Local, federal guidelines in conflict
Charleston department followed own policies in store fire
By Ron Menchaca , Doug Pardue
Steel truss roofs, such as the one on the Sofa Super Store on Savannah Highway, can collapse within minutes in a major fire.
Charleston department followed own policies in store fire
The Charleston City Fire Department has its own firefighting rules that conflict in some ways with safety rules adopted by federal and South Carolina fire safety agencies.
Fires in large buildings can create chaotic circumstances, and there's no way to know whether following the federal rules would have saved the lives of the nine firefighters killed Monday in the Sofa Super Store blaze.
Assistant Fire Chief Larry Garvin, who was in charge of the scene when firefighters entered the building, told The Post and Courier that he made his decisions in accordance with his department's training and procedures.
He said he entered the building with firefighters to search for fire. Federal rules call for the incident chief to maintain an overall command from outside the burning building.
Garvin said he walked through the store's showroom looking for fire but saw only a small puff of smoke near the ceiling tiles at the rear of the building. Federal rules say firefighters should make a careful search for hidden fire inside the ceiling area in such structures.
Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas said Friday that he does not know whether his department's policies mirror federal and state guidelines for managing a fire scene.
"I don't know," he said. "I know we have our own."
Thomas said Garvin acted in accordance with departmental firefighting policy, which allows the fire scene commander to actively participate in fighting a fire. "He can get into the fire," Thomas said. He said doing so does not compromise his commander's ability.
Federal fire safety reports say incident commanders should not engage in firefighting or rescue operations, said Carl Peterson, director of the public fire protection division for the National Fire Protection Association. Peterson's division writes many of the fire safety rules on which federal guidelines are based. In South Carolina, state workplace safety rules are the same as the federal code.
"If you are actively involved in firefighting activity, then you are not monitoring the big picture," Peterson said.
When firefighters arrived at the sofa store Monday evening, they discovered flames outside the back of the main showroom. While one team of firefighters began fighting those flames, Garvin went with a team of firefighters inside the showroom through the front of the building.
Garvin told The Associated Press that he entered the store three times. He said he saw only a small amount of smoke near the ceiling, which he thought was wafting in from the fire outside the building. He said that when he went in the next two times, the conditions seemed to get worse.
Michael Parrotta, president of the South Carolina Professional Firefighters Association and a former firefighter in Myrtle Beach for more than 20 years, questioned why Garvin was in and out of the building and not positioned outside monitoring the fire's progress. "We need incident commanders on the outside. Him going in and out, that deters him from doing his job as the incident commander."
John Reich, acting state fire marshal, said the state does not inspect fire departments' operating procedures. The state assumes that departments are following guidelines prescribed in the National Incident Management System, or NIMS, Reich said.
Gov. Mark Sanford signed an executive order in 2005 ordering all fire departments to ensure that their internal incident command policies come in line with NIMS.
The federal guidelines lay out the duties of an incident commander, Reich said, describing the job as "the brains" on the scene of a fire.
Reich said that as a matter of practicality, incident command structure also is dependent on the size of the department.
Notorious roof structure
The city fire department's handling of a routine preplanning fire safety inspection of the Sofa Super Store on U.S. Highway 17 in April 2006 also conflicts with federal recommendations. In that review, Garvin and two other firefighters did not say in the report that the main showroom's roof was supported by a steel truss, which could have given the firefighters a warning.
The roof of the Sofa Super Store's main showroom, where six of the dead firefighters' bodies were found, was supported by a steel truss, a type of structure notorious among firefighters for concealing dangerous overhead fires and causing sudden roof collapse.
"Pre-incident planning assumes an incident will occur and is one of the most valuable tools available for aiding responding personnel in effectively controlling an emergency," according to recommendations by the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health.
State and federal investigators are continuing to evaluate what happened at the Sofa Super Store and if the truss structure contained a hidden fire before it collapsed. The Charleston County coroner said autopsies showed that the firefighters died of burns and smoke inhalation. She said the men did not receive any serious injuries from the roof's collapse, but it may have been a factor in trapping them.
Thomas said Friday that he doesn't know if his men were aware that the store's roof was supported by a steel truss.
Federal safety alerts say firefighters need to exercise extreme caution when a fire is suspected in a structure with a steel truss roof. "The design of suspended ceiling panels provides a void to hide the fire and allow hot gases to accumulate which may flash when oxygen is introduced," according to the federal report.
