Are city of Charleston's firefighting techniques too bold?
Grace Beahm
File
Charleston firefighters were often told in training that they weren't doing their jobs if a newspaper photographer snapped their photo at a fire scene. That meant they were standing outside the burning building, rather than attacking the blaze head-on.
The Charleston Fire Department has long prided itself on a hard-charging, aggressive approach to battling fires. Firefighters don't stand by and wait for flames to die. They rush into the belly of the blaze to save lives and property. Risk is just part of the job.
"That's the tradition that's been carried on in the city of Charleston Fire Department since time was time," Fire Chief Rusty Thomas said. "Are we going to let someone's property burn? No, sir."
Some now question the department's old-school tactics in the aftermath of the inferno June 18 at the Sofa Super Store on Savannah Highway that killed nine Charleston firefighters.
The incident has become part of a national debate raging in firefighting circles. Just what level of risk is acceptable? And to what degree should firefighters endanger themselves to save property, or even other lives?
Fire safety experts and union officials have criticized the Charleston department's handling of the furniture store blaze, saying its procedures are out of line with nationally prescribed standards. They contend that the department is relying on outdated methods that subject firefighters to unnecessary hazards.
In particular, they question why the incident commander was allowed to actively participate in the Sofa Super Store fire rather than maintain a vantage point to monitor the blaze. And they wonder why so many firefighters were inside a building known to have steel roof trusses, widely known as hazardous in fires.
Thomas and many firefighters dismiss these critics as outsiders who don't understand the realities of fighting fires in a dense city full of historic buildings. The chief is quick to point to the training and experience of his men, some of whom have been on the job for more than 30 years. Thomas said he trusts that experience and the department's time-honed techniques, regardless of what written standards might say.
"We come from a long line of traditional firefighting, and we are never going to get away from that — never," Thomas said. "You can't read out of a book how to put a fire out. You have to go out there and do it, and that's what we do."
Thomas said he will make changes, if necessary, based on the results of the state and federal investigation into the fire now under way. But as it stands, he thinks his men performed just as they were trained to and he wouldn't do anything differently if it happened again, he said.
'Smoke eaters'
The department's aggressive approach can be traced to the city's early days, when fires could sweep through blocks of downtown, claiming hundreds of homes and outbuildings. A large fire of 1861, for example, tore through 540 acres on the peninsula — destroying 575 homes, churches and stores along a mile from East Bay to Gibbes streets.
With buildings butting up against one another, often with shared walls, it became imperative for firefighters to get on the scene quickly and knock down the blaze before it could become a conflagration. If the fire was inside, they went in after it.
These "smoke eaters" learned by doing, and everyone got their hands dirty. Each generation of firefighters has passed on these techniques to the next.
But today's Charleston firefighters face even greater challenges. Downtown, the historic buildings they protect have become a crucial part of Charleston's lifeblood in a tourism-dependent economy. In the suburbs, they must contend with an abundance of big-box stores, warehouses and other sprawl crammed into bustling developments and constructed with a variety of lightweight, man-made materials.
Nationally, departments have edged away from fighting fires inside buildings, particularly when property alone is at stake. But the Charleston Fire Department, like the city it serves, values tradition. And that extends to the way it fights fires. The city's firefighters have a saying: You don't want to be an "outstanding" firefighter — one left standing outside a blaze.
Joe Schofield worked 42 years with the department before retiring last year as assistant chief. He said there is simply no other way to preserve property and ensure no one has been left inside a burning building.
That lesson was driven home in January 1999 when fire crews found the bodies of three homeless men in the ruins of a King Street building thought to be vacant, Schofield said.
"You can't put fires out by standing outside, shooting through the windows," he said. "Nobody wants to be on the outside looking in that's a firefighter. Everybody wants to be on the inside, where it's at."
The questions begin
Among those questioning the department's approach is Roger L. Yow, who retired from the department as a captain in 2003. Yow said he embraced the department's aggressive methods during his 25 years of service. But he said the deaths of nine former colleagues, including three who were members of the Charleston Firefighters Association, the local firefighters' union he heads, is a clarion call for change.
"There are a lot of things that can be done to keep this from happening again," he said. "To me, the biggest part of the tragedy is the aggressive firefighting."
The department's hard-charging attitude is evident in video footage and photographs from the scene of the June 18 fire. Off-duty firefighters can be seen participating in the battle wearing shorts and short-sleeve shirts, while other firefighters move around partially dressed in protective gear.
Former Charleston firefighter Jamy Cote said he used to receive a cold shoulder from some colleagues when he questioned why the department wasn't adhering to nationally prescribed safety recommendations. Among other things, firefighters often lacked adequate information about potential dangers in buildings they entered and a clear understanding of their roles at the fire scene. The department also lacked a special stand-by team to rescue firefighters who became imperiled, he said.
"It's an aggressive department, but not a progressive department," said Cote, who left the department last year. "I would still go climb a ladder up a three-story building to rescue someone. ... But I want to know: If I go down in a fire, who is coming to get me?"
Thomas dismissed Cote's statements as an inaccurate account from a disgruntled former employee. Thomas said his firefighters have the best training and equipment, intimately know their roles and the buildings in their districts, and operate as safely as possible in an inherently dangerous job. "I want my guys to get it done, and they do."
Thomas pointed to a bank building across the road from his Wentworth Street office. "If you have a fire over there and the roof has started to come in, are we going to go inside? No, I don't think so," he said, shaking his head. "But if it ain't, and the first guy on the scene thinks it's safe, guess where he's going? He's going in there to fight a fire."
Valor versus risk
Before last month, Charleston had not lost a firefighter in the line of duty since 1965. And the department has received national recognition for its bold efforts. In 2005, Charleston firefighter Ed Henry charged into a blazing building alone, climbed blindly to the third floor and pulled a man to safety. That effort earned him a trip to the White House, where President Bush presented him with the Medal of Valor, the nation's top award for public safety.
Still, union officials have said the city needs to improve its incident command structure, its pre-planning for structures with known fire hazards and its procedures for deciding whether to fight a fire offensively or defensively. They have questioned Thomas' department policy stating that the highest-ranking officer is automatically in charge of a fire scene and that the officer can engage in firefighting and rescue operations. Everyone in the department, including Thomas, is expected to pitch in.
But federal guidelines recommend that incident commanders remain outside of burning structures and that the passage of command be handed off formally so that the incoming commander can be briefed on overall conditions and the whereabouts of all firefighters.
