Fire department report calls for sweeping change; coroner's report released
City officials had access to early draft, did 'fine-tuning' before release
City officials had access to early draft, did 'fine-tuning' before release
Experts urge overhaul of tactics, leadership, training, equipment
The debate over problems within the Charleston Fire Department has raged for months, but critics and supporters alike agreed Wednesday that an expert report offers a detailed and sweeping road map for improvement.
Bringing the tradition-bound fire department up to accepted national firefighting practices will likely be time-consuming, expensive and require fundamental shifts in attitudes toward safety, training and leadership.
The city hired the six-member independent panel in August to recommend improvements in the wake of the June 18 Sofa Super Store blaze that killed nine of the department's firefighters.
The resulting 38-page report is a manifesto for change. While short on direct criticism of the fire department and its leaders, the report calls for a top-to-bottom overhaul of tactics, leadership, training and equipment. It paints a stark picture of an insular department where leaders stifle dissent, rely on outdated methods and lack sufficient training and education.
The Post and Courier
Thomas and Charleston Mayor Joe Riley comment in October 2007 on the fire report to be conducted by a panel of experts.
The department's culture does not sufficiently emphasize safety and concentrates too much authority in the chief's office, the report said.
Without referring to Fire Chief Rusty Thomas or any department leaders by name, the report makes it clear that commanders do not place enough emphasis on training or keeping pace with current firefighting tactics and practices.
Thomas said he was excited about the report and that it signalled "a new era." Mayor Joe Riley called the report a "management analysis" that provides the city with "an opportunity and a responsibility to allow our excellent fire department to move to a new level of achievement."
The panel's recommendations touch on virtually every area of the department's management, organization and procedures and raise serious questions about the extent to which city firefighters were prepared and equipped to handle the fatal fire.
Harold Schaitberger, president of the world's largest firefighter organization, the International Association of Fire Fighters, said Riley's characterization of the report as a management review "minimizes the significance of the June 18 tragedy, the loss of nine dedicated lives, and the need for immediate and real change." He said the report demonstrates the need for new leadership at the fire department.
On the Web
"This is a landmark report that highlights hundreds of problems and failures in a fire department whose policies and procedures contributed significantly to the deaths of nine firefighters," Schaitberger said.
While panel members say their report was written as though the sofa store fire never occurred, several of the panel's recommendations deal with issues that firefighters and experts from around the country have said played a role in the tragedy.
The panel has yet to tackle the specifics of the sofa store blaze — that's planned for phase two — but its report offers a detailed snapshot of the inner workings of the department at the time of the fire.
Gordon Routley, a former Louisiana fire chief who heads the panel, said the project was a massive undertaking in which the group basically conducted six months of work in six weeks' time.
"The part that is most surprising to us is the enthusiasm in accepting it," he said. In past consulting jobs, clients often "come back and say, 'Do we have to do that,' or 'Is that essential?' In this case, the client has said, 'You tell us what to do and we will get it done.' "
Panel members noted that the report is "directed toward identifying areas of concern."
What happened?
A six-member team of experts on Wednesday released a 38-page analysis of the Charleston Fire Department that calls for an overhaul of tactics, equipment, management and culture. City officials hired the panel in the wake of the June 18 blaze at Sofa Super Store that killed nine firefighters.
What are the recommendations?
The panel recommended nearly 200 changes, including: increasing manpower by about 15 percent, providing more training and education to firefighters, replacing or upgrading protective gear, adopting a culture that stresses the importance of safety, spreading leadership responsibilities among commanders, encouraging rank-and file firefighters to participate in decision-making, buying larger hose lines and establishing a more organized approach to responding to fires.
What comes next?
In the coming months, the panel will gather information and reports from various federal, state and local investigations into the sofa store fire and compile that information into one comprehensive report. Finally, the team will draft a long-range strategic plan that will chart a course for the fire department.
City firefighters lack some basic equipment and conveniences to perform their jobs, from inadequate flashlights and hazardous work uniforms to worn out protective gear, outdated air tanks and firetrucks without air conditioning, the report said.
Other items won't cost a dime but are likely to be contentious, such as a recommendation that Thomas open a dialogue with "local organizations that represent the interests of firefighters." The primary organization that does that is the local firefighters union. The two sides have long had a prickly relationship, and some union members have called for Thomas' ouster in the wake of the fatal blaze.
Roger Yow, president of the Charleston Firefighters Association, said the union would accept an offer to meet, which "has been a long time coming."
In all, the panel's report contains nearly 200 recommendations, organized by subject area and priority. Among the issues identified as top priorities that should be implemented immediately or as soon as possible:
--Increase manpower by 15 percent to ensure that firetrucks have enough firefighters aboard to battle blazes safely and effectively.
--Provide more training and education throughout the fire department.
--Replace or upgrade a hodgepodge of protective gear that doesn't meet current firefighting standards.
--Ban dangerous tactics at fire scenes and adopt a culture in which "safety must become a primary consideration for all fire department activities."
--Spread leadership among department commanders and encourage rank-and-file firefighters to participate in decision-making and feel free to offer critical opinions.
--Establish an organized approach for responding to fires, based on severity.
--Upgrade equipment, such as buying larger supply lines and attack hoses that will allow firefighters to dump more water on a fire more quickly.
In coming years, the panel recommended, the department should:
--Hold public forums that allow residents to share their perceptions and expectations regarding the fire department.
--Update firefighting manuals and textbooks at all city fire stations.
--Purchase a simulator to educate firefighters about the warning signs of flashover, a process in which super-heated contents or structures spontaneously ignite.
--Create a multi-acre, state-of-the-art training facility and invite area departments to participate as part of a regional training program.
--Seek national accreditation through the Center for Public Safety Excellence, a process that could take years.
In our special section with photos, videos, interactives, donation information and every story written about the tragedy.
Several of the panel's other recommendations are tied to guidelines issued by the National Fire Protection Association, a fire-prevention organization on whose reports many firefighting standards are based.
Some of these standards were cited in the recent violations issued against the city by the state office of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration.
Riley and attorneys representing the city have argued that the city can't be held responsible for alleged violations that are based on standards that have not been adopted into state law.
The report also delves into fire protection issues in other city departments. For example, the panel recommends that the city's building inspectors work more closely with the fire department to check existing structures' fire code violations. The panel's report recommends that the fire department assign a liaison to coordinate with city building inspectors to reduce the risk of fires before firefighters have to respond.
City Councilman Henry Fishburne said the report was another indication of the "major problems" that have existed in the fire department. "This all clearly indicates that the mayor's assertion is incorrect. We do not have the best fire department or the best fire chief."
Jay Lowry, a former Charleston firefighter who has been chronicling the sofa store fire in his Internet blog, Firefighter Hourly, called the report "exhaustive," touching "every single aspect in the fire department."
"It's basically tearing down the fire department and rebuilding it," he said. "I don't understand how any department can have a report come in that recommends nearly 200 changes and yet contend that this is the best-led fire department in the country."
Riley and Thomas presented the recommendations to about one-third of the city's 240 firefighters Wednesday morning, and will brief the remainder of the department in the coming days.
Charleston firefighter Bill Haigler attended the meeting and said he is "very optimistic" that the recommendations will lead to much-needed improvements if all of them are adopted in a timely fashion. "We take them very seriously and think that the recommendations will make our jobs safer and easier."
Riley said the report will help the department soar to new heights. Asked what he thinks the report says about the state of the fire department before the sofa store fire, Riley said: "To me it says that we have a very good fire department. We were meeting standards and requirements but there are opportunities for the achievement of national-best practices."
Two of Riley's three opponents in the upcoming election disagreed with the mayor's assessment. Candidate Marc Knapp called the panel's report "scathing" and said it begs the question as to why all these improvements weren't done sooner, before nine men died. Candidate William Dudley Gregorie said the report shows that the tradition-bound fire department has been "holding the future hostage with the past."
Candidate Omar Brown did not return a call seeking comment.
Video
Riley/Thomas Press Conference
Mayor Joe Riley announces the findings of the six-member independent panel of experts hired to recommend improvements in the wake of the Sofa Super Store blaze
Thomas said he is looking forward to having more help and advice on administrative and personnel issues. He conceded that the recommendations for a more open and democratic decision-making process differ from his hands-on management style. But he said he is ready for the change. "It's an amazing way for Rusty Thomas to look at it."
City Councilwoman Anne Frances Bleecker, whose district includes the sofa store ruins, praised the panel for its work and hailed Charleston's response to a tragedy as honoring "the memory of the brave individuals who perished that night."
Reach Ron Menchaca at rmenchaca@postandcourier.com or 937-5724. Reach Glenn Smith at gsmith@postandcourier.com or 937-5556.
E-mail this story
Printer-friendly version
Comments
yeahright (anonymous) says...
How can RT be "excited" about a report that screams utter incompetence? I'm sick to death of this whole friggin charade. It gets more surreal every day.
October 18, 2007 at 1:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SUNTANNED (anonymous) says...
UNBELIEVABLE'''''
October 18, 2007 at 3:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hotrod2007 (anonymous) says...
Business as usual ...
Asked what he thinks the report says about the state of the fire department before the sofa store fire, Riley said: "To me it says that we have a very good fire department. We were meeting standards and requirements but there are opportunities for the achievement of national-best practices."
ONLY in Charleston, SC ...
October 18, 2007 at 4:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
The only thing left for the city of charleston mayor, joseph p. riley, jr. and his lapdog fire chief rusty, is to "RESIGN IMMEDIATELY".
October 18, 2007 at 5:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
>>> the_white_owl -> after seeing what is in the report, issued today, a person would have to be a real idiot or a jackass to try to defend Riley or Rusty now. <<<
The only thing left for the city of charleston mayor, joseph p. riley, jr. and his lapdog fire chief rusty, is to "RESIGN IMMEDIATELY".
October 18, 2007 at 5:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mac0cm4 (anonymous) says...
I am curious as to what standards and requirements that Riley thought his FD was actually attaining before the fire, since the report seems to differ in opinion in that matter.
And in case any one didn't know - Rusty had the A/C removed from nearly all the new trucks the city purchased (at expense, since they nearly always come with one (FREE!)). Yeah, no A/C in SC. Those summer fires must suck. Good one Rusty. Glad to see it noted in the report.
October 18, 2007 at 7:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mspm47 (anonymous) says...
this is the other problem. WE, the taxpayer is paying for this. We have to pay for these studies, we have to pay for the new equipment, we have to pay for the training and we will have to pay for the upcoming lawsuits.
There is already talk about Joe raising taxes.
Enough is enough people.
GO JOE GO...and take Rusty with you.
October 18, 2007 at 8:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bill14773 (anonymous) says...
Excited?? I'm excited an election is just around the corner. Such incompentence must be removed. Can any rationale person justify keeping RT.
October 18, 2007 at 8:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MoeLarryCurly (anonymous) says...
At lest the three stooges new they were clowns. How can you trust a mayor who calls his firefighters liars? Rusty had his chance, why did it take nine men to die for him to wake up and realize things had to change? How many jobs allow the leader who is found to be so neglect continue to try and correct the mistakes he made? How many more must die before he get's it right? JOE MUST GO AND SO SHOULD RUSTY AND ROBBIE! LET'S CALL A CLOWN A CLOWN! 200 changes! Wow! Unbelievable!
October 18, 2007 at 9:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
firedog (anonymous) says...
can someine tell me how they got a class i ISO rating if training and equipment is so bad. maybe someone needs to look into the ISO inspection
October 18, 2007 at 9:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Providing protection against heat- and cold-stress is important on the fireground and at training. Below are links that discuss both the Fire Protection Association and United States Fire Administration guidance on fire rehab.
The USFA document below shows that caution should be taken when temperatures exceed 80 degrees, and extreme caution when temperatures exceed 90 degrees. We know how often this happens in Charleston.
http://www.firerescue1.com/firerehab/...
http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/downloads/pdf...
October 18, 2007 at 9:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
icbmman (anonymous) says...
How many of you think that the mayor and the chief will actually use this report to implement sweeping changes? I believe they'll use it as a doorstop, considering their responses. And, sorry Chief, but removing A/C units in new fire trucks is just stupid, especially in any community south of Virginia. A directive like that demonstrates your lack of concern and compassion for your firefighters.
October 18, 2007 at 9:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Winker (anonymous) says...
Do all of you really think you can beat Joe in an election, you are wasting your time.. Joe is going to continue to do what ever he wants and there is nothing we can do about it.
Sorry to be the one to break the bad news but Charleston is not a Democracy, the sheep here do what they are told and vote for who they are told to vote for.
October 18, 2007 at 9:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mggoose2000 (anonymous) says...
Anyone that read any of my previous comments remembers that I have been proposing that we should wait to pass judgement until all the reports were in; They're in!
Sorry Mayor and RT, but you either lead, follow or get out of the way. If you can't lead and you won't follow, then you gotta go!
Nine couragous men lost their lives doing their jobs without proper training or equipment and continuing to practice outdated procedures and policies while fighting fires is purely insane. Lead, follow or get out of the way!
October 18, 2007 at 9:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
forester (anonymous) says...
It is time for Joe and Rusty to graciously retire! They are hanging on to power with the tenacity of a bulldog. What do they think "sweeping change" and "fundamental shifts in training, safety and leadership" mean? Time to GO, Rusty and Joe.
October 18, 2007 at 9:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
whycantitbebetterhere (anonymous) says...
In this area/state, politicians gripe all the time about not wanting anyone who works for government to make more than $20,000/yr. So, they keep budgets low, won't increase taxes,and never actually find out what is needed, and scream all the time that there is waste in government, and taxes could be lower if everyone wasn't wasting money. This report clearly shows that not enough was spent to have fully qualified people running the department, equipment was inadequate, training was inadequate, and ooooh guess what - City council is constantly making sure you don't have a tax increase. WELL OBVIOUSLY IT WAS NEEDED - AND ALL OF THE ANTI-TAX IDIOTS KILLED THOSE FIREMEN! It is time for proper management, proper spending and taxation, proper decisions from elected City Council members - ask some damn questions - visit the departments. If you have half a brain you can look at a budget or operation and be able to tell if you are spending enough/have good people. The "government is spending too much and wasting" brainwashing that goes on around here is pitiful and ignorant. Top notch people do not move here and work in government, because it does not pay well, and you can't get any support for projects that are needed.
October 18, 2007 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Bayflite2medic (anonymous) says...
wasn't there a link on the P&C yesterday to view the entire report? Did they remove it?
October 18, 2007 at 9:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
captivated (anonymous) says...
Winker-As unfortunate as it sounds, I would have to agree with you that King Joe will be right where he is next year this time. He will still be leading us sheep around by the nose with lies and deceptions and his boy untrusty Rusty will still be running the CFD into the ground (literally!). The aristocracy will he happy, gentrification will continue and King Street from Morrison to Line street will never get repaved. ALL HAIL KING JOE! Please go tell all your neighbors how and where to vote so this madness can end!
October 18, 2007 at 9:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WalkMan (anonymous) says...
200 years of tradition unimpeded by progress.
October 18, 2007 at 10:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
RPSERV (anonymous) says...
I think that it is important to rememember that as tragic as the SSS fire was, it is relatively unimportant (politically) to the mayor's powerbase. The peninsula of charleston (particularly SOB) still controls the city. That is the area that receives most of the city's attention, and, as long as they are happy the mayor, his staff, and council are safe. If you don't believe this, just wait and see the election results.
Although the actions of the chief are indefensible, imagine the reception he would have gotten from the mayor and council if he had approached them sometime before the SSS fire asking for millions of dollars to improve the department. He probably would now be retired.
October 18, 2007 at 10:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nitelite (anonymous) says...
icbmann,
we normally don't agree but today we do!
October 18, 2007 at 10:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
Bay
Yes there was a link to the report yesterday, but can not find it today - it was in Adobe format and I was not able to get the link to work - probably a problem with my computer. The link can be found on the counton2.com site, again I can not access it.
October 18, 2007 at 10:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
greener1 (anonymous) says...
WHO CARES! Really, these are problems that exist in probably every department and unfortunately it happened, and happened here. I bet you anything that you can go anywhere else and find the same results. It's the government people, their worried about saving face, not lives!
October 18, 2007 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bruce (anonymous) says...
If the mayor IS reelected then the people who put him back in should share in the payments to the ff families once all the sh_t storm of law suits hits town!
My God this is a MAJOR scandal. Where is the accountability, 9 of your own people died using 1960 standards !
Your mayor still doesn't get it ot just won't admit that his hand picked, good old boy chief is no professional Fire Chief by any standard.
What is his hold on you people?
October 18, 2007 at 10:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Winker (anonymous) says...
To beat Joe, opponents really need to look into his campaign finances,land deals and who is profiting off them. These are the issues the Mayors office does not want you to see or talk about.
It is amazing how South Carolina is always considered a Republican state, but a Democrat can continue to win election after election. How can this be, Where is the RNC propaganda machine when you need it?
Also, During the last Mayoral election I specifically remember Joe saying that would be his last. Where are those quotes or file footage?
October 18, 2007 at 10:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
bruce
Just received an E mail from the reelect Joe folks, which I deleted unread. My point is that Joe has a very powerful and well funded politicial base and will be very hard to beat. Everyone who hopes to do business with the city of Charleston gives him money and vote for him. It is up to the rank and file to vote him out and unfortunately most of them do not read these comments - you all need to talk it up.
October 18, 2007 at 10:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
How qualified was joseph p. riley, on his first day in office as mayor of the city of charleston.
Sorry, trying to use straw dogs to distract, will no longer work.
The only solution to the problem, created by riley and rusty, is for both to leave office. NOW.
October 18, 2007 at 10:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bruce (anonymous) says...
If this political machine of riley is put back in office what is the political advantage of keeping on this guy (thomas)who kept the fd stuck in a 1960 time warp,which resulted,so far,in 9 deaths & 200 problem area's found in his fine class 1 ISO fire dept.What a joke ISO must be.
I'm 400 miles away, I've got no horse in this race,but I do know whats right.This whole political football in Charleston SMELLS.
October 18, 2007 at 11:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bhippey (anonymous) says...
I'm sooooooooo sick and tired of hearing about this. Atleast this article isn't talking about the families getting more money.
October 18, 2007 at 11:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
bruce
If Joe gets reelected, it is my theory that he will ease Rusty out to pasture. My hope is that the voters will ease both of them out to pasture on election day - I am going to do my part.
October 18, 2007 at 11:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Granmomma (anonymous) says...
I just read the report . The City of Charleston should be ashamed of all the lackings of your Fire Dept . Anyone from the budget people , mayor , chief and whoever else is responsible for this fire dept. being so far behind in so many phases is totally unacceptable in today's enviroment . Charleston certainly can afford and MUST bring it's department up to date It can't afford not to either It sounds like the "perfect" storm brought all this out in the open . Protect the other firefighter's before you have a repeat .
October 18, 2007 at 11:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Send joe an email, he says he wants to hear from you.
http://www.rileyformayor.com/ask-joe....
October 18, 2007 at 11:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
ex
I have been working on my message for about 15 seconds and here is it.
"Dear Joe
Do the honorable thing and withdraw from the mayors race.
Concerned Voter"
October 18, 2007 at 12:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
GBob (anonymous) says...
Nine brave firefighters are dead without so much as a slap on the wrist for those in responsible charge on the evenng of June 18th. Nonetheless, Riley would lock a tourist up for smoking in a resturant downtown. Where's the justice?
Gregory may not be the best of alternatives, but anyone is better now, even if it's just four years.
Please, just one person step forward and defend Riley and Rusty now without making themselves a "world-class" hypocrite.
October 18, 2007 at 12:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
mggoose2000,
Welcome to the other side!
Please support the firemen in the CFD and if you live in Charleston, go to the polls and vote for someone besides Riley!
October 18, 2007 at 12:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
icbmman (anonymous) says...
Nitelite, there's always a time when we can be united! :) I just wish there was a viable candidate that I could fully support to get Riley and his ilk out of office. Riley does need to go, along with Thomas, but I just wish there was a great alternative.
October 18, 2007 at 12:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
featherbrained (anonymous) says...
To heck with 6 months or even years down the road. I want to know WHAT ARE THEY GOING TO DO DIFFERENTLY NOW? What if, God forbid, we had another fire tonight like the SSS? Can you share your "excitement" on this one Joe and Rusty? Are you so "excited" that you have already implemented some seriously necessary changes? You both should be forced to stand and stare at the ashes of the sss until you arrive at an immediate solution. One that will protect our own tonight, tomorrow and the next day...as well as months and years down the road. There are nine who had no other option. You did not protect them and you did not respect them (until after it was too late), are you treating the others any differently now that you better understand the price(s) that they pay to work for you? You did not do what you were elected to do, either of you. Is this how you take care of the people who elected you, the same way you take care of the people who work for you? If you are so ignorant that you need to HIRE people to tell you what changes to make, then you shouldn't be in the position you are in.
October 18, 2007 at 1:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Bayflite2medic (anonymous) says...
PalmettoBlonde: I did not see that link this morning. I read the report off of the channel 2 website. I think they had taken the link off this morning for some reason. But, thank you!
The report from the commission is a good place to start,,, seems like it would be like winning the lottery for you guys up there!
No A/C in the trucks?????? Why???? I remember Charleston summers, and they are as bad as they are down here. Does anyone know the true reason the units were removed?
October 18, 2007 at 1:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sleeper04 (anonymous) says...
Time for a change, actually it is long overdue. There is only one candidate that is qualified to run this city today.He has a better attendance record at city council that anyone there including the mayor People just need to look at the candidates and go vote. You know you can go vote absentee today at the voter registration headquarters just off Leeds Ave on Headquarters Road. Make a difference, go vote. Voter registration phone number is 744-8683.
October 18, 2007 at 1:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
dougel17 (anonymous) says...
Publishing the coroner's report is a tasteless move which was done with no-one's best interest in mind, especially the late heroes, their families, and their brothers at the CFD who are still grieving after the body recoveries.
October 18, 2007 at 1:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Bayflite2medic (anonymous) says...
Did the P&C actually publish the coroner's report? I only see the review panel's report.
October 18, 2007 at 2 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
I understand that all fire trucks come standard with air conditioning. To have it removed at the time of purchase costs the fire department/city/tax payers about $4,000. Let's see, that amount could purchase at least three sets of good turn out gear. You have to remember that there wasn't such a thing as air conditioning back "when time wuz time."
October 18, 2007 at 2:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WalkMan (anonymous) says...
Harpo made one comment that I think we would all benefit from hearing again and again and again. (I'm sure many know this but it can often go to the back of our minds).....
Implementing all these recommendations (over 200 in all with more on the way in the next phase) only brings this department up to "acceptable" standards nationally.
October 18, 2007 at 3:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Bayflite2medic (anonymous) says...
The recommendations are all good. Now just find the funds!
October 18, 2007 at 3:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WalkMan (anonymous) says...
Charleston Firefighters have complained for years; area fire departments have complained for years; the local union has complained and filed law suits for years. Now Fire House Magazine writers are condemning; Fire Engineer Magazine articles are condemning; Fire Chief Magazines are condemning; The International Firefighters Association are condemning; and Charleston's own handpicked panel of experts are condemning and still there are vast groups of people that aren't listening. What has to happen do 10 firefighters have to die?
http://cms.firehouse.com/content/arti...
October 18, 2007 at 4:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WalkMan (anonymous) says...
Oh yeah, OSHA has also been on the list who has condemned and I promise NIOSH will soon be doing so soon.
October 18, 2007 at 4:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
This could be the new poster for Rusty.
http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k30...
October 18, 2007 at 4:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MooMoo (anonymous) says...
I've lived here my whole life, and am all too familiar with the "old line" Charleston attitude. The leadership of the fire departent is steeped in it. Resist change, live in denial, do things the way they've aleays been done just because they've always been done that way, etc. All these years while Riley is pouring money into unnecessary extravagances like that aquarium, our firefighters cannot get decent equipment! Makes my blood boil.
I am positively shaking with anger at the incompetence of leadership and basic safety considerations that cost these nine brave heroic souls their lives.
If you all think the sh** flew before, just wait. That roar in the distance is the sound of the lawsuits a comin'!
I wish I could say this is the dawn of a new day. But I've lived here too long. I know the mindset, power, and social dynamics too well. Without new leadership, it won't happen.
October 18, 2007 at 4:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Jim: Priceless and totally fitting for the "Chief".
October 18, 2007 at 5:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cocksfan (anonymous) says...
The post and courier will publish the coroner's report in the morning and that is a slap in the face and a kick in the a** to the families and the fire fighters of the CFD. What will be next showing pictures, i guess if it sells there rag of a paper or gets to watch channel 5. I'm really appauled at Harve Jacobs for reporting it on the 4:00 news... I lost some serious respect for him.
I would like to extend an apoligy to all the families and firefighters for the ignoriance of the low county reports that did or are covering this story
October 18, 2007 at 5:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Cocksfan...I have to agree with you...reports like this don't have any business on front page news...it is poor taste and does not need to be addressed in that fashion to get their points across...
My thoughts are with the families as well...
October 18, 2007 at 5:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
To the editor of the P&C:
PLEASE do not publish the coroner's reports if that is truly what is planned. It really is in poor taste and if someone needs to fulfill a sick need to see them, let them request a copy on their own. These should not be made available to the public via your newspaper.
We already know 9 men died and know we are learning more about WHY they died. Do we really need the details?!?
October 18, 2007 at 6:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
I agree that detailed autopsy reports should not be published, if this is in the works. I believe in openness of the government and the media, and I commend you on your in-depth reporting, but the stress is super high for firefighters and families.
I think it's appropriate that you obtained the reports, so that you can serve as the eyes and ears for any critical information. If there are facts that you believe the public should know, then perhaps report them in very general terms without specific names. Just please keep in mind the sensitivity of the situation, as I hope that you will.
October 18, 2007 at 7:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
charley
The details included in the left side insert of this article are too much and should not have been included here or elsewhere. I hope the P&C does not go any further.
October 18, 2007 at 7:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
Fid
Well said.
October 18, 2007 at 7:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
The P&C again misreports key FACTs.
P&C: ":the panel's report contains nearly 200 recommendations, :"
FACT: The report contains approximately 98 primary recommendations and not all of those apply to the CFD. Seems the P&C erred by counting the sub-bullets under each actual recommendation; these items are mainly rhetorical or explanatory information.
The recommendations are prioritized as A, B or C "A" being the near-term, most important items. Less than half of the 98 recommendations, approximately 43%, (42 items) are category "A" for the CFD; 2% are category "A" for the City.
Over one-half of the recommendations, approximately 55%, are category B or C - about 22% and 3% are category B for the CFD and the City respectively; approximately 27% and 3% are category C for the CFD and the City respectively.
Other P&C inaccuracies come under "Among the issues identified as top priorities:"
P&C: Increase manpower by 15 percent to ensure that fire trucks have enough firefighters aboard to battle blazes safely and effectively. FACT: the increase is to meet an NFPA 1710 standard there is no indication in the report that fewer firemen cannot battle blazes safely/effectively depending on the fire environment.
P&C: Provide more training and education throughout the fire department. FACT: The actual recommendation is for the CFD to "assess department-wide training needs" and provide training, as needed, in specific areas such as incident command and operational safety procedures.
P&C: Replace or upgrade a hodgepodge of protective gear that doesn't meet current firefighting standards. FACT: There is no such "A" recommendation. There is a recommendation to develop specifications for protective clothing by the end of 2007; consideration should be given to replace PPC that is worn/damaged that does not meet NFPA standards or is over 7 years old.
P&C: Spread leadership among department commanders and encourage rank-and-file firefighters to participate in decision-making and feel free to offer critical opinions. FACT: recommends rank-and-file firemen participate in the "decision-making process," not in actual "decision-making," a management responsibility. There is also a distinction between offering "critical opinions" versus "contributing differing opinions, constructive ideas and/or suggestions."
P&C: Establish an organized approach for responding to fires, based on severity. FACT: There is no such "A" recommendation. There is an "A" recommendation for standard levels of response from "dispatch," based on incident severity.
P&C: Upgrade equipment, such as buying larger supply lines and attack hoses that will allow firefighters to dump more water on a fire more quickly. FACT: There is no recommendation to buy larger attack hoses. There is a recommendation to "consider upgrading from 1 ½" to 1 ¾" attack hoses.
October 18, 2007 at 7:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
The P&C again misreports key FACTs.
P&C: ": guidelines issued by the National Fire Protection Association, : Some of these standards were cited in the recent violations issued against the city by the state office of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration.
FACT: The SC OSHA report regarding the SSS did not cite any specific NFPA standards.
October 18, 2007 at 7:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
rj
Thanks for your analysis, I guess.
In a post sometime back, I reported the results of my tour of my local fire station (ie. no new uniforms, no LDH and no updated preplan etc). Has anyone checked out their fire station lately to see if any of the reported changes have come your way?
October 18, 2007 at 8:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WalkMan (anonymous) says...
RJHOPP;
Instead of trying to pick apart everyone else's words why don't you give YOUR reasoning for supporting Mayor Riley and Chief Thomas. Every post I read from you is nothing more than your nitpicking at all the other comments. I hate to tell you but even your said "98 primary recommendations" is still NINETY-EIGHT. NINETY-EIGHT primary things that need to be changed. NINETY-EIGHT Hopp!!! Are you listening!!!!!
Charleston Firefighters have complained for years; area fire departments have complained for years; the local union has complained and filed law suits for years. Now Fire House Magazine writers are condemning; Fire Engineer Magazine articles are condemning; Fire Chief Magazines are condemning; The International Firefighters Association are condemning; OSHA has condemned; and Charleston's own handpicked panel of experts are condemning. NIOSH, NIST, NFPA and others have reports that are still to come and I assure you they will be right in line. And yet you want to pick apart what everyone else SAYS. You're listening with your mouth instead of your ears!! Do you even give a damn about the issues; or is it the thrill of the debate? What has to happen, do 10 firefighters have to die for you to listen?
And I'll say this part again too: After the recommendations are implemented, it will only bring this department up to "acceptable" standards nationally.
I find it hard to have a battle of wits with half-armed people. Give YOUR reasoning instead of your "take" on others reasoning.
October 18, 2007 at 8:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
You know, some people just love to hear themselves talk....I guess some people just like to write and THINK that other people are reading their comments and hanging on every word they write.
It's interesting to me that the FEW supporters of the chief or mayor find it necessary to write these long winded epistles that they really think people are going to read.
Walkman, you might as well give it up. It's like arguing with a fence post. Nothing will ever change the mindset of some of the people here. No need to anyway. Rusty and Joe need at least a few supporters and more power to them.
RJ, I would like to say to you specifically, you claim to be a family member of a survivor of one of the Charleston 9.....what exactly does that mean? Was one of your relatives one of the 9 who died? If I want to take your description literally, I could also call myself a family member of one of the survivors of the Charleston 9. I am related to a CFD member that was NOT killed that tragic night, so that would make him a survivor would it not? Just curious because you are so literal in YOUR translation of every story and every comment that is written.
October 18, 2007 at 8:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Ihatelosers (anonymous) says...
All of the cfd's fire apparatus is custom ordered, from the engine, frame, steering box to the pump and tank. The factory has never looked at the cfd's specs then installed an ac unit to be removed later.
October 18, 2007 at 8:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FIRSTDUE (anonymous) says...
RT doesn't have the classes, to work as a firefighter at any fd, why is he going to be in charge of the changes?
October 18, 2007 at 8:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
maybe he was the focus of what the panel referred to when they suggested a review of department wide training needs
October 18, 2007 at 9:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BattChiefNCFD (anonymous) says...
rj, I have not taken the time to compare the report against your comments, but I can definitely speak to your comment:
"P&C: Increase manpower by 15 percent to ensure that fire trucks have enough firefighters aboard to battle blazes safely and effectively. FACT: the increase is to meet an NFPA 1710 standard there is no indication in the report that fewer firemen cannot battle blazes safely/effectively depending on the fire environment."
Are you a firefighter, and if you are, your statement is even more retarded than it would be if you were not a firefighter. The recommendation indeed references NFPA 1710, because it has been proven through studies, as well as through several years of study by the committee that brought about NFPA 1710 (which by the way was chaired by Alan Brunacinni) that it is a FACT the more personnel you have on scene to begin firefighting operations, the better the out-come will be. This will lead to a safer more efficient fire ground.
The facts are plain and simple. In too many instances firefighters have lost their lives because there was not enough firefighter's on-scene to properly conduct suppression activities. The fewer firefighters on scene, the fewer personnel you have to carry out assignments. This ABSOLUTELY was one of the causes that lead to the deaths of the 9 Brothers. For too many years staffing in fire departments across the U.S. have been cut in order for the bean counters to save a buck; prevent taxes from being raised, and to cut costs in order to re-direct funds to pet projects that the city leaders promote as "Quality of Life" issues. Horse Sh*it!!!!!!! I'm sick of hearing all this Bull Sh*t. The problem has always been sorry a** government officials and citizens who aren't properly informed of the real dangers that face them within their respective cities. The really sad part is we are the biggest contributor's because we WILL NOT LET SOMEONE'S PROPERTY BURN. So what do we do, we KILL ourselves trying to do more with less each and every day. If you haven't noticed, "You ain't in Kansas anymore Dorothy" the fire service has expanded exponentially over the past 20 years. The duties that cities and citizens expect us to provide are overwhelming, yet we still are expected to provide the services, remain in a ready state at all times (which means we must be trained to face any hazard we come against), yet we continue to operate UNDER-STAFFED AND UNDER-FUNDED. Dude, you better wake up and smell the coffee. I don't usually get so emotional over these issues, but I've just about reached my limit in this situation, and no I don't mind continuing this conversation in this or any other forum of your choosing. The gloves are off, LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tony Varella
October 18, 2007 at 9:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
captainscott (anonymous) says...
rjahopp, I don't understand what your points prove to help....you said a while back to wait on the reports. Well here is one and just wait for this committe reports on the SSS fire. That will be specific and very damning. The NOISH report will be very critical also. Your comments are very well thought out but I have not seen how you defend the logic that has been existing. Others say why didn't firefighter or the union stand up. They did over and over again, only to fall on deaf ears. I have remained rather generic in my responses on this sight. I can tell you that I have the training, knowledge, and experience and have participated in investigation as large as the SSS fire. EVERYTHING that is coming out has been stated over and over again from other firefighter fatalities. Cities and mayor and Chief better wakes up and smell the coffee......The only way to make the change is to force it. MONEY & CRIMINAL charges. My question to you how will you support the necessary change and the recommendations from this committee and the ones to come??? Thanks
October 18, 2007 at 9:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Nice Chief...welcome back to the forum!
October 18, 2007 at 9:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
rj, These 6 men are consultants. Their job was to find deficiencies and recommend changes. It was/is not their job to demand changes. All the points that were made were what they determined, as experts, were deficiencies in the CFD and the city as it pertains to the CFD. Consultants usually submit their reports to te people that hired them in the hope that those leaders would know how to interpret them and impliment the recommended changes. In this case though, it seems as though they were in error in thinking that Riley/Thomas knew how to interpret the report and what they were trying to accomplish.
October 18, 2007 at 9:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Patrick (anonymous) says...
BattChiefNCFD has got guts and he's got class. God bless 'em.
October 18, 2007 at 9:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
Ihatelosers, Most fire engines and ladders are "custom". This is a finite number of options such as tank size, type of pump, and configuration of the cab and box. This is much in the way of you going to your Ford dealer and ordering a car from the factory. Pierce Mfg offers thier custom pumpers on "rolling chassis" from truck mfrs such as Freightliner and Kenworth. The Chassis's are complete with engines, drive trains, and all the other standard accessories such as a/t, power steering, a/c, etc. To de-select a/c would entail Pierce to "custom" order a chassis from those mfrs thus negating the quantity discount that was negotiated for that particular chassis or to take the time to take these components off.
October 18, 2007 at 9:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
Well said BattChiefNCFD. Kudos
October 18, 2007 at 9:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
WalkMan,
My Comments above have not referenced any other Comments to this article, whether I agree with them or not. They only address the P&C article.
People nationwide read these articles and Comments and, in part, due to reporting inaccuracies, sometimes seem to form unjustified, negative opinions about Charleston, the CFD, and its firemen, and the SSS incident. Many of them have posted Comments on this web site.
Why not accurately report the facts and identify the real issues, letting the chips fall where they may?
It seems myopic for the fire industry media and external organizations to condemn the CFD in the absence of the final reports from ATF-SLED-CPD, NIOSH, NIST, SC OSHA, USFA, NFPA, etc. My interest is in the facts regarding the SSS and the role of the CFD which, unfortunately, cannot be separated.
The Post Incident Assessment and Enhancement Review Team report is not a condemnation of the CFD. It clearly indicates that it has also listened to the CFD firemen and made several recommendations on their behalf.
The half-armed people are those making comments based on what they read in the paper without having read and/or understood the PIAERT report and its recommendations.
Those that have read the report know that the expert panel looked beyond "minimum standards" and that their recommendations incorporate the City's vision to bring the CFD up to the "highest possible standard" based on best practices, not just "acceptable" standards.
Addressing facts regarding the losses at the SSS, the CFD and the City is not a carte blanche endorsement of the Mayor or the Fire Chief.
BattleChiefNCFD,
Any reasonable person would rather fight a fire with four men than three and Charleston has adopted the recommendation, but that does not automatically say that three men cannot fight a fire safely and effectively, nor did the expert panel make that statement depends on the size of the fire and the environment. (Wasn't Alan Brunacini's expertise in suppressing large Western wildfires?)
October 18, 2007 at 10:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Here are two YouTube videos that show why NFPA 1710 staffing recommendations are important:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MCZoZ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_K-K6...
The Fairfax video discusses the need for staffing 4 versus 3 firefighters. The chief has said that Charleston sometimes runs ladder apparatus at a couple of stations with as few as 2 firefighters.
October 18, 2007 at 10:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
>>> rjahopp -> Nevertheless, Mayor Riley and the "City" are correct in supporting Chief Thomas and the CFD in regard to the SSS incident. The Chief has done a commendable job to date. <<<
The P&C article accurately reports the findings of the fire experts hired by the city of charleston, mayor joseph p. riley, jr.
The mayor apparently is trying to cover up the inability of the fire chief to handle a small town like charlestons' fire department.
Take heart, rjahopp, the City of North Charleston and the town of Summerville are ready to step in and help.
October 18, 2007 at 10:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
manning1216 (anonymous) says...
After Talking to a captain with another fire department I learned that the ISO rating has to do with the availably of water to fight fires (location and the number of fire hydrants). Can anyone verify this. I know that In the city of Charleston there's one on almost every corner.
October 18, 2007 at 10:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
manning1216: The ISO rating is done for insurance companies not for fire company credibility and it is based more on quantity not quality. Basically, insurance companies take your premium and bet you are not going to have a fire, but, being a business, they want to make sure the bet is a good one. If the odds are more in favor of the insurance company not having to "pay up", they feel they can charge less in premiums. If the odds are more in favor of the insurance company having to "pay up", they will want to charge a heavier premium. ISO tells insurance companies how safe their bet is based on quantity items, not quality items, of a fire department. In other words, how many hydrants are available, how many engines and pumpers in the area and how many fire fighters. The ratings go from 10-1, with #1 being the highest. ISO isn't necessarily focused on the type of training, etc. One of the problems with this type of logic is evident at the SSS fire. You can have one heck of a lot of hydrants, and a number of fire trucks but, as I said before, you can't pump through garden hoses and put out a large fire, such as the one at the SSS. That, however, was only one of the problems that happened that evening. Also, the ISO #1 rating is only for the Charleston peninsula, not the outlying areas the CFD also covers. It is my understanding that the CFD was given their ISO #1 for the peninsula about ten years ago and was about due for another review.
October 18, 2007 at 11:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hanknita (anonymous) says...
I'm a 72 year old Volenteer firefighter and have been in the service since 1960. I have read the brief decription of the recomendations by the panel and find them very interesting. With what CFD already has it seems the panel is proposing tne altimate Fire Co. One that is perfect in every way but impractical.
Now lets look at the money.15 new firefighters,$600,000.00 a year with benifits.All new TOG at $1500.00 each for the Dept.$67,000.00.New SCBA's at $3000.00 each,$135,000.00.Extra cylinders for the SCBA's $90000.00.Large diameter hose, 3000 ft $12000.00.
This is only the tip of the iceburg as to the recomendations .Where is this money coming from ? Are the taxpayers of Charleston going to stand for the tax increase this will cause? I'll bet Chief Thomas would have liked to have had this years ago but had to hold the line on his budget because City Council and the Mayor didn't want to increase taxes for fire service. Maybe now that we have lost 9 brothers the tax payers will be more understanding of CFD's needs.
October 18, 2007 at 11:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
If Chief Thomas had asked for these items he might have received them...no one will know however, because the word out is that he never asked for anything other than fire trucks. The budget appears to have been there, but seems to be difficult to follow as well.
The frightening thing is that this panel as well as experts across the country have stated that these recommendations are merely to get this department up to MINIMAL standards...Cost? Unbelievable..however, if we look at spreading these items and procedures over a period of 15 years, the cost would have also been spread out..just a matter of asking and you shall receive..
I think it is fair to say that it would have been much more cost effective to spread this out, as opposed to paying out money for the memorial services, the death benefits, the possible legal actions to come, the cost to hire the panel, and the improvements to be made...
I think it would be a fair bet that the Mayor had no idea that these things were needed, or that the department is so deficient. It appears he hasn't got a clue what a fire department needs...prime example of why a City needs to hire trained, and educated professionals.
Respectfully
October 19, 2007 at 12:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WalkMan (anonymous) says...
Myopic. Good word. I liked that. Keeps everyone on their toes. Is it myopic for the industry that understands the fire service to condemn practices they know to be outmoded or for those that don't to perform as if they are the only ones that know the facts?
October 19, 2007 at 4:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Hopp the facts are you , Rusty,and RILEY are self-centered Idiots that don't give a damn about the city or its firemen. You only care about RT and Cotton EYED JOE. Join the CFD and risk your candy @$$ they are definitely hiring and Rusty will soon run out of his friend's kids or kids that he has coached. Stand up and be a man. I have a feeling that RJHOPP would just be another X on the drill tower.
October 19, 2007 at 9:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Nickie the sad thing is they are still trying to spread the cost out. They think if they sit back it will blow over. RT is excited he has many more positions to fill with his bootlicks. What a shame. I'm embarrased to have ever been associated with the CFD.
October 19, 2007 at 9:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Bootlicked,
When reality sets in for the City,I think their opportunity for spreading out the funds will be a long distant memory. This is the time now that COUNCIL needs to stand up and make their presence known...they need to demand that the City implement the most urgent recommendations now, regardless of the cost...the hoses can't be postponed any longer...a lay persons analysis as well as multiple fire professionals heard the desperate calls for more water, more pressure, etc...would it have made a difference? I think it would have, as well as others think it would have. So, why not give the men the advantage with documented studies that show the hoses can and DO make a difference for their safety?
Bootlicked, we have been at this for several months now, and I am MORE amazed at the stupidity coming out of the City than I am about what is in that report...they hired them, promised to implement what they recommend and then they spin the he** out of it when it's released...do they REALLY think we are totally inept individuals who have no earthly idea of what is going on around us?
Don't be ashamed Boot...this is not a reflection on the rank and file men inside...the ignorance is squarely owned by the administration. The men of the CFD are great guys, and good firefighters...they will be even better when they are given the tools they need and deserve. Keep your chin up!
October 19, 2007 at 12:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
easy (anonymous) says...
Do you really want to see change ? Then get off your A$$E$ and vote Mayor Dickhead out of office, and his little Blow Buddy will follow him....
Then changes can start to be made, until then, same ole, same ole..................
October 19, 2007 at 3:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Sad thing is that most who work for the city can't afford to live in the city and therefore don't have a vote. We would really welcome your support.
October 20, 2007 at 10:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jkh (anonymous) says...
no amount of new equipment, etc will help w/stupidity..what was asst. fire chief garvin thinking when he opened the fire door between the showroom and loading dock...he knew the fire was on the other side..that is when the fire entered the showroom w/all that flamable furniture..& he says he would do nothing different...he is def. at fault second after the person who started it w/smoking near the "deck"..is this the way they r trained to open fire doors when fire is on the other side...if he had not done this it would have given them more time to put it out on the loading dock...frm comments on other web sites, a fireman states that is "a rookie mistake"....what a mistake!!
October 26, 2007 at 8:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Postandcourier.com is pleased to offer readers the enhanced ability to comment on stories. We expect our readers to engage in lively, yet civil discourse. Postandcourier.com does not edit user submitted statements and we cannot promise that readers will not occasionally find offensive or inaccurate comments posted in the comments area. Responsibility for the statements posted lies with the person submitting the comment, not postandcourier.com. If you find a comment that is objectionable, please click "report abuse" and we will review it for possible removal. Please be reminded, however, that in accordance with our Terms of Use and federal law, we are under no obligation to remove any third party comments posted on our website.
Users can now build user-to-user connections, follow friends' recent posts, add an avatar that fits their personality, and more. If you have posted here before you'll need to sign up again, or if you've never posted before, start now by signing up!
Full terms and conditions can be read here.