Looking for the fire
Garvin said that in hindsight he wonders whether the fire might have already been burning, hidden above the ceiling tiles, when he first went into the building looking for flames.
After seeing the puff of smoke near the ceiling, Garvin opened the back door to a covered rear deck area, where investigators say the fire began. When he did that, the fire's force sucked the door from his grip and he was not able to close it. The fire immediately erupted toward him. He then ordered in two hose teams to fight the fire.
Thinking the teams were getting the blaze under control, he left them inside to go around to the back of the building, where he heard over his radio that a store worker was trapped inside another part of the building.
"When I went on the side of the building, (Thomas) was there, and once he got there, that relieves me of my command."
Federal incident command guidelines call for a formal passage of command, so that the arriving commander can be briefed on what's happening and so that firefighters know who's in charge.
Thomas said city firefighting rules do not require a verbal passing of command. "I'm just going to let you know we have our own incident command system. We have it written that the highest-ranking official is automatically in charge. I don't care how it is anyplace else."
He said a formal pass-off of responsibility is not required by the department because all of its firefighters know the internal policy.
It's not unusual for fire departments to skirt federal regulations. Chiefs at some area fire departments say their policies on an incident commander's duties vary according to the fire scene.
For the Isle of Palms Fire Department, there is generally a radio announcement when a senior officer takes command, said Chief Ann Graham. "But for some departments, it's just a known fact," Graham said.
When Sullivan's Island Fire Chief Anthony Stith arrives at a scene, his firefighters know he has taken command, he said.
Stith said an incident commander should be posted outside the building, "but it all depends on the situation. If I've got somebody in trouble, then I'm going to pull hose just like everyone else."
A similar case
What happened in the fire is eerily similar to a June 15, 2003, fire in Memphis, Tenn., that killed two firefighters. That fire broke out in a Family Dollar Store with a steel truss roof similar to the roof at the Sofa Super Store, and when firefighters arrived, they didn't initially find any fire.
Firefighters, including the incident commander, went into the building to look for the fire, without checking the ceiling area where fire was hidden. One of the firefighters opened a door to a back room, where he heard crackling.
When he opened the door the fire flared up and the force prevented him from shutting the door. Firefighters then brought hoses in to fight the fire. Two died when the fire in the ceiling caused the roof to collapse.
The Firefighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program of the National Institute of Occupational Safety and Health issued five recommendations for fire departments to follow as a result of what happened in that fire.
Among those were that "Fire departments should ensure that the first arriving company officer does not become involved in firefighting." The report said that is necessary "to effectively coordinate and direct fire fighting operations." In addition, the report said, involvement of the incident commander in fire fighting "hampers the communication of essential information as command is transferred to later arriving officers."
That investigation report said the incident commander needs to be especially cautious if the building has a steel truss roof because such roofs can conceal fire and can collapse within 6 to 13 minutes.
The report also said fire departments should conduct "pre-incident" inspections that detail the exact type of roof construction. Copies of that report should be given to 911 dispatchers "so that when a fire is reported, the dispatcher can notify, by radio, all first responders with critical information so they can take appropriate actions."
Finally, the report urged all departments fighting fires in steel truss buildings to immediately and carefully inspect ceiling areas with pike poles to check for fire. Such inspection should be done as close to an exit as possible.
Charleston Mayor Joe Riley has repeatedly praised the city's firefighters for their professionalism and heroism. At a press conference Saturday he said it's too early to speculate about what happened in the fire. "All of those questions will be part of the investigation."
"We're going to exhaustively and thoroughly examine all of that. And everything that can be learned from this fire for our benefit (and) for the benefit of our county and for states and communities throughout America."
Assistant Fire Chief Ronnie Classen said, "They didn't make a mistake when they first went in there. They did exactly what they were supposed to do, there's no question."
Reach Ron Menchaca at rmenchaca@postandcourier.com or 937-5724. Reach Doug Pardue at dpardue@postandcourier.com or 937-5558.
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scfdguy (anonymous) says...
So it seems that by not having the IC outside at all times and by not following standard teachings of IMS I would almost consider the responsibility of the deaths that of the "IC"...is it a murder?
There is no reason of LODD, ever. It's not part of the job. That building should have been pre planned. They ALL should have known about the particular feature of the building. Where's the leadership to ensure this information gets passed on to everyone?
June 25, 2007 at 9:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ffsafetyguy (anonymous) says...
National standards are put in place for a reason; too many times doing otherwise has proven fatal. Ignoring these standards is the same as "Freelancing" on the fire scene; just as dangerous and just as fatal. Pre-Fire plans are supposed to give the responding crews the information they need to extinguish and survive the fire. Someone in a command position forgot the simple rules of engagement and need to be brought to task over their failure. You never "assume" command, you announce it so the whole world knows.
June 25, 2007 at 10:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fire22 (anonymous) says...
scfdguy, do you know all of your building in your area? This building shoud have a pre-plan, but it wasnot. Are all of your building pre-planed? If not are you murding your firefighters if they die in a fire. People need to stop playing monday morning quarter back. Thes Cheifs are having to deal with 9 LODD and they dont need you our anybody telling them they mested up!!!!!
June 25, 2007 at 10:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lucasseven (anonymous) says...
Maybe all you so called safety guys should take a hard look at what you are putting down in writing. Th IC is also our brother who is hurting right now. He needs support not criticism at this time. We all know the if we followed the Fed guidelines to the letter every fire would be defensive and very few of us would ever get hurt. But I'm sure you all agree, that is not the fire depts. we're employed by. We need to continue to do the best job we can do despite constantly reducing numbers without anyone second guessing our actions.....especially our own brothers and sisters. My prayers go out to my 9 brave brothers......God Bless You.
June 25, 2007 at 11:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cbwg901 (anonymous) says...
With ALL due respect to the fallen and to those who are struggling....the reality is they DID mess up! And, until we start holding people accountable for these kinds of mistakes, we will continue to KILL fire fighters in record numbers across this country. All the mistakes need to be brought to the forefront and openly discussed so others can learn. And, those who are responsible for the deaths of these fine men, MUST be held accountable!!!
June 25, 2007 at 11:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cfd2512 (anonymous) says...
It is easy to sit back and judge every move the IC makes after the fact, and i will agree that the IC should remain outside the structure, but every fire is different and a fire does not care about Federal guidelines, and the only people that think that Fed. gudeline cover every situtaion, everytime is the Feds. When it comes down to it, our first responsability is to save lives and that is what these BRAVE guys did, and sometime there is a cost in doing the job we love, you know that and your family knows that. So let becareful how quick we are to judge unitl you are put in that same position.
June 25, 2007 at 2:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fireman (anonymous) says...
Let the investigations run their course, see what is found before making wild claims and ruining someone's career. I am from Virginia and came to Charleston for the memorial service. I saw the pain the department is going through. Let my brothers grieve without placing blame and love them as you would a family member.
June 25, 2007 at 2:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LieutenantGCFD (anonymous) says...
I am a full time career Incident Commander! I am a career officer with 18 years on the job. I have been reading everyones comments with dismay. National (NFPA) Standards work in a perfect world. Where you have unlimited budgets to have unlimited manpower, the best training and equipment in the world. I live and work in the real world. There is not one fire department (Volunteer/Combination/Career) anywhere in the United States that can comply with all the the National (NFPA) standards. The National Fire Protection Association standards that state and federal agencies adopt are with few exceptions are not worth the paper they are written on. There is no enforcement. Local govenments can choose to what degree that want to comply by limiting the fire departments budget. Example NFPA 1700 and 1710 set minimum standards for manpower. Four personnel on a Engine and Five on a Ladder Truck minimum. All across the United States we still have fire trucks responding with one person on the truck. My Engine has two people counting myself. When I arrive at a house fire with someone trapped. The driver places the truck in pump. I pull the attack line. Then we both go in to save the person trapped. According to the national standards for apparatus operations and incident command. We should both stand outside an listen to the person burn to death in the house. Driver never leaves the engine. Incident command must be maintained outside the structure.
According to national standards (NFPA) entry into a structure fire requires two firefighters on an attack line, two firefighters on a (safety) back up line standing by outside the structure to rescue any trapped firefighters, one firefighter on the fire engine pump panel operating the pump. One person as the incident command officer. You need a safety officer, you need three firefighters for ventilation of the roof, you need a medical team standing by. The list goes on and on. I live and work in the real world. We go in an save the person from burning to death with the resources we have. The career I have choosen is a dangerous one. I want to go home at the end of my shift same as everyone else. When I leave home to go to work its always in the back of my mind that I may not come home if I have a bad day at the office.
June 25, 2007 at 3:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
33engine (anonymous) says...
Sounds like the Mayor and Fire Chief have a pretty good thing going. They make six figures while the brothers doing the job earn 30,000. Nine brothers lost there life because they worked for a Chief too stupid to know any better. Chief Thomas had to do it his way and he killed nine firemen doing it. Are you serious, the initial incident commander running command from inside the building. When it is all said and done hopefully the Chief will stand up and admit his guilt but truth be told he doesn't care, he's still alive making six figures, too dumb to know any better !
June 25, 2007 at 4:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
firegal (anonymous) says...
I read in dismay the comment that LieutenantGCFD wrote. I am also a Lieutenant. I am sorry that he feels that what he is doing is correct and acceptable. Obviously he was writing the line "We should both stand outside and listen to the person burn to death in the house" hoping to illicit a gasp and a pat on the back for having a poor work eithic. Wether you are a big or small department there is no excuse for not having a pair of eyes on a working structure fire with fire personnel inside. I teach students also that are in the fire academy that when you are efectuating a rescue remember You and your partner are alive you do not know if what you are going in for are. The I.C. should be positioned outside not darting in and out trying to micromanage the officers inside. Fire department deaths are unacceptable. And as for LieutenentGCFDs' closing sentence "When i leave home to go to work its always in the back of my mind that I may not come home if I have a bad day at the office" How brave and macho he is and while we all know the inherient dangers of our positions in the fire service we do not cry about politics and buget hungry departments helping us facitate our early demise. Do it right. As an officer i am responsible for all my guys and doing the right thing. While it may not be popular it is right to be cautious, waiting till more help arrives and considering all posibilites. This was a huge tradgey for South Carolina and the fire department family as a whole.
June 25, 2007 at 4:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
If the Chief took over, what the heck was he doing standing at the front door and not looking at the overall picture(as seen in John Pundt's video on this site), that is accepted practice by pretty well all knowledgable fire departments in North America. Not sure who ordered the front windows broken(same video), but that move was the beginning of the end. And the whole thing happened while the IC was right there. An eye witness on another video described the breaking of all the windows and went on to say how fast the fire escalated when the large amount of oxygen was introduced. My heart goes out to all of the firefighter families and co-workers but there is going to be a lot to be learned from this fire.
June 25, 2007 at 5:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
twobars (anonymous) says...
Iam a retired Captain in a small dept. I also was an instructor in the State. My responsibilities beside running a shift was incident commander. Our dept only had 2 men on an engine and one on the truck. We still had our training and instructions. Unless a life was in danger, and you needed more than saying that any fire could have a life in danger, we observed the 2 in 2 out rule. No building is worth a life. Iam not going to prejudge the officers of this huge loss. My comments are only to say big or small we have a responsibility to our people. If your budgets don't allow the proper manpower then the building will have to burn. This is reality. We do not kill firefighters over a building. If there is a life threatened then by all means we will do everything and anything to make that grab. The incident commander can not run an incident when he is part of a crew. I have done it, it was wrong. I learned and have to say we have to change our thinking. But for now let these people grieve and let the numerous investigations do their thing. We are all angry. Lets hold it in check.
June 25, 2007 at 9:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Fmrfirewife (anonymous) says...
I have been around the fire service for many years. My heart goes out to the family of the lost men. I hope they will get the answers they need. I truly believe that Asst. Chief Garvin lost control (if he had it at all) of the fire scene and put the men in harm's way - for a building!!
I also wonder why he opened the door before he checked out the smoke from the ceiling, broke out the windows, and started the water towers on the roof. Why not do all that
before you have men inside, especially since all trapped employees had been rescued. I'm deeply troubled by all this and am afraid a coverup will take place.
June 25, 2007 at 10:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Firechief91 (anonymous) says...
While it is easy to play arm chair quarterback here, the truth of the matter is, apparently we are not learning from past LODD's. Texas and Tenn. are prime examples. It is the job of ALL firefighters, veterans and probies alike to read about LODD and learn from them. While we all miss warning signs, we should all assume (for lack of a better word) that a building of this size is constructed of trusses and predict the worse.
What does it take to pop a few ceiling tiles ?
I don't want to bash the IC, enough of that will be done in the months to come, as more and more firefighters read such articles, but damn, 9 of out brothers are dead and all because it appears that the city's firefighters don't read reports of previous deaths.
What about the other officers on scene ?
I could only wish to be on the lines and in the fire but as an IC, my role is to have the overall view from the exterior of the structure and use my experience and what I have learned from past mistakes, made by both myself and others,and to guide my firefighters to fight the fires the best I can.
We do things that are dangerous, it is the nature of our bussiness. Sometimes, when lives are at stake, we go a little to far to save these lives.
I can anly hope that all firefighters will learn from this. Take this info back to your departments and share this info. Always pop a few ceiling tiles, always plan on the fire getting into the voids and look for extension agressively, you lives WILL depend on it.Lets not have this happen again.
Oh and by the way, if the fire was above the ceiling, sprinklers would not have done a damn thing.
June 25, 2007 at 11:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
LieutenantGCFD (anonymous) says...
I have read the comments from firegal. When I arrive on the scene of a structure fire with someone trapped and I believe that they can be saved I will do my best to save them. The two in and two out rule under NFPA standards is exempted for this situation only. If you read NFPA 1700 and 1710 the manpower minimums require a very large percent of fire departments across the United States to always fight every structure fire defensively. Standards adopted like these are unfunded mandates. There is no enforcement agency to force elected officals to fund standards. Then when something goes wrong and people get hurt and killed we want to uses these same standards to execute the person in charge. We recently saw this at the Baltimore fire academy. Now I am starting see it here in Charleston. When you look at any department for non-compliance you need to look at there budget first. Our elected leaders are the source of most non-compliance. Fire Chiefs across the country set priorities which standards do they most need to comply with and what funding can they get to comply. When on the fire scene I would love to be able to comply with every NFPA standard but the reality it is not possible. You have to evaluate the risk and make a go / no go decision. We as a Fire Service nation wide do the best we can with what we have. If we continue to have meetings and adopting the NFPA standards as state and federal guidelines. Then the state and federal leadership needs to mandate that fire departments be fully funded to comply with them. So before anyone moves to execute the Charleston FD leadership we need to get all the facts first.
June 25, 2007 at 11:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
We are not talking the first arriving Captains or Lieutenants here, this has nothing to do with funding. If a senior officer shows up on scene whether it be a Battalion Chief, District Chief, Platoon Chief, Deputy Chief, or Fire Chief, someone has to stand back and survey the whole scene to watch the progression of the fire. Hackensack Ford gave us some powerful lessons about Command and Control. At Hackensack the IC was in the doorway and on the roof. This incident was almost exactly like the Hackensack fire yet no one seemed to remember what we saw there! The Federal government mandated how the scene was to be run, but in this case the Department chose to do it their way with dire consequences. So remember we are not talking a small department where the Chief may be on the first arriving pump, in this case this is a fairly large City department with senior officers whose main duty at a fire is to be a dedicated IC.
June 25, 2007 at 11:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
1485 (anonymous) says...
You don't need a written Prefire to know that a large store with an open floor plan and few columns has a truss roof overhead. Truss roofs kill firefighters when they go underneath them while fire is overhead.
When there is obvious fire somewhere in a structure like the Sofa Super Store, never go underneath the drop ceiling without checking what is overhead. Step inside the door, 10' at the most, and pop the ceiling tiles to see what's overhead. Too high for your pike pole? Blast the ceiling tiles with a straight stream and see what's going on overhead, or get a ladder. Keep checking as you advance, and have someone up top doing inspection cuts at a minimum! Don't break out the windows across the front of the 10,000 sq ft store until you have adequate fire flow available to control the potential fire. How about some portable monitors right at the entry door and store front windows.
How many post-incident LODD reports have you read involving situations like this one? How many training videos involving close calls or LODDs have you seen involving this SAME fire- just a different place and time.
Yeah, someone was reportedly trapped, and rescue efforts saved a life- and that's what it's about. But what about COMMAND of the overall effort- risk/benefit analysis sending hoselines deep into the building, large fire flow needs with a few 100-300 gpm lines going in the front door, any vertical ventilation or inspection cuts up top, any check of the overhead void space?
Our Brothers were doing a dangerous job, and their efforts led to the rescue of one human being. But the sad part is that the 9 Brothers DID NOT NEED TO DIE, not in ANOTHER truss roof building with established fire present.
June 26, 2007 at 12:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
1485 (anonymous) says...
Just a quick comment on any sprinkler naysaying; in Seattle, if the code requires sprinklers below the drop ceiling, they are required ABOVE it too, in the plenum/"void" space. Of course, different cities & states, plus different years, equals different code requirements. Nevertheless, had the building been sprinklered according to up-to-date standards, there would not be 9 dead Brothers.
June 26, 2007 at 12:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
liverboard58 (anonymous) says...
Firstly i am sorry to read about the sad loss of 9 firefighters, however i must agree with the comments made by firegal. I am a Station Manager in London, the risks we cover are similar to that you have in the US, we do not tolerate macho behaviour, we have strict incident command procedures that are adopted by all, from the initial IC right up to the commisioner.We all know that it can be a dangerous job at times, as officers we have a duty to minimise risk that we expose our crews to.
June 26, 2007 at 4:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fetch (anonymous) says...
Having served in both volunteer and career FD for some years now I see the same 'trend' within departments everywhere. When things happen that cause death or injury someone must be blamed. It flows down from every vein within the structure of fire fighting entities and their municipality or other funding entity... Risk Management is hammered home and emblazoned into our skulls, deeper with each successive promotion. Gordon Graham's stuff is excellent in this regard and we learn it at all levels of the FF command, from Chief to Boot FF. However, as LieutenantGCFD stated, in all departments everywhere, the structure and level of safety expertise and hardware is directly proportionate to the $$ that department has at it's disposal. My view is the responsibility needs to be pushed back to the holders of the purse strings, be it City Council members, Mayors, or whoever. None of us can do any more than what we have resources to do it with. Think of your own department structure. How many years are the requests for sufficient thermal imaging devices, better pass devices, education budget items, a new Truck for reaching higher to modern structures in your district, or other are turned down while other entities' requests are not.
In my view shortcomings that help to create unsafe practice or lack of safety equipment come from two things... #1 is lack of public education which translates to #2 which is lack of money. Elected officials are 'public'. If they don't learn correctly before elected they do stupid things and Fire Fighters get killed.
Craig Jensen
June 26, 2007 at 2:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AllHazardsGuy (anonymous) says...
First and Foremost.... Everyone needs to STOP and let the guys from Charleston deal with their loss. No matter what the circumstances they still are our brothers and need to have time to grieve. From what I have seen of Chief Thomas, He appears to be a Firefighters' Chief. There is no shell game taking place. A Chief with the characteristics of Chief Thomas will decide when to stop the grieving and move forward. When the grieving is over, Chief Thomas and all of his department will actively participate in the Investigation and will admit their role, change if they need to and ensure that the legacy of the Charleston 9 lives on in making a safer place for the rest of US (yes, we all put our pants on the same way)! Lead the WAY Chief Thomas, stand and deliver, just like your 9 would want you too. Good, Bad, Right or Wrong...... Lead the way!
CFD your in our thoughts and prayers!
June 26, 2007 at 2:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AllHazardsGuy (anonymous) says...
Just too add another thought, If you still beleive that FF LODD's are acceptable, then you need to change professions. While standards say this and guidelines say that, the bottom line is we need to remember there has to be a change in the way we operate. There is no property that is worth a life. The only way we risk a life is for a life. It's TIME to stop the deaths! There is not one acceptable LODD...EVER! With all the work being done to prevent deaths, all the Standards and recommendations, all the advanced equipment, all the training available, all the history we have, it is time to hold CHIEF's accountable. While FF's must be responsible, when you accept the 5 BUGLES, you accept all things within the department, good or bad. Let the Chief do his job as needed, and be there for his personnel after a LODD, but them put him to task and make sure that everyone is doing all they can to prevent it from happening again. From a $100,000 IC system to a $2 baking pan with magnets and popsicle sticks, we all have to stop the deaths. Make a FireChiefs pledge to safety, have every Chief in the world sign it. It's time to step up as a Fire Service and let the world know that no Firefighters life is worth the buildings in our community's. Let people know that if we see a LODD that there was a life at risk. If we are willing to accept the deaths as "part of the fire service", then at least lets know that with each one there was a life we were trying to save.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you CFD!
June 26, 2007 at 2:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
RESCUE7 (anonymous) says...
Hi all .... I am not a big time paid guy. I am from a small Northeast Pa Borough and I can tell some of you that I do know all of the commercial structures in my district, i know what the hazards are from steel truss construction, to bow string trusses to regular wood residential trusses. Now with that out of the way .... what was running through that Chief's head ... you NEVER leave your post as IC to go and play. That guy needs to have his tail handed to him and sent packing for a new job at burger world. Yes, it really is a tragedy that 9 of our brothers had to die ... and correct me if i am wrong but firefighters work on orders from the IC."Engine 1 i need you to lay in and pull a line mounting an offensive attack" gee sounds like an order to me. As soon as that Chief broke the threshold of that building he was no longer IC and was a firefighter like the rest of them. The report said that there was puffing smoke from the cieling that was observed HMMMM GEEEE sounds like theres a fire somewhere so let's regroup, send the 1st due truck or rescue for recon and have them report to the IC. This LODD was senseless ... remember the saying "risk little to save little and risk alot to save alot" ? 9 lives were risked to POSSIBLY save 1 trapped worker in a large commercial structure fire that sounds like it had a bit of a start before the 1st due arrived. What i am saying is write him off and save your own people. STAY SAFE AND STAY ALIVE GUYS AND GALS. See ya in the funnt papers.
June 26, 2007 at 3:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
solrebel (anonymous) says...
I am very saddened by the events of last week. Even more sad is that there are people who are out there saying that the strategies and tactics used were acceptable in this day and age. I grieve with my brothers and I honestly think the staff of the CFD feels horrible about these events and losing their friends and colleagues. But feeling horrible about it doesn't bring these guys back, and thinking these tactics were sound given evidence to the contrary is bordering on delusional.
I have been on the job for over 28 years and I know what it's like to lose a brother. We need to step back and let this take the course that it will take- there will be an investigation and probably even litigation. All of these comments in this blog may even end up being subpeonaed. But there are some very clear lessons to be learned despite the claims of some in here that they are only possible in a perfect world:
1) You have a responsibility to your family, your team, and your community to be safe. Getting injured or killed does not solve the problem. Rick vs. benefit analysis is necessary. Truss roofs kill.
2) Command can NOT be performed "on the run". I have commanded incidents larger than this and much smaller; command needs to be centrally located, visible, and in control. There needs to be a plan.
3) When going into a fire, someone needs to pull ceilings and expose void spaces. If the fire gets behind you, then you can see what can happen. Just as you would never take your eyes off of a man with a gun, never take your eyes off of the fire.
Let's stop beating each other up in this blog, use some common sense, and give the investigation a chance to get rolling. It's the classiest and most honorable way to remember our fallen brothers.
June 26, 2007 at 10:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
Well said solrebel, I too have many years in the fire service but I do not agree that everyone should stand back and wait for the investigation to analyze the situation here. Many years ago when there was a tragedy like this we would only read a blurb in the paper or seee a news clip.
I personally spent time discussing this incident with my crew, there is so much information out there now, we all need to use the media/internet information to learn. Unfortunately this information, especially from the news sources disappears after a couple of weeks.
We can actually see a lot of what happened with the excellent graphics and videos shown on the internet.
I will say one thing, as an officer, this tragedy will always be in the back of my mind when I make entry into this type of building! It was a learning experience for me even with well over 30 years of service.
June 26, 2007 at 11:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
twobars (anonymous) says...
We need to stop blaming money for not properly doing our job. I don't care if you have a hundred man dept or a 20 man dept you still have the same job to do. The people blaming the feds and the state and the locals have to stop. If you don't have enough people on the fireground to do the job you prepare, such as pull hose, get equipment etc. If there is a life involved then all bets are off if there is a chance you can make a difference. I have the feeling that all of us have this feeling that something wasn't quite right. Use this as a training tool. If something on the fireground doesn't feel right then it isn't. Adjust your plan accordingly. Again a building is not worth a firefighters life! If you don't have the manpower to do the job then wait. Let the politicians explain why the building burned. Just my thoughts after 39 years of experience.
June 27, 2007 at 12:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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