes."
Piringer said early indications are that the department is willing to change and is making every effort to embrace all of the panel's initial recommendations. Still, he said it could take years for the department to catch up with current national practices.
City Councilman James Gallant, chairman of council's public safety committee, agrees that Thomas and the fire department are working hard to correct the deficiencies that have been identified.
Gallant said it is unfair to call for Thomas' ouster before any of the major investigations into the fatal blaze have been completed and the results are known. "Let's see what the investigation says," he said. "Every time someone does something wrong and he is the leader, we want to slam him or fire him. I just don't think that's the way you solve problems in a democratic society."
Following recent firefighters' deaths in other parts of the country, some city leaders were quick to hold fire officials accountable for mistakes. Less than two weeks after the Deutsche Bank tower near Ground Zero in New York caught fire on Aug. 18 and claimed the lives of two of the city's firefighters, Mayor Michael Bloomberg and the city's fire commissioner reassigned a deputy chief, battalion chief and captain. The reassignments were reprimands for not completing mandatory inspections that could have identified dangerous conditions inside the tower, which was damaged by the collapsing World Trade Center buildings on Sept. 11, 2001.
In Baltimore, three fire commanders lost their jobs after a fire cadet was killed in a fire training exercise on Feb. 9. Some Baltimore leaders also have called for that city's fire chief to step down.
Jay Lowry, a former Charleston firefighter and city fire inspector, has been chronicling the Charleston response to the sofa store fire in his Internet blog, Firefighter Hourly. He said the mayor needs to replace Thomas with an outside leader who can make the changes that are necessary.
"The only way for the culture to change is to remove the person responsible for the current culture," Lowry said. "It is also the only way that the fire department can truly heal."
Reach Ron Menchaca at rmenchaca@postandcourier.com or 937-5724. Reach Glenn Smith at gsmith@postandcourier.com or 937-5556.
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nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
An admission of wrongdoing by Gallant???? Sure sounded like one to me...Most of us would be happy to see RT on Administrative leave pending the investigations, THEN can his tail!
Hooray for Parotta,Yow,Fishburn,Lowry...I dub thee the Fantastic 4! Way to speak out...
As long as Riley is still Mayor, RT still has a job...guess that tells us where he stands...and before an election too! Not the brightest bulb in the box is he?
September 20, 2007 at 1 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hotrod2007 (anonymous) says...
The mayor has drawn the line in the sand, "He will continue to serve our city for as long as I am mayor and as long as he continues to do the outstanding job he has been doing." This is a perfect example of the mayor's elitist views. He doesn't care about the Charleston 9 or the 100 represented by the union.
I would hope the unions would rise up and "HONOR" there fallen brothers with protest to make our political leaders respond to the people. The Charleston FF's are some of the bravest of them all. These men are struggling to remain quiet and only able to do so for the benefit of their families. Kudos Michael Parrotta, president of the South Carolina Professional Firefighters Association. In my lifetime, it was only because of the UNIONs that anything has been done for the working people. Mr. Parrotta, take the lead, start organizing, the Charleston FF's need your support more than ever. Make the career politician flip-flop because he can't operate without the one man who was directly responsible for ensuring the FF's were prepared. If and when you do, I can assure you other UNIONs would follow.
It is truly amazing how South Carolina elitist politicians has been able to hoodwink the working poor (whites and blacks) while catering to the rich and very rich. I'm a native Charlestonian and I would like to know the logic behind building thousand of houses the citizens can't afford? I guess it for the weekend warriors / telecommuters who work remotely and make enough dollars in our community to purchase / flip those houses.
Again, the mayor has clearly stated, he backs RUSTY THOMAS (despite his incompetence), not the firefighters. Today, anyone who doesn't own a computer, as previously posted here, should be in school. Soon the investigative team will submit its report of changes (policy & procedures) already made or forthcoming. The majority of the working voters (whites) will accept his elitist views and reelect the arrogant dictator.
May god bless the firefighters and the families of the Charleston 9.
September 20, 2007 at 3:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Paul (anonymous) says...
Both Riley and Thomas should resign.
Hopefully the voters will remove Riley and then Thomas should be gone soon thereafter.
September 20, 2007 at 4:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Chief Thomas has stated numerous times in front of several fire companies that "Nothing has changed." How can this man be dedicated to upgrading the training in his department?
In my opinion he thinks "The Men" aren't bright enough to deal with these changes. This is a direct reflection of what his father thinks about the people in the department. RT Sr. thoght that column mounted dimmers would confuse the men. He had a dimmer installed on the floor to eliminate this "confusion". Never mind that all modern personal vehicles have dimmer switches for the headlights on the turn signal lever.
This is the type of thinking frontlining the safety changes being made to CFD. Apparently Joe Riley is quite happy with this type of leadership. As long as he has somebody in the position that he can control, all is well. If he is forced to oust Rusty look for him to put in another under educated yesman. Let's maintain the status quo [sarcasm].
Wake up Charleston.
September 20, 2007 at 5:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
poorboy (anonymous) says...
That's great who you gonna vote in the mayors office? Surely not this Gregorie dude?! He's a joke! Anyone that would allign themselfs with Kwadjo cannot be taken seriously. Sorry Charleston, you keep electing him sounds like your stuck with him!
September 20, 2007 at 6:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
The mayor of the city of charleston, joseph p. riley, jr. has drawn a definable line in the sand against the good citizens of the city of charleston.
It is time for the good citizens to realize this man thinks himself "God Almighty" over you and your city.
When you reelect him this November, for his last term, he and his mover and shaker friends will have no restrictions on what they do with your taxes and to you, via new city laws. Once in, you can't remove him.
All citizens need to look at whats happening, make sure you are registered to vote and "VOTE".
You have been warned.
I have been calling for his and his upper fire department management to resign, now its up to you to stop his madness in its tracks and "FIRE" him in November.
September 20, 2007 at 6:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mggoose2000 (anonymous) says...
It would seem, from all the rhetoric in these blogs, that everyone commenting has known that the CFD was being run by an incompetent commander, that the Mayor is inept and loyal to his people to a fault. That said, I'd say all of you that profess to have known this and have stood by with your mouths shut, until 9 men lost their lives, are just as guilty as the ones who's necks you cry out for.
Change, especially in humans, is completely up to the individual that needs to change. Most of us follow the same routine every day and would get upset if something or someone caused us to have to do it differently. So, RT didn't have the vision or the initiative to make the changes everyone is prescribing; you want to bring in an expert with all the qualifications you're saying RT doesn't have and put him in charge? Seems from all of your squawking, this person would be like a "Chicken in a hot skillet", dancing for all of you to keep his job.
Perfect people crying out for a perfect world! How sad we so soon forget that we are not perfect and that people make mistakes, sometimes, tragic ones. The sad part of all tragedies is that the living have to keep on living and remembering and dealing with the TRAGEDY! I believe it is a mistake to condemn this man or any one man for these men's deaths. Everyone that knew these conditions existed and did nothing, are at fault. Failure is a part of human life, something we must all deal with; Why can't we forgive and move on? Ruining a man's career is not the answer here folks.
I know; why don't we just hang him? He'd be dead and that will bring back the 9 that died that tragic day, right? It will put salve on everyones hurt and satify everyones lust for punishing the guilty party, right?
Enough is enough! Let the commision that is assessing the CFD complete their task. Wait and see what they say; let the Mayor outline his plans and then, if the CFD doesn't move into the 21st century, we can call for someone to step down and elect another Mayor that will have the vision to do what is right.
September 20, 2007 at 6:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jmw29410 (anonymous) says...
I know from experience that the City is like most big businesses and covers its butt by designating a scapegoat to take the fall. Riley's support of Rusty Thomas is an exception to this policy. Dumping Rusty will not change the facts of the tragedy. Keeping an experienced chief who is committed to making change is important. I am in no way a Joe Riley fan but I believe that dumping Rusty Thomas is NOT the way to do it. I point out that Rusty has not resigned and run to a hiding place. He's hanging in there and trying to do what's right to improve the department in spite of the crap he is catching. That says a lot about the man.
September 20, 2007 at 7:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dog (anonymous) says...
Changes need to be made.
September 20, 2007 at 7:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Did you people read my post?
Rusty opposes change!
He has stated so in front of numerous people! His battle cry is nothing's changed!
If someone dies in your command that "leader" should step up and address the problem. Don't come out and agree with him by telling everybody to stick their heads back in the sand. Change needs to be embraced. Memos are just a way to avoid prosecution in the event of an incident.
Where is the training to upgrade this department?
What equipment has been purchased or ordered to upgrade the level of protection for our citizens and employees?
What type of new bodyguard was ordered to enable our firemen to perform their hazardous duties in a way less stressful and safer for their physical well being?
Why isn't there AC on the apparattus so our firefighters aren't already overheated when they arrive at the fire?[This is standard on apparattus where more money is paid to remove it]
They can't answer these questions because A- they haven't done anything about it, or B- they don't want anybody to know.
Wake up Charleston!
September 20, 2007 at 7:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005roby (anonymous) says...
Are you kidding me? You people are so cynical to actually believe this Parrotta guy? He is not even from Charleston and we are going to actually let him dip his hands into Charleston? Thats the problem with Charleston, we let too many people have influence here and people actually listen to it. Yes, Riley needs to go...but, he is here and you have to put up with him. You voted him in AGAIN. As for Rusty...a change in the Mayors office might bring great change in the fire department with Rusty in command. Rusty is one of the most sincere persons you will have ever met. As for Gregorie...nothing more needed to say. We don't have much to chose from for the next election.
September 20, 2007 at 8:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kma71 (anonymous) says...
I agree with you jmw. Rusty could have run and hidden, but he didn't. And I wonder how many lives this dept has saved in the years under Rusty's leadership. But yes it is time for some changes. Hopefully Rusty will embrace those changes and move forward.
September 20, 2007 at 8:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
icbmman (anonymous) says...
Cid2005 and mmgoose, you echo my sentiments exactly. Changes need to be made, and if Chief Thomas is not going to make necessary changes, then let the commission finish its recommendations, which will probably include firing him. As for the mayor's office, you will not be able to vote Riley out as long as you have mediocre candidates. It's also interesting to see that Gregorie, the only other viable candidate, is aligned with Kwadjo Campbell (again, WTF?!?!). Yeah, great choice besides Riley...excuse me while I try to control my laughter.
September 20, 2007 at 8:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Kwadjo just didn't have the tact to get his without getting caught. In my opinion, if you've held an office for an extended duration then you're probably the biggest taker of cookies from the jar. Kwadjo just didn't do his homework or pay his dues.
Of course the good ole boys probably wouldn't have thrown him the ball and let him play either.
September 20, 2007 at 8:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
I'm in Charleston, in the department and Rusty has to go. He has lost the firefighters. No one believes him anymore.
September 20, 2007 at 8:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LeeWalton9 (anonymous) says...
75% of the comments here are from the same people saying the same thing they have said from the start--all negative, all without reading what is going on and all with the one objective of hating Riley. Well, you are not paying attention or being open to the facts: changes are being made and they are being made by the people who are the most capable of making them quickly and making them stick. Every organization and individual needs to improve and independent study is good. Piringer has said it best: they are making changes as reported in a competent and professional manner, which is how I describe both the CFD and its chief. MKA71 makes a good point: how many lives have been saved by the CFD? And I ask all of you--even those who have their own hatred and anger--who would you rather fight a fire at your home--Roger Yow or Rusty Thomas?
September 20, 2007 at 9:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jcaulkins (anonymous) says...
The decisions by Chief Thomas and Gavin on the fireground June 18 directly led to the death of nine experienced career fire fighters in what was by all accounts a routine structure fire. Both chiefs should be relieved of command and a separate criminal investigation begun to determine whether their actions constitute negligent homicide. This has nothing to do with their past behavior or whether they are decent people. They are directly accountable for their actions.
I am a Charleston city resident and voter.
September 20, 2007 at 9:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
burton (anonymous) says...
King Riley has issued his decree and his subjects in Charleston--city council and the voters--will fall in line and obey his decree! What you going to do? Vote him out? Yea, right! You been voting him back in office for 32 years so what message do you think that sends to the King? Kiss the ring like you been doing for the past 32 years!
Anyone that has taken any leadership classes knows that this is a classic case of a lame duck Chief and also the Peter Principle. How can the Chief effectively lead his dept when he has lost the faith and confidence of his people? You want change in the dept but you keep the person in power that is resistant to change and the creator of the current climate! Wow King Riley! Is anyone responsible or accountable for nine men dying at one time? King Riley knows that you will vote him back in no matter what so this is why he has given his full arrogrant support to the Chief.
Voters of Charleston, when are you going to look in the mirror? Mercy!
September 20, 2007 at 9:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
Harpo you say this and you don't even give him nor the department the credit for how many lives they have collectively saved. It's sad that it takes an event like this for people to react is such a way that you bring someone else down. When was he defiant? Courage takes pride and pride takes preserverance.
September 20, 2007 at 9:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
suec (anonymous) says...
I have a hard time believing a Union leader is looking out for anyone besides the Union and his hip pocket.
How do the Charleston firefighters feel about Rusty?
September 20, 2007 at 9:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
Quote LeeWalton9 "who would you rather fight a fire at your home--Roger Yow or Rusty Thomas?"
The answer is pretty clear, Mr Yow of course, he would be pulling up with 1 3/4 attack lines, not booster hoses, he would be laying a large diameter supply line to make sure he had an adequate water supply. I am sure he would be bringing in the thermal imaging camera to search for me, not leaving it on the seat of the ladder truck. Of course there would also be a proper incident command system so all firefighters were accounted for while trying to rescue me.
The list is almost endless, a good old boy using 1970's technology and methods is not going to get the job done safely. open your eyes!!!
September 20, 2007 at 9:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Kytten104 (anonymous) says...
Ok, you know what, every time some tragedy happens in any place, we look for someone to blame. Here's a great idea, why don't we wait to see what the results of the investigation are, and if Rusty is to be blamed, then let's let the CFD make the decision. For once let's let the people who actually risk their lives doing this courageous job chose whether or not they think that this is the right person to lead them. This way, by pleasing the majority, not only will you raise morale but it will improve the faith in city's decisions.
September 20, 2007 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nitelite (anonymous) says...
icbmman you need to quit with your misleading facts...you and poorboy...There is no aligning with Gregorie and Campbell, you read a post and courier article that was full of riley spin and ran with it.. did you do any homework after the fact? Have you seen anymore from the post and courier since then on the subject? did you notice the quotes from riley's campaign mangager in the article? Apparently not, because if you had you would have saw it for what it is worth. now if you wanna talk about factual associations, wasn't it riley who allowed dan molony to bilk the city out of over HALF A MILLION DOLLARS?!?! and that's all that they came public with, it's probably more than that. Don Cameron another Riley staffer, has already been caught with the misuse of city funds as it relates to peersonal expense charges on a city account. Now with the mayor being in position for 32 years, just how much other improprieties might have taken place under his leadership?
summary..... Joemustgo
http://Youtube.com/watch?v=umfO8upIIBo
September 20, 2007 at 9:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CFDGOODOLDBOY (anonymous) says...
Yea! The good old boy system lives! Riley is god! Rusty rules! Nothing has changed!
Words cover up the truth, action shows us. Nothing will change as long as these clowns are allowed to continue in their positions.
They know that the system is on their side. WHO WILL COME OUT ON TOP? Well the way it is playing out it will be the good old boys!
September 20, 2007 at 10:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
chrissybaggett (anonymous) says...
Hello fellow readers; I am looking in from the outside and wondering why it is that the "good ol boy system" is still in play here! Men died and at the very least those two should be on administative leave! After listening to the communication tapes I was surprised that noone was fired! I realize that their was mass confusion, but I am unsure why. Those men that went to that fire call, were all trained to handle the situation in a calm and organized manor. Why did they not? They were responsible for all of those deaths! It was not simply an unfortunate accident that I have read and heard a blue million times. Where is the accountability here?
September 20, 2007 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
In my opinion and others with Rusty it's all about control. He has stooges who's job it is to follow and see if there's any dirt to report back to the top. Never mind what thier getting paid to do. If Rusty had spent more time in his office researching new procedures and doing actual management tasks things would have come out a lot different. Instead he thinks crawling under the apparattus looking for dirt is his job[this goes back to his father who was a mechanic and didn't want to get dirty when he had to crawl under apparattus].
The first chief he made as department head was his brother. There were lots of guys with more experience and abilities who should have been promoted ahead of Tommy.
He has no faith in the people under him. The first thing he does at a fire scene is take over. A lot of times he isn't even at the scene.
To understand the position of unions in the state of SC you have to realize that this a right to work state. This effectively removes any collective bargaining from the employees in the union. So basically Roger represents about half the members of the department and is a go between to speak out for people who fear Rusty's retribution. This retribution has in the past taken the form of demotions[he'll drill you til you make a mistake and claim he's protecting the men], transfer to a less desirable station, assign troublesome members to crews to make your job harder, or special assignments[pick up trash, cut grass at highschool, even clean up the market on weekends so the city doesn't have to pay the people who's job it actually is].
In person he can be quite charming. If you were to meet him in a social setting it's very easy to see why people consider him a nice guy.
With proper training and background he would have made a great politician. Department Chief is a political job. However the only credentials he has are OJT[on the job training] and High school diploma.
September 20, 2007 at 10:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Lee Walton,
You know...I would rather have Roger Yow leading the troops to fight the fire...at least he KNOWS what the national standards are and would follow them! HE would ALSO ensure his men had the safety equipment they needed AND the all important REHAB for them to maintain their health at a heavy scene...
Funny the LeeWalton on THIS board doesn't reflect the same attitude as the LeeWalton on the CharlestonWatch site...guess the names are coincidence...
Even staunch supporters of Riley in the past are seething...People need to wake up and smell the road kill.
September 20, 2007 at 10:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
jmw29410: Thomas is an "experienced chief who is committed to making change"??? I don't think so. Look at previous posts which indicate what little training this "experienced chief" has had. Yes, I know, you will say, "Well gee, he has been a ff all his life." The problem is he hasn't studied new procedures that dictate changes in the fire ground. You just can't continue to "run the horses" to the fire.
citadel2005roby: "He (Riley) is here and you have to put up with him." He may get re-elected, but citizens can petition for a city council run government which will take away the king's power.
icbmman: The problem is, the panel only MAKES recommendations. They (1) do not enforce them or (2) say specifically who should fill positions (such as an "outsider"). I would guess the panel thought that the chief and mayor are intelligent enough to understand their recommendations. Apparently not. The two positions they "recommended" were filled from within and by individuals who also were not properly trained.
LeeWalton9 and mggoose2000: read the posts from the ffs---changes are NOT being made. Even the panel admits it will take a VERY long time for these changes to be made, but the beginning is to start making changes.
To all of the above: the fact that Charleston did not lose a ff in a LODD since 1965 is a very big miracle and not due to the CFD's proficiency in ff techniques.
September 20, 2007 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Kytten...look closely...there are several CFD firefighters in this forum telling you what they think...then read the other stories and they tell you there as well...they want RT gone..
And for those that say no one complained before the fire...not true...it fell on deaf ears, both in the City government AND the citizens of Charleston..Now there are 9 dead men and there is no way to ignore the failures.
September 20, 2007 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Boosterhose,
I'm sorry did you say CFF PICK UP TRASH? MOW GRASS at the High School? Please tell us more!
September 20, 2007 at 10:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Kytten104 (anonymous) says...
I'm saying you should keep him NICKIEGARBEIL- what i'm saying is as outsiders, we may not really know what's going on the department, everything's heresay until the investigation is complete. That's not to say that Rusty didn't make mistakes, but I think it should be up to the Firefighters, and if they want him gone, then so be it.
September 20, 2007 at 10:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Kytten104 (anonymous) says...
correction: I'm NOT saying you should keep him. sorry
September 20, 2007 at 10:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Fire_Inspector (anonymous) says...
"Why isn't there AC on the apparattus so our firefighters aren't already overheated when they arrive at the fire?[This is standard on apparattus where more money is paid to remove it]"
1) Given how few runs the CFD makes and the limited distances they have to travel this is BS! Yeah it would be nice and it is stupid to DELETE it, but hyperbole here isn't helpful. I know VFDs that make more runs annually...
2) That said, I suspect the reason the CFD hasn't bought NEW appartatus with AC is that the men on companies without it would all cry like toddlers who didn't get the same toy as the other kids.
3) And that said, to heck with the whiners (union and Rusty Sr.). buy all new apparatus with AC and Doors. Retrofit doors on ALL apparatus (old and new) as required. And retrofit AC on all apparatus scheduled to be on FIRST LINE service for more than 5 years. Suck it up (both the cost whiners and guys stuck with older trucks).
4) Joe will keep Rusty for the same reason he kept greenberg. As soon as he fires him the question then becomes "why did it take you so long?" as opposed to how can you be so loyal??? Personally, I think Joe is a GENIUS for turning the debate into one on his loyalty, instead of his and Rustys incompetence...
5) As for the union wanting Rusty gone, what else is new?
WHat are they going to DO about it? Strike (yeah that would get the locals on their side)? I personally suggest "working to the rule" which would involve among other things STOP falsifying training reports. Put in for differential if you are working at a higher rank. The national office of their union should have some people that coudl give them good advice here...
6) Also, if the union REALLY cared, it get someone from the national headquarters that is ON the NFPA committees that are of concern (I'd bet there is a union rep on there) to come down and look at the issues. WRITE a report.
7) I have a LOT of respect for the team of outside chiefs looking at the whole FD. BUT, they ultimately answer to Joe. And if they slam Joe too hard it might be a tad difficult for them to get that next "awarded by the mayor" job at $100 an hour...
September 20, 2007 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Mggoose2000: Just curious...would you feel different if this tragedy had occurred in your husband's department?
LeeWalton9: Are you the same Lee Walton that writes for Charlestonwatch.com? If so, your comments in this form stand in stark contrast to the articles written in Charleston Watch.
Citadel2005: Arrogant would be a good word to describe Rusty's attitude immediately after the fire. I say this because of the comments he made about having his own incident command system and not using prescribed national standards. I would think that someone that just lost "9 of
his best friends" would want to immediately analyze the mistakes, admit that mistakes were made and move forward on his own to try to prevent another tragedy of these proportions. I also truly feel that if Rusty had humbled himself and admitted that there had been mistakes and made the move to correct them BEFORE a panel had to point them out that it may have derailed some of then anger felt by FF's and citizens. Sadly, he did not do that.
suec: read some of comments on the other P&C stories and you will easily spot the comments by CFD FF's. Heck, click on Boosterhose's name above and read his posts. Then you will see the the Mayor is trying to convince the citizens that all is well. According to alot of fire dept. members,
all is not well.
September 20, 2007 at 10:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
intheknow (anonymous) says...
Kytten 104,
Did you miss the part of the article where the panel was not there to recommend replacing positions in the CFD? Did you miss the part where the mayor said as long as I am the mayor he's the chief? I am almost willing to bet those reports won't be out before the election.( niosh,atf, etc.)
September 20, 2007 at 10:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ewilliams6461 (anonymous) says...
We buried my father on 911 which is a retired Fire Chief from Charleston. I feel that Chief Rusty did no diffrent then my Father would ahve done in the same situation. My heart goes out to him everyday because this man has taken in alot and has also lost 8 of his fellows which is like his Family. My Dad's life was his Family and The Fire Department and I feel like Chief Rusty's is the same. I think that we should be supporting this man instead of all this being negative and ugly. My heart goes out to each Family that lost a Loved one. I think of Chief Rusty like I think of my Dad - A Role Model. I feel that at the time of this Traggic, Chief Rusty did no diffrent then any of us would'nt have done in a emergency like this. I know that if my Father was hear today he would stand behind Chief Rusty through Thick and Thin and This is what he needs SUPPORT. Not people being ugly and saying mean things or pointing the finger. You never know this could have happen to any of us. All I can say is everyone remember one thing WE ALL HAVE TO ANSWER TO ONE PERSON AND THATS THE MAN UPSTAIRS AND HE DOES NOT LIKE UGLY. Chief Rusty theres not a day that goes by that I dont say a prayer for you and I will stand beside you and My Dad is to in heaven. Anyone who reads this knows who my Dad is he is the only Charleston Fire Chief that was buried on 911, 4 years ago in Charleston.
September 20, 2007 at 10:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
Quote suec "I have a hard time believing a Union leader is looking out for anyone besides the Union and his hip pocket."
Where did you ever get an idea that this is how the IAFF is run or is all about. I have been a proud IAFF member for over 30 years. I am in another jurisdiction other than South Carolina and I can't believe what I am seeing and reading about the conditions the Charleston Firefighters have to live with. Not only do they have low wages, but they are lacking in any method to address safety issues.
The firefighters in Charleston are great men, but they have not been given the up-to-date technology and equipment, thanks to a Chief who has not kept up to date.
Let me tell you, I am not an executive member, but these brother's work tirelessly on the behalf of their brothers and sisters to better our profession!!! usually with little or no remuneration.
September 20, 2007 at 10:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
ewilliams6461: condolences on the loss of your father, a fire chief. Let me tell you about my uncle, also a former fire chief, who lives in another area, but has kept up with the Sofa Super Store fire itself and subsequent news. He is a role model to me because, after watching the news, and reading the articles, he could spot what was done incorrectly at the scene that night. My uncle was a great fire chief in his time, but he is the first person to admit that a great number of changes have been made since he retired and if he physically was able to keep up with the fire department, he would have to undergo a number of classes to get back into the world of ff which has changed so rapidly over recent years. He is a role model to me because he can admit that he, at this point in time, doesn't know everything he would need to know as a modern day ff. FFs have always had a very tenuous existence....they have literally laid down their lives on numerous occasions for people they do not know. I do not speak just about those who have rescued people from a burning building, but about every ff who answers every call. I think the Man Upstairs expects each of us to use the resources He has given us. In the case of the fire department, the person in charge should have made sure these men were properly trained, properly equipped and properly led. Again, my condolences on your loss, and my respects to your father's honor as a role model.