Charleston Mayor Joe Riley scoffed at the recommendation, saying it makes no sense to keep an experienced commander away from the action. "The somewhat bureaucratic notion that a fire incident commander is not to be engaged, to me, is foolhardy."
The national debate over safety guidelines has raged for years within the fire service. Some firefighters view the recommendations' authors as desk jockeys who are out of touch with the realities of a fire scene, where conditions can change in an instant and decisions are often based on instinct.
Some firefighters around the nation say the recommendations, many of which stem from investigations into other firefighter fatalities, are designed for best-case scenarios. Meeting these guidelines is impractical given funding and staffing issues, some say.
Much of the discussion over the years regarding firefighter safety has focused on training and equipment, cardiovascular health and incident command tactics.
Still, many experts point out that while fire service equipment, training and knowledge have improved dramatically over time, the number of fire fatalities has remained constant at about 100 per year. One report estimates firefighter fatalities are on track this year to hit 116, a figure that includes heart attacks and traffic accidents.
David Daniels is the fire chief and emergency services administrator in Renton, Wash. He lost nine colleagues in the line of duty during a 12-year span and now serves on a national committee on firefighter safety. He said firefighters will continue to die in preventable accidents until the profession as a whole agrees that its macho, risk-taking culture is a problem. "These folks have, unfortunately, not come to the realization that we don't get paid to get killed to save people's stuff," he said.
Some fire safety experts fault the news media for glamorizing and sensationalizing firefighters' actions, saying it creates an unattainable standard. Some firefighters might take needless risks to prove their courage, they say.
Fire safety officials at a 2005 symposium identified the issue as one of the more pressing problems in firefighting and a contributing factor in firefighter fatalities. The National Fire Service Research Agenda Symposium was made up of several national fire safety groups and agencies, including the National Fallen Firefighters Foundation, the National Institute for Standards and Technology and the U.S. Fire Administration.
"The current fire service culture is widely recognized as a barrier to making important improvements in firefighter safety and health," a symposium report concluded. "Cultural values often place bravado and heroism ahead of firefighter safety."
Brian Crawford, an assistant fire chief in Shreveport, La., recently wrote an article on the topic for Fire Chief magazine.
Crawford, who holds a master's degree in industrial psychology, spoke only in general terms about the problem and said he has no direct knowledge of Charleston's department or the furniture store tragedy.
"There is an image of heroism and glamor in the firefighting profession that has to be lived up to," he said. "Unfortunately, trying to live up to that image gets us killed. I call it the 'duty-to-die syndrome.' "
He received calls and e-mails from firefighters all over the world in response to the article. One Canadian fire chief wrote about two firefighters from his department who received medals after a daring rescue. "It was a proud moment for those two firefighters and their families. The reality of the situation was they split up and broke several standing orders to do what was required. They should have been given days off instead of a medal."
Crawford said it starts at the hiring stage. "If that person says it's about putting your life on the line every day, it's the responsibility of that department to provide them with a realistic job description."
He said much of firefighting is tedious and aimed at preventing fires, through inspections and education.
"That's the worst, a firefighter saying, 'That's the way I want to die,' " he said. "It's not about being a hero. It's about being a public servant and getting home to your family at the end of the day."
Thomas said the fire service attracts dedicated, action-oriented people who want to help others and are prepared to take risks in doing so. Like the nine men who died, many continue to give back to their communities outside of work, simply wanting to be of service. "I don't think it's problem," he said. "I think that's just the way firefighters are."
Even after the June 18 fire, applications continue to arrive at the Charleston Fire Department from people eager to serve and put their lives on the line, Thomas said.
"Will I have trouble hiring nine people?" he said. "Not one bit."
Noah Haglund contributed to this report.
Reach Glenn Smith at 937-5556 or gsmith@postandcourier.com. Reach Ron Menchaca at 937-5724 or rmenchaca@postandcourier.com.
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Comments
This article has 78 comment(s)
Posted by JonWithnal on July 1, 2007 at 2:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Finally, some news about firemen. Keep it up, Woodward and Bernstein. We were beginning to worry that we'd run out of fireman stories.
Posted by fire_and_life_safety on July 1, 2007 at 2:49 a.m. (Suggest removal)
After 31 years in every level of the fire service, I too bleed fire truck red and probably have fire hose for veins, but enough has been said about the need for the firefighter of today needing to be a "leather-lunged smoke eater." In the past, firefighters wore tin helmets and rubber coats. We arrived on the fire scene, oblivious to the hazards, raced into the building, charged blindly up three flights of stairs (sometimes without a hose line), coughing and "vomiting" from the smoke and heat, no radios (only trumpets or bullhorns for communications), only to find the department Fire Chief "right in there with us." Today, we have available to us top of the line protective clothing that provides a protective ensemble for our safety, self-contained breathing apparatus that equals anything NASA would provide to Space Shuttle personnel, state of the art equipment such as thermal imaging technology, personal alert devices that can locate a downed firefighter if he doesn't move for a predetermed period of time, instant point to point comminications equipment, and nationally certified training programs developed by recognized professional in our field. Fire ground tactics and incident command have come a long way since the days of Lloyd Layman (those of us old-time fire officers will remember that name and tactical training manual.) With all due respect for the hold overs from the old days of firefighting, as I read the articles printed and hear the statements made, I keep expecting to hear Tevye, the peasant milkman played by Topal in Fiddler on the Roof, shouting "Tradition" as if it were sacred. (But in the end, even he realized that some traditions are not worth keeping.) My heart still says, "We rush in, while others are rushing out." But training by nationally recognized fire officers, experience gained through study of modern incident command tactics, and evaluation of lessons learned through others mistakes brings to mind another similar, but often tragic quote ... "Fools rush in where angels fear to tread." May we all learn from the tragic experience that we have had here in Charleston, and honor the "Charleston 9" by working to try and not let history repeat itself in the Historic City.
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 1, 2007 at 8:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)
What an unbelievable attitude from these people, the mayor included. There have been so many changes in the fire service today that make the job safer. Did they use a Thermal Imaging Camera, which would have showed the heat build up above the ceiling or pinpoint the fire? Nfpa, Niosh, IAFC, IAFF and many other agencies have been working diligently to make our workplace safer, manning clauses, accountability, RIT, where do these leaders get off doing things their own way when their are federal guidelines and mandates which have been enacted.
Posted by bvfd271 on July 1, 2007 at 8:35 a.m. (Suggest removal)
How arrogant can anyone be,in regards to Joe Riely's statement that it makes no sense to have an experienced Commander away from the action.Thats exactly where the Incident Commander needs to be,so that any thing that occurs,or any indications of trouble can be witnessed by the Incident Commander,that otherwise may not be seen while inside.The Mayor and Chief;s arrogant attitude will only serve to cause the loss of life or more Firefighters,as if the Charleston FD has not sufffered enough.The comment was made that people who were making comments are not aware of how it is in the Fire Service.Well,it appears to me,neither does Joe Riley.All Joe Riley is doing is giving praise to the Chief for a so called "Good Job" at running the CFD,and using the tragic event a Political Tool for Himself and the CFD.I think both the mAyor and Chief should tender thier resignations and a new Fire Chief be hired,one who modernize the Fire Department and the voters should elect a new Mayor who is not so arrogant and will not use the events as a political game.Let me add,Yes i am a Firefighter,who has 27 years experience as a Firefighter.I am now a Volunterr Firefighter and we always have an Icident Commander outside over seeing the Firefighting Oerations,and we also have a Safety Officer outside as well.Both have radios as do all personnel inside attacking the fire,and it works as no one has been lost.Charleston FD definitely needs to be brought up to standards of modern times.This is not the Stone Age anymore.Get with the program Chief.
Posted by easy on July 1, 2007 at 8:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Once again THE CHIEF as well as HIS MAYOR, have shown how out of date, out of touch and out of control they are. And the citizen of Charleston are allowing them to continue to place the firefighters lives at risk on each call they respond to. Traditional, get a grip, it is 2007 CHIEF not 1907. Times have changed. Tradituion has it's place, not just in the fire service but everywhere. However can you CHIEF or MAYOR, tell us what was so historic about the Sofa Super Store ? Can you tell any of us what the reason for believing that one life was worth loosing in a funiture store fire, that your traditionial head on tactics have caused. I hope you are still not sleeping at night, and not just the families of the 9 personnel, but all who you taught to trust in you and adopt your attitude for the way emergency services are preformed in your department, take a hard look and question why ?
If you want to keep speaking about the past, history,tradition. Well then Remember that it always repeats it'self. Are you ready for that?
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 1, 2007 at 9:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Kudos to the Post and Courier for their great coverage of this tragedy. Hopefully a lot of people are watching these forums, most posts from experienced firefighters around the country who saw the initial videos and could get a pretty good idea what happened here.
The attitude of the chief and mayor are both unbelievable and unacceptable, hopefully the media will stay on top of this issue until these people are replaced or at least will start to accept today's standards and practices.
Keep up the great work everyone at the Post & Courier!
Posted by trm2105 on July 1, 2007 at 9:19 a.m. (Suggest removal)
So nine lost their lives saving a bunch of love seats because tradition is valued more than life in this town. Stubborn southern bull-headedness wins again.
Posted by easy on July 1, 2007 at 9:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Hey CHIEF, looking at your last statement in this article I ask you this. When you have to hire the 9 replacements for each one of those you lost, I want you to look each one that you interview in the eyes and ask them, will you die for me ? Watch their faces and body language before they answer, that is if you have the ^%$$# to do that...
Posted by Berkeley on July 1, 2007 at 9:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)
More "after the fact" comments taking up air space.
It's quick to point a finger NOW, but take this tragic event and learn from it. I'm sure Rusty Thomas was doing all he could do with what $$$$ he had.
The fire depts. can only purchase, train, hire "with in their budgeted monies" and if the $$$ isn't there, there's nothing you can do, except work with what you have, turn what you have into a workable situation.
For those who are quick to criticise, VOLUNTEER and do more to help, paid or volunteer organizations. I don't know of a fire department that wouldn't appreciate the help and support for drinks, sweat towels, like the the "gatorade crew", did many years ago for a volunteer fire department, who in the 1980's did have "the first trained, teenage female firefighter, who did go into a burning building with two back up firefighters. She was called the "silver bullet" (I have the pictures to proove it.)
But that's a moot point. A tragedy happened. Take what you've learned about the situation:
BACK UP AND REGROUP and train like crazy for the next time.
People, support these intities.
Posted by meow on July 1, 2007 at 9:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)
True, you cannot learn fire fighting from a book. You cannot learn leadership skills from a book either.
Thanks to Mayor Riley and his infinite wisdom on the Incident Command System. I guess the other 49 states have it wrong. Maybe we could give them some pointers on dealing with fires. While we are at it, maybe we could also help them with their education systems as well.
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 1, 2007 at 10:04 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Berkley, the Incident Command System is a concept not an object. This is not a $$$$ item, just something that can be attained with some regular training and the SOG's to back it up. This tragedy was NOT due to lack of funding on the fire departments part.
Posted by georgeburns on July 1, 2007 at 10:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I feel if you are the Chief of Firemen & women, you should never make the statement you called your BEST to the fired. All Fire Station you trained or the ones your the chief over (they all should be your BEST).If Wappoo Road and Wappoo and Ashley River was call your best!!! The 9' still will be here. The fire wouldn't been in such of a rage.But, we know you are Riley's boy! He will cover you if he thought you did the best thing. How could you sleep at night? Oh! I forgot you'll don't hurt as much as those who lost their love ones.The fire was a set up. The furniture couldn't be sold.The Store Manager had to think of something so he won't have to payout of his pocket,for merchandise not being sold."Why not let the Employees smoke near the Chemical's, easy fire! It will look like an ACCIDENT!!!!!!!!!!! Think again????????? LET'S PULL OUT THE MONEY( I FEEL THE FAMILY OF THE 9' SHOULD SUE!!(THE MAYOR, CHIEF, STORE MANAGER) THEY ALL ARE AT FAULT.
Posted by bootlicked on July 1, 2007 at 11:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Pedigree? Give me a break!!! If you went according to your pedigree you would be a sorry mechanic like your dad who ran the dept from the shop. Then you would have already retired and get paid by the city to be a consultant to help order a fire truck(eng.3)that has to stay parked when it rains. Poor Tommy he hasn't been sleeping at night since ya'll made him a chief. As far as the disgruntled employee quote by rusty that is what he probably says about all of the great men and women that actually risked his or her life everyday they worked under his good ol' boy system to protect the citizens and historic houses in the great city of CHARLESTON. That disgruntled employee definitely knows more about firefighting than riley,the flip that house childhood friend, those juvenile delinquent kids,the kids that you coached, or anyone else that is baffled by your bull. MAYBE YOU SHOULD GO STRICTLY TO COACHING OR SELLING HOUSES OR MAYYBE YOU CAN GET A JOB SELLING FURNITURE!!!!!!!! Give a fool enough rope and he'll hang himself.
Posted by tfpoor on July 1, 2007 at 11:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I think the mayor and chief should zip it for a while. You know the second guessing is coming when 9 heros die, even from your own. I have grown weary hearing about their techniques, obviously flawed and not up to national standards. The chiefs comments I think hold true if your fighting fires in the downtown area. You could have a fire the magnitude of the 1861 fire if you don't fight it agressively. But where the sofa super store was located??? I don't know. Everyone needs to cool it for a while. Let the dust settle and the results get in!
Posted by SLK29406 on July 1, 2007 at 11:59 a.m. (Suggest removal)
This is such a tragic event, but let us consider this also. How many lives were spared that night? Two employees were saved, since this fire was next to a gas station (which wasn't shown on TV), if that exploded, how many more lives would have been taken that night? The whole neighborhood would have been destroyed, hundreds of people would have been killed. I do believe that these wonderful heroes knew that. In addition to saving the homes behind the Sofa Super Store and the gas station, they prevented what would have been a disaster of epic proportions.
Unfortunately, we all have 20/20 hindsight. I believe sprinkler systems would have helped, fire retardent materials in all furniture should be mandatory, knowing a structure could have helped also. There are so many fires in Charleston that do not make the news. The most common fire hazards are kitchens and bedrooms. Electrical fires happen everyday.
Let us learn from our mistakes, but lets praise our heroes for the lives that they saved that awful night. I believe that these heroes knew the risks and were willing to do what they thought was in the best interest of all. Let us not forget the firefighters who did make it out alive that night. Certainly they need our kind words, appreciation and understanding too. They will carry the memory of this event for the rest of their lives as well and will forever be marked by it.
Posted by JKomandosky on July 1, 2007 at 12:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Every one on he has a good point, Here we are trying to better educate firefighter and samll thing like tradition get's in the way, After 22 years both as a Vol and Paid FF I am getting sick of hearing We would do the samething agian, So what well it cost the next time? the truth is that the Fire Service as a whole has a problem with new ideas, new technology,or just anything new, If we can not educate are self how can we educate the public. I an remined of something that is still hanging a that the Station,( YOU can not Win) Becouae the public still have there own ideas of what the fire service should be thank's to the Media, TV, Movis,
Posted by bootlicked on July 1, 2007 at 12:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'LL NEVER FORGET BECUASE I PERSONALLY KNEW 6 OF THE NINE BRAVE SOULS! I ALSO HAVE MANY YEARS OF EXPERIENCE IN THE FIRE SERVICE AND I'M A STATE CERTIFIED FIREMAN WITH QUITE A FEW HOURS TOWARDS A FIRE SCIENCE DEGREE.I HOPE THE FIRE MIGHT JUST END RUSTY'S CAREER TOO BAD THAT THIS MIGHT BE WHAT DOES IT.OH RILEY THE MALONIES, GREENBURG, NOW RUSTY HOPE THE PEOPLE OF THIS GREAT CITY SEE WHAT MANY INFORMED CITIZENS AND PUBLIC SERVANTS SEE!!!!!!!!!
Posted by bigpappapump77 on July 1, 2007 at 12:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It's obvious that the Post & Courier has nothing else to report on. To the Post & Courier, please don't "milk" this tradegy anymore for the sake of selling your product.
Posted by bootlicked on July 1, 2007 at 12:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)
BIGPAPPAPUMP YOU MUST BE A RUSTY RANGER. IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT YOU SEE GET OFF OF YOUR COMPUTER.THEIR SHOULD BE SOMEONE ON EVERY STREET CORNER RAISING HELL ABOUT THIS TRAGIC AND VERY UNFORTUNATE SITUATION.
Posted by burton on July 1, 2007 at 12:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I believe that when the state and ATF reports come out, they will be very critical of the FD's techniques. It's just like a motorcycle rider: they may have been riding for 30 years but they may have been riding wrongly for 30 years and then that one event comes along that highlights the bad techniques they have been using all those years and it causes them to lose their life. I blame the voters of the City of Charleston that have elected Joe Riley for the past 30 years! When a man has been in office that long, he thinks he is God and no one can tell him anything. I have respect for the Chief and his position but he needs to chill on the arrogance. It's not the sign of a good leader. I have longed said that SC is one of the most backwards states that I have ever lived in. Get with the times!
At the end of the day, it's about making sure that there is good leadership in place that will make the recommended changes so that this tragic event will never happen again. I also predict that some of the families will sue once the reports come out.
Posted by FS24C on July 1, 2007 at 5:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I'm going to start off by saying I fully understand there is more that the general public (me included) doesn't know about this incident then they do know. Like many that are posting here I am a firefighter. (driver, 9 yrs., large urban dept.) In the business I worked in before becoming a firefighter I once had a manager tell me "You cannot supervise your operation if your in it." That has proven to be one of the most accurate statements ever. The tendency to lose situational awareness as a person gets more involved at the task level is enormous. If the person with the white helmet still has the compelling need to be in the operation maybe they should give up the white helmet. The IC needs to rely on their officers to use good tactics, judgement and provide good information and feedback as to conditions and progress on the task. The whole idea behind incident command is for somebody to be looking at the big picture and making decisions based on all the information. My last thought is that the NIOSH report, particularly the timeline will help us all learn something from this tragedy.
Posted by Fire_Buff on July 1, 2007 at 6:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Here's a question from left field. In addition to the arrogance showed by the chief and mayor about how their way is better than the way of the rest of the U.S. firefighting world, I noticed the mention that the chief drives his new trucks from Ohio and Wisconsin. What the heck does that mean?
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the 3rd or 4th largest fire truck builder in the United States located right outside Charleston? Wouldn't it make sense for a city that tries to lure jobs to its community to buy it's fire trucks from a local company with a national name (and keep the tax base in Charleston) than going to the Rust Belt to buy trucks that can easily be build in SC? I would hope Chief Thomas does not have his hand out from that local company seeking help in this time of need.
Just an observation to an article that digs deep and is not milking this tragedy. Keep up the investigation and be the first to report on the results of the state and federal investigation.
Posted by Rob on July 1, 2007 at 7:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Milk this story!! The Post and Courier is trying to save lives with their reporting, otherwise we wouldn't know any of this disturbing information. The P&C is performing a great public service. We got to get past this tragic event emotionally and prepare for the next and losing more firefighters is not an option. Chief Rusty Thomas is proving he is a poor administrator by STONEWALLING on a review of the Department's policy and procedures under which firefighter lives were lost. He said he wouldn't do anything differently. If he would do the same thing again under similar circumstance we would lose more firefighters. This man is dangerous!! He wouldn't last a week in the private sector with an attitude like his. He is Mayor Joe's personal Fire Chief crony (just like his dad was) and the Mayor needs to intervene or be held accountable in the next election. I just hope we don't lose any more firefighters under this incompetent leadership in the meantime.
Posted by firejake on July 1, 2007 at 8:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
buff, thats a whole topic of discussion of its own entirely. And a touchy one at that between firefighters. Looks like Sutphen ladders and Pierce engines? Nice choices IMO, nothing better on the market!
Posted by ProudIAFFMember on July 1, 2007 at 8:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow, I am absolutely amazed, I have not heard such reactionary drivel for many years, I await the outcome of the many investigations to follow, the Chief and mayor,are quite possibly criminally negligent.
A politician has no business questioning fire fighting standards and the Chief obviously has no clue. One thing is clear, without state legislation that hamstrings the effectiveness of the union local this type of irresponsible leadership would not be able to exist.
To those that think this story is over. We will not allow our 9 brothers to have died in vain. Those whose irresponsible actions and attitudes encouraged the atmosphere that allowed this tragedy to occur will pay the price they so richly deserve for their stupidity.
Posted by RFDE5 on July 1, 2007 at 8:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Maybe changes will be made after an investigation, but as a firefigther from the North East fires should be fought aggressively while providing for safety first. There were people trapped inside the store. The FD saved them but in the process lost nine. Since the last CFD LODD in 1965, how many civilians have been pulled from a fire in Charleston? This sounds like a very good FD with officers and firefighters who do the job well. Changes and lessons learned will be forthcoming but lets not forget that people sometimes get trapped inside a fire will need an aggressive and well trained FD to save them.
Posted by grcjrsc on July 1, 2007 at 9:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)
First and foremost may good bless the families and friends of the Charleston Nine, and the Charleston Fire Department.
To all of those who are so critical of the Charleston Fire Department and it chief’s handling of this tragic situations I have a few questions.
• Had the fire department decided to assume a defensive posture at the Sofa Super Center and nine civilians were killed, would you be still be calling for the chief to resign and the mayor to be replaced?
• If you or a member of your family were trapped in such an inferno, would you be ok with the fire department assuming a defensive posture?
• The Charleston Fire Department has earned a class 1 ISO rating, and many questions have been raised around the adequacy of the training received the officers and firefighters of the department. Training is 9% of the ISO rating criteria, so if the training is inadequate, how do you explain the class 1 rating from ISO?
• Why does the president of the local IAFF feel it necessary to exploit this tragedy to settle what seems to be a personal feud between him and the Charleston Fire Department and/or its chief?
• Do you believe that overarching federal regulations of the “right way” to do things is better than local judgment? If Charleston’s implementation of the incident command systems, and firefighting standards have worked for them in the past, and earned them a class 1 ISO rating then maybe it works best for them. Do you believe that all local fire officials should be stripped of there authority and be required to fight fire “by the book” as authorized by the federal government? Is one size fits all the best way run the fire service?
Posted by ChiefC1 on July 1, 2007 at 9:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)
The biggest problem with the fire service is captured in the following statement:
"two hundred years of tradition unimpeded by progress"
Tradition kills - heed the recommendations of the national agencies that investigate firefighter deaths. I've had to progress in my 34 year career - it isn't easy, but experience has taught me that it is much safer.
Put the past behind, progress forward!
Posted by bootlicked on July 1, 2007 at 9:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
ST.ANDREWS FIREMEN SAVED THE GUY BY CUTTING OUT A HOLE IN THE SIDE OF THE BUILDING WHERE HE WAS TRAPPED. I'M DEFINITELY NOT SAYING THE FINE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE CFD WERE NOT CAPABLE BECAUSE THE ARE SOME OF THE BEST.I JUST DON'T KNOW WHERE EVERYONE KEEPS GETTING VICTIMS TRAPPED INSIDE. THOSE BRAVE FIREMEN FROM THE CITY DID EXACTLY WHAT THE WERE TRAINED TO DO BUT IN A HAZARDOUS SMOKEFILLED ENVIRONMENT TOU NEED EYES AND EARS ON EVERY SIDE OF THE FIRE(OUTSIDE). THEY SHOULD HAVE BEEN CALLED OUT SOONER BUT RUSTY NEVER WANTS TO LOSE A BIULDING ESPECIALY IF IT IS OF HISTORICAL VALUE. GOD BE WITH THE FINE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE CFD AND REMEMBER IF YOU DON'T FEEL SAFE WHO CARES ABOUT WHAT RUSTY THINKS HE WILL ALWAYS BE GOING HOME. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO SEE SOMETHING SCARY STOP BY AND TALK SHOP WITH THEIR TRAINING DEPT. OR TAKE A GANDER AT THEIR S.O.P'S.OH YEAH THE HAVE SAVED MANY OVER THE YEARS AND ALWAYS HAVE EVEN BEFORE THE THOMAS CLAN CAME TO POWER.HOW ABOUT ONE BETTER STOP AND TALK SHOP WITH T. THOMAS A REAL BRAINIACK.IT SEEMS RILEY IS EVEN AN EXPERT NOW.
Posted by firemedic on July 1, 2007 at 10:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)
We will always remember the Charleston 9
I don't know enough of the Chief to call for a resignation. I do know that you have to fight fire agressively... BUT in doing so you can't igonore signs. I read one of the first few interviews, where one of the IC's (whether it was the Chief or not I don't remember)saw smoke coming from the ceiling tiles in the showroom, No one was assigned to pull ceiling and ensure it wasn't a fire. He admitted he assumed it was from the warehouse and moved on... What a tragedy that signs were noticed but not pursued...Mistakes were made. If we as firefighters aren't going to learn from those mistakes then our brothers have died in vain. As front line firefighters we must work toward ensuring that evryone has the best training possible.
Posted by santee on July 1, 2007 at 10:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I have been a firefighter for nine years. There is alot of talk about tradition in these statements, but since I have been in I have seen many changes for the better in the fire service. Maybe the only thing that has stayed the same was the brotherhood that we share. But as far as training it only gets better, and the Cheif's job is to send us there to get it and that is what the Cheif did! You have to meet a certain amount of training and ability before the South Carolina Fire Academy even let's you step foot on that truck. And as for a comment I read from easy - when I went through my interview the Chief asked me "are you willing to give your life for the life of someone else" and my answer was the same as all of my brothers and that was yes. And I will stand by my answer even is something does go wrong on a fire scene whether or not it is anyone's fault or not.
Posted by whokilled9 on July 1, 2007 at 11:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Here are your answers, grcjrsc;
1. There weren't nine civilians in jeopardy. It was a structure and property, both replaceable.
2. Inferno? Inferno implies a fire beyond control. And again no civilian human life was at risk when 16 men were sent in. To answer your question directly, if my children were in an inferno I would not expect men to sacrifice there lives with little to no possibility of any life (my children or firefighters)coming out.
3. Class 1 ISO rating? A majority of the ISO rating has to do with infrastructure (water supply, distance from the closest fire house to your home or business and equipment). By your own admission training only accounts for 9% of the rating. If you were to look at 9% of a person or business would you be comfortable saying they were class 1?
4. As far as the president of the local union is concerned he is obligated to evaluate safety in the work place.
5. Are the federal regulations the "right way"? YES YES AND YES.
When a person, business or government refuses to self-asses, it is time for a higher body to take control.
Posted by TopAssistant on July 1, 2007 at 11:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Assistant Fire Chief Larry Garvin is absolutely wrong to enter the building unless he turns the Incident Command duties over to another fire officer who remains on the outside. It is wrong, wrong, wrong for him to leave his post. I understand the governor signed a law requiring all departments plans meet or exceeds NIMS.
Are the fire officers, including the fire chief certified to NFPA 1021: Standard for Fire Officer Professional Qualifications?
It would also be interesting to review, if any, their pre-incident plan for this building as recommended by NFPA 1620: Recommendations for Pre-Incident Planning. This document provides criteria for evaluating the protection, construction, and operational features of specific occupancies to develop a pre-incident plan that should be used by responding personnel to manage fires and other emergencies in such occupancies using the available resources.
During court hearings, of which there will obviously be, all officers will need to provide their training records, level of certification, Standard Operating Procedures (SOP) and Standard Operating Guides (SOG) during the court hearing on the fire. There will be a lawsuit against the city, mayor, fire department, and fire chief for wrongful death or whatever they call it in SC. The only way these antiquated departments will ever change is through lawsuits. I know it is hard to understand but the law enforcement community went through it years ago when they had similar lawsuits. Change is tough especially for traditional departments. We are 350 years of tradition unhampered by progress.
When the fire chief says he does not know whether his department’s policies mirror federal and state guidelines for managing a fire scene is almost enough to bury him in a legal challenge. It is his job to know, he is the fire chief! This is why I am against hiring good-ole boys who have been on the department for years and all they have is a drivers’ license.
The fire chief says, "He can get into the fire," Thomas said. He said doing so does not compromise his commander's ability. OK, he just sunk his ship. The antiquated “policy” is so off the wall; this is probably the one thing that could have killed the firefighters.
I am stunned at such stupidity of this statement in the paper, "I'm just going to let you know we have our own incident command system. We have it written that the highest-ranking official is automatically in charge. I don't care how it is anyplace else." Has this fire chief ever been to any type of formal Incident Command training or did he just walk past the fire department when they handed out fire chief position or is he a former used car salesman and is a brother-in-law to the mayor?
It would be a good idea if the mayor, fire chief and fire officers keep their traps shut until the investigations done showing their faults, of which there will be many.
Posted by lfd760 on July 1, 2007 at 11:53 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If they abide by NFPA standards, or go above and beyond the NFPA standard, as they do, why is everyone complaining? They do the job and do it right, leave them alone and let them have their space during this time. I surely hope all Fire Depts don't this many problems with people that have no idea about what happened because most people complaining were not there!!!! Chief Thomas you are a good man outside the Fire Dept. and a great Chief, I only wish I could work for a man like he is!!!!! Basically what we have here is just like any other fire dept out there "There are to many chiefs and not enough indians"
Posted by bootlicked on July 2, 2007 at 12:01 a.m. (Suggest removal)
WELL 760 THEY SHOULD BE HIRING MAY GOD LOOK OUT FOR YOU TOO. MUST BE ANOTHER FRIEND,BASEBALL PLAYER,LOCAL CELEB,OR JUST SOMEONE ELSE THAT CAN'T HAVE A CLUE ABOUT THE FIRE SERVICE.
Posted by ATLfiremedic on July 2, 2007 at 9:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I agree that the Charleston Fire Department needs time to heal, evaluate, and then taken the necessary measures to ensure that a similar tragedy does not happen in the future. All of the department is searching for answers right now and piling on criticism is not going to help them make some very difficult and tough decisions about their future and the future safety of their firefighters. However, the leadership of the city and department needs to heed the official reports findings (when they are released) and recommendations for changes - that without question will be forthcoming. To not do so would be negligence and open them up for more liability when future accidents occur. The story referenced in the article "Duty to Die" about deadly fire service culture is an excellent training tool and one that is now used at our Academy: http://firechief.com/leadership/firefigh... . From this point on nothing said here or elsewhere, or even in the courtrooms later, will bring those nine brothers back but hopefully will keep the rest of you and your crews safe. And that's what's it’s about after all. God bless the families.
Posted by chiefswife on July 2, 2007 at 11:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I can understand that all involved need time to heal, but evaluation and changes cannot afford to be put off until the healing process is complete. Each passing day brings the opportunity for another such tragic event to occur. CFD can honor the 9 firefighters by ensuring that something like this does not happen again.
Posted by SLK29406 on July 2, 2007 at 12:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am sure many changes will occur, even if the Chief and Mayor accept them reluctanly. "Lessons Learned". I am sure better code enforcement laws pertaining to "big Box" warehouses will occur. Manufacturers of furniture already have some progress in fire redardant materials. Perhaps those "big boxes" will not be next to gas stations, plans for inspections of these buildings can be entered into a data base so that the dispatchers can inform, ahead of time, what the hazards are.
For the firemen who have written here, you are magnificent men and women, brave and courageous above and beyond the call of duty. I know that there is a strong bond between all of you and you mourn the loss of your brothers, my very deepest condolences to all of you. Hopefully, this will bring the necessary changes to help insure your safety. Stay safe........
Posted by BC66 on July 2, 2007 at 1:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)
It is with utter dismay that I read of accounts of the fire and it's aftermath that show the lack of organization at this fire scene.
I beleive that the CFD has had their share of fires, and saved lives that an aggressive one dimentional attack has worked. In this case it is apparent that the company, and command officers failed to heed the warning signs that the fire was giving them. As any properly trained firefighter can attest to, a fire will tell you many things by its smoke, heat, location, and intensity. It is up to us to listen to what it is saying and make strategic and tactical decisions based on current conditions.
If the CFD had updated it's ICS system to just the one little step of having an incident commander that is in place to command and control multiple companies operating in a known high risk building with active fire impinging on it's exterior that could have read the smoke and fire conditions, listened to what his company officers were telling him, and used his many years of expierence to look at this fire from many different angles I beleive there would have been a different outcome, that did not happen and look at the end result.
What is apparent from all the comments that are coming in on this issue is we as a brotherhood of firefighters accross America and abroad do not want to see history repeat itself in Charleston or anywhere else due to ineffective command and control, and lack of use of available training and technology such as thermal imaging cameras that could have fore told of the impending flashover and then collapse .
This incident can not and I believe will not be swept under the rug to save a few mens jobs or the departments reputation. Let the facts speak for themselves and hold the decision makers from the Mayor, City counsel members and Fire Officers accountable in an effort to never have this happen again.
Posted by grcjrsc on July 2, 2007 at 2:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Follow up to the comments to whokilled9:
1. The fire department was advised by several employees of the store that more civilians were trapped, regardless of the facts revealed later they were required to try and mount a rescue to save lives. The mission of the fire service is to save lives and property.
2. Inferno implies an out of control fire, a situation encountered by firefighters on a regular basis. I wouldn't expect anyone to go in to a totally hopeless situation with no chance of survival(i.e. suicide mission). However in a marginal situation, I would hope that the officers and men would be aggressive enough mount a rescue if they believed that there was a reasonable chance for survival.
3. Training is 9% of the overall rating in a 100 point system. In order to get a class 1 rating you must score 90 or above, so if the training is as bad as some have stated then the department must be doing everything else perfect in order to be class 1, because if only 2 more points were deducted then they would be at best be a class 2 department. If the polices, procedures and equipment are as poor as characterized by some of the critics of the chief and the fire department I don't see how even a class 3 or 4 would be possible.
4. Agree that that the president of the local IAFF, should be concerned with the well being of the firefighters of the city of Charleston and with the deaths of the 9 firefighters. It appears from the articles published about the situation and the press conferences given that he is going about his duties in a very confrontational manner. It appears that he and the state organization are using this tragedy to advance the agenda of the IAFF in South Carolina. This is typical of AFL-CIO affiliated organizations, utilize whatever means necessary to advance there agenda, and increase membership.
---Continued Below---
Posted by ivrygrl on July 2, 2007 at 2:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)
GeorgeBurns writes: " The furniture couldn't be sold.The Store Manager had to think of something so he won't have to payout of his pocket,for merchandise not being sold."Why not let the Employees smoke near the Chemical's, easy fire! It will look like an ACCIDENT!!!!!!!!!!! "
Ignorance....pure ignorance. That store was the cornerstone of the business. Because of the tragedy, the owner is paying out of pocket. In order for his employees to get a paycheck, he paid out of his personal account. He kept them ALL on for two weeks, even though he didn't have work for all of them. He made the decision to keep the business open for the sake of his employees (and they still don't know if insurance will cover losses). Of course, he won't say these things, because his only concern is not in defending himself, but is remembering the nine that fell in his store, in being respectful of their memory and in providing for his employees.
This was a TRAGIC accident. And we could sit and point fingers all day long. But, the real homage that should be paid to these men (our lost nine), should be the lesson that can be gained and the lives that could be preserved in the future. Nothing is worth the loss of these men. Nothing is worth the pain and suffering of their families. The employees at Sofa Super Store deal with this tragedy on a daily basis. They are dealing with picking up and going on with the knowledge that nine courageous men were lost in their store. I am sure that every one of the people who have been named in unfounded accusations wonder, even before accused, what they could have done to prevent this tragedy. Further accusations of Rusty Thomas, the owner of Sofa Super Store, the firefighters, etc... is only rubbing salt in an already stinging wound.
There are only three groups of people in a tragedy like this: The victims, the supporters, and the people who stand on the sidelines and point fingers and pass judgement.
God Bless the Charleston Fire Department for puting your lives on the line to save our families. God bless the families of the nine, whose only fault was in loving the men who felt the call to serve. May we all heal from this together.
Posted by grcjrsc on July 2, 2007 at 2:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
---Continued From Above---
5. It is been shown time and time again that federal regulation of local matters only leads to more bureaucracy and less efficiency. Fires, and other emergency situations are dynamic situations that require on scene commanders to have great latitude in their decision making authority. They must me able to exercise their authority and make decisions without fear of reprisals for making decisions. Even when all the right decisions are made things can go wrong, and despite the mentality of some, you can not efficiently and effectively fight fire out of a book or by utilizing a one size fits all federally mandated way. Each locality has it own set of obstacles that must be overcome. A local official making local decisions is almost always the best way to go. Bureaucracy is an enemy, and is just as dangerous as fire.
Posted by brownnose55 on July 2, 2007 at 3:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
it most be nice to have nothing else to do but talk down about people. i have always heard that all firemen go to heaven and i do believe that. but with these kinds of comments you all deserve to go to HELL. shame on you. we can say this and that should have been done, but when it is your time to go then there is nothing you can do about it. and all this pointing fingers is so childish. maybe you guys should get ready for school to start back. you people should take some of this energy that you are putting on this page and spend more time with your familys. life is to short which you all should know. as far as the ones that are complaining they are the same ones that are always up the chiefs but. things never change.
Posted by brownnose55 on July 2, 2007 at 4:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)
and another thing. if you have such a problem with the City of Charleston Fire Department move back north thats more than likely where you came from.
Posted by bombero on July 2, 2007 at 4:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Wow! As a twenty-plus year veteran of the fire service in the southwest, I can't believe what I just read! It is hard to imagine that there is that type of mentality at the Chief's level in the year 2007! If he really wants a traditional department then go back to horses pulling the hand pumps. As a fire professional I am embarrassed and insulted by his ignorance.
I hired on in the days when bravado was expected, but was fortunate enough to live through to the years when a more analyzed fire attack was performed. Chief Thomas needs to retire before he forces the death of more in Charleston. It sounds like it is time for Charleston's firefighter to be allowed to use the nationally recognized risk management model, which essentially states:
- We will risk our lives significantly to save another life.
- We will risk our lives a little to save property which is not lost.
- We will not risk our lives at all for that which is already lost or not savable.
I can understand the value of the historical buildings in Charleston, but there is NO BUILDING WORTH A HUMAN LIFE! There are nine families whose lives have forever changed. There will be no Dad to walk his daughter down the aisle on her wedding or to play catch with his son. There will be no son to call his Mom on Mother’s Day. There will be no Grandpa to spoil his grandchildren and tell stories about his career. Maybe Chief Thomas can give these families a “saved” historic artifact, or perhaps a saved sofa to fulfill these needs.
These fine men that lost their lives doing what they were told was best leave behind nine families that were trying to create their own historical district – a family history. Step aside Chief Thomas, it is time for a change. You are a little bit "Rusty".
Posted by twobars on July 2, 2007 at 5:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)
brownnose55 you are definetly not a firefighter or maybe as your name implies your head is up somewhere else other than using yours. I have a problem that 9 of our brothers died period. If that happened then something needs to change. To stand there and be stupid and say I would not change a thing and would do it again is what is causing the comments on this site. I have been a firefighter for 39 years 25 in a career department. I have also been an instructor in our state. The laws and policies in the states and the country have come from many years of experience and injuries and deaths. We grieve and sympathize with all involved but the chief and the mayor of this city are the ones sprouting this garbage before the investigations. Over the years we have learned that we will do all in our power to risk a life to save a life. But after the lives have been accounted for then we will not risk a life to save property. If you in the fire service can not grasp this concept then rethink your career. We need to stop firefighter deaths for things that can be rebuilt. That includes you who are working for departments who won't supply the proper funding for your operations. Stay low in the halls and Stay safe.
Posted by brownnose55 on July 2, 2007 at 6:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)
my head is not anywhere. and as for you maybe it is time you leave the service 39 years in a 25 career department. maybe that is whats wrong with the deaprtments today all these old people do not want to learn anything new. i feel like you need to be in some kind of shape to be a firefighter alot of the guys now a days can not even climb a flight of steps. maybe you should have retired 14 years ago.
Posted by CFD13 on July 2, 2007 at 6:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)
BROWNNOSE55 the war is over buddy.You are a perfect example of why our educational system is ranked 49th.This about 9 dead firemen, and how we can ensure we go home in the mourning.
Posted by brownnose55 on July 2, 2007 at 6:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)
as far as if i am a fireman. who knows i might be your boss
Posted by CFD13 on July 2, 2007 at 6:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)
No, I'm sure your not anyones boss. But there maybe a chiefs spot coming up soon, you should put in for it. You would do great. Now I think Bass fishing is coming on, so let us go and discuss how NOT to lose 9 more people. Since the last it happened no is responsible, and no changes should be made. What a joke
Posted by bootlicked on July 2, 2007 at 9:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I MISS AND LOVE YA'LL EARL,LEWIS,BRAD,MIKE,BILLY,AND MARK AND THE BROTHERS I NEVER GOT TO MEET BUT THE LOVE AND RESPECT IS THE SAME FOR ALL. TO ALL YOU GUYS THAT CAN'T SEEM TO GRASP THE SEVERITY OF THE SITUATION THAT THE CHARLESTON'S BRAVE MEN AND WOMEN HAVE TO ENDURE EVERY SINGLE DAY THEY REPORT TO DUTY UNDER THIS GOOD OL' BOY SYSTEM PLEASE FIND ANOTHER TOPIC TO TALK ABOUT. I PRAY YOU ARE NOT IN THE FIRE SERVICE.IF YOU ARE MAYBE YOU SHOULD FIND A DIFFERENT PROFESSION!!!! THAT LAST WORD IS THE KEY WORD LIKE AS IN A PLACE WHERE PROFESSIONALS WORK NOT THE WANNABEES. PROFESSIONAL AREN'T THE GUYS WISHING TO GET A CALL BUT IF THEY DO ARE HIGHLY TRAINED AND READY TO DO THEIR BEST IN ANY SITUATION. GOD BLESS EVEYONE AND MAY HE HELP EVERYONE AFFILIATED WITH THESE FINE MEN TO GET THROUGH THIS AND LEARN FROM THIS TRAGEDY.
Posted by bootlicked on July 2, 2007 at 9:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
BROWNNOSE SEEMS LIKE A GOOD OL' BOY JUST WHAT RUSTY LIKES TO SURROUND HIMSELF WITH SO THEY WON'T QUESTION ANYTHING HE DOES. AS A BORN AND RAISED SOUTHERN BOY YOU REALLY ARE EMBARRASSING ME WITH YOU MUST BE FROM UP NORTH COMMENTS GO BACK TO KEEPING YOUR NOSE BROWN RUSTY REALLY NEEDS IT NOW.THIS IS WHY RUSTY SAID HE IS HIS OWN HUMAN RESOURCES.DONT GET ME WRONG NOT EVERYONE ON THE CFD IS THIS ARROGANT JUST A FEW LIKE RUSTY.
Posted by whokilled9 on July 2, 2007 at 10:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I have met Earl, Louis, Brad, Mike, Billy, and Mark.
Not only have i met these men, I Lived with them. I ate with them. I slept with them. I drilled (trained) with them. I fought fire with each of these men excluding Cpt. Benke.
For the people reading this that have never been in the fire service you really can't understand, how a co-worker impacts your life, and yours thiers.
My losses are zero when compared to Earl's children and grandchildren. The hurt that i feel for Louis's death is nothing when a young women is now a widow. I can't imagine Brