Fire probe concerns rise
National union calls for federal oversight of state OSHA investigation
By Glenn Smith
National union calls for federal oversight of state OSHA investigation
A national firefighters union is calling for federal oversight of a state investigation into possible safety violations at the Charleston Sofa Super Store blaze where nine firemen died.
The International Association of Fire Fighters has grave concerns about the state Occupational Safety and Health Administration's handling of the probe, spokesman Jeff Zack said. Among other things, OSHA assigned the investigation of the nation's worst firefighting loss since the 9/11 terrorist attacks to an inspector who had never investigated a fatal fire, he said.
"How in heck can he investigate a fire in which nine guys were killed?" he asked.
The investigator also allowed one of the Charleston Fire Department's chief officers to sit in on interviews with firefighters, Zack said. He described the move as "pure intimidation."
The union has contacted the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration and requested that the agency monitor the state probe and review its findings, Zack said. He said federal officials told the union that they were "keeping an eye on the situation," and confirmed that the state's upcoming
report would cite the city fire department for safety violations.
A federal OSHA spokesperson on Thursday denied that the agency had received a request to intervene in the Charleston probe. South Carolina OSHA officials would not comment directly on the ongoing investigation.
State OSHA officials did say that the federal agency has no jurisdiction or experience investigating municipal fire departments. The agency stated that its lead investigator in the Charleston probe is fully versed in workplace safety laws and has inspected fire departments in the past.
In addition, employees providing information always have the right to a confidential interview, the agency said.
Ted Austin, Charleston's safety management director, said he sat in on 20 or so OSHA interviews with city firefighters. The fire department's training officer, Battalion Chief Ricky Shriver, attended three or four of the sessions, Austin said.
The city needed information for its internal review of the blaze and wanted to spare firefighters from having to tell their stories multiple times, Austin said. Firefighters were given the option of a private interview with OSHA, but only one requested that Shriver not be present, he said.
The OSHA investigator later contacted firefighters at their homes and gave them another chance to speak their minds, Austin said. "None of them had anything further to offer, and none requested an additional interview," he said.
Zack argued that having Shriver and a city official in the room all but guaranteed that no firefighter could speak honestly with the investigators. To request a private session would have been a red flag to Fire Chief Rusty Thomas that firefighters intended to make unflattering statements about the department and its tactics, he said.
"You can't ask a firefighter to put his career on the line like that, not when he has no protections in that fire department," Zack said. "You have to have an atmosphere that is free of intimidation and coercion."
The state OSHA investigation is said to be nearing its conclusion, and a report is expected soon. Its findings are widely anticipated in the fire service and the subject of much speculation on Internet blogs and other Web sites.
Zack said the state OSHA investigation will have no credibility in the fire service if it doesn't come back with strong condemnation of the fire department's "leadership, tactics and the standards Chief Thomas has applied." He said Thomas should be held responsible for "dereliction of duty and negligence" for the department's outmoded tactics and lax safety enforcement.
"It's not right that a guy can be so oblivious to firefighting safety standards and procedures and still be running a major fire department in a major city," Zack said.
Mayor Joe Riley defended the chief and called Zack's statement "outrageous and irresponsible."
"Chief Thomas is first-rate, and he's a great fire chief and a great leader," Riley said. "He has my full support and I am very proud of him."
Fire safety experts have pointed to numerous instances in which Charleston firefighters placed themselves in unnecessary jeopardy during the sofa store fire.
Off-duty firefighters scurried about the scene that evening, pulling firehose while wearing shorts and T-shirts. Other firefighters, with open coats, no helmets and dangling suspenders, stood mere feet from the flaming, crumbling facade. Several men wandered about the scene with no air packs while the fire emitted a thick black cloud of dangerous gases from hundreds of pieces of burning furniture.
Lax safety enforcement was among several concerns cited by an independent panel of experts hired by the city to examine the fire department and its handling of the sofa store blaze.
Among other things, the panel recommended that the department designate a specific safety officer, keep better track of personnel at fire scenes and insist that firefighters wear full protective gear and air masks while battling blazes.
Union leaders also hammered the department's tactics after the blaze, prompting Thomas to insist that "our firefighting techniques are not going to change." Thomas has since changed that position and vowed to implement whatever changes are necessary to improve his department.
Reach Glenn Smith at 937-5556 or gsmith@postandcourier.com.
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Comments
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Well mayor riley, are you going to continue to defend "YOUR" fire chief, in light of the new evidence that comes forth daily. Some might call your actions reckless at best. Whats best for the city of charleston, isn't that what you are supposed to be thinking.
The federal government "will" investigate and what they find won't be pretty. Who will you try to blame then, mayor riley.
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>>> "Mayor Joe Riley defended the chief and called Zack's statement "outrageous and irresponsible."
"Chief Thomas is first-rate, and he's a great fire chief and a great leader," Riley said. "He has my full support and I am very proud of him." <<< (see above story)
September 7, 2007 at 1:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Let's not forget that the SC government has re-interpreted some of the national standards for firefighting. Exeptions include the handling of the 2-in/2-out requirement for entering structures and respiratory protection:
http://www.llr.state.sc.us/AboutUs/Me...
F7
September 7, 2007 at 8:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
crankyyankee (anonymous) says...
Porkbreath, have you ever kissed a muslim?
September 7, 2007 at 8:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Well, there you have it. State OSHA actually allowed intimidation to be the norm. Wow!!!
The mayor still supports this loser chief. Scary. Time for the mayor and the chiefs to go.
Heck with OSHA. I think you ought to get SLED and the FBI invovled. Make a formal criminal complaint with both of those agencies IFF. Charge--voluntary manslaughter.
I urge you, the citizens of Charleston, to get involved. Dump this mayor and the Chief. You can't tell me that there is only one person in the last 32 years that can do the best job as mayor of Charleston.
Time for a Change in my opinion
September 7, 2007 at 8:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Hostler81 (anonymous) says...
These men did die from incompetence and there need to be repercussions. They should have never even gone in that fire, there were no people to save and the fire was fully involved. My husband is a firefighter here and it makes me nauseous to think about him doing the same thing. Thank God he works in a neighboring city. I am glad that the public is not idly sitting by and letting Riley/Thomas have the last say. I am also happy the National FF Union is coming forth, because they just want to protect their fellow men. The good ole boy system needs to be eliminated immediately. If Thomas is forced to resign, guess who will take his place? Another cronie JUST LIKE HIM. Hopefully Riley isn't reeelected and someone more progressive comes in to help.
September 7, 2007 at 8:20 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
One might say that Mayor Riley has grown a little Rusty over the years.
September 7, 2007 at 8:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
F7... Great line.
I just emailed Mayor Riley and chastised him for allowing management to monitor the interviews and I asked him to fire this chief thomas and then resign himself
I would recommend that all of you who feel that way, do the same. Then get to the papers and the TV stations and mount a campaign to oust the mayor
September 7, 2007 at 8:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trm2105 (anonymous) says...
FiddlerCrab,
LOL. I was wondering when it would be said.
September 7, 2007 at 8:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BillyTheKid32 (anonymous) says...
From porkbreath:
"It's time to disband this good-old-boys' club and
get South Carolina out of the bottom of every
sh_t list."
This is an easy fix. Never, I mean Never vote for anyone that has held office. We may lose some good ones, but can you name 2?
September 7, 2007 at 8:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charlestonclemsonfan (anonymous) says...
well you people are on here saying that the mayor and Chief Thomas made the firefighters do interviews with supervision maybe you forgot to read where one requested a private interview and was given and also the ivvestigator called them at home personnally (firefighters) so they had there chance and didnt say things apparently quit making a mountain out of every article changes will happen when deemed neccessary,make sure you can pay your next tax bill because money is always what holds departments back in every state you have great request but its going to be expensive
September 7, 2007 at 8:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hawneena (anonymous) says...
"You can't ask a firefighter to put his career on the line like that, not when he has no protections in that fire department," Zack said. "You have to have an atmosphere that is free of intimidation and coercion."
That is probably one of the most profound statements made concerning this whole stuation.
September 7, 2007 at 8:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
idennis (anonymous) says...
Turn up the hearing aid and
raise the bushy eyebrows Joe,
there's a Tsunami heading your way.
September 7, 2007 at 9:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Charlestonclemsonfan...
You obviously have no idea about how to conduct an unbiased investigation. You talk big but I don't see you criticizing your bosss while they sit across the table from you.
Why can't you see that everything being done in this case is designed to protect the mayor and the fire chief. You should be supporting the firefighters who actually risk their lives for people like you.
Stoop supporting these incompetent leaders. They've been in office way to long. Time for a change.
September 7, 2007 at 9:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Fire_Inspector (anonymous) says...
Well, the OSHA investigation is the least of it.
ATF DOES have experience and should have been interviewing people in private.
I know a few of the people in the "outside panel" and I respect their credibility and independence...
September 7, 2007 at 9:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MinoritySouth (anonymous) says...
From porkbreath:
"It's time to disband this good-old-boys' club and
get South Carolina out of the bottom of every
sh_t list."
I have been employed by two state agencies for 10 years now working my way through the ranks. One of the agencies is MUSC and the second I don't want to name because I need my job. My experience has been from mid-management on up that the goal that is first and foremost above any other goal is to perpetuate the "good-old-boys" and "girls" club (Women are now members too). This clandestine undercurrent of surrounding themselves with people that have similar political and social backgrounds ensures that control of the State's resources are well maintained to be distributed among members of this club by hiring friends/associates in key positions leaving non-key positions up for grabs. Performing the agency's mission is second to this activity, a silent code of conduct. I hope an end to this practice comes within my life time but rest assured it is well rooted in the fabric of all our State agencies as far as I can tell. Good luck with its demise.
September 7, 2007 at 10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Chickenliver (anonymous) says...
Whoever OSHA had for inspecting the firefighters' suits and equipment needs to be called out. Probably some drunk stupid "good ol' boy". OSHA needs to do its job and needs to hire people to do their jobs too.
September 7, 2007 at 10:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
CharlestonClemsonfan is 'said' to be Andy, the son of Chief Garvin...Hmmmm...that might explain a bit for his attitude.
The reality is that these men have complained about having to speak in front of FD brass. I also heard there was a lot of hand shaking between OSHA and the brass, so if YOU were one of those FFs wouldn't you be afraid that even if you spoke privately, they would tell the brass which one's spoke ill?
This good ole boys system reaches far and deep...
September 7, 2007 at 10:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
There is also a rumor that the OSHA investigator had never investigated a major fire before in his career...and that the last major investigation he made was a logging truck fatality in Summerville a couple of years ago..I cannot confirm this, but the source was VERY reliable...might be something for the investigative reporters to look in to???
September 7, 2007 at 10:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
The local population has been spoon fed and led by the nose for so long, by local politicians, that it becomes harder and harder for people to ferret through the B/S to find the truth, on any matter.
To make the city of charleston fire department a better, safer place you have to be able to do this critical thinking. You need to be able to pull back the curtain and see the real wizard at OZ.
I will give a simple example - How many of you have flown on a commercial airline and landed at the airport in Charleston South Carolina.
(Remember how many of you laughed when Miss South Carolina couldn't answer the simple question about why 20% of Americans couldn't find the USA on a map.)
September 7, 2007 at 10:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
charlestonclemsonfan: Back in June, immediately after the fire, a number of CFD ffs posted their concerns anonymously on these boards. They stated, at that time, that someone from admin was always in on their interviews with OSHA and that they DID feel intimidated. They also felt that if they spoke out they would be punished by either having some type of drudge duty, being shunned, looked over for promotions, etc. One ff even stated that he had incurred someone's wrath on a previous occasion and he was told to go up on a roof to fight a fire while water was being poured onto the roof from a ladder truck. This would weaken the roof and possibly cause the ff to fall through. These ff make precious little money for the job they do and they are just trying to put bread on the table. To be intimidated is not my idea of a good work environment. And to have a chief that condones such behavior is sinister at the least. To have a mayor who both condones and lauds a chief who condones such behavior is outrageous and is the fault of the people of Charleston who elect him.
Understand that the CFD ffs have had to work under this "system" for decades. They did not, immediately after the fire, nor do they now feel that this "system" is going to be changed so that they are able to work in a safe, secure environment (outside of the NORMAL hazards of fire fighting). Would you freely speak out under those conditions? Whoever you are, get down on your knees tonight and thank God these ffs still continue to answer the fire alarms, working under poor leadership, inadequate training and equipment so that you can sit back on Saturdays and cheer on your team!
September 7, 2007 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
http://www.firefighterhourly.com/fire...
Is the chief qulaified?
September 7, 2007 at 10:34 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
I repeat.
Call in the FBI and SLED. Make this a criminal investigation.
What is happening now is shameful. Resign Mr. Mayor. Fire the chief.
September 7, 2007 at 10:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
oldcap: Thanks for the link. In about the same amount of time, RBTjr has managed to do what?: Keep the CFD running with the same substandard conditions and having nine ffs die under his command. Dennis Ruben, on the other hand, has been a tremendous influence on a number of chiefs and departments and ffs and has kept up with the changes in our society (new structures, new chemicals, etc), the study of which makes fire departments a safer environment in which to work.
OK, Rusty, hitch them thar horses to them thar fire waguns and git them thar men to them thar fires. "We will never change".
September 7, 2007 at 11:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
charlestonclemsonfan mentioned that cities and taxpayers should be willing to support their fire departments. Despite not agreeing with other items in the post, I think this is a valid, general point.
In the case of Charleston, however, one might question how taxes are being spent, i.e. a frightfully expensive golf tunnel, an aging federal building, and upgraded marble and medallions for City Hall (with a rededication ceremony less than 10 days before the fire).
http://www.charleston.net/photos/gall...
Couldn't some of those dollars been spent on firefighters, especially considering the hundreds of homes selling for more than a million and all the tourist growth? And speaking of growth, has the city's spending on public safety even increased relative to its growth and annexation?
September 7, 2007 at 11:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Local (anonymous) says...
I am convinced that the only way the Mayor will remove Chief Thomas and make obvious needed changes is to draw national media attention to this story. Last week's P&C article got me so fired up that I contacted 60 Minutes, Fox, CNN and ABC News and pointed them to the P&C's story archive. I encourage you to do the same! You can contact CNN and ABC News through their websites (you have to do a lot of looking...usually under "Contact Us"). Here are the email addresses for Fox and 60 Minutes for story ideas: 60m@cbsnews.com, foxreport@foxnews.com.
To all the firefighters: we appreciate you and just want you to have the best leadership, working conditions and training possible.
September 7, 2007 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MinoritySouth (anonymous) says...
Posted by oldcap on September 7, 2007 at 10:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)
http://www.firefighterhourly.com/firefig...
Is the chief qulaified?
That is amazing. It just goes to show when facts like that go unnoticed by the local media. It really substantiates the fact that there is an organized yet clandestine effort to support the "good ole boy" system and it involves a spectrum of agencies and officials.
September 7, 2007 at 11:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hawneena (anonymous) says...
nickie, is it true that many CFF's have not even attended the Fire Academy? If that is true, then what a shame.
No matter how much experience or education a police officer has they all must go through the criminal justice academy. Should this not apply to firemen as well?
September 7, 2007 at 11:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Hawneena,
I will check on the exact numbers and get back with you on that. It is my understanding that EVERY FF has to take the beginning course (two weeks, I believe), in order to be a FF. I understand it is basic and that it is supposed to be expanded on "in house" once they are hired into their respective fire departments.
My family member went to the two week school, then had in house training...also has in house training at Ashley River, and I believe those instructors are all SC Fire Academy certified instructors. That is a different local department tho. Like I said, I will check on that and let you know shortly.
September 7, 2007 at 11:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Local, you are absolutely correct. National attention needs to be encouraged. I have also contacted several of those large media outlets...and encourage other people to do the same...the more requests they get, they may take them a little more serious.
September 7, 2007 at 11:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Not only did my police department require police academy graduation, usually at least 24 weeks, there were annual training programs required for all police officer just to maintain their certifications. Minimum anuual training was 180 hours each and every year.
I worked in MD, near DC so I don't know what the requirements are for SC.
We also require 60 college credits just to be hired and at least a Bachelor's degree for management positions.
September 7, 2007 at 11:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CFDGOODOLDBOY (anonymous) says...
Thank you Mayor Riley for finally sticking up for the south. The good old boy system is still alive and fighting in the CFD. 200 YEARS OF TRADITION UNINTERRUPTED BY PROGRESS!! And proud of it! Hang in there Chief Rusty, show them how a man with a high school education takes control, ONLY IN THE SOUTH!I know Chief's daddy is proud to have raised a good old boy like his son.Us good old boy's know books and classes don't put out no fires, only sweat, blood,and smoke make a real firefighter.Rehab... Hell we all know that is for losers. Uniforms, we love the poly stuff, A/C are for wimps. Stand proud men... Good old boys
September 7, 2007 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
local...
I have added my voice to the call for the national media to help. Great idea.
September 7, 2007 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
TrinityTim,
The CPD required a Bachelor's Degree for ALL police officers...Amazing the contrast? Promote the education of one agency and discourage it in another...Not that I think ALL FF's need a college degree, but the training is imperative.
CFGoodOldBoy,
I detected sarcasm, I hope..hard to tell in writing with a lack of emotional capacity...You aren't serious are you??
September 7, 2007 at 12:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Let's not forget that there are stories that Gov. Sanford does not like Riley...The Governor angle is VERY accessible.
September 7, 2007 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
angeleyez0818 (anonymous) says...
Wow. I will too contact 60 min, Fox, MSNBC, and CNN. If that's what it takes, that is what it takes. Maybe if enough of us do it, we can get their attention once again. I doubt if Riley and Thomas will like the press up their you know what's again..
Nickie: My husband is going through 1152 right now. It is a 6 week course that certifies them to be able to go "IN" to burning buildings. The fire academy is 8 hour days for 7 weeks that gives them more certifications. The 1152 mostly has 3-4 hour night training 2 days a week and on Saturdays or Sundays an 8 hour day of skills training. The night classes are out of the book trainings.
Tim: How would a group in a community go about starting that process? Since it seems that no matter what page is turned, or what investigations are going where, nothing is changing?
I'm tired of standing around and watching these families suffer any more. I'm especially tired that our community isn't able to heal either. While my husband's ultimate goal is to go full time and volunteer which I fully support, I want to make SURE that some a$$hole like Rusty is not his chief!
September 7, 2007 at 12:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
angeleyez0818 (anonymous) says...
CFDGoodOLBoy: Please tell me you're not serious.
September 7, 2007 at 12:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
VESTA!!! Check your email!!! (Shhhhhhhh)
September 7, 2007 at 12:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Instead of concentrating his efforts on improving fire and police protection for the city of charleston, your mayor riley and friends have spent a lot of time money and effort trying to convince people that everything in this area is part of a greater city of charleston, led by him.
People in Charleston County are paying extra money for a separate police department to patrol the Charleston International Airport located in the City of North Charleston. While in most areas the city police do the job they are getting paid for anyway.
Your little mayor has big ambitions to make all of Charleston County into one big city of charleston, like Jacksonville. Fire and police departments are the least of his worrys.
September 7, 2007 at 12:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CFDGOODOLDBOY (anonymous) says...
Of coarse It's for real!! We all know in this dept. that we are safely taken care of by those who will be in charge. Just look who the good old Chief picked for his Assistant! You think this for real, just wait and watch what happens next! Long live the system!
September 7, 2007 at 12:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
angeleyez0818 (anonymous) says...
CFDGoodOldBoy: nice to know that you are a sinister sick person who obviously has no regard for what happened to your 9 brothers and their families. You are disgusting.
September 7, 2007 at 12:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
LOL...I'll take that challenge...Let's DO watch and see...and when the dingy starts to sink, let's see which rats jump "ship" and begin to eat the heads of those they were once defending, eh?
By the way...you might want to work a little harder on the spell check feature to be found on computers of the 21st century...Your Good Old Boy IQ is showing under your skirt there pal...
September 7, 2007 at 12:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Anyone with guesses on how that will play out????
September 7, 2007 at 1:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
cfdgoodoldboy...
Your sarcasm is obvious. Hang in there. Hopefully change is coming.
angeleyez
It takes a criminal complaint to initiate a criminal investigation. I would think that the best place to start would be with the SC and Federal Prosecutor's office. It may be better to have a family member make the initial contact since they have been directly injured. If the commplaint is refused, it may necesitate an attorney for the family filing a criminal and civil action with the court. Again, I'm not positive of SC procedures since I didn't work as a police officer in this state.
If anyone knows any of the famiiies, they might want to mention the way in which this investigation is proceeding and see if there is any interest on their part to pursue this. If they are not interesed, I don't think I would pursue it on my own.
For now, I would think that the primary focus should be on electing new leadership and insisting that the upper management of the CFD be replaced. The election isn't too far in the future. You all need to get started on replacing this mayor pretty soon. Otherwise he may very well be re-elected and nothing will change.
The other major push should be to get a national media outlet in here to shine some light on this. That could be a major benefit, perhaps even better than a criminal investigation.
September 7, 2007 at 1:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
You may contact Governor Mark Sanford by sending him a letter to the following address:
Mailing Address:
Governor Mark Sanford
Office of the Governor
P.O. Box 12267
Columbia, SC 29211
Fax: 803-734-5167
You may also contact the Governor's Office at 803-734-2100. Scheduling requests should be made in writing to the above address or fax number.
I am MORE than willing to ask for a forum with the Governor...anyone else on board to go?
September 7, 2007 at 1:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mggoose2000 (anonymous) says...
I have been associated with OSHA and MSHA at the state and federal level for the last 35 years. I've held the position of Senior Union Safety Officer, Fire Brigade Commander, Hazmat Security Officer and other postions dealing with on the job safety and health standards. My experience has been that the OSHA and MSHA reps have always been professional people, trying to ensure that safety and health issues at every job level are maintained according to current regulations. Now, everyone wants to stomp Chief Rusty Thomas into oblivion because we've become a society of sue happy zealots. With all the attention to safety in the workplace, there are still accidents resulting in injury and deaths every year. These accidents occur in all job descriptions, from common laborer to corporate executive. In 1998, OSHA revised it's rules and laws governing forklifts. They made it mandatory that everyone operating a motorized lifting device in the workplace has to have proper instruction in the safe operation of these type vehicles. Yet, every year there are still accidents and injuries, some resulting in death. There is no perfect solution; just an ongoing effort to attempt to prevent these accidents from happening. Until we remove the human element, there will be accidents. If the CFD implements new training and firefighting techniques, then they are following protocol. There wouldn't be this clamor for these things to happen if we hadn't had this terrible accident resulting in such a large loss of human life. Folks, crucifying this man won't bring back the dead; it will just ruin another man's life as well as his family. There are more than just this man to blame for this tragedy and hind sight being what it is, we can all stand around and point fingers of blame. That's the easy part; let's stop looking for blame and support with positive energy the implementation of new and better training and policies that will prevent this from every happening again and leave a man alone with his pain. I promise you that if you watched the memorial service and saw this man's face, you'd know that he is suffering every moment over what happened. I've been the leader of a firedepartment (brigade) and I'm telling you, this is a close group of men and women. Your fellow firefighters are a part of your family. You might not like someone, but you'd never put his life in danger on purpose because the next time, it might be you in danger. You look after one another because you are trained that way. That's why we lost 9 and not 1 or 2. These heroes were looking after each other. Let the memories be of great men, great friends and great family men.
September 7, 2007 at 1:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CFDGOODOLDBOY (anonymous) says...
IF YOU DON'T LIKE , TRY AND CHANGE IT!!! WE CAN NOT!!!! THE SYSTEM WILL WIN! RILEY WILL WIN! RUSTY,,WELL,,,MAYBE NOT!!!!!! BUT YOU OR I WILL NEVER CHANGE THE SYSTEM IN THIS STATE. I TRIED FOR 25 YEARS AND MY VOICE WAS TOLD TO BE QUITE WITH IN THE CFD. SO WERE ALOT OF MEN OLDER AND BRAVER THAN I WOULD EVER THINK OF BEING. SICK??? YES I AM!!! I HAVE BEEN FOR OVER 25 YEARS SHARED WITH MY FAMILY WITH IN THE DEPT.WH KNOW THE FRUSTRATION OF KNOWING THERE WAS A BETTER SAFER WAY. YOU WILL NEVER KNOW HOW WE FEEL AS A FAMILY OF BROTHERS AT BEING LOOK DOWN OWN BY A MAYOR THAT KEEPS GETTING ELECTED, AND HIS STAFF OF GOOD OLD BOYS, WHICH REACHES HIGH PLACES IN THIS STATE. YOU WILL NEVER KNOW HOW THE LOSS OF OUR FRIENDS FEELS, UNLESS YOU ARE ONE OF US.
TOO YOU ALL!!! TAKE ACTION NOW!! LET THE WORLD OUTSIDE KNOW HOW YOU FEEL!!! MAKE IT HAPPEN WE CAN NOT! WE HAVE TRIED AND HAVE ONLY BEEN ABLE TO MAKE A SMALL DINT, NOW 9 OF US ARE GONE BECAUSE THE SYTEM HERE IS NOT GOING ANYWHERE UNLESS YOU DO SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO HELP!
September 7, 2007 at 1:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Local (anonymous) says...
My earlier post has email addresses for 60 Minutes and Fox. Here are the links for CNN and World News with Charles Gibson (ABC).
http://www.cnn.com/exchange/ireports/... (this page talks a lot about video but you don't need to have a video to submit a news item)
http://abcnews.go.com/Site/page?id=32... (select News Story Submission in the drop down box)
September 7, 2007 at 1:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Zarclone (anonymous) says...
if Riley doesnt support Rusty,then he would be admitting things were wrong,then he admits defeat and the city of charleston will be open to multiple lawsuits, and he will loose the election..as far as having Ricky or this safety officer for the city sit in on the intervews, ricky will run straight to rusty and those men would be "rode" the entire time they are on the job...i know i have seen it done numerous time while i was a member of the dept.. Ricky does not know what he is doing..i know i was in the dept also..we all know Rusty doesnt know what is happening nor does Riley know..look just Remenber the fire at Albright & Wilson..as the city not fined a large sum of money..and what for ??someone refresh my memory please
September 7, 2007 at 1:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Mggoose,
No one will ruin Rusty Thomas' life or his family's...He has PLENTY time in for a SECOND retirement...How would THIS ruin his life?
How about the lives of the families of those 9 men? They ARE truly ruined, now aren't they?
With all do respect to your position and title, Sir, those of us who have family and friends in the fire service won't stand idly by and watch more men and women die.
As for the close knit brotherhood, you are correct, they are a close family...but in this situation, there are men inside this department that are now waging "war" against brothers who see the failures and want to change them, so those men are actively working to find out their identities and then turning them over to the "powers that be"...nice family eh?
The majority of the men in this department are fantastic men...they truly work for each other in the brotherhood..it is the "chosen few" of the Rusty brigade that want to control it all...
If you find the fact that civilians are on the bandwagon with those honest men who are pushing for change, then I feel sorry for you and your misunderstanding of the truth of the Charleston "situation".
Again, I respect your title and your certain hard work, but, I can't think of one man that died that night that would be angry with the push from the outside to demand the truth and change the failures.
As for people wanting to sue Rusty, that is their Constitutional right...more power to them...it sends a very strong message to those that follow suit with his tactics and lack of initiative to change the "age old" ways, that there ARE bigger powers, and they will make you accountable for your actions, or inactions.
I saw his face, I heard his words...in person even...not via television...I was even a little impressed with his song and dance in the beginning...then his pluff mudd rolled out of his cheek and he made his famous statements that we have more than sufficiently quoted in many comment sections.
Ignorance is not an accident...
September 7, 2007 at 1:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LeeWalton9 (anonymous) says...
We are fortunate to have the leadership we do--both the Mayor's office and at CFD. You people who have a hidden agenda, who are so cynical that you don't trust anyone or who just know things but act like you do have my pity.
September 7, 2007 at 1:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Good Old Boy,
Then while you have the ears of civilians who DO care, and ARE intent on seeing change, join the rank and file of THIS brigade...don't criticize us for trying to do what you feel can't be done, while you sit back on your can and complain that we can't fix the broken system.
You want change, then HELP us...I wasn't here 32 years ago...I was 5!!! I moved around, and collectively lived in Charleston and the low country for 10 years off and on...Was I complacent during my time here, YES, I WAS...Did I know what was going on in the CFD? Yep, SOME of it...and as a young teenager, I heard the stories, and had no power alone to push for change, anymore than I have the power to do it alone today...
So rather than succumb to the "forces", stand the HE!! up with us and defend those brothers still inside.
There is too much publicity now for people to stay in the dark...It's time to FORCE the changes..
September 7, 2007 at 1:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
LeeWalton,
I have no hidden agenda here other than to ensure that the next time a FF pays the ultimate price, it won't be because of ignorance of Brass positions.
If you can sleep at night knowing what their last words and thoughts were, and must have been, then good luck to you...
There are many more people involved in affecting change inside this department...Don't underestimate the power of the people...Charleston has been status quo for to long, and citizens are VERY sick of it.
Rusty didn't intend for men to die that night, nor did Garvin, but there is a system of accountability in this country...We voted for it...it is protected by our Constitution...without it, we are a dictatorship.
I grew up in a local fire department, I am not an ignorant idiot spouting off at the mouth to gain attention for myself. I KNOW what the Southern politics were then, and continue to be now. I am just one of many people working to force change...It will come..you can either be a part of that change, or have it force fed to you when it happens...either way the CHOICE is yours...I bet those men with they still had THEIR choice.
September 7, 2007 at 1:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
angeleyez0818 (anonymous) says...
CFDGOODOLEBOY, I misinterpreted your sarcasm. I apologize for my previous statement. I was wrong. I am sorry you have lived so long through this mess with the CFD. I am NOT one of you, but I belong with you if that makes sense. My husband is a FF in the low country and the only thing we can do is continue to shed light on the shady ways of the goodoleboy system. Please don't fight against us. Fight with us.
September 7, 2007 at 1:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
cfdgoodoldboy...
I'm trying to help you. I've contacted all of the national media outlets and I'm hoping that one or more will take me up on investigating this.
mggoose2000...
You are obviously very experienced and your comments are noteworthy. I agree that most of the OSHA people I have worked with are very professional and yes accidents do happen. I know because I have investigated more than a thousand deaths persoanlly.
I'm sure that this chief is bothered by what happened but I have very little sympathy for a man who stood in front of cameras after losing nine of his friends and employees and states that he knows how to fight fires and he's not going to change. That's a paraphrase, not a quote.
Is it normal procedure in OSHA investigations to allow supervisors to monitor interviews of subordinates when there would be fear of reataliation? I certainly hope not because that will certainly minimize the chance that the truth will be told.
September 7, 2007 at 1:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
leewalton9...
your loyalty is misplaced. Our mission is noble and we will not be deterred.
September 7, 2007 at 1:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
This might shed some further light on issues within the system here...
http://www.firefighterhourly.com/fire...
September 7, 2007 at 1:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
In the interest of leadership training, there is also the National Incident Management System (NIMS) issue.
Most believe it has good and bad points, but establishing and communicating an Incident Command System is an executive order of both the Office of Homeland Security and Governor Sanford. NIMS compliance can also be tied to the eligibility of federal preparedness funds.
http://www.fema.gov/txt/emergency/nim...
http://www.scemd.org/Library/NIMS/int...
http://www.nimsonline.com/nims_faq.htm#1
If the leadership has been trained on NIMS, it is not apparent in the comments they have made.
In the June 24 P&C article "Local, federal guidelines in conflict" by Ron Menchaca and Doug Pardue, the chief reportedly said that "he does not know whether his department's policies mirror federal and state guidelines for managing a fire scene. "
I don't know," he said. "I know we have our own."
http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/j...
September 7, 2007 at 2:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Zarclone,
You are so very right...
Riley might survive the tide much better if he appeared to be concerned more with the citizens and firefighters in the department instead of focusing on Rusty...the egg on Riley's face is largely due to Rusty's comments after the fire and his behaviors since then in the stations.
I suggest people try to talking to REAL firefighters, not the bootlicks peppered in certain stations...that is where the true stories come from.
September 7, 2007 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
angeleyez0818 (anonymous) says...
Mmgoose: Intentional or unintentional is not the question anymore. He should have been up to date with his trainings. He should have been aware of what was going on on his scene. He should have been aware of the structure's material. I think that it is not so much that we are trying to crucify anyone or ruin their lives, but their actions in the aftermath are unexcusable.
To paraphrase as Tim did, Rusty did say that nothing will change. He said that within 24 hours of loosing 9 of his men. Now they are trying to save face and keep their positions when over and over throughout all of this they have proved unworthy leaders. They are in it from themselves. For Riley to continue to back Rusty's negligence and ignorance is only proving to this community that he too is in it for himself only. My friend and his wife were both there that night. I had to watch them go through he!! for the days following.. The only thing I think that we are trying to accomplish is further prevention from something like this happening again and to give closure to our community as a whole. By shedding light on the true situation and cleaning house so to speak, Charleston may have a chance at a brighter future within the firefighting world, and these families and our community can get some closure on a situation that justice hasn't served yet.
September 7, 2007 at 2:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Just last week, Rusty made a comment (relayed to me by a FF), inside a station that no advanced training would be implemented UNLESS the panel recommends it. He stated this in front of the entire station and crew...This was RECENT!
September 7, 2007 at 2:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Firesister (anonymous) says...
BEFORE I START TRINITYTIM SHUT THE HELLUP.(put your life onthe line for someone that you dont know then come talk to me)FIRST OF all lets look at this for what it is worth, a tradgic accident that no one could and cannot control. If anyone of you can go out there and put your precious life on the line for someone that you dont know then step up to the plate. Second of all, all anyone does theses days is bitch about s--t that they have absolutly no control over what so ever that has nothing to do with them at all. But were to damn busy trying to see what is going on in everyone else lives that we also in some sort of way try to run it. SO the time will come for elections and if any of you sorry ass complainers out there still want to put in for the job of MAYOR OR FIRS CHEIF then go right ahead and do it, If not then shut the hell up all of you. I lost four really good comrads and two really good firends to that fire and all i want to do is let them RIP and remember the good times that i had with them. Yeah sure i want them back yeah sure i would love to have them here with me taiklgateing this FB season but there not and life is all about living and moveing on from tragidies like this. OK OK so some stuff could have been done different and some stuff could have been changed and it was there we were told about it so what the fact is it wasnt done and we dont know why no one can answer that question NO ONE. It's life you learn from it and if you dont learn from your mistakes that are made then you deserve to have it crash infront of your face and around again. HOPEFULLY this is something that we can all learn from and MOVE ON IN LIFE FROM IT. SO JUST SHUT THE HELL UP ALL OF YOU and let my friends REST IN PEACE . For god sake.
September 7, 2007 at 2:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
They NEVER should have been led into that building...if you are a FF, then YOU should also know that. As for any of the rest of us putting our lives on the line for others, I did that too...not as a FF, but as a member of our military. I served MY time, so that people like YOU have the right to voice right alongside ME. It is EVERYONE'S Constitutional right to make our local governments answer to the people.
Those aren't just SMALL things that went wrong that night...not just one or two things...pages and pages and pages...those men deserve to be honored by their communities and the truth be told so they CAN rest in peace...do you really believe they wouldn't have done the same things had they lived and others died?
I certainly hope you aren't who I think you could be...that truly would be tragic..If so, I will gladly speak to you personally...You'll know who I am...I am sorry you lost your friends...many people knew them, not just you, this is a NATIONAL tragedy...for people that think that firefighters are the only ones allowed to be upset and voice their opinions, you are wrong...I'm not a FF, but family members are, so that makes me an extended member...that makes me YOUR sister, now doesn't it?... since my SIBLING is a local FF...
To ensure that these tragedies never repeat themselves, we, as a community, including FFs, Police Officers, etc. MUST talk about the painful truths of what occurred in order to LEARN from them as you say...Growing pains are inevitable...the truth is utterly painful...but are you willing to pretend that change will come on its own?
For your information TrintyTim is a police officer (placing his life on the line for all of us too)...read his first post...
September 7, 2007 at 2:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jifdeng3 (anonymous) says...
In case anybody is wondering. In this state to meet OSHA for firefighters it is required to take a 80 hour Fundementals of Basic Interior Structural Firefighting which goes over BASIC fire behavior, protective equipment, breathing apparatus, search, rescue, and fire attack. This is (should) be followed by 60 hour NFPA Firefighter I which is a national benchmark. Covered in this class is building construction, ropes and knots, forceable entry, water supply, ventilation, salvage and overhaul, and communications. Firefighter II is a 36 hour course which covers incident management, building collapse and special rescue, hose tools and appliances, hydrant flow, fire detection and alarm systems, fire cause, pre-planning, reports, and coorinationg fire attack. This combination provides a well rounded firefighter. There are many more classes to take after these as well.
September 7, 2007 at 2:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CFDGOODOLDBOY (anonymous) says...
We need you all to know the situation is real. With no end in sight as long as the system is in place. We live with it every day, and on the days we are not here our family and friends hear us talk about it. I am tired of opportunity after opportunity being passed by while we take chances with our lives. My hands are tied as they have they have been forever, they know who we are,and our back are not safe with in, you never know who is talking, there is a lot of internal back stabbing going on also.
Keep up the calls and take on the system for us ,WE CAN NOT!
9 OF US ARE 9 TOO MANY FOR THIS TO COME TO LIGHT, BUT PLEASE DO NOT LET US DOWN NOW!
September 7, 2007 at 2:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
JIFDeng3,
Thank you for clarifying...Can you elaborate on this a bit? The SCFA course is something like two weeks, correct? and then FF I class and FF II classes can and usually are completed in house, right?
September 7, 2007 at 2:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jifdeng3 (anonymous) says...
Firesister, I do. I have been a firefighter for 11 years now in a variety of settings, paid and volunteer. I have worked in South Carolina and Oklahoma. I am sorry that these men died, but like everyone, I want to see good come out of it. Unfortunetly, it can be painful to take a look and pick yourself, and your department apart. This was not an accident, I am a firm believer that there is no such thing. (when humans are involved) Every situation has a cause. The question then becomes what went wrong, and how can it be prevented in the future. We all know the answer to number one, the true answer. A long standing policy of tradition has led to the City not advancing with the rest of the fire service. This has developed into a culture of ignorance which has finally lead to the deaths of nine outstanding men. The solution, in my humble opinion, is for Rusty and Riley to go. Change to a weak mayor goverment system and hire a professional fire chief to make sweeping changes in the department.
September 7, 2007 at 3:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
CFDGoodOldBoy,
We won't give up, you just have to bring us the information so that we can take it to the proper officials...
This isn't going to go away fast, and I can personally say I won't stop until the system is changed.
Stay safe!
September 7, 2007 at 3:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jifdeng3 (anonymous) says...
nickiegarbeil, There are a couple ways to go about it. There is a seven week program at the fire academy in Columbia that will take a person from nothing to firefighter II. Large departments, tend to have a rookie school where basic firefighter, and other certs are obtained. The fire academy publishes a catalog every six months that has all "Catalog Classes" in the state listed. Individual departments can host "in house" classes as well that are not published. Usually these in house classes are known about to all the local training divisions so the host depatment can get enough students to put the class on. The OSHA (1152) class when held like this is usually a two night a week and all day weekend class for approx. six weeks. Firefighter I and II are the same way but for less weeks.
September 7, 2007 at 3:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Thank you...
September 7, 2007 at 3:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
burton (anonymous) says...
Local, I have submitted my thoughts to the national media. Great idea! This tragic incident captured national attention so they should have no qualms about following up on it. Voters of Charleston, King Riley has bascially said "the hell with you and what you think, I am supporting my lame duck Chief."
Again, if you vote this man back in on November 6, you deserve everything that comes to you for the next 32 years he will be in office! Don't think he is not going to run again if he wins this election. Power is an addiction and King Riley has had 32 years of power addiction and just like a druggie, he wants more of it! Mercy!
September 7, 2007 at 3:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
zarclone: Your statement (paraphrased) that if Riley doesn't support Thomas, Riley admits defeat and then the city will be open to multiple lawsuits.
Just based on the information the P&C has provided over the past two months and the panel provided within a week of being here, I would say irregardless of what Riley or Thomas do at this point, this city is going to see some really heavy duty multiple lawsuits. IF these cases are not settled out of the courtroom, the citizens of Charleston are going to have a rude awakening listening to the testimony of the Mayor, Council members, and the firefighters, who on the stand are under oath and will NOT be intimidated by superiors' presence, and citizens who were present on the scene of the fire.
Whether these cases are settled out of the courtroom or tried to a verdict, the citizens of Charleston are going to be hit hard with an increase in taxes to cover those settlements/verdicts that will stagger them. The time to have avoided all of this was immediately after the fire, when the Mayor COULD have put Thomas on administrative leave until the investigations were completed. The time to have avoided all of this was immediately after the fire, when it would have been more appropriate for the Mayor to have said, "I do not wish to voice an opinion about either the fire or the fire department or the chief until after a thorough investigation is conducted." Citizens would have accepted this in lieu of such a tragedy and the press would have eventually accepted this in lieu of such a tragedy. To have openly supported the chief immediately after the fire, when that chief stated that if he had to do it over, he would not change a thing (in other words, he would have let nine men die again, Riley began his own political demise. Neither Riley nor the Chief stopped there. They continued to voice that CFD is an ISO #1 rated department (neither truly knowing what that meant). Riley continued to state that the Chief was an "excellent" fire chief. The Chief continued to state, until the panel made their recommendations, that he would continue to fight fires in the manner the department has always fought fires (and that would be aggressively, without proper training, without proper IC, without proper equipment).
These boards and the P&C coverage have made a great number of lawyers' jobs a little easier.
September 7, 2007 at 3:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
truckie1 (anonymous) says...
If a family settles out of court in order to get some needed closure they are not dishonoring their FF, nor is the family that decides not to settle and goes after the city in court. What would be dishonorable is not requiring legally binding necessary/needed changes to the system to any settlement whether in court or out so this does not happen again.
September 7, 2007 at 5:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
People might also consider contacting Brian Williams (NBC Nightly News), who served as a volunteer firefighter for several years and might have particular interest in this story.
You can find various contacts for NBC here:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10285339/
Here's Brian's bio:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3667173/
September 7, 2007 at 5:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
juniemoon1957 (anonymous) says...
Well, dang yaw are all so smart. And that is not sarcastic. It's a real comment. Do anyone of you know anyone at the P&C well enough to get them to make a video and send it to CNN and the rest of the news medias? What about the other news outlets? Local ones....WISTV.COM in Sanford town Columbia? Or WSOCTV in Charlotte, NC?
September 7, 2007 at 5:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
firesister...
This afternoon you told me to shutup until I had put my life on the line for someone else. Well, I have no ingtention of becoming involved in "ALL CAPS" argument with you. I think your comments say everything all by themselves. You obviously don't want the truth to come out probably because either you or someone close to you is involved up to their neck and you know that when this breaks you're circle the wagons defense will become transparent.
Oh and just so you'll know, I have 30+ years of putting my life on the line and I have the scars to prove it. You show me yours and I'll show you mine. How's that for you sister?
Does anyone know if the investigation results are available to the public and if so, where can I find it. I would like to include the findings to my media contacts.
September 7, 2007 at 5:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
truckie1 (anonymous) says...
They probably will not be made public until all the investigations are complete and then presented to the city.
September 7, 2007 at 5:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FS24C (anonymous) says...
The defenders of the system that was used in the CFD prior to this tragedy are misguided in their attempts to silence critics of the dept. brass. It is truly a dishonor to the men who died to stay silent in the face of the truth. This incident put on display the shortcomings of a command staff that appears never to have looked outside it's own circle for ideas and ways to provide superior service to the city of Charleston. The rank-and-file members of the CFD have not been led. They appear to have been ruled.
A professional attitude starts from the top down. It is more then just good looking uniforms and a Class 1 ISO rating. Those are things that politicians can point to and say "look at what we've done under my watch."
Some people call fire industry standards crap and dismiss the notion that not following these standards affected the outcome of this fire. The chief and his cronies would be in a more defensible position today if they could back up their leadership decisions at this incident and state "We made decisions based on the latest information available today in the fire service." It appears that this incident was handled like a room and contents in a 700' sq. ft. house in the 1960's not a large-area warehose with a heavy-fuel load in the year 2007.
Men died and the system that was in place appears to have failed. That is why there needs to be change. It will either come willingly from inside or will be forced from the ouside.
September 7, 2007 at 5:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=umfO8upIIBo
September 7, 2007 at 6:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
If anyone would like a copy of an email I received from a councilman with regard to a letter I mailed them about these firefighter issues, send me a Private message with your email address and I'll forward it on to you.
His response was very degrading and shows his lack of concern for this issue!
September 7, 2007 at 6:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Someone else you might contact.
Bill Dedman, investigative reporter MSNBC
One of his stories - Part of a series -
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19838982/
September 7, 2007 at 6:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
charleytowngirl - Bill Dedman, investigative reporter MSNBC might like to see the councilman's email. Perhaps some on the city of charleston council think they can hide behind the mayors skirts.
September 7, 2007 at 6:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
He came to charleston doing a story on the fire and funerals for the 9 firefighter heroes.
September 7, 2007 at 6:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Well city of charleston, city council, from what I'm hearing it looks like there's a big freight train heading charleston way. The only question is, are you going to be on board the train, or standing in front of it, like a frightened deer staring into the headlights, when it hits town.
September 7, 2007 at 6:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
FS24C: Great comments. We are just hoping that the changes forced from the outside will come before any other of our brave CFD ff heroes die in the line of duty. Morale is low and the trust of the upper level supervisors is missing, which is a frightening element to a fire scene.
charlestonclemsonfan: People would stop by the fire stations in the city and talk to the ffs; however, from my understanding, the ffs have been ordered by Chief Thomas not to talk to anyone about the fire, the conditions at the station, etc. The ones who are telling you everything is "fine" are probably bootlickers or just defending their jobs so they aren't reported as "disgruntled" employees. We have heard on various message boards in the past from the ffs and have gotten a lot of information from them prior to Rusty's "order for silence."
September 7, 2007 at 7:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jifdeng3 (anonymous) says...
charleytowngirl, Check your PM
September 7, 2007 at 7:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
FIRESISTER: "It's life you learn from it and if you dont learn from your mistakes that are made then you deserve to have it crash infront of your face and around again."
What a profound statement you made.
Don't you think that is EXACTLY what the citizens of Charleston want to happen. Learn from the mistakes (serious mistakes) that were made do it doesn't "crash infront of your face and around again."
You can only learn from a mistake if you first ADMIT that a mistake was made. That has not been done in this situation. It is a huge coverup.
September 7, 2007 at 7:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
JIFDENG3: You've got mail :)
September 7, 2007 at 7:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Vesta: Excellent comments! So true...if they had just either kept their mouths shut or admitted mistakes instead of trying to deny them, the whole situation, while still, very, very tragic, would have been much better for the future of the Chief and the Mayor.
September 7, 2007 at 7:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
carolinapanther (anonymous) says...
I think its funny how everybody is getting pleasure out of these forums! All yall do is sit around on your computers all day long bad mouthing our leaders.
September 7, 2007 at 7:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Exorcist_pencocky, Thanks for the suggestion...I am contemplating doing just that!
If anyone else wants to see his degrading response, send me a Private message through the P&C with your email address and I'll forward you a copy.
To think, a CITY COUNCILMAN that sends degrading email to citizens concerned about this tragedy! I'm miffed!
September 7, 2007 at 7:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
(see news story on wcbd-tv)
>>> The city of charleston mayor riley has stated that the city is considering a lawsuit against OSHA. The mayor claims OSHA made false claims that the city's firefighter uniforms did not meet requirements. <<<
Duh - joe, joe, joe, what part of "100% polyester will melt when introduced to a heat source, can't you understand?"
Ya sued the City of North Charleston to try to stop it from becoming a city, ya sued James Island to try to stop it from becoming a town, now ya going to sue OSHA.
You sure don't mind wasting the "Taxpayers" money, do you joe.
Oh, I understand, its just hard spending it to help the fire department.
September 7, 2007 at 8:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Harpo,
As many times as I have posted in support of these firefighters and as many times as you and I have sent private messages, back and forth, I am saddened and shocked that you would imply that I would forward anyone's private email address or letter received to a third party.
Forgive me if I am not as computer saavy as you. No, it did not occur to me to copy and paste the letter, but if that is what you would like for me to do, just PM me and I will do so. If ANYONE would like a copy of the council man's response,, I will be glad to forward it in that manner.
Harpo, I really just wish you had suggested this to me in another private message, rather than accuse me of using someone else's email to forward to a third party.
I am in sincere in my attempt to try to help here. You are way to paranoid.......
September 7, 2007 at 8:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
Why not just post the e-mail response on here for all of the world to see?
September 7, 2007 at 8:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Be glad to, hebthree....here it is. I have deleted MY email address from his reply as it is my private email I use for friends, family, councilmembers, etc.......
He did not include a copy of my original letter, I've sent many over the last few weeks. It may have been in response to a link to a youtube video that has been going around, but I'm not sure. Nice response from an elected official, eh?! By they way, it's from Larry Shirley........
----- Original Message -----
From: GOVlarry@aol.com
To:
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2007 12:12 AM
Subject: Re: City of Charleston Firefighters
LISA,
YOU NEED HELP.
REGARDS,
LARRY
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
September 7, 2007 at 8:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
truckie1 (anonymous) says...
Carolinapanther, just sit for a minute and contemplate why these particular forums are here in the first place. Still think its for pleasure or funny? If you do that makes you part of the problem.
September 7, 2007 at 9 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
No, Harpo, your private message did not include the instructions on copy and paste, but the letter is posted above. I did however, send you a second private message asking if you had a better suggestion for me forwarding it to you without needing your private email address. I did not receive a reply from you, only read the suggestion in this forum.
I feel stupid that it did not occur to me to do that in the first place and again, it was NEVER my intent to forward anyone's email address to a third party. Nor would I ever do such a thing.
I'm on the side of the citizens for change! Perhaps I was so flabbergasted that an elected official would respond to a citizens letter in this fashion that I was not thinking clearly. Admittedly, I was VERY PO'd by his reply.
September 7, 2007 at 9:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
I just read this in my 1st Infantry Division newsletter and thought it was appropriate. Enjoy
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A veteran - whether active duty, retired, National Guard, reserves, a police officer, or fireman - is someone who, at one point in his/her life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no longer understand it.
Author Unknown
September 7, 2007 at 9:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
Strange - a National union (IAFF) asks a Federal Agency that has no jurisdiction or experience investigating municipal fire departments to investigate a State Agency that does have such jurisdiction and experience. Is the IAFF so incompetent themselves that they did not know that the federal OSHA agency had no such authority? If they contacted federal OSHA, why does OSHA deny that the IAFF asked them to intervene in the Charleston probe?
Other than their broad assumptions, on what basis does the IAFF claim that the firemen who were interviewed were coerced or intimidated and could not "honestly" reply to the investigation? Seems these firemen did a good job regarding incident command decisions and polyester uniforms. As a result, Mayor Riley listened and CFD's chief officers, including Chief Thomas, will undergo training in MD to improve their ability to command firefighting efforts and the firemen uniforms are being updated.
Mayor Riley is correct; Zack's statements on behalf of the IAFF are "outrageous and irresponsible." The IAFF should further be rebuked for questioning the "honesty" and integrity of the CFD firefighter interviewees.
What qualifications does the IAFF have investigating fires much less having the audacity to criticize a State OSHA investigator's qualification?
The IAFF has its own agenda and firemen welfare is not likely at the top of the list. They apparently do not like Mayors - they are politically oriented and even have a video out that attacks ex-NY Mayor and Presidential candidate Rudy Guilliani who managed the World Trade Center disaster in a time of crisis. Joe Riley seems to be in good company.
The State might investigate the IAFF's selling practices based on the memories of the Charleton firefighters via Charleston 9 Memorial Coins - either fake gold that is advertised as having the "look and feel of gold" but are actually made out of a "brass alloy" or a bronze version, a bronze key chain, T-Shirts, patches, and lapel pins. The "profits" are supposed to go to various "memorial funds." The key word is "profits."
Riley will be re-elected and Chief Thomas will remain as the CFD Chief. They are both being very proactive in responding to issues raised by the Sofa Super Store tragedy.
September 7, 2007 at 9:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
rjahopp..
What flavor of Kool Aid are you drinking tonight?
September 7, 2007 at 9:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
charleytowngirl - You may have misunderstood the councilman's meaning. He may have been telling you he thought your one person email wouldn't be enough to matter. He would need to see hundreds, nay thousands of emails addressed to his email account .................. (Ooops)
September 7, 2007 at 9:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
This is a local issue; death got national attention but mayoral elections, local fire safety practices, uniforms, AC trucks, etc. have little or no national interest. 60 Minutes, CNN, FOX News, etc. will not come knocking or otherwise pick up the baton. The P&O and its reporters will neither be nominated for nor receive a Pulitzer Prize for their Sofa Super Store journalistic efforts.
September 7, 2007 at 9:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
rjahopp - Sounds like a bunch of cachu to me.
Whats that I hear in the distance..
Chug.....Chug....Chug...Chug...Chug..Chug..Chug..Chug..Chug
September 7, 2007 at 9:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Wilmot (anonymous) says...
Carolinapanther and LeeWalton 9. You two make me nauseous. I sit here and wonder what connection you have with the heads of the city. You can not possibly be employees of the city. You two say the word leaders. Obviously you have never answered to totalitarianistic dictators such as Riley or RT. I have. You two are either directly related to one of these two or directly employed by them and have chosen to throw away all dignity. I decided long ago that I would just be a regular employee and keep my dignity and remain nuetral. I did what I was told and did not buck the system. I also at the same time did not kiss butt. Then 9 people died under the command of the people that I knew were wrong in their ways but chose to ignore. Now I am going to do whatever I can to let everyone know what corrupt con artist they are. These "leaders" have you and many others brainwashed. Rusty has hardly even been seen by the ff's of the CFD since the 18th. Before he was all over us. So if he is not guilty of all the things that bloggers and commenters say he is, where is he? If he's such a great leader, why isn't he embracing the positive changes that we need to make instead of saying negative things about the changes to the few people who catch him out of his hole?
September 7, 2007 at 9:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Great comment, Wilmot!
Exorcist, I and many others that read that response from Councilman Shirley did not take it that way. Many people that I have been in contact with, through email, phone calls and in person visits have written MANY letters to city council already. I am NOT the only email he has received. But nice of you to try to see the good in him.
I'm appalled at his response, as should anyone who has sent letters to council members.
By the way, Exorcist, you write some great comments too. Keep up the good work! :)
September 7, 2007 at 9:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8b5PZY...
September 7, 2007 at 9:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Lead and inspire people. Don't try to manage and manipulate people. Inventories can be managed but people must be led. ~ Ross Perot
Does this sound like your chief and mayor?
September 7, 2007 at 9:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
charleytowngirl - By my comment I was trying to take the mick out of him, be sarcastic against him. I understood exactly what he meant, and so did his friends.
September 7, 2007 at 9:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
oh duh....see...I'm upset over this! Forgive me....maybe I need to go back on the Estroven!
September 7, 2007 at 9:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
For those with questions regarding whatever training is required- remember that the standards are actually set by the chief, who ultimately accepts the responsibility for his personnel. All the departments in SC that I have worked with require the Interior certification from SCFA- but can waive that if the chief is willing to take the responsibility.
Now another question. If, as according to this news story, Rusty has changed his mind and vowed to implement whatever changes are necessary to improve his department, has anyone seen or heard of the changes he is implementing? Officially, I mean, and other than the proposed uniform change?
September 7, 2007 at 10:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Wilmot: Great comments. We can all agree that he is making negative comments to the suggested changes because he has been in this rut of thirty years of ff without considering progress in (1) leadership, (2) training or (3) equipment. I, also feel negative, but in a different manner. Sending the chiefs to the National Fire Academy is a positive step, but four days of training, even there, will not erase 30 years of fighting fires in the "good ol' way". Unfortunately, as many have already posted, we haven't heard the Chief say that any mistakes were made, therefore, why would he take what he learns there and bring it back to the CFD and make changes?? If and when the CFD ffs are given additional, progressive training, will they still not be following the orders given by their chiefs? If the chiefs do not change and adapt to modern techniques, they will once again put our brave CFD heroes in harm's way.
September 7, 2007 at 10:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Question.
Are these chiefs going to Montgomery County Fire/Rescue for training or are they enrolled in the National Fire Academy courses in Emmittsburg, Maryland?
September 7, 2007 at 10:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
truckie1 (anonymous) says...
They are going to Montgomery Co Maryland
September 7, 2007 at 10:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Thanks Truckie
That's what I thought.
September 7, 2007 at 10:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
And it doesn't say that they are going to receive NFA certification. Just that they are attending a "training facility" - here's the article.
http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/s...
September 7, 2007 at 11:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
trinitytim: my bad...I meant the Montgomery County Fire/Rescue. Top notch, but, as I said, four days there will probably not erase 30 years of backward techniques. I wonder if this is another one of the mayor's "outs". 'We sent our chiefs for training which the panel recommended.' If the chiefs do not incorporate that training into their department, it is all for naught.
September 7, 2007 at 11:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
I see we have some new one hit wonder idiots in on here today,LeeWalton, Firesister, Carolinapanther, keep drinking the kool-aid kids you still have a ways to go to equal our resident idiot, rjahopp.
Something hasn't been sitting with me well the last few days. I watched that video on youtube of Rusty at that realtors meeting, He reciecved an ovation!!! It seems to me that he is wearing those nine men on his sleeves, like a badge of honor. There is no honor in what he did! His narcossisstic attitude towards change and progress is what put those men in that position in the first place and now your giving speeches to conventions. Bravo Rusty, Bravo, way to profit on their blood!
I'm happy to see the Intl union step in, this will create national exposure and push for the truth.
September 7, 2007 at 11:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Here's an article about the training on Firehouse.com:
http://cms.firehouse.com/web/online/C...
September 7, 2007 at 11:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
jim: where is the site for Rusty's comments at the Realtor's Meeting?
September 7, 2007 at 11:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Joemustgo (anonymous) says...
Does anyone think it is odd that the new training is conducted by a Montgomery County Fire and Rescue Service Public Information Officer who is part of a group of outside investigators reviewing firefighting practices, code enforcement, fire-rescue training and media relations... Is there going to be a conflict of interest? Is the review board going to be impartial?
September 7, 2007 at 11:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
Vesta, http://youtube.com/watch?v=F98jZCOtCAk
September 7, 2007 at 11:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
In the story on firehouse.com referenced above, there is a line in the story that says:
"Riley has said there's much to be learned from the June 18 incident."
Did I miss this comment from Riley somewhere?
September 7, 2007 at 11:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Charleytowngirl,
Glad to see you posted that rude SOB's response. There you go City of Charleston citizens...THAT is what represents YOUR ideas and concerns within the city...FF's: We know how you feel, THIS is what we deal with daily trying to get people to listen to our concerns...
This example needs to be forwarded far and wide across the state...Make sure the Governor finds a copy of this in his email box...
Like I said before, it is time for a citizens group to head to Columbia for a private forum with Gov. Sanford. I'll be writing the Governor Monday...Anyone interested in going?
September 8, 2007 at 12:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
traumajunkie15 (anonymous) says...
CFDgoodolboy, as a family member of the CFD I truly feel your pain and do everyshift put my ass on the line for perfect strangers. I too lost some good friends. BUT we will try everthing in our power to protect those that are left behind. NO MATTER WHAT. Some of us are even willing to put our jobs on the line to do so. I have several family members in this department and refuse to idly stand by and watch June 18th happen again. You have my unconditional support.
Firesister, Oh where to begin....Again read the above. I TOO put my ass on the line every shift for some stranger. I have family members in the CFD and WILL NOT just stand back and say "oh well whats done is done so just drop it." If thats the way you feel then I believe your current "comrads" need to know this. Things need to change and if it takes ALOT of "bitching" then so be it. 9 FIREMEN DIED BECAUSE THIS DEPARTMENT IS STILL IN THE 19th CENTURY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dont get me wrong I know it will take time, ALOT of time but somethings have to chage before we lose any more.
As for you clemsonfan, these FF have NEVER been allowed to speak out. If they had done individual interviews in the first place it still would not have mattered. They didnt interview the entire department so it would not have been difficult to pick out those ppl that "bad mouthed" the department or Rusty. I will agree that he is not stupid in that aspect. He does know who his "followers" are.
To all the FF here blogging on these sites May God bless and keep you every single day.
September 8, 2007 at 12:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Rjahopp,
Guilliani was doing a recovery on the world trade center. When the gold was recovered he downgraded to salvage.
When they went to salvage the debris was loaded and sent to the dump. He didn't bother taking the bodies out. It would entail extra expense and we need to keep taxxes down, right?
So good mayor Guilliani sent our dead to the dump. Numerous bodies were found amidst the garbage at the landfill. If that's good company go ahead and join him.
September 8, 2007 at 5:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
charleytowngirl - I can't believe the response. That's rother odd.
Would you mind posting the e-mail you sent to him? That e-mail should be in your "sent items".
September 8, 2007 at 8:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
hebthree: I have sent numerous emails to city council members in the last few weeks. I do not know which one he was responding to because he did not include a copy of my original email with his reply.
Rest assured, though, that I have responded to his nasty reply with copies to the council members, concerned citizens that I correspond with through email and Glenn Smith of the P&C and the blog owner of www.firefighterhourly.com.
I do have a feeling that his reply may have been to the youtube video link I sent council members that is a tribute to the Charleston 9 that has been posted on these forums recently. The video asks a few hard questions. Regardless of what he was responding to, it just goes to show that he could care less about what the public feels about this tragedy.
Citizens, I urge more of you to send emails to city council members. Not that they really care (well two of them do, I believe) but they need to know that MANY citizens are concerned about their LACK of CONCERN on the safety for the men in this department. They need to understand that the MAYOR is making all the decisions and that is not good for the future of this department.
As one very pleasant, concerned council member told me, they are not receiving very many emails from concerned citizens. Everyone writing to council needs to step it up a notch or two so they WILL hear us. And I urge any of you that gets a response from any council member like I did to share it with the public. We need to know where City Council REALLY stands on this issue.
September 8, 2007 at 8:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
I know enough about Montgomery County Fire to know that they will put on a very good training program but I fail to understand how four or five days of command training and shadowing MCFD commanders would be a sound basis for changing the CFD.
I would think the courses of the NFA wojuld be the better choice but considering all the prerequisites it may take Rusty and his chiefs a long time to even be accepted.
Good luck to everyone in Charleston. I hope you can attain your goals. I have written to just about everyone I can think of to help you out. Keep up the good work. A lot of great ff's are depending on you and a few suck ups are scared of you.
God bless all firefighters EMS police and militray veterans.
September 8, 2007 at 9:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
I don't care what kind of email a citizen sends to a member of the government, it never, ever should be rebuked in that fashion. I have read the original email, and there is NOTHING in it that indicates that she is either a nut case or harassing in any fashion. For all of my obnoxiousness, I have a very high standard of etiquette for mailing letters to officials out of respect, and I feel her letter was more than polite and respectful of their position in government.
Harpo, You can blame me for Charley offering to send the letter exchange to people via private email. I suggested it as it proves the integrity of the exchange...nothing copied and pasted so as no one can question whether or not anything was changed. MOST people would have just created a free email under an assumed name and not thought anything about it...Several have done that with me in the past...
Charley, I apologize for the heat you took from Harpo on that, I seriously didn't think anyone would find that suspicious, especially since we all have exchanged many posts back and forth as well as private messages. Only the supporters of the system would be interested in gathering IP addresses...he!! I wouldn't even know how to go about doing it!
September 8, 2007 at 9:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Charley...
Don't worry about it. I used the same email addres I gave you to email the mayor, news organizations, and others interested in this so I am not worried about anything these clowns can do.
nickie...
Thanks.
September 8, 2007 at 9:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
trinitytim: You aren't leaving are you? We need supporters like you!
Nickie: Thanks for your comments. If I can't figure out copy and paste, I sure as heck cannot figure out tracing an IP address either. Anyway, I'm over it. I can see where some people might be paranoid about their email address, given the threats made by some people commenting about how they were gathering IP addresses and sending them to the Chief or the Mayor. I would never do anything to hurt a supporter of the CFD or the men.
I still have a lot of respect for Harpo's comments!
Back to the topic, this one thing is really bugging me.....the article...why would FEDERAL OSHA deny that anyone from the National Union has asked for them to intervene in the state OSHA investigation. And when is that report from State OSHA supposed to be released?
September 8, 2007 at 9:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Anytime TrinityTim....
I have heard through the grapevine(unable to confirm, however) that the report could be out this month...
As for why Fed. OSHA would deny it? Who knows...maybe it is something as simple as the person that was asked by National isn't the person asked by the reporters? Hard to say...if it is anything like a lot of governmental agencies, their left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing...lack of internal communication...something as simple as person one not documenting that someone called? Happens all the time when you call about bills, or insurance issues, right? LOL
Maybe it is as obvious as the Feds don't want the State OSHA to know they are watching, so as to catch the State off guard when they mess up? In other words, don't tip their hand, so they can't clean up their trail of internal messes? Just theories, of course...
September 8, 2007 at 9:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
Quote trinitytim "I know enough about Montgomery County Fire to know that they will put on a very good training program but I fail to understand how four or five days of command training and shadowing MCFD commanders would be a sound basis for changing the CFD."
Actually thats how our department and most others start. An ICS is not all that complicated. Those that have taken the course must now come back set up a committee, develop a Standard Operating Guideline, and teach the system to the rest of the department.
Then start using it at every call until it becomes second nature, even on the smallest nuisance call.
They are on the right track as long as they follow through, it would also be advantageous if they sent the Captains to the same training course!
September 8, 2007 at 10:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Bickleseagrave...
Am I to understand that you currently do not have SOP's in the CFD or are you hoping that the MCFD will provide your leasdership with up to date and effective SOP's?
I did not mean to question the decision to attend this training because I know they will present a great program. I continue to believe however, that the CFD needs to invest in structured command training and I thinkt the National Fire Academy is a great place to learn.
It's on a beautiful campus not too far from Camp David. Anyone who gets to go there has to eat at Mountaingate Restaurant in Thurmont. Best home cooked food I've ever had. It's one of the few things I miss about Maryland.
September 8, 2007 at 10:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
jim: thanks for the site. It is all about HIM, isn't it?? He makes for a really poor spokesperson. I wonder how he will sound in depositions and in the stand in the courtroom with citizens and press present. We will see.
September 8, 2007 at 10:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ThePhink (anonymous) says...
Fire the chief. Bring in a new one. New one replaces most ff's. A year from now we will all be here again with the same ones hollering to fire the new chief. Be careful what you ask for, you just might get it.
Everyone knows problems that have gone back 25 years and no one says a thing until 9 people die. Um, just as guilty.
September 8, 2007 at 10:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Phink,
You make a point that we, as citizens, should have come forward sooner to look at the way the City runs its agencies...unfortunately, the resistance we meet with today is nothing compared to what we would have met back then without a tragedy...Pathetic, yes...but truth, nonetheless...no one listens anywhere unless there is a tragedy. You are right that we should have spoken up sooner...we didn't...I speak for myself when I say, I ASSUMED everything was manageable as a citizen and lay person...I heard rumors, but I put no further thought into them...guilty? Yes...and I feel that daily..I am sure I am not the only one who does...we ALL should, for that matter. We allowed the City government to take on a life of its own, and we sat by and became enablers.
For whatever his faults were, Rubin Greenberg wrote a book titled, "Let's Take back our Streets"...I am going to borrow from that idea and make the challenge to the citizens that we "Take back our local government"...It's time we stop living in the status quo, believing we cannot change the ills. Remember people...we don't work for Joe and Council, THEY WORK FOR US!!! WE can HIRE AND FIRE any one of them.
As for a new Chief...I think if the process is a good one, in hiring a new Chief, most people will be satisfied trusting this person's intuition, HOWEVER...I know I will probably never again take issues like these for granted. I will always question my government, the agencies within, etc. from here on out..no more complacency for me...
I honestly don't foresee a new Chief replacing MOST of the men, as you say it...I CAN foresee him replacing much of the existing brass, with a few exceptions...in an attempt to reduce the "breeding" of the good ole boy system that has strong roots.
There will always be people who are angry with the systems in place, someone wants a promotion and doesn't get it, someone messes up on the job and is reprimanded, etc...but as long as a Nationally Accepted standard of safety is followed, those comments are taken for what they are...
September 8, 2007 at 11:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Wilmot (anonymous) says...
Phink, the last time your car broke down, did you not get it repaired because you knew it would eventually break down again? When you woke up this morning, did you not make your bed because you knew you would just get back in it tonight? Come on man! Come up with something a little more intelligent than that.
September 8, 2007 at 1:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Good point about the NFA, Trinity Tim. These chiefs are not going to "change" with four days of training. Again, people, I think this is purely for "show". When the panel reconvenes and makes more recommendations, Riley can emphatically state that the city sent their chiefs to Montgomery County for training. Most citizens do not understand how much training ffs and, more importantly, chiefs need to run an effective department. Riley can also say he is changing the uniforms, no thanks to OSHA. No one seems to understand that this is the same dude who said "his" fire department was the number one in the nation. If so, why all this need for changes???
Trinity: check your pm.
September 8, 2007 at 3:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
One question I continue have is this;
How are the citizens of Charleston to know of these concerns unless they read these posts. I saw the video of the chief that was posted above and he received a rousing round of applause. It looked to me like he was playing the sympathy card and it also looked like it was working.
I'm afraid that you may very well end of with Riley and Rusty for at least one more term.
September 8, 2007 at 4:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Sorry to slide off-topic here, but has anyone considered contacting Senator Graham?
http://lgraham.senate.gov/
There's a contact form on his Web site:
http://lgraham.senate.gov/index.cfm?m...
I read the City's Freedom of Information Requests, and I am concerned that they are being submitted in the midst of an ongoing investigation. You can find a link to a .PDF of the requests at the top of the Charleston.net article below.
The .PDF file sometimes hangs when I try to read it, though. Note that the requests were sent to multiple agencies, so there are multiple letters.
http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/s...
September 8, 2007 at 4:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Fiddler7...
You might be better off contacting Jim DeMint instead of Graham. Graham's up for re-election next year and he's had a rough few months because of his support for the illegal immigration amnesty bill. I doubt he would get involved except for a form letter response.
I could be wrong so feel free to get in touc with him. Let us know what kind of response you get.
September 8, 2007 at 5:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
Quote trinitytim "Bickleseagrave...
Am I to understand that you currently do not have SOP's in the CFD or are you hoping that the MCFD will provide your leasdership with up to date and effective SOP's?"
Sorry to mislead you Tim, I am not with CFD, I am in another department, Canada actually. I was describing how my department implemented the ICS system a number of years ago. What I was saying was that the CFD members should go home with enough knowledge to get the ICS rolling in their department. They should look at various SOG's including MCFD and departments around them and draft a set that covers Charleston's needs as well as letting them work closely with their neighbors. An Incident Command Sysytem is not that complicated, the biggest hurdle is trying to implement it. Once implemented it should be used even for the most minor calls to get used to the terminology etc.
I also believe that it would be good to have the line officer's(Captains) take the 4 or 5 day course first hand and then pass the information learned on to their respective crews.
Sometimes when it is the top brass that takes the course it doesn't always get passed on!!
September 8, 2007 at 6:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Bickleseagrave...
Thank you for the clarification. Makes sense to me. I only hope the CFD is serious about changing and implements the training they receive in Montgomery County.
Good point about the Captains too. Nice to have input from our friends to the north.
September 8, 2007 at 7:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Bick: good points. What worries all of us is that the top brass haven't kept the ffs in the loop at all in the past. (For example, telling them not to worry about operating the TICs), so we are very concerned that IC information will be largely ignored by the brass and not passed on to the ffs. It comes down to, for example, how CFD got a #1 ISO rating. The mayor is doing this for show at a time, just prior to the election, when he can say that the department has encouraged an independent review and has "complied" with the suggestions offered. Once he is elected, everything goes back "to normal". Except it is NOT normal for nine men to die in a fire such as this. Nick Brunacini, Alan's son, has said about IC, and I paraphrase, if he gets to the scene of a fire, and sends men in and things do not get better in five minutes, he orders EVERYONE back out. He thinks his men are worth far more than a building.
September 8, 2007 at 10:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
trinitytim: check your pm
September 8, 2007 at 10:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
good night.
Vesta, check you pm for the reply.
God bless the Charleston 9
September 8, 2007 at 11:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
trinitytim,
Check your pm again :)
September 8, 2007 at 11:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
firemedic3 (anonymous) says...
Hi everyone, I am new to this Blog session I think the discussion is great, I am however in Shock to hear the practices of the CFD. I am fortunately working for a very progressive Fire Department in Florida, And it sounds like you all could use as much help as possible. I am going to rally as many emails and phone calls from down here through our local with getting the word out to proper people. It sounds like you have a lot of very dedicated firefighters up there and that is what will keep you strong through this time. My heart goes out to all there for your loss. Just a few point in order to even get a job as a firefighter in Florida you must attend the Fire Academy which is now 480 hours, rookies are required to have the ICS classes before even graduating, pretty sad that your Chiefs are just now starting the process.Anyway you men and women keep strong and we will all be praying for a positive outcome.
September 8, 2007 at 11:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Does anyone know the CFD's status with NIMS training?
http://www.scemd.org/Library/NIMS/tra...
September 9, 2007 at 1:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Fiddler...at last check, the NIMS training was the training referenced in the "cheating" article. They are compliant in the fact they took the exams, however, I do not believe much of NIMS is implemented. I'll check specifically with some others to confirm or correct my understanding..
Firemedic, As a local citizen, I thank you for your interest in our FF's cause. If it good to know that it is gaining more national attention. We receive little if any productive support from our City Council members, so I will warn you ahead of time not to expect any response, or if you get one, it might be condemning. PLEASE keep up the pressure. We need all the help we can get.
Any number of us, as civilians, are more than willing to help you coordinate contact if needed. Again, thank you for your interest...these are great men and women in this department, they NEED more brothers and sisters to weigh in!
I also recommend that you visit www.firefighterhourly.com It is a great place to get more information regarding issues with the fire service everywhere including CFD.
Stay safe, and thank you for being a hero!
September 9, 2007 at 1:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ssm (anonymous) says...
Read Councilman Fishburne's letter to the editor today.
September 9, 2007 at 8:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Where is the letter to the editor found?
Can someone post a link?
September 9, 2007 at 8:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ssm (anonymous) says...
http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/s...
September 9, 2007 at 8:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Mr. Fishburne's letter is well written and to the point. He is sincere in his effort to help!
Mr. Shirley, are you paying attention????!!!
September 9, 2007 at 11:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
I am sickened by these Rusty and Riley supporters I had thought that they would finally see the light. Some people like blindly supporting incompetence. I hope if nothing is done maybe they will be the next ones affected by this sorry @$$ chief and his bootlicks.
September 9, 2007 at 11:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
bootlicked: That is EXACTLY why Rusty and other brass should be (a) fired or (b) out on administrative leave. When ffs go into a burning structure, they need to have the trust that the IC (that is Incident Command, for you, Rusty)is looking out for THEM. Many CFD ffs have long ago lost this trust. Fires are of a quick-changing enough nature that we do not need ffs fighting these fires INSIDE wondering if their IC is(1)remembering that they are in there or (2) when it is unsafe and they should be called out. FFs who trust their chiefs do not have these "second" thoughts while inside.
September 9, 2007 at 11:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
A ffs focus should be totally on fighting that fire under the command of an intelligent, calm, and knowledgeable Incident Commander (whether that is the Chief himself, an assistant chief or batchief). All of this is built around "trust"....the trust that your IC is seeing the big picture and looking out for his ffs. This trust was slowly lost through the last decade in the CFD, culminating with the evening of June 18. Trust in a life and death situation is not easily built back up and will certainly not be learned/earned by the Chief, ACs or BCs in a four day course.
September 9, 2007 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
vesta,
PM for you
September 9, 2007 at 12:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
trinitytim: check your pm
September 9, 2007 at 1:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
I hope that leadership will learn what true incident command is about and facilitate more IC training for all ff.
Not knowing who is in a building, who is on the outside to back them, and not stopping for immediate personnel accountability does not constitute incident command.
I am wondering if ID cards (or some type of ID reporting) were used that night?
September 9, 2007 at 2:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
F7: I think that is one part of the whole problem. There was no system used to account for personnel and that is why they did not know exactly who or how many were in the store.
One article I read indicated that someone on scene that night walked around with a legal pad writing down the names of people they COULD account for in order to establish those that they could NOT account for.
September 9, 2007 at 2:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
FiddlerCrab7: From the audio tapes, I would guess the answer to your question is "no", because, after the fire got out of control, the Chief directly asks for Michael French on one ladder truck. The response is that he isn't up there. The Chief then asks if anyone has seen Michael French. Had proper incident command been followed, EVERY ff is issued and wearing an ID or accountability tag on their uniform. Prior to going into any burning building, that tag is left at the Incident Command site, with the Incident Commander. When the ff comes out, he picks up that ID or tag from the IC. In this manner, the IC can look at the tags at ANY GIVEN time and KNOW (1) not only how many ffs are in that structure, but (2) who they are. Easy system, right? Then why wasn't it used???
September 9, 2007 at 3:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
It wasn't used by Chief because he has his own system for doing things, not ones that are recommended by experts, remember?
September 9, 2007 at 3:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
That was my understanding, too, based on the tapes. I heard the confusion about who was where, but I didn't hear any specific mention of ID tags/cards or swift, systematic PAR checks of all responders, etc.
And as far as the IC site, the first IC apparently went in and out of the building. And if the command was passed to the chief, well, the pics show the chief at various places on the scene, including focusing on fire apparatus.
September 9, 2007 at 4:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
I believe in the beginning after the fire, several of the FF's stated there was no accountability...that is what they call the ID tags. I do not believe they were using name tags that night, and I am told they are RARELY used in any fire...
Hopefully some of the CFF will see your questions and confirm or deny it...
September 9, 2007 at 5:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
firemedic3 (anonymous) says...
Accountability is the most important thing on any scene. If there is no accountability then it is an unsafe scene. Our PAR( Personal Accountability Record) tags include our name date of birth social security number and blood type. One is kept with the firefighter and the other is on a ring that is given to the incident commander.Very sad that this was not used. I have already sent this blog session and all of the South Carolina Government contacts to over 1,000 Florida firefighters emails to have them take action as well. CFD firefighters your brothers and sisters in Florida are behind you 100 %, I think a vote of no confidence is in order as well, please let me know what else we can do to assist you in any way and I will get the word circulated, even a rally in front of the Courthouse I would be willing to drive, something has to happen for a positive change. Stay safe and may God Bless you all.
September 9, 2007 at 8:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Any suggestions on how a vote of no confidence would be conducted? Is it done through email? Many ff's are afraid to post or send email using their real names. Is it done by petition? Well, same fear applies. Is it something done through their local union?
Sounds like a great idea, but do you have any suggestions on how it would be done. These men have been ordered not to speak about this tragedy by the chief. That is why they can only speak under a screen name.......
Thanks Firemedic3~!
September 9, 2007 at 9:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Firemedic3,
Thank you for your concern for your brothers here in Charleston. The citizens will gladly welcome suggestions and physical support for marches, letter writing, etc...
Bring on the cavalry!!!
Stay safe guys!
September 9, 2007 at 10:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
There is a public safety committee meeting scheduled for 5pm TOMORROW on the first floor of City Hall...WCSC carried a story about Jimmy Gallant and Henry Fishburne's comments and the intention for them to ask some hard hitting questions.
PLEASE attend this meeting as a show of support for these two Council members and the CFD!!!
September 9, 2007 at 11:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Firemedic3, if your Fla brothers and sisters want to listen for themselves, they can find links to the tapes in this Charleston.net article:
http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/a...
The bulk of the story occurs in the first portion of the first tape. It's sobering how fast the scene unfolds from arrival to mayday with all the factors involved, ranging from chaos, to the truss structure, to the fuel load.
Stay safe, and thank you for your interest.
September 9, 2007 at 11:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
firemedic3 (anonymous) says...
I have listened to all the tapes,I will forward the link though as for the vote of no confidence, depending on how strong your local is it is very easy, this will take people to actually come forward because the union members have to vote on it, but as soon as it is done you have ammo that shows you do not have confidence in your leader, and it will be made public, this has been done several times in Departments here in Florida and in some cases the Chiefs have resigned but in most cases the outcry from the public has ultimately resulted in them being asked to leave, Anyone on the Executive board could also obtain all of the appropriate info regarding this, I have sent emails to most IAFF Local leaders here in Florida and will continue to get the word out, Do you have any idea as to how many of your members are against the Chief right now.You would be surprised as to how many people here in Florida want to help out so keep up the good work and we will continue to do whatever we can.
September 10, 2007 at 12:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
firemedic3, I can't answer your question about the numbers, as I am not on the inside -- I'm a deeply concerned bystander who cares about firefighter and public safety.
You and your colleagues may want to visit http://www.firefighterhourly.com for additional perspectives from the firefighting community. Other posters here might be able to help as well. Take care.
September 10, 2007 at 1 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
firemedic3,
Please check your email.
Thank you.
September 10, 2007 at 1:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
firemedic3...
that is a GREAT idea. Thank you.
BTW... My son is Fl told me today that he has received emails about this, most likely from firemedic3. They are all trying to help the ff's in Charleston.
vesta...
Did you get my PM
nickie...
I never got your latest PM. Try again.
September 10, 2007 at 11:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
TrinityTim,
Sent it again...Let me know
September 10, 2007 at 5:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
I find this very interesting..on the P&C story found: http://charleston.net/news/2007/sep/0... Near the end of the comment section, CindyBalch comments regarding the "gag" order. This is the second time she has commented on this, while she comments about being friends with Eng. Johnson, Garvin and Rusty...Those of you who know the story know the significance of the three of them with regards to this tragedy...
My point is that the last I personally heard, the City, specifically Rusty and the Mayor, have encouraged the men to come forward with their stories...The Mayor says there is nothing to fear if they do...Right? Not that I believe it, but... Ok, with that in mind, why is she insisting there is a "gag" order...Which is it? Gag or no gag? Is the City lying to us, or is Cindy?
You see, IF there is a gag order, that is a serious infringement on the FF's rights to freedom of speech...Since a TRUE gag order comes from a Judge, and to the best of our knowledge, there hasn't been one ordered...I would love for Cindy to explain herself...
Thoughts?
September 10, 2007 at 5:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
I think Cindy has been misled and confused by those she idolizes.
September 10, 2007 at 6:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
You know...some might say it is honorable to protect her friends...people like that need to keep in mind we are trying to protect ours too...
I think there is a real problem with people's perceptions of right and wrong with respect to the way things have been handled from day one until now...I can't understand how people can accept these men's deaths as an accident...it totally baffles me..
September 10, 2007 at 7:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
norv (anonymous) says...
The official portrait of Charleston Mayor Joseph P. Riley Jr. will be unveiled at 6 p.m. today
(9-11-07) following a Charleston City Council meeting in council chambers.
mmmmm.... $$$$$ ? and on 911
September 11, 2007 at 2:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
MichaelsAdvocate...me too....me too...I don't understand why there isn't more public outcry...people should be mad as he!!
Norv, great priorities eh? The last City Council meeting was supposed to address the panel's recommendations...they pushed the issue so far back on the schedule(jumped over it several times to present "atta-boys and girls" and weeded out all of the concerned citizens that had to leave. They addressed it finally around 9pm! and then didn't really address anything at all...
Last night's meeting SHOULD have addressed this issue as I believe it was the FIRST Safety Committee meeting since the fire and STILL they do not directly address the issues...
I have never seen anything like it..
September 11, 2007 at 3:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
firemedic3 (anonymous) says...
Guilt make you avoid the real issues at hand,
Clemson---I recieved your pm, and I actually misprinted, the cards contain the last 4 digits of our ss#,not the entire thing,believe me we arent that dumb,After listening to the tapes again there was absolutely no accountability on the scene, whoever the incident command was had no idea where his people were,at one point I hear him say confirm everyone is out of the building, when actually the building was still full of firefighters, this guy needs to go, and CFD needs a proactive chief to make this the best department ever. I hope some changes happen for you all because unless new admin is appointed I think you all are in for a long haul. There are so many things that can be obtained via federal grant money to improve safety, for example all of our airpacks are hooked up to laptops in the district chiefs vehicle, they are equiped with a gps system and alerts the chief anytime someone stops moving inside the structure, all of this was obtained thru grant money didnt cost the department a dime,all it takes is some research.
September 11, 2007 at 6:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Firemedic3, check you PM
September 11, 2007 at 6:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Firemedic, haven't you heard? Rusty doesn't believe in 21st century technology. The lack of training and technology in the department seems to be alot of the problem! They have thermal imaging cameras, but they don't use them because if they do, it will result in a one on one with the chief, from what has been posted here by FF's.
September 11, 2007 at 6:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
firemedic3 (anonymous) says...
Charleytowngirl---Check you pm,and thank you
September 11, 2007 at 7:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Firemedic,
Can you get more information on those airpacks for me? I want to see about them for all the local departments...
September 11, 2007 at 9:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
firemedic3 (anonymous) says...
I absolutely will, I am on shift tomorrow, and I will get the actual details for you, I believe it is something that can be added to any of the newer packs, but I will confirm and let you know.
September 11, 2007 at 10:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
fantastic, thank you!
September 11, 2007 at 10:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
firemedic3 (anonymous) says...
Nickie here is a link to the current system that we are using, if you know the least about the scba technology it will blow you away, I will dig up more tomorrow and get it to you..http://media.msanet.com/na/usa/sar/scbacomplementaryproducts/ICMTxR/0107-15-ICMTxR.pdf
September 11, 2007 at 11:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
firemedic3 (anonymous) says...
Sorry it didnt come up as an actual link, all you have to do is highlite it and copy and paste it where the address goes.good luck, I am not 100% computer wiz
September 11, 2007 at 11:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
PyroCapt (anonymous) says...
State OSHA attempting to investigate the Sofa Super Store, is by itself a concern. OSHA was established to improve the working conditions of the industrial workers. At a time when big corporations cared more about the quanity of work than the employees that produced their products. OSHA's bread and butter interest is still in these enviroments.As they have already admitted, they have little to no experience when it comes to our world of Firefighting.Were this an accident at Westvaco or Nucor there expertise would be vauluable.
Firefighting tragedies like the one we suffered can only be properly investigated and critiqued by individuals or orgnizations that have a solid background and understanding of the enviroments that we are subjected to, and the potential hazards that may be present during firefighting operations. Such as NFPA,IFSTA,even the ATF.
September 11, 2007 at 11:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Firemedic3,
I got it! Thank you...what an awesome tool!
Pyro Capt, You make a valid point, but if I may pose a question to you...What makes any of the decisions by NFPA, IFSTA or the ATF stick in a local government that chooses to thumb their noses at standards? I mean, with the exception of ATF, the other two organizations, while I think they are tremendously informative and professional groups, they are not mandated...their standards are recommendations based on the best information they have in the fire service today...but without these being a LAW, there is nothing binding the City to implementing them...thus the largest problem this situation is facing...no recourse on those we feel hold the responsibility of this tragedy...
What can NFPA and IFSTA do to press accountability?
Thank you for the great information, just wondering if there is more we can push...
Respectfully
September 12, 2007 at 12:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
PyroCapt (anonymous) says...
Firemedic3:
I am not sure that either IFSTA or NFPA will ever be able to fully mandate their standards.I wish I had the easy answer for that problem.Public education and involvement from the community is our best option for accountability. Informing the people that are active in the political circles and working to gain their interest may be the answer. But I dont trust very many polticians!! So I guess we are back to educating the community.Not the current Stop Dop and Roll stuff, but inform them of the set standards and the short falls that are present in our repective departments.Maybe then they could put pressure on the public officials that so often tell us that the Training Budget and Equipment request are too costly or not needed. I am not trying to dance around your question, I honestly dont have a solve all response for you.
Respectfully
September 12, 2007 at 1:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
firemedic3 (anonymous) says...
Nickie:
there is nothing that binds the Departments from honoring these reccomendations by the NFPA, or OSHA, where the Departments can benefit is, pose this scenario, something goes wrong and a tragedy happens, at least now there can be a real push for answers as to why the Department was not following the reccomendations. I dont think you will find a single Department out there that is 100% compliant to NFPA, but I know in my Department there is a huge effort by our administration to be compliant, unfortunately the biggest downfall to becoming compliant is the taxpayers. You need to be able to convince the taxpayers that this needs to be done, and this is only done by public education, and where the Death of the Charleston 9 is tragic, we all hope something can come out of this in a positive way, especially therre in Charleston.
September 12, 2007 at 11:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
captainscott (anonymous) says...
firemedic3....Some of NFPA standards are recommendations others are laws. OSHA can be federal or state with a minimum standard. These are all laws. The NFPA standards that are not laws can be covered under the general duty clause and are actually views as laws. I know it is very complicated and your comments were general, but we in the fire service need to educate our friends who are trying to help our brother & sisters. States like SC & NC are strong right to work states, anti union, anti labor. They are realizing that there needs to be checks and balances. because of exactly what CFD is experiencing. I appreciate you offering info to help concerned citizens of Charleston.
September 12, 2007 at 2:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Firemedic, PyroCapt, and CaptScott,
Thank you all for expanding on this topic...I am actually spearheading a group to do just what you are explaining...to educate the citizens in order to effectively help the local fire departments, and specifically CFD on the immediate horizon. I have a lot of confusion with NFPA and IFSTA, and would like as much information as you are all willing to give me...where to look, how to interpret the difference between law and recommendation in their respective codes.
I mean, let's face it...the communities need you guys, and until we change the culture of looking at emergency responders as "necessary evils" we will be fighting an uphill battle...
I have been asking the question of what it will take in order to get the national standards implemented as law...I also receive the same response from multiple fire professionals across the country, that it might not be likely that we will ever see them as laws...My mind doesn't always grasp how big government works, but my next thought is to appeal to Federal OSHA to make these national FF standards their own standards, thus making them mandatory to follow, correct?
Just my thoughts, trying to find a way around stubborn politics here that won't bend to push these standards...
Thank you all again, keep the information coming!
Stay safe, gentlemen.
Nickie
September 12, 2007 at 2:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
firemedic3 (anonymous) says...
Captainscott
I was trying to be very general, I actually sit on our NFPA compliance board and I am very educated on all aspects of being compliant I was trying to be brief to give a broad overvue, Florida is also a right to work state fortunately we have a community that works well with our union, and after 9/11 it got even better. Hopefully one day Charleston will be able to enjoy the same.Your Brothers and Sisters in Florida are willing to do whatever it takes to help you out, just say the word.
September 12, 2007 at 6:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
A friend sent me a link about a citizen's group that formed after the 1995 Mary Pang warehouse fire in Seattle. There were 4 LODDs, and the fire apparently had a major impact on Seattle. In its aftermath, the citizens and IAFF raised concerns, and there were various settlements, including one tied to training improvements.
While some issues were different, some were similar. They included pre-fire planning, unknown structural modifications, and fireground awareness.
I don't know how many Seattle firefighters welcomed the involvement of the community group, but I believe the group's actions were a direct result of concerns raised by ff.
For what it's worth, here's info about the SUMMIT organization, which included citizens and rescue personnel. I have no idea if the group or its site are fully active now -- a few links are broken, but the following links work:
http://www.ndcrt.org/SUMMIT/index.html
Some issues they brought up:
http://www.ndcrt.org/SUMMIT/Concerns/...
A letter they wrote:
http://www.ndcrt.org/SUMMIT/Letters/2...
NFPA brief: http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/...
My friend says the Seattle FD and surrounding departments have evolved and are more strategic in how they fight fires. I realize this occurred on the "left" coast, but some of the issues and community concerns seem similar. Hope this helps.
September 12, 2007 at 7:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Fiddlercrab,
Thank you for the information...we are getting ready to begin the non-profit process...
September 12, 2007 at 7:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Fire_Inspector (anonymous) says...
Go to
http://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/establis...
and do a search for Charleston in SC under closed cases.
Thats a LOT of OSHA inspections, and a lot of them were in response to complaints...
September 16, 2007 at 2:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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- Magnolia Gardens offering free dream wedding to contest winner
- Body of missing woman's fiance was found near handgun
- Pinterest: Pinning hopes and dreams
- DAVID SLADE: S.C. offers hybrid car tax credit
- Black women today: Strong. Resilient. Ambitious.
- Ex-Boeing worker claims racism, retaliation in firing
- MCDERMOTT COLUMN: Golf business has risks, rewards