September 20, 2007 at 11:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Kytten,
Got ya...sorry I misunderstood...I do get information from inside on several levels..that's how I know...
September 20, 2007 at 11:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Zarclone (anonymous) says...
the local 61 union, the state union and the IAFF big union in New York need to be more in the papers with whats wrong with the training, how much money is being spent on the training, what kind of mechanics we have to work on the trucks, also these internet certificates need to GO in the Trash..its a crock of bologna..i know how rusty got to be chief..it was a done deal between guthke, thomas sr, and riley the deal is if you make my son chief , he will save the city as much money or more so it will go back into the city coffiers..just like the units on the trucks to show you where the fire is , in a building..well there is a saying when you use those imaging units and it comes from the number 1 man and it is "if you use the unit and it breaks, then you pay for it"..i know i remenber when we coul NOT use a co2. or dry chemical extinguish,if we did the chiefs office would call you on the phone and eat your butt out for using it as they had to pay to get it refilled..this place will never change unit riley is voted out, rusty is fired and garvin is demoted or fired...
September 20, 2007 at 11:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
Charleytowngirl: I couldn't agree with you more. A good leader would admit his mistakes and drive on. I still believe he is a great leader and can learn from this awful incident. Everyone is human and makes mistakes, some bigger ones than others. I dissagree with people who are putting the blame on RT. I was not at the scene of the fire that night but I am sure is was chaotic. I seriously doubt that RT made every call during that fire.
September 20, 2007 at 11:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bcreek (anonymous) says...
In the wake of this terrible tragedy, many emotions come out. To the families and loved ones of our fallen heroes, we all wish this had never happened and will never forget them.
From the beginning, calls for Rusty's resignation were sure to come. This seems to happen any time there is a tragedy, we look to make the person in charge to be responsible for something they did or did not do. Let the investigations be completed before we make such judgment.
I do know Rusty Thomas and have known him since we were boys. The facts of his character are this, you will never find a more honest, caring, hardworking, and upstanding member of our community. That goes for his whole family. To see comments posted about his father who has been retired for many years are troubling.
The Charleston Fire Department has an ISO Class One designation. That designation is not given to many departments in the US. They must be doing alot of things right.
September 20, 2007 at 11:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
huntress87 (anonymous) says...
WHAT ABOUT A NO CONFIDENCE VOTE?
September 20, 2007 at 11:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
bcreek,
As discussed in MANY other forums...the ISO class 1 rating has NOTHING to do with the capabilities and practices of ANY fire department. It is an insurance rating to show the city has enough hydrants and enough fire apparatus within a specified distance..it is a misleading security, and needs to be taken in context...I would be glad to explain it to you more, if you are interested.
September 20, 2007 at 12:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Citadel2005: Exactly, but Rusty has not admitted publicly that mistakes were made. He could have diffused this situation if he had done so, in my opinion.
And I am in total agreement that Rusty did not make every call. Personally I think Garvin should be the first one put on admin. leave, but at the same time, Rusty is the LEADER of the department, responsible for ensuring that those below him are property educated and trained. Rusty should be on admin leave as well. Education, training and lack or nationally recommended standards of safety, equipment, IC and PAR were all missing on that tragic call.
September 20, 2007 at 12:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
bcreek: Welcome aboard! There have been many MBs about the ISO Class One rating. To sum it up for you and others new to this board, ISO is an organization which sends reports to insurance companies. They rate fire departments based on various elements--the number of fire hydrants, the number of vehicles, the number of ffs. They are more concerned about quantity rather than quality, which means, they might look at an internet training certificate as "proper training" for both the ffs and their superiors. Insurance companies have a "bet" with both individuals who live in residences and with businesses. The insurance companies take your premiums and "bet" that you are NOT going to have a fire, hurricane, etc. ISO ratings give the insurance companies an idea of how many fire fighters will respond to a given fire, how many engines and ladder trucks will respond to a given fire, etc. The insurance companies do not necessarily care about the quality of training these individuals have who (1) command the fire scene or (2) respond to the fires. Often they take the word and paperwork of the fire department. To have a panel of experts come in, and, in a few short days, realize that the training of both the ffs and chiefs was deficient to say the least also reflects on the ISO rating methods. Again, the individual who gave the CFD a number #1 rating had never given any other department a #1 rating in the history of their career HOWEVER, this individual was going into a consulting business shortly thereafter when they retired to help other areas improve their ratings.
Please do not continue to shove this ISO rating down our throats.....we know what it does and does not mean. The chief, the mayor, some council members and others obviously do not and, I understand that a representative of the ISO will be meeting with city officials in the near future.
September 20, 2007 at 12:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ThePhink (anonymous) says...
Here's an idea. Maybe the Yowster can be mayor and these other 20 chat room experts can run the department. What you think?
September 20, 2007 at 12:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WalkMan (anonymous) says...
Phink;
I doubt it would get worse.
September 20, 2007 at 12:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
ThePhink: This is a discussion board. Some may be experts and some may not be, but everyone has a right to their opinion. Nobody claimed to be an expert. If you have something intellectual to say, we all will be more than happy to give our rebuttal.
September 20, 2007 at 12:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Phink,
There are any number of fire service experts in these message boards...both posting AND non-posting...I think that is a FANTASTIC idea...for once you made a post of substance! Shall we make a list?
September 20, 2007 at 12:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Well, I see that the mayor and the chief have put their cronies to work defending this great leader. It's time to circle the wagons.
Term limits for local politicians are looking better and better every day. Time for a change Charleston. 32 years and no one better ever appeared? Sounds like the good ole boys are going strong.
I will continue to pray for the brave Charleston fire fighters who so desperately need to have renewed faith int heir leadership and I don't think that will be possible as long as the current chief remains in power.
Shame on you Charleston voters. Stand up for your heroes.
September 20, 2007 at 12:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bcreek (anonymous) says...
Point taken. I do understand the ISO rating. The point here is that this department is not stuck in the Dark Ages as some would like to think.
September 20, 2007 at 12:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hipchick (anonymous) says...
Firing Chief Rusty is not the answer; getting rid of Mayor Riley is not the answer. Because those nine men did their jobs, went into a burning building and lost their lives, other lives were saved. Don't disgrace their sacrifice with politics and finger pointing. Maybe it's the city's fault for setting the fees beyond reach. Maybe it's the store owner's fault for not spending the extra money on a sprinkler system. Maybe it's the Union's fault for not screaming loud enough for changes.My point being, until we are standing in someone's shoes, we have no idea what we may experience. Let's give Rusty the chance he well deserves and see what positive things can come from this tragedy.
September 20, 2007 at 12:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ewilliams6461 (anonymous) says...
hipchick finally someone see's this like I do. Everyone stop pointing the finger and lets support Rusty and move Foraward. Give him the chance ( this could have been any of us ). This was a awfull Tragedy and it has been a emotional and tough road for Chief Rusty. Back Off people give him a chance. My brother is a Captain for the City of North Charleston and you know he has stood beside him and the fellows at this fire dept threw all of this. What the Chief and the fellow men need is support and for all this negativness to go away.
September 20, 2007 at 12:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
bcreek,
If the evidence didn't show to the contrary, none of us would be here...we do seriously know what we are talking about and what is going on..we aren't making it up..pinky swear...
hipchick, TWO St. Andrews FF made that rescue from OUTSIDE the building...and there was still time for CFD to get the men out before flashover and collapse..training would have granted the Chief's another perspective (proven effective, I might add) of HOW to fight a fire of that magnitude..their training and their men's training and lives, rests solely on the Chief's...If the Chief had responded differently in the beginning AND since the fire and initial panel findings, we wouldn't necessarily feel the way we feel now...
I respect your opinions, just think you might benefit or understand more from reading more message boards like these where the FF's are speaking out...
Respectfully
September 20, 2007 at 1 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Maybe the mayor and the chief should listen to what the men who risk their lives protecting OUR property and lives have to say for a change. They should be listened to as individuals AND through their union!
September 20, 2007 at 1:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
tiggerlady (anonymous) says...
It's amazing to see when a tragedy such as this we immediately try to find somebody to blame. This is what this society has come too. I have worked very closely with Rusty Thomas for several years and I can assure you if he could switch places with the Charleston 9 he would. Rusty has done a fine job with what he was dealt with. We aren't standing in his shoes and making those sacifices as he does. Give him a chance to make the changes and see what the final report says.......but for now, move forward to make change and away from the negatively that our society so graciously feeds off of.....
September 20, 2007 at 1:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
Quote Citadel2005 "I seriously doubt that RT made every call during that fire."
You hit the nail on the head, as the Incident Commander, RT should have made every call.
As the Incident Commander(as set out in their own SOG's) he was the top strategist. Of course he can not make every decision alone, that why there is information flowing to him and from him if the IC system works as it should. If you are not a firefighter you may not know the tems and workings of theis system, but factors such as span of control, chain of command, sector officers were not implemented here. There were obvious problems with communications and accountability, especially with off duty firefighters and neighbouring departments freelancing.
So you are right, RT did not make every call, but as INCIDENT COMMANDER he should have!! through a properly run Incident Command System, which seems to run pretty well everywhere else in North America!
September 20, 2007 at 1:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nitelite (anonymous) says...
hipchick,
I understand where you are coming from, Nine men died doing their job. But we can't ignore the factors that contributed to them dying, that if they were done correctly, could they still be alive? What I mean by that is, there were reccomendations on the record for several years prio to the fire. The mayor and the chief chose not to utilize these reccomendations. Some where posed by the union, and some may have been suggested by rusty to the mayor. But the fault here that is overwhelming is that our men were in that building because they operated in a organiztional climate that did not have their best interest first, which is their lives and safety. Why do I say this, because they wouldn't have been so concerned with fighting that fire from the interior of the building, to save property. Anyone who has been to the SSS prior to knows it wouldn't have taken them that long to realize that noone else was in that dwelling. Garvin must have, because he was in at one point and out the rest. So their must have been either some sort of PRESSURE, or an ORDER to fight that fire from inside. As we have learned in its aftermath, Rusty's additude is get in there and fight that fire. Now we know that it was reccomended to out department prior to this fire, to follow new osha and international guidelines as to safety, but Rusty's position was to not adopt those standards but fight fires aggressively, even if it meant compromising the safety of his men. His own statements following the fire verify this. I don't wish Rusty any ill-will but men didn't die because of a lack of sprinklers or hose size. They should have not been in the situation the were in in the first place.
There were worst fires in the history of our city, where not a live was lost.
We are hearing about the inadequacies as to our department in terms of equipment, but soon to the question of leadership.
September 20, 2007 at 1:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Good point, Bick
September 20, 2007 at 1:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
Tiggerlady, unfortunately your friend Rusty, set off almost every firefighter in North America and perhaps the world when he stood up and said this is the way we do things in Charleston and we won't be changing anything.
It would have been much better if he had said, we have a devastating tragedy here, what must we do so it never happens again.
Go back through some of the previous files and read some of the quotes!!
September 20, 2007 at 1:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
OSHA finds willful violations Breaking News.
Sounds like the fertizlizr's about to hit the ventilator.
September 20, 2007 at 1:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Amen, Bick! I don't think some people have a clue just how many firefighters are watching and listening..and they are ANGRY...Not just nationally, INTERNATIONALLY...
September 20, 2007 at 1:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
Quote bcreek "The point here is that this department is not stuck in the Dark Ages as some would like to think."
Well maybe not the dark ages, but definitely back in the 70's
All any firefighter has to do is take a look at the videos, pictures and listen to the comments of the CFD firefighters.
Maybe you don't know much about firefighting bcreek, but 2 1/2" supply lines, booster lines at structure fires, Thermal Cameras not used, no accountability, no Rit teams, the list goes on and on.
And polyester uniforms, do you remember polyester from the 70's?
So you bcreek may THINK they are not stuck in the old days but all the media information shows otherwise!!
September 20, 2007 at 1:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bethyj (anonymous) says...
There are also firemen who stand by Rusty Thomas, locally, nationally, and internationally....
September 20, 2007 at 1:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
quote bethyj "There are also firemen who stand by Rusty Thomas, locally, nationally, and internationally"
Well bethy you also are behind the times, we are "Firefighters", that is "Brother & Sister" Firefighters, times have changed!!
"Firemen", just another anachronism from the dark ages!!
September 20, 2007 at 1:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Since it isn't a contest, I agree there are probably those who do support them..my point is that experts everywhere are watching this and there is overwhelming opinion against the actions...it is what it is...
September 20, 2007 at 2 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Have you all seen the "Breaking News" which says that OSHA is going to fine both the CFD and the Store Owner for willful violations. Fines will be levied.
September 20, 2007 at 2:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ThePhink (anonymous) says...
I know this is a discussion board but from what I have witnessed is 10 or 20 posters who have nothing to say except "get rid of Riley" or "fire Rusty". I am sure there are some of those 9 that supported them both and I doubt very seriously ALL of them would be proud of the way this discussion board is more of a bash the mayor and chief chat room. This started out a discussion board but has been a chat room for many of you as of late.
What will all of you do with all the spare time after the chief and mayor are gone? Look for something else to moan and groan about?
Maybe then you guys can create a chat room "fire the mayor and chief" on AOL still have something to do.
September 20, 2007 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
quote trinitytim " Have you all seen the "Breaking News" which says that OSHA is going to fine both the CFD and the Store Owner for willful violations. Fines will be levied."
Haven't found it yet, but it is a good thing problems have been identified.
It is only too bad that instead of fines going into Government coffers, that the equivalent money be spent on equipment and training for the CFD firefighters!
September 20, 2007 at 2:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Link to the story
http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/s...
September 20, 2007 at 2:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
This just all sounds like a big witch hunt. Accept the faults move on and learn from the consequences.
September 20, 2007 at 2:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Move on with a new chief. No matter what this chief does or tries to do, he has lost the confidence of most of his department and that can not be recovered. For the good of the department, this chief should resign.
September 20, 2007 at 2:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jscampb (anonymous) says...
ThePhink-That is the most astute posting of all........
September 20, 2007 at 2:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
Wow, what the heck, it appears that the 9 inside were not wearing full protective clothing(what extent?) and the department was fined for this action. This is serious, the chief is ultimitely responsible for this by away of Department Policies and SOG's and their enforcement.
All of you non firefighters who are supporting Mayor Joe and Rusty need to open your eyes.
Take a look at where the responsibility flowed recently in New York City, Baltimore and Winnipeg,Canada.
Unfortunately this Good Old Boy mentality and culture can not continue, an example must be made to educate and make aware the seriousness of these events to all Fire Department administrators.
September 20, 2007 at 2:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
My comments regarding Rusty and Riley are not aimed at them PERSONALLY...It is a professional viewpoint that failures occurred and lives were lost...If that is somehow a witch hunt, then someone has a serious misconception of what witch hunts really are...we aren't angry because of nothing, we are angry that standards were ignored and lives lost...9 good men...
Respectfully
September 20, 2007 at 2:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
kma71 (anonymous) says...
Just curious, how many of you firefighters have talked to anyone about your concerns? If you know the chief was in the wrong, don't you owe it to the "Charleston 9" to speak up? I'm not a firefighter, so I was just wondering.
September 20, 2007 at 3:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
I understand. This is my point of view. Standards leave a huge gap in accountability. I am not out pointing fingers, I don't agree or disagree with anyone on this page. We still have a job to do, we still have to be respectful with those in command, and we certainly grieve those that were lost. We signed up for the job knowing that we would be under a chief, if you have a problem with that you should find anoher job. If you were or are a FF or in any type of public service industry or any industry at that...you should understand that. You choose to follow or not...if not, move out of the way for those of us who do.
September 20, 2007 at 3:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Citadel,
I understand your viewpoint..but let me put it like this...just because you signed up for a job knowing you would be under a Chief doesn't mean you signed away your rights to the safest work environment POSSIBLE..right? I am ex Navy...I signed the contract like millions of others, but I still expected my commanders to provide the safest possible environment...Now, I am a citizen and three of my family members are firefighters and law enforcement here locally...I want them...AND YOU protected to the best standards possible. When someone fails that expectation, they need to go...the most serious violations here are the "WILLFUL" disregard for safety procedures...willful is knowingly doing something that could or did result in a poor outcome...it is a matter of professional ethics...he was trusted to do a job, he didn't fulfill that expectation...it's time to relieve him of those duties and find someone who can...
Honestly I respect your views, but I have to respectfully disagree...It's ok though, we are all adults here... :)
September 20, 2007 at 3:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
riddiksgirl (anonymous) says...
So the fire that claimed 9 lives is still burning. I'm so glad it was not my house that caught on fire, that caused 9 firefighters to lose their lives. This is just a tragedy. I would be hated for something beyond my control. Why is there a blame game going on? Why is Chief Thomas under scrutiny? Are people thinking he sent those men in to die? Or was he sending the men in to do their jobs? Thousands of soldiers have lost their lives in Iraq, so if we get rid of Thomas, lets get rid of Bush. If these men had rushed out alive, holding a rescued baby or a kitten, what would people think of Thomas then?
September 20, 2007 at 3:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
All I am asking is for people to show a little respect. He is still in a leadership position. He still has a job to do. Not everyone has totally given up, so don't ruin it for the rest of us. If you were in the Navy, you should understand that. I don't believe somone would "WILLFULLY" put me in a position that I might lose my life.
September 20, 2007 at 3:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
No one thinks Rusty sent these men in to die...you need to read further..most people here are saying that he was trusted to do a job, WITHIN the law(several OSHA violations found, report out now)..he willfully disregarded his duties to provide as safe an environment through training, uniforms and command control...naturally if the men had lived, the agencies investigating this tragedy would not even be here and most of us wouldn't know they had violated standards...that isn't the case, so now there is responsibility to share between the Chief and the store owner...
Nothing personal...it was his job...National standards and OSHA standards are in place for a reason, for protection of the firefighters...not to disregard them.
Respectfully
September 20, 2007 at 3:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Citadel...but he DID willfully place his men in a position that they COULD, and DID, lose their lives...think about it...he withheld training...WILLFULLY...his and theirs...they didn't know how to react in this fire when things went badly...ESPECIALLY the Chief(S)..he isn't the only one...
I would have more respect if he had come out and admitted that things might not be good and that he intended to change to prevent this from occurring again...he didn't..even now he is resisting change unless it is FORCED upon him...ask your brothers...How could OUR opinion ruin it for the rest of you if we can ensure you get an outside, highly trained fire Chief who is willing to be MUCH more progressive? That should ENHANCE your careers...
Respectfully
September 20, 2007 at 3:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
Couldn't have said it better my self riddiksgirl...Thank you.
September 20, 2007 at 4 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Citadel2005: Being a Citadel Man or Woman I would think that you have learned by now that respect is EARNED. And unfortunately, once that is compromised it is difficult to regain. Rusty has lost the confidence and respect of many of his firefighters.
September 20, 2007 at 4:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Citadel2005: are you with the CFD?
September 20, 2007 at 4:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
Your right training could be better, but it all still boils down that we have a job to do. We still have a leader that makes decsions. Whether they are good decisons or not is up to them. We should support his decisions. If you were in a position of command wouldn't you want support? He hasn't lost his job yet and if he does, then we will support a new person in command. Until then let time take it's course, it will all play out for the better in the long run.
September 20, 2007 at 4:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
Yes, and I am proud to say that I support his every decision, if someone new comes in I will support his or her views as well. Everyone is so quick to jump on the blame wagon. We should just be patient and support our current leader. You just don't give up on someone.
September 20, 2007 at 4:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SamKentov (anonymous) says...
Well, Citadel2005 and riddiksgirl, you just don\\\'t get it. Bless your hearts.
September 20, 2007 at 4:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
For now, I am sorry to say that I can no longer participate in this discussion. I just hope we can all learn from this incident and move forward. I am glad that I was able to see all of the different opinions and enjoyed very much being able to talk with you all about this very touchy subject. Thanks again!
September 20, 2007 at 4:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
I agree with Nickie 100%. When nine men die, you don't come out, as a chief and say, "We would fight this fire tomorrow the same way." That means, you lost nine men and tomorrow you would do the same again. Rusty could have said, like most other fire chiefs with a LODD, "we are going to investigate this to make certain it doesn't happen again," at one extreme to the other extreme of taking administrative leave and let some expert come in and investigate it immediately (aside from OSHA and NIOSH). THAT would have shown concern for these nine men and their families.
If Riley had said, "We are not certain what led to the deaths of these nine men, but we are going to immediately investigate this," at one extreme to giving the chief and some of the others, including Garvin, administrative leave until it was investigated at the other extreme. THAT would have shown concern for these nine men and their families. Instead, Riley said that the CFD was the #1 ISO rating, the chief had his utmost support.
When you are in the position of a fire chief in charge of 241 men under your command you ARE responsible for them. When you are in the position of mayor of the city and in charge of hiring the fire chief you ARE responsible for that chief's actions.
September 20, 2007 at 4:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Stay safe Citadel 2005 and thank you for doing what you do to protect our property and lives. Please protect your own life and don't blindly follow a decision that you think may put you in harm's way.
God Bless the Charleston 9 and all the FF's in the CFD
September 20, 2007 at 4:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Gosh hope Rusty didn't issue another gag order memo that would prevent Citadel2005 from speaking here.
September 20, 2007 at 4:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Kerry (anonymous) says...
I must say that I did not see Rusty Thomas at the scene pointing a gun at anyone and ordering them to enter a burning building...
Did I miss something?
September 20, 2007 at 4:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
As far as I can tell SamKentov you haven't even commented on the entire subject, so your comment to riddiksgirl and I mean absolutly nothing to me. Not trying to sound like a jerk or anything.
September 20, 2007 at 4:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Tim: check your pm.
Kerry: Study fire procedures, please.
September 20, 2007 at 4:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ThePhink (anonymous) says...
Citadel2005: You are right this is a discussion board. I also have a right to say what I feel at the time. If you do not want to read it you are more than welcome to move right past it. I don't believe I need your or anyone else's approval to write what I wish. You being a Citadel man (or lady) since that right was also removed from the Citadel should know I have this right. I believe it is a protected right also?
I have said all along that they should be supported until the experts turned in their findings. I believe the investigation team knows much more than many of the yahoos on this board that have personal problems with the ones in question. Some have made it clear that they did not like the chief or mayor before the fire. This leads myself and many others to believe they are using these deaths for their own agenda and that is slack. Some are genuine in they believe they are honoring the fallen 9.
I believe that you support your leaders as we do not know what they have to endure from above them. If change is recommended by the EXPERTS then you change and support the ones that fill the position. You will soon find out you can not discuss anything on this board for long if you don't agree with the other 20 experts that are on here. They only want to hear what they are saying.
September 20, 2007 at 4:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
juniemoon1957 (anonymous) says...
POSTED: 11:41 am EDT September 20, 2007
UPDATED: 2:28 pm EDT September 20, 2007
CHARLESTON, S.C. -- State officials have handed the Charleston Fire Department four citations for violating firefighter safety.
The state Occupational Safety and Health Administration cited the department for one willful violation involving firefighter safety and three serious violations for firefighters on the scene not wearing full protective gear.
OSHA's report on the June 18 fire at the Sofa Super Store was released Thursday.
The Sofa Super Store was also cited for locked or improperly working exit and fire doors.
Nine firefighters died in the blaze.
OSHA officials say the violations will result in monetary fines.
S.C. Fire Union Leader Calls For Charleston Chief's Resignation
The head of South Carolina's firefighter union has called for the Charleston fire chief's resignation in the wake of a furniture store blaze that killed nine firefighters.
Michael Parrotta, president of the South Carolina Professional Firefighters Association, said firefighters had lost faith in Chief Rusty Thomas.
The June 18 fire at the Sofa Super Store was the nation's single worst loss of firefighters since the 2001 terror attacks at the World Trade Center.
"He should have already been suspended and relieved of duty," said Parrotta, whose organization represents unionized firefighters in the state. "He needs to go."
The fire department referred an interview request for Thomas to city spokeswoman Barbara Vaughn, who didn't immediately comment.
Charleston Mayor Joseph P. Riley Jr. reiterated his support for Thomas in a story published Thursday in The (Charleston) Post and Courier.
"He will continue to serve our city for as long as I am mayor and as long as he continues to do the outstanding job he has been doing," Riley told the newspaper.
Parrotta said Thomas clings to tradition instead of adapting to more safety-conscious firefighting methods.
Other union officials also have criticized Thomas. Roger Yow, president of the Charleston Firefighters' Association, has called Thomas "a failed department head" and said the mayor's support is "nothing more than blind allegiance."
Yow has said his group will take an official position on Thomas after a city-appointed panel of experts releases its analysis of the fire later this month.
Officials have been investigating the June 18 fire but have not released a cause. They have said the blaze started in a loading dock area where employees said they took cigarette breaks.
Other agencies, including the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration, also are investigating the fire.
Copyright 2007 by The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.
September 20, 2007 at 4:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
riddiksgirl (anonymous) says...
Thanks for your blessings Sam...and I do get it. Somebody needs to be blamed.
September 20, 2007 at 4:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
ThePhink: I never said you didn't have the right to say whatever you wanted to say. I really do take your thoughts into consideration. I agree with you totally when you said "I have said all along that they should be supported until the experts turned in their findings." I just wish you would have brought the heat the first time instead of waiting this late in the game to hit your "home run"!!
September 20, 2007 at 4:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Kytten104 (anonymous) says...
intheknow,
I don't live in the city of charleston so I can't vote for the mayor to be thrown out of office, sorry. All i'm saying is that no matter what, The city employees should be given the opportunity to chose whether or not they want to keep Rusty on. In other words, who cares what Riley says, let the Firefighters decide their own fate. And the City of Charleston's fate is in their own hands on election day. If you don't want Riley, don't freakin Vote for him. He's been an egghead since day one.
September 20, 2007 at 5:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Damn you Joe!!!!!!!!! Can't even get the date right. Keep saying how osha is wrong. I love it when ya'll do this. The city didn't even issue flash hoods until several years ago. The city hasn't had a death in 42 years, but Rusty has been Chief for 15 and killed nine. Could have been a hell of a lot more firefighters killed that night thank god Shane's golf tournament was far away. Shane must have been looking down upon the firefigters. Well Rusty you did good now we have 9 more to look out for our heroes.
September 20, 2007 at 5:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
right2work (anonymous) says...
The head of a labor union calls for the ouster of a member of management, that's original. What part of bad things happen to good people don't they understand. 9 people died, 9 families have to deal with this. Why add to the carnage by attacking Thomas, Garvin, and Mayor Riley? It ain't bringing nobody back, that's for sure. Maybe these leaders should start a reverse smear campaign against the union. It won't happen though because they are real leaders not wannabe leaders in and outdated and now useless organization.
September 20, 2007 at 5:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
It's ok, Bootlicked..keep your head up...the crap is circling the drain...just have to flush harder...Take care and stay safe...
September 20, 2007 at 5:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Right2work; Ingnorant person backing someone who just had nine under their watch perish ,very original you sound like deaf and blind Cotton Eye Joe. People like you are the reason there are such things as labor unions.
September 20, 2007 at 5:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Open your eyes , shave them brows, or get you a seeing eye dog .We are just begining to rally the troops. Get ready Cotton Eye Joe!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You make El Cid look bad.
September 20, 2007 at 5:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
The union's campaign is based on facts right2work what are yours based on?
September 20, 2007 at 5:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
I will be willing to bet Citadel 2005 supports O.J until the trial is over.
September 20, 2007 at 5:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
I hold a position in the CFD. Never in the time I've been with the department have I had any training to alert me to the dangers of a truss roof. Since this incident I've done research and found that a truss roof has a 16-18 minute duration in a fire. This being the case I have to figure out what other dangers are present that me and my crew face.
We are clueless.
This comes from a lack of education that goes from the Car 1 position to the lowest Firefighter in the the department. I pray that god will send me someone that knows what he is doing and help me to make the decisions that face me in this lack of education that most other departments consider common knowledge.
The last few months I've woken up at midnight or later almost every night. The ghosts of 9 men haunt my dreams.The only consolation I have is to post on these websights and try to let you eople know about the problems that those 9 men faced and everyone who survived is currently facing. This is what I do in the early AM while most of you are secure and asleep in your beds.
If properly educated to the dangers facing us the men who died would be alive today. In 3 months there has been no training to this effect and the chief is visiting the stations saying nothing has changed. I maintain my anonymity to protect my job so I can support my family.
What will it take to convince you people?
September 20, 2007 at 6:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gamecockcougar (anonymous) says...
Is the fire chief of Charleston really named Rusty? I feel like I'm watching the Dukes of Hazzard.
September 20, 2007 at 6:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Citadel2005: It proves my point how friends of the family,baseball players, and Joe will support him until the end. Went to Citadel probably coached by Rusty and now you are a fireman.Huh? I bet your parents are glad you used that education of yours. Probably didn't finish. Did Rusty already hire Trey?
September 20, 2007 at 6:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
bcreek,
You are 100% correct regarding the CFD's ISO Class 1 rating: "They must be doing a lot of things right."
The earlier reply that you receuved saying "the ISO Class 1 rating has NOTHING to do with the capabilities and practices of ANY fire department." is an absolutely, positively, unequivocally FALSE STATEMENT.
ISO is an independent organization that serves insurance companies, fire departments, insurance regulators, and others by providing information about risk. Virtually all U.S. insurers of homes and business property use ISO's Public Protection Classification in calculating insurance premiums.
The CFD's ISO Class 1 Public Protection Classification ("PPC") represents "exemplary fire protection," meaning that Charleston's homeowners and business property owners are entitled to some of the best (lowest) insurance premiums in the Nation!
ISO states that "ALL" of the following are considered in determining an ISO PPC classification such as the CFD's Class 1 rating:
* fire alarm and communications systems, including telephone systems, telephone lines, "staffing," and "dispatching systems"
* the water supply system, including condition and maintenance of hydrants, and a careful evaluation of the amount of available water compared with the amount needed to suppress fires
* "the fire department, including "equipment," "staffing," "training," and "geographic distribution of fire companies"
Why would the union, which vows to represent firemen who are Charleston citizens, unfairly want the CFD to lose its ISO Class 1 rating?
The union wants to control Charleston City Government and elect a Mayor and City Council that is pro-union which they can influence. Therefore, their position is Mayor Riley must go.
The P&O seems just as gullible. The article should have been titled "Union wants Mayor out."
Don't be fooled. They are using the distraught but dedicated Chief Thomas during a period of challenge to get at the Mayor.
The IAFF National president has been quoted in an internal memo, which they did not intend to be leaked to the public, that "Mayor Joseph Riley and Fire Chief Rusty Thomas are not "labor friendly" in what is an "openly anti-union city". They want Mayor Riley replaced they are trying to embarrass him using the memory of the brave Charleston 9 as leverage. How revolting!
September 20, 2007 at 6:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Hopp :Why would they be so distraught? Stop by a station and tell the men who you are and look at what happens. The union wants to look out for the safety of our heroes ,you want to look out for Rusty. Go to hell!! How revolting is people like you even mentioning THE CHARLESTON NINE. Do you remember their names? That is all it takes for Rusty to hire you. Unless you played baseball for the Citadel or date his daughter or something. Oh yeah what ever happened to his daughter's boyfriend? (him and Riley would have something in common)
September 20, 2007 at 6:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
bcreek and you other defenders of Rusty and Riley,
What is OSHA's ulterior motive? None yet they made it clear that the CFD is way behind the times. You people are either blind or scared to death. My guess is you're scared because anyone with even the smallest amount of common sense can see that this chief needs to resign. So, you guys keep cricling the wagons and wait patiently for the "rest of the truth to come out.
boosterhose, some of us are trying to help you guys. We understand the truth but we may need your help eventually. God bless you my friend. Hang in there. We love you all and thanks for your dedication to duty.
September 20, 2007 at 6:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
I guess the union wanted to control our pay in the late 90's also. Another violation of federal law.Went to court and won millions. Looks like the Irish is coming out again. Poor Cotton Eye Joe. Please don't use that phrase again Joe or save it and use it on the lawyers across the Cooper they are watching your every move.
September 20, 2007 at 6:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
bootlicked: First of all I don't support Joe and I will be the first to tell you that. Get a grip. We are not that "tight." Second I have a full time job and enjoy working with the department part time. I am in school to get my MBA and yes I am using my education to it's full potential. My parents are proud...are yours? Your the one that sounds like you have no education. Grow up and open your eyes.
September 20, 2007 at 6:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
rjahopp - Be careful not to open your eyes, you might see something.
September 20, 2007 at 6:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
Secondly OJ should have been in jail a long time ago.
September 20, 2007 at 6:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Part-time on a full time paid professional Dept.? Huh? Using your education to its full potential(so sad)? Excuse my ignorance you support the one who actually lead nine men to their demise. You too make El Cid look bad. Study fire science and stop playing fireman. Then see if your educated opinions change"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
September 20, 2007 at 6:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Another 20 year old kid playing fireman and idolizing Rusty, just what the CFD needs.
September 20, 2007 at 6:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
Thats right buddy...study. Good luck.
September 20, 2007 at 6:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
lol, you got it a 20 year old, do the math buddy. Leave your ignorance at the door.
September 20, 2007 at 6:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
That's just how Chief Robby started keep it up boy it might pay off or it might not. Ask the nine how it works.Oh yeah you can't. Didn't he cause one of the fines or the osha team missed that?
September 20, 2007 at 6:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
first of all you don't know my name, leave it to beaver to screw that one up to...do your homework.
September 20, 2007 at 6:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Well the CFD needs some more college educated men. The Chief might just run you off. You might be another K.C. Walker. Did you know Rusty's momma too?
September 20, 2007 at 6:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Henry Fishburne gave a short interview tonight, during which he calls for the resignation of Chief Rusty Thomas AND Chief Garvin for their roles in the SSS tragedy...It aired on Channel 2...
He stated he felt that RT and Garvin should voluntarily step down(retire), and if they do not, that he felt they should be asked to step down by the Mayor...if the mayor chooses not to, he suggests the citizens need to come forward and voice that strongly...
THANK YOU HENRY FISHBURNE!
September 20, 2007 at 6:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Citadel2005 (anonymous) says...
I don't have time to stoop to your childish games...have a great night everyone!
September 20, 2007 at 6:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Wasn't trying to figure you out know your kind keep your head up Rusty's @$$ real far so when he gets the boot you'll get pulled right with him don't need anyone else with blind support for an under-educated tyrant like RT.
September 20, 2007 at 6:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Another one bights the dust. Where de he come from? Where did he go? Where did he come from Cotton Eye Joe?
September 20, 2007 at 6:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
Booster, boot, and all you brothers,
Hang in there. You guys are fighting the good fight and you have overwhelming support from your brothers nationwide. I'm convinced that the reason your dept looked so good for so long wasn't because of Rusty or Riley or the ISO class 1 rating. It was because of YOU and your dedication and hard work.
For those sheep out there who really don't get it, educate yourselves. You are the people who can't figure out why we break windows and tear holes in walls. You have no understanding of our jobs or how we rely on each other to do their jobs so we can ALL go home the next morning, even the chief.
The union and Roger ARE looking out for the men, someone has too, Rusty doesn't give a good sh!t about them or he would have embraced changes in safety and technology long ago.
September 20, 2007 at 6:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
I think we may have a few new ringers/trolls in our midst.
September 20, 2007 at 7:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Probably the same ole same ole with new names...
September 20, 2007 at 7:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
granny2 (anonymous) says...
I thought Garvin sent the men in and Rusty ordered them out.
September 20, 2007 at 7:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
New campaign song for the mayor joseph p. riley jr. reelection bid.
This one is for you rusty, from joe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMenB9...
September 20, 2007 at 7:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
granny2,
My understanding is Asst. Chief Garvin initially brought men into the store to check for civilians and fire inside; they reportedly found neither. He reportedly then brought more men into the store to either fight the fire on the back deck and / or the fire that had walked its way into the back of the store from inside.
It is also my understanding that, sometime later, Chief Thomas received a call from Dispatch that someone was trapped "in the back of the Store" and he sent men into the store, possibly on a search and rescue mission.
Upon learning that J.Tyrell had been rescued and shortly after the first Mayday call was received, to which none of the trapped firemen was able to reply, the store had turned into a roaring inferno, and he order a retreat from the store.
September 20, 2007 at 7:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Until the real issues are addressed with more than a handful of memos, it doesn't matter who is a nice guy or not when it comes to safety in a technically complex, dangerous profession.
Shouldn't the campaign of everyone be to make sure the firefighters, residents, and visitors of Charleston stay safe? This fiddler crab will happily raise its claw to join that one.
September 20, 2007 at 7:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
If I remember the tapes correctly, Granny, I don't believe anyone was called out formally...he ASKED if everyone was out after the flashover from what I understand... I could only listen to the tapes once, as I found them most disturbing...
September 20, 2007 at 7:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
Things just don't seem to be going well for Joe. He was on TV just a couple of days ago doing damage control on "The Report", Sullivans Island comes along and challenges his carefully orchestrated zoning variance and now he has to do another TV speech on todays gov. findings and fines. Hey Joe is tired - cut him some slack!
September 20, 2007 at 7:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
With regard to the ISO rating, regardless of its real or perceived impact, is it true that it's still being re-evaluated? Or has that been settled?
http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/j...
September 20, 2007 at 7:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
The last I heard they have not shown up, but that they are pretty upset about the way the City has flung that rating around like it has more weight than it does...It is in the process of being re-evaluated...Frankly, it is a false sense of security for a City to express that the ISO rating somehow reflects the training and capabilities and tactics of the fire department...It is obvious with today's results from OSHA that there was a serious lax in those points, and that ISO has no input on that...they are strictly an INSURANCE rating...
For others to state otherwise is tantamount, IN MY OPINION, to false advertisement..Especially considering that the entire City is NOT ISO 1...
September 20, 2007 at 7:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
CTGAL,
Re your September 20, 2007 at 12:09 p.m. post "... but Rusty has not admitted publicly that mistakes were made."
That is a question that has concerned some people.
My take is that, knowing formal investigations were inevitable and when they were actually scheduled, this became a City of Charleston issue and the Chief, like the other firemen, was not at liberty to make the suggested public statement, no matter how much he may have felt a need to say something.
Any statement suggesting the smallest mistake that may have been made would likely be misrepresented by the media, the union, and political opportunists in order to slander both the Chief and the Mayor.
This article and its attached Comments by the hordes of nattering nabobs of negativism are prima fascia evidence of that environment.
September 20, 2007 at 8:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
RJ: Immediately after the fire, Rusty certainly made numerous comments about the way this fire was handled, therefore he certainly had the opportunity to say that tragic mistakes were made. He did not do that and again it is my opinion that his comments were very arrogant. Up until several weeks after the fire he spoke up publicly time and time again. Never once did he say that changes needed to be made.
And RJ, just so you know, I'm not feeling well, I'm not going to get into another pissing contest so why don't you just back the hell off of me!
If you don't like my view on things then feel free to skip over my comments.
September 20, 2007 at 8:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
right2work (anonymous) says...
Survivors guilt is a terrible thing....All the disgruntled employees and ex-employees must really be having a hard time dealing with it, guess that's why they are so upset. So sad.
September 20, 2007 at 8:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Perhaps the best thing the citizens of charleston can do now, is starting 9:00am EST tomorrow start calling the office of the mayor.
Tell him you want the fire chief "fired".
September 20, 2007 at 8:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
good idea, but that will only punish the secretary....you will NEVER talk to the mayor. Rumplestilzkin will be busy trying to spin straw into gold!
September 20, 2007 at 8:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
RJ hopp; I guess since half of the CFD is union it is half full of nittering nabobs of negativism. Remember some of the NINE BRAVE HEROES were nittering nabobs of negativism. What does this make the leadership? What does this make you? I'll tell you what it makes you another idiot that doesn't give a damn about our fine men and women on the CFD. Even the other half of the CFD are chalked full of niterring nabobs. You are just like RT getting politics confused with the safest and fairest environment our brave men and women could have. Is OSHA,NIOSH,Consultants,and all of the other organizations nittering nabobs, because they too you will also find to be negative. Waited for reports like some suggested and some still are nittering nabobs of negativism. Politics ?
September 20, 2007 at 8:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
The local number for charleston city hall is -> 843.577.6970
Of course if you really wanted to be wicked you could call from city hall on your cell phone. In case he wants to talk to you in person.
September 20, 2007 at 8:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Excuse me nattering. Sounds like right to work is disgruntled with the outcome. So sad. You miserable piece of whale $h!t!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
September 20, 2007 at 8:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
Nick,
CFD's ISO Class 1 Public Protection Classification indicates "They must be doing a lot of things right."
Persistently misleading folks reading these missives by saying "the ISO class 1 rating has NOTHING to do with the capabilities and practices of ANY fire department." is, as previously noted, an absolutely, positively, unequivocally FALSE STATEMENT.
This FALSE STATEMENT has appeared in many other forums. Is the intent to repeat this FALSE STATEMENT often enough so it starts to sound like the truth? The reply may only be pablum from the union, which is being regurgitated, whether or not the Commenter is aware that they are being used as the union's dupe.
When the City of Charleston homeowners, including the families and friends of the Charleston 9 and the firemen and business property owners have their fire insurance rates sky rocket, they might send you and the IAFF union a thank you letter.
ISO is an independent organization that serves insurance companies, fire departments, insurance regulators, and others by providing information about risk. Virtually all U.S. insurers of homes and business property use ISO's Public Protection Classification in calculating insurance premiums.
The CFD's ISO Class 1 Public Protection Classification ("PPC") represents "exemplary fire protection," meaning that Charleston's homeowners and business property owners are entitled to some of the best (lowest) insurance premiums in the Nation!
ISO states that "ALL" of the following are considered in determining an ISO PPC classification such as the CFD's Class 1 rating:
* fire alarm and communications systems, including telephone systems, telephone lines, "staffing," and "dispatching systems"
* the water supply system, including condition and maintenance of hydrants, and a careful evaluation of the amount of available water compared with the amount needed to suppress fires
* "the fire department, including "equipment," "staffing," "training," and "geographic distribution of fire companies"
Why would the union that vows to represent firemen who are Charleston citizens unfairly want the CFD to lose its ISO Class 1 rating?
The union wants to control Charleston City Government and elect a Mayor and City Council that they can influence. Therefore, their position is Mayor Riley must go.
The P&O seems just as gullible. The article should have been titled "Union wants Mayor out."
Don't be fooled. They are using the distraught but dedicated Chief Thomas during a period of challenge to get at the Mayor.
The IAFF National president has been quoted in an internal memo, which they did not intend to be leaked to the public, that "Mayor Joseph Riley and Fire Chief Rusty Thomas are not "labor friendly" in what is an "openly anti-union city". They want Mayor Riley replaced they are trying to embarrass him using the memory of the brave Charleston 9 as leverage. How revolting!
September 20, 2007 at 8:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
right2work (anonymous) says...
Watch the temper there booty. we understand it's hard to be you, but name calling will make you no new friends.
September 20, 2007 at 8:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
Hey Boot, You need to take the advise of an old wise man that said, Never argue with an idiot, he'll bring you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Right2work, thanks for proving the above theory correct every time you post.
September 20, 2007 at 9:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
burton (anonymous) says...
Horay to Councilman Fishburne! You are obviously not one of King Riley's subjects on City Council. I called for the Chief to do the honorable thing and resign months ago! Again, if this is not the Peter Principle, I don't know what is. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see what is going on. The people on here that blindly follow leaders like King Riley and the Chief, please take the blinders off. You have firemen on here that work in the dept telling you what is going on.
Leadership 101: once a leader loses the faith and confidence of their followers, there is nothing he or she can do to get it back. It happens in the military all the time. The buck stops at the top. If the lame duck Chief stays in power, you will see the morale deteriorate further and mass transfers and resignations out of the CFD. And let's not talk about all the lawsuits that are coming!! I thought the Chief would do the honorable thing by resigning but he is just as arrogrant and bull headed as King Riley!
But you know who I really blame for all this? The voters of Charleston that have continually elected King Riley for the past 32 years! Continue to kneel and kiss his ring until you get the guts to get rid of him!
September 20, 2007 at 9:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Wouldn't care for friends like you. Defenitely would like to use these jokers as a damn it doll.Thanks FYRMNJIM you are right. Oh and right2work it's not hard to be me it's hard to be RT right now though.
September 20, 2007 at 9:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
I've been away for a few weeks and it seems as though nothing has changed, no improvements have been made and we are still trying to educate some posters.
1. It has long been said by many firefighters that CFD leadership was old-fashioned and dangerous. However it's impossible to be happy about being right when 9 men died in the SSS fire.
2. The CFD firefighters, including the men who died in that fire were woefully unprepared, under-trained, ill-equipped and were poorly led.
3. Riley is a politician who is trying to spin the story in his favor, at least until the election results are in.
4. In any other city, a leader who lost 9 men would have been fired or at least put on administrative leave until the findings were published.
We're all running in place on this MB, it just seems that the firefighters are going to have to make a stand. There's a tremendous amount of talent in CFD that's being wasted because of the current administration. There are local departments and agencies who would not hesitate to assist the city if the current leadership was not blocking the way. The CFD firemen are going to have to stand up and be willing to help themselves.
I think it was posted earlier, but it bears repeating for the ff on this list: Document, Document, Document. Names, dates, times, notes- Keep your memos. Make note of those implied rules. LOG EVERYTHING. It's in your own best interests.
September 20, 2007 at 9:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
CTGAL,
I agree the Chief made a few questionable comments immediately after the SSS fire. It's quite normal for most people caught in such tragic circumstances to be defensive.
However, as mentioned in my previous reply, this became a City of Charleston issue and the Chief, like the other firemen, was not at liberty to make the suggested public statement.
Although I may not necessarily agree with some of your Comments, I sense that you, in comparison to others, are really interested in the truthful facts, without delving into totally negative rhetoric.
I hope you are felling better.
September 20, 2007 at 9:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Great Comments, Ward and welcome back!
September 20, 2007 at 9:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
RJ,
This will be my last post to you...Understand that if you wanted to exchange views like an adult I would be more than happy to exchange thoughts and ideas...I have NEVER disrespected you, I won't now by calling you names, unlike you...
For the record, I DO NOT SPEAK FOR THE UNION...Never have represented their ideas and views, do not know them, and have no inside scoop from within their organization...My endorsement of the Union was merely for collective bargaining abilities and job security...that's it.
I will say this much...the Mayor has claimed all along that HE is helping the families cope and meet expenses by releasing funds, etc...So is the Union, but there is no effort on the Cities part to explain that the Union AND the City are both working with the families...IF you were a family member of a family member, YOU would know that the Union has worked diligently for the families. That is the last comment I will make about the Union to you.
If the CITY didn't want their ISO rating to go down the toilet, MAYBE they should have kept a closer reign on their rogue fire Chief...Enough said...No leave me alone...and shove your lawsuit in your A$$ pal...threatening a citizen won't earn YOU and your precious City Hall any brownie points..the good citizens of Charleston are quite capable of calling their own insurance agents to find out the real TRUTH about the ISO rating(I am certainly not the only person commenting about the BS ISO rating...you are focusing on people you feel are the biggest threat, and it is obvious)...they will probably also find that there most likely won't be any change in their insurance premiums until it hits 7, 8, or 9...Instill your panic on some other message board...go check out the gator page they need some road kill to rot with...This page is reserved for ADULT conversations of people exchanging their thoughts, ideas, and OPINIONS about this situation...
Do not address me again unless you can be an adult. This is a public forum for EVERYONE to speak...including me and those that share my views.I understand this OSHA report was a hell of a blow to your camp, but it is no shock to the rest of us.
Respectfully
September 20, 2007 at 9:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Burton; There has been a mass exodus for years under RT ,but they are just disgruntled employees.(haha) The turnover rate of employees has risen yearly since Rusty took over.(fact) The CFD has lost many good men that just couldn't tolerate Rusty and his practices. Men that loved to help others and didn't do it for the "fun of it" or "excitement". You know Rangers do it because it is "fun" to go to a fire and watch someone elses belongings go up in smoke. It is "exciting " to pull someone out of a mangled car. Come on you didn't know you could have so much fun and excitement being an underpaid undereducated fireman did you? This is the culture that Rusty has promoted over the years. The guys that ran all of the calls off-duty got promotions(Chief O'Donald).
September 20, 2007 at 9:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Bootlicked, check your PM please..
September 20, 2007 at 9:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
Nick,
re: "I don't believe anyone was called out formally ..."
When the Mayday came, the Chief personally paged Mike French several times and Car 11 did the same regarding Capt. Louis Mulkey.
After a few minutes, and there being no response to the pages, the Chief ordered everyone to "stay off the radio" and "everybody out of the building."
They go to Channel 2 even though C11 continues to page L. Mulkey and the Chief continues to order that "no else goes inside" on Channel 1.
September 20, 2007 at 9:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
<<<My understanding is Asst. Chief Garvin initially brought men into the store to check for civilians and fire inside; they reportedly found neither. He reportedly then brought more men into the store to either fight the fire on the back deck and / or the fire that had walked its way into the back of the store from inside.
It is my understandering, rjahopp, that "the fire that had walked its way into the back of the store from inside" was the result of Garvin opening a door. Is that not true?
September 20, 2007 at 9:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
THISMUSTSTOP (anonymous) says...
Repost from: www.firefighterhourly.com
Why is anyone upset with the owner of the SSS? He didn't kill anyone. He didn't break a basic fire fighting rule of not putting fire fighters inside while an exterior attack is in progress. (this just pushes the fire on the fellas) He didn't attack a fire in the loading dock area from the outside, only to push it into the warehouse and showroom area. (seems to me that the tactics used turned an annoying trash fire into a multiple murder)
Hell, I'd try to sue the fire department for burning down my sofa store and causing me undue heartache from 9 men being murdered in it.
What do I know, huh? I don't own a business or a law degree.
Ok... Lets say you're driving in your car with a few friends. As you slow for a dog in the road you are hit from the rear b/c you don't have working tail lights. (following so far?) You're fine, but all of your friends are trapped in the car and the Fire Department shows up to cut them out. EMS is standing by and the FD goes to work on your wrecked car. Standard practice is to place a 1 1/2" line on the ground for any possible fire while cutting open cars. A spark from the Jaws of Life causes some fuel on the ground to ignite. The fire quickly engulfs the car with your friends still trapped inside. Unfortunately the FD didn't follow the standard practice of having a 1 1/2" line on the ground. The extra time it takes to get the hose off of the truck and hooked up causes your friends to die.
Who is responsible for their deaths? You? You didn't have working tail lights and the driver behind you didn't know you were stopping.
The FD didn't follow nationally recognized standards. These standards are written with the blood of others, why are they allowed to be ignored!?
You can cite the driver for the tail lights and any injuries from the collision, but not the burns or death b/c the FD failed to provide the level of service expected of a professional fire department.
September 20, 2007 at 9:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Why didn't he page Earl? Why didn't he page Mike? Why didn't he page Brad? Mark,Melvin,Brandon,Billy........? Because they have no accountabilty that's why.
September 20, 2007 at 9:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
It's true Meemz... they told no one to go IN..I heard nothing about calling them OUT...bit of a difference...and it could have been done SOONER than flashover...like when St. A pulled their men out...Good question about the door.
September 20, 2007 at 9:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Considering the city of charleston fire departments current lack of proper leadership, the inadequate training the brave firefighters have received, the inadequate equipment they have to work with, one has to "wonder if" the city of charleston, mayor joseph p. riley, jr., "really is" a world class leader, as portrayed in the local media.
The smartest thing that the city of charleston, mayor joseph p. riley, jr. could do is to remove fire chief rusty thomas and his lieutenants from their positions.
As for the city of charleston, mayor joseph p. riley, jr. ..... "Bubba, I have met great leaders ..... some great leaders are friends of mine ..... and Bubba, you're no great leader."
September 20, 2007 at 10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldfric07 (anonymous) says...
RJAHopp;
Three weeks from today-exactly three weeks-let's see if you have the stones to come back on here and defend the mayor and chief. 21 days. Big news a coming boy'o. How will you spin it? Nevermind. I know you-you'll try. Peeps-check your pm for the ident of "Hoppy".
September 20, 2007 at 10:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Welcome back Fric!
September 20, 2007 at 10:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
mmemz,
I seem to have read something along the lines that Asst. Chief Garvin, thinking he was dealing with an exterior trash fire, opened the back door and the strength of the fire pulled it from his hands and it could not be reclosed. I believe it was also reported that the Asst. Chief indicated the fire then started walking into the store and was moving towards the front of the store. That's my best recollection.
September 20, 2007 at 10:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
Here's a portion of the article to which I referred:
As the highest ranking officer on scene, Garvin assumes command. He's a portly, ruddy-faced veteran with short-clipped hair and a gravelly voice. He throws on his protective coat and helmet, but leaves the rest of his gear behind as he marches toward the front door.
Though based at fire headquarters downtown, Garvin knows this store. He spent an hour in it just a week before picking out furniture for a new fire station on Bees Ferry Road. He had also led a team through the building a year earlier to plan how firefighters would battle a blaze there.
Firefighters call these walk-throughs 'pre-plans.' They are supposed to provide crucial information that crews need to know in the event of a fire: the building's layout, potential hazards, the location of exits and hydrants, and the amount of water needed to douse a blaze.
Garvin's plan contains little more than a sketch of the building and some contact numbers. It makes no mention of the sofa store's maze-like placement of furniture or the enormous amount of water that would be needed if this forest of combustible couches caught fire.
The plan also doesn't indicate that a potentially dangerous steel truss system supports the roof over the massive showroom.
The design creates concealed spaces where fire can grow undetected over the heads of firefighters. Intense heat can cause a steel truss to collapse within 20 minutes. In firefighting circles, they call them 'widow-makers.'
Garvin now sizes up the situation and decides to lead two men inside the building to search for fire. He wades in three times, despite federal standards that call for incident commanders to remain outside burning buildings to coordinate firefighting.
Garvin initially finds no fire, only a few puffs of smoke near the back ceiling tiles, which are suspended from the steel truss. He concludes that the showroom is safe.
The department has a thermal imaging camera available that can 'see' heat through walls and ceilings and pinpoint fire inside. But it sits unused in the cab of a fire truck outside.
From inside the building, Garvin opens a rear door to the dock area between the showroom and warehouse. The fire immediately pulls the door from his hands as it sucks in fresh oxygen like a flue opening on a chimney. He can't shut it. Flames billow inside the showroom.
September 20, 2007 at 10:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
mmeemz,
The general consensus is that if Garvin had stayed outside and monitored the scene instead of going inside as the IC commander, he would have known the size of the fire and then would have known not to open the door...Common sense, really...wouldn't you say?
September 20, 2007 at 10:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
rjahopp: What is MISLEADING is to continually talk about this #1 ISO rating as if it is some "gift of gods", unattainable by most and make it sound as if, by having it, the CFD is superior to all other fire departments. Mayor Riley doesn't even understand what the rating means when he talks about making the improvements as dictated by the panel so that the CFD will be even better than #1. OK, fella, the rating goes from 10 (the worse) to 1 (the best). Does he want to be 0? He already is a zero in many people's minds.
ISO is not as concerned about quality as they are quantity. Insurance companies just want to know that a great number of ffs will arrive at the scene, have enough equipment and water supply and put the wet stuff on the hot stuff and save the building so that the insurance companies do not have to pay much out on a claim.
We have heard from some CFD ffs much earlier who told us that "training" often consists of following a BC or AC around and "observing". All well and good IF the BC or AC has been properly trained or are qualified to "teach". Many, according to the panel of experts, have not. If the ISO rating (the CFD's #1 rating)encompassed training at a certain level, how do you explain that the panel, in two days time, found training so deficient in the CFD that all of the chiefs had to go to Maryland for, guess what, training?
September 20, 2007 at 10:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
THISMUSTSTOP (anonymous) says...
Very nice point on the training vesta.
Also keep in mind that I.S.O. Class #1 is only for downtown. On James Is. the city has the same rating as J.I.F.D., West of the Ashley they have the same rating as S.A.F.D. and on John's Island they have the same rating as St.J.F.D. On Daniel Is. they just have an awful rating.
September 20, 2007 at 10:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Ward: Welcome back!
September 20, 2007 at 10:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
Questions relative to my post above to anyone who has any information:
Why are there not any implications for the walk through pre-plan that had, essentially, none of the crucial
information that it was supposed to have contained?
If federal standard is for the incident commander to remain outside of the building and he did not, will Garvin be held accountable for that infraction?
Will anyone be held accountable for having left the thermal imaging camera in the truck?
September 20, 2007 at 10:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
THISMUSTSTOP,
Where can we find a map with these districts and ratings on them? I bet Daniel Island folks would SH!% is they knew how bad their rating is...! If the CFD has an ISO rating of 1, how can Daniel Island be so far off base??? ;) Maybe because the ISO class 1 is part of the big lie?
Harpo, easy...he was asking a question honestly...no harm no foul...He's one of the good guys!
September 20, 2007 at 10:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
The CITY of Charleston has an ISO 1 as many have pointed out, not all of Charleston County. Additionally, as Nickie has stated, the difference between a 1 and 3, for insurance premium purposes,is not that great. The lowcountry realizes the vast majority of their insurance premium from the peril of wind.
September 20, 2007 at 11:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
iammagnolia (anonymous) says...
I am ashamed of many of the comments posted here. I grew up in Charleston and think the world of most of the citizens there. These posts calling for Rusty to be unceremoniously dumped just do not ring true to me.
The fire that cheated families and communities of 9 fine men was not caused by Rusty Thomas, nor was it caused by Mayor Riley (and I am not a Riley fan).
Can we not show a little humanity and understand that Rusty is suffering a massive burden already? How much punishemnt for being in charge does any one man need...needlessly?
September 20, 2007 at 11:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
Harpo, your partly right. IF civilians had perished, the owner would be directly responsible. Once the CFD arrived they assumed an almost de facto ownership of the building. The nine men entered the building and subsequently died after the CFD took command. With the only verified trapped ocupant already out and that was verified by car 2, Rusty still had time to call for an evacuation, thus none of us would be here right now.
Barring any findings that the men found a locked door and were unable to get out, the willful violation on the owners part played no role in the deaths.
September 20, 2007 at 11:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
vesta,
You make some valid points re an ISO Class 1 Rating.
Although ISO does consider a fire department's "equipment," "staffing," "training," and "geographic distribution in order to determine a community's ability to handle homeowner and business fire losses, ISO is not a fire department certification agency.
I am aware that individual firemen and officers can earn certification but I am not aware of any State or Federal Agency that officially certifies fire departments.
Is there a FD Certification Agency?
September 20, 2007 at 11:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Meemz,
Cameras were not required...even though they have them, they don't have to use them...might come up in a civil suit, possibly? It is a nationally accepted practice and has proven effectiveness.
The national standards are also not required, although they are nationally accepted practices and again, might hold water in a civil case...they are held accountable for this infraction in the OSHA report...that is the "WILLFUL" violation of not having a proper incident command system set up...the "WILLFUL", from what I hear, could have criminal implications...
I would assume the same outcome of possible civil ramifications for a laxed pre-plan...this situation is actually a little bit larger than we have previously discussed. The men that fell that night were from stations not privy to those pre-plans...another stations jurisdiction..that information isn't shared, although there is inexpensive programming out there to enable a database of these pre-plans city wide for ALL FFs to access...They can connect the database to laptops that could be given to the Chiefs, OR passed over the air by dispatch...several options...I am hoping they will eventually have something like this, so the men from other jurisdictions could be clued in on the lay outs of buildings... I hear it is fairly inexpensive...
Respectfully
September 20, 2007 at 11:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sprky131 (anonymous) says...
Brothers and sisters of CFD. Trust me when I say the rest of the country is watching. I work in a northern state, with collective bargining and many other advantages. I can't believe the things I have read about your circumstance there. There is no excuss for the lack of training that all of you have not recieved. The facts which are coming out only further prove what all of you have been saying. The person at the top is there to LEAD, they are the one we turn to for answers, if these things can not be provided by them it is time for them to move on.
I was very disterbed when listening to the tapes, thigs which I have questioned from the begining. I'm slowly understanding now, it all comes back to a lack of training, information, and LEADERSHIP.
My best wishes are with you. I pray for all of you to get through this. Keep the good fight up, and get changes to occur.
By the way, you non-believers, my experiance with the Union has been all good, and they are fighting for us. There is nothing bad or wrong with UNION.
September 20, 2007 at 11:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
THISMUSTSTOP (anonymous) says...
Harpo,
I'm talking about them making the problem worse. If a Dr. is operating on someones heart and then fails to hook it back up properly, then the Dr. has to answer for it.
Do you put water on a grease fire? It's pretty common knowledge that you don't, wouldn't you agree? Wouldn't you expect a Captain on a Class 1 FD also be privy to this knowledge as well? I saw the result of a Charleston City Captain using water on a grease fire in a pot on a stove. I'm sure the insurance company paid for a whole new kitchen. The sad part is that he admitted it to me standing in the kitchen. This is a professional FD and we should expect professional standards just as we do from our Doctors.
What were the Chiefs trying to save by leaving FF's in the store? Like I've said before, "Not one sofa made it out." I'm not interested in the debate about saving lives b/c it's out that once the employee was rescued (by another department) there was no call for them to exit until a mayday happened. This makes me sick! This B.S. has been predicted for years people. We have sat at the kitchen table in the stations and talked about this happening. It was made clear to the Chiefs and nothing happened. Changes still wouldn't be happening if this wasn't national news.
September 20, 2007 at 11:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
you are exactly right Mmeemz. Wind is the major portion of the premium in coastal counties.
September 20, 2007 at 11:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
iammagnolia, The fire was not caused by Rusty, but the conditions that caused their deaths absolutely were.
September 20, 2007 at 11:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Welcome back Ward. Great calls.
Document everything guys. Documentation will be your friend as this thing plays out.
September 20, 2007 at 11:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Amen Sprky!
September 20, 2007 at 11:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
iammagnolia,
No disrespect intended - I don't think anyone is saying Rusty or Joe "caused" the deaths but, perhaps, contributed to them by knowingly neglecting, seemingly, basic safety standards that every fire department should have in place. I think your last paragrah of questions could be best answered by the families of the 9 FFs who gave their lives and by the CFD FFs who are still working under those same unacceptable conditions.
September 20, 2007 at 11:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
THISMUSTSTOP,
I am so sorry you guys are going through this...I am more sorry that we as citizens didn't think to look within the department, or even bother to ask...I for one am sorry I didn't, and assure you I won't be complacent again...
Water on a grease fire???? Are you serious, this really happened???
Keep your chin up...
September 20, 2007 at 11:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
THISMUSTSTOP (anonymous) says...
$1,036.11 per FF from OSHA.
I've paid more than that to Blockbuster for late fees over my lifetime.
September 20, 2007 at 11:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
wasn't this the same incident where the FF was hospitalized because his 100% polyester uniform melted to his skin??
September 20, 2007 at 11:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sprky131 (anonymous) says...
Wow, its much worse then I thought down there. You really do need a new training program and Officer...
September 20, 2007 at 11:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
east3 (anonymous) says...
The SC OSHA report is out and the city has been cited for three serious violations and one willful violation - the lack of a proper command system. This coroborates many of the criticisms that have come out since the fire. What is a "willful" violation? It is defined as "conscious or wilful disregard" of the law or "plain indifference to employee safety and health." The penalty was the maximum allowed against a public employer.
It astonishes me that anyone does not think the deaths of nine firefighters require any determination of accountability and that they can simply ignore all the public facts detailing the absolute failure of this Chief to keep his department up to state or national standards after 15 years in his position. Chief Rusty should have been replaced years ago. This tragedy simply put all his failures into clear public view.
There is some truth to saying that these nine firefighters died to save others' lives. Their legacy will be to save the lives of other firefighters. Hopefully this will be true in Charleston as well. It is sickening to hear this chief and his out-of-date substandard and dangerous "system" of firefighting defended when decades of negligence have resulted in this disaster. I am a career urban district fire chief and fireground commander and I do not style myself a credentialed "expert", but I do know what I am talking about.
Thomas did not make all the calls at the fire, but he was in complete command after he arrived and he sent more firefighters in when he should have immediately brought them all out. I have detailed these arguments elsewhere. And he did make all the calls for fifteen years - he controlled all promotions, demotions, training, purchasing, policies and procedures. He said after the fire that he did not know if they met the standards and did not care what was done anywhere else.
Well, The state of SC has now concurred. By his own statement he did not know and did not care. For those who wanted to "wait for the investigations", this finding should certainly be enough grounds to fire him - disregard of the law and indifference to employee safety. This is the definition of criminal negligence.
September 20, 2007 at 11:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Isn't that amount absolutely pathetic?
September 20, 2007 at 11:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Sprky,
Please send someone from the OUTSIDE of Lil Joe World! :)
September 20, 2007 at 11:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Meemz: According to the OSHA report, the implications for failure to pre-plan are a slap on the wrist. The only thing that was mentioned was the lack of knowledge regarding the trussed roof. Both Rusty and Garvin can be held liable for not setting up a proper command post. Whether they will or not remains to be seen. Garvin, because he was the initial commander and Rusty because he came in and took control of the scene. As far as the TIC goes? That Captain paid the highest price.
From the OSHA report, this is what I'm getting:
Nowhere in their SOGs does CFD have anything on fighting a fire with a metal truss roof.
9 FF involved in the interior attack did not have on proper body guard. The report does NOT say that it was the 9 firefighters who died.
4 FF were not wearing proper SCBA. Again it does not say what these FF were doing at the time.
Finally, CFD, meaning the chief officers, should have known that although ICS is not 100 percent foolproof, it is the best procedure to keep personnel safe. This includes a stationary (and easily recognizable) command post.
The penalties assessed are insulting to the men that died but because these penalties are actually paid by taxpayers, the numbers are smaller.
September 20, 2007 at 11:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
THISMUSTSTOP (anonymous) says...
The training officer for the City thinks that two 2 1/2" hoses are equal to one 5" hose for supply. The poor guy is challenged the thought of using a pencil, so you know it would be near impossible for him to successfully use a calculator.
September 20, 2007 at 11:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Of course not taking into consideration the friction loss of two 2.5" hoses...nice...
THISMUSTSTOP...check your Private mail..
September 20, 2007 at 11:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Ward and East3: You two have heard that Mayor Rumplestiltzkin is going to fight these violations, yes?
September 20, 2007 at 11:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
East3,
Very, very well written. I agree with you 100% that the findings dictate criminal negligence.
Along those same lines, I'm curious to know to whom Chief Thomas' annual budget(requests)are submitted and if they are made public. I think it would be interesting to read what was asked for, what was granted and how the entire annual budgets for the last 15 years were appropriated.
September 20, 2007 at 11:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
mmeemz,
Directly to City Council and the Mayor...the training budget for the entire CFD is $6000...roughly $25 a man...I would think the total budget is in the City's agenda on council meetings..but there is a great guy on council that can probably help and he would welcome hearing your opinion on this situation...his name is Henry Fishburne...fishburn@bellsouth.net
September 20, 2007 at 11:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
mmeemz, The CFd budget was $15,000,000 a couple of years ago. This is for roughly 250 or so employees. The only specific we know of is the training budget as Nicki pointed out. Compare this to Dayton, Ohio's fire budget of nearly $35,000,000 for about 330 employees.
You can find all the budget info on Charlestons city web site.
September 21, 2007 at 12:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jcaulkins (anonymous) says...
east3 - thanks for your candid remarks, chief. We just want our fire fighters to be safe. It is time for RT to do the right thing.
September 21, 2007 at 12:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
Re OSHA - there are more questions than answers on this one that may have led to the City's challenge to the penalty. State and Federal OSHA Regulations are not the same.
For example:
1) What is SC OSHA's basis for the "willfull" non-compliant penalty?
1)SC Law seems to indicate that (1) the IC can enter a building prior to the full compliment of fire suppression teams arriving and (2) it seems to indicate that the IC not be in a burning building thereafter. If the Asst. Chief left the building once the fire rolled inside and more men were on the ground, that would seem to place the CFD in a compliant mode re IC?
A lawyer familiar with S.C. law must answer this and similar questions.
September 21, 2007 at 12:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
I wanted to remind everyone that in this evenings news report on Channel 2, Henry Fishburne came out and publicly stated he believes that Rusty and Garvin need to step down..he went on to say that if they don't voluntarily step down that the Mayor should remove them...he further added that if that doesn't happen that he is encouraging members of the community to come forward (letters, calls, meetings, etc) and speak out.
This man is HIGHLY approachable, and is truly concerned-at least in my opinion, from my own experience. I encourage you all to reach out to Henry...talk to him, THANK HIM, and express your concerns and opinions to him...
I know I appreciate his candor and his strength to stand out from the rest of the crowd...he has separated himself from the rubber stamps..Kudos to Henry
September 21, 2007 at 12:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
nickkie and fyrmnjim, thanks for the info regarding the budget(s). I'll definitely check it/them out.
I, too, commend Councilman Fishburne's courage and candor. I'm certain other members will be joining him sooner or later.
In the meantime, I'm very interested in what we non-Charleston County residents, who want to take a stance, can do come election day in lieu of a Charleston County vote?
September 21, 2007 at 12:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
mmeemz...send me an email..I'll fill you in!
September 21, 2007 at 12:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
I can't speak to SC OHSA vs. national OSHA, and I'm not a legal expert, but there are also National Incident Management System guidelines.
I don't know if the guidelines entered into any of the OSHA decisions, but NIMS compliance is supported by executive order at both federal and state levels:
http://www.scemd.org/Library/NIMS/int...
September 21, 2007 at 12:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Hopp: You are basing your opinion on the idea that IC was established and it was not. Just because you have an officer on the scene does not imply you have set up a command post, established an accountability system or have RIT ready. It does not mean you have gone over a pre-plan, that you've communicated with other agencies/officers on the scene, broadcast that the IC has been established, etc. There was no green light or flag in sight. No vests were visible and therefore no recognizable incident command was set up. Every time command changes it must be broadcast. Listen to the tapes. There was no IC.
September 21, 2007 at 12:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
2007 Budget - City of Charleston
PUBLIC SAFETY:
POLICE DEPARTMENT
200000 Police
Personnel 20,838,911
Fringe Benefits 6,227,044
Operating 5,018,880
Capital 90,000
Total 32,174,835
203000 Police Radio Shop
Personnel 161,868
Fringe Benefits 45,633
Operating 51,000
Capital 0
Total 258,501
204000 Bayside Manor Patrol
Personnel 80,933
Fringe Benefits 24,394
Operating 0
Capital 0
Total 105,327
205000 Housing Authority Patrol
Personnel 75,818
Fringe Benefits 18,864
Operating 700
Capital 0
Total 95,382
FIRE DEPARTMENT
210000 Fire
Personnel 10,334,944
Fringe Benefits 3,176,415
Operating 993,191
Capital 15,000
Total 14,519,550
EXPENDITURE ORDINANCE
109
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SERVICE
220000 Engineering
Personnel 383,537
Fringe Benefits 108,780
Operating 31,070
Capital 0
Total 523,387
221000 Inspections
Personnel 1,038,596
Fringe Benefits 303,327
Operating 70,445
Capital 0
Total 1,412,368
DEPARTMENT OF TRAFFIC AND TRANSPORTATION
230000 Traffic and Transportation
Personnel 839,723
Fringe Benefits 253,499
Operating 1,061,206
Capital 28,455
Total 2,182,883
Total Public Safety - General Fund 51,272,233
September 21, 2007 at 1:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
intheknow (anonymous) says...
MM,
The 9 FF's without proper gear were outside the SSS. We just rec'd a policy for truss fires. The 4 FF's w/o SCBA's were in the Aerial. Our preplans were more or less just walk throughs and to get key holder info. Our command policy was when the chief got there he was incharge.
September 21, 2007 at 1:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mmeemz (anonymous) says...
Nickie,
check your pm when you have an opportunity.
September 21, 2007 at 7:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
captainscott (anonymous) says...
rjahoop................I seem to have read something along the lines that Asst. Chief Garvin, thinking he was dealing with an exterior trash fire,.... The first few seconds of the dispatch tape should indicate trouble.....reported heavy smoke visable. The FIRST thing an IC should do is a complete walk around. This so called trash fire was a raging inferno from the start . Any IC should have known that direct flame contact, radiant heat of a "trash fire" could develop into a structure fire. Any IC should understand the necessary gallonage required(fire flow) and the use of proper size line to overcome the BTU's to extinguish the fire. THIS LACK OF UNDERSTANDING is the first that led to the deaths of 9 ff's/. Unfortunetly this was duplicated over & over. As from day one a knowledgeable writer stated fact for fact of what the outcome of these investigations would reveal. WHY????? Because some of US speaking understand what should have happened and some of US understand what shouldn't have happened and some of YOU are denying FACTS. Thats also why in this informal setting every states opinions but some of US are really experts....
September 21, 2007 at 9:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Thank you Captain Scott!
September 21, 2007 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
Capt Scott.
Re: The first few seconds of the dispatch tape should indicate trouble .... reported heavy smoke visible.
You may have a point; there is no way for me to know for sure.
I have re-reviewed the 1st several minutes of the Dispatch tape beginning at 7 PM on 6/18 and the P&O article on the original 911 emergency calls to the CPD.
The first 911 calls to the CPD seem to come from citizens that are not at the fire scene. No times are given for when those calls were received.
One caller says "I was coming down Wappoo Road and noticed an awful lot of smoke coming out of the Sofa Super Store..." Another caller reports a "big fire in the back of the warehouse : Uh, it's in the back of the Sofa Super Store. Looks like a little shed."
"Gotcha," the dispatcher responds. "I'll have somebody out there."
Listening again to the Dispatch tape, within about the first minute after Engs. 11 and 10, Ladder 5 are dispatched at apprx. 19:09 hrs., I hear a call from what seems to be a truck enroot to the store. [Actually, I heard this before, but, since the Eng. was not at the scene yet, I made no special note of it.] This transmission comes only 60 90 seconds after the men were initially dispatched; loud background sounds of sirens and diesel engines make it difficult to comprehend. It does not seem that the men were on-site within that time frame and the background noises lead me to believe it is a recording from firemen "enroot" to the SSS. They say " Heavy smoke coming up in "that direction" :" which, again leads me to believe the caller is not at the SSS.
So, the 911 call from citizens and a call from a CFD truck enroot indicate "heavy smoke," "a big fire," and/or "an awful lot of smoke."
However, at about 19:10 19:11 hrs, dispatch receives a call from someone they thank as "Chief" who says ": there is trash burning on the side of the building : right up against the wall." Since he was nearby, the Chief may have been on scene within a minute and a half or so of the initial call from dispatch (he may be a grandpa : but he doesn't seem to be slow).
I cannot be positive of the size of the fire from listening to these recordings. When the Chief arrived : he gave no indication of either heavy smoke, a big fire, or an awful lot of smoke as the citizens had, or as you indicate "a raging inferno.
Was it a big fire, a medium fire, or a small trash fire was it a small fire with a lot of smoke was it a larger fire with minimum smoke - the tapes do not indicate to me which one. I have no idea; it's impossible for me to know exactly what the Chief experienced upon arriving at the SSS.
My impression was "Asst. Chief Garvin was initially thinking he was dealing with an exterior trash fire" no indication of its size.
September 21, 2007 at 7:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Captain Scott,
I agree with you...here is something further...the plume of smoke given off by that "trash fire" was seen from I-26..my family members saw it...One is a FF, another is a retired police officer who has responded alongside FF in several blazes in his day...it was obvious when they pulled in it wasn't a trash fire...the column of smoke was unbelievable...
You are correct Capt Scott...Was there any word as to whether or not Garvin ever went to the back EXTERIOR of the building to SIZE UP what they were dealing with????
September 22, 2007 at 12:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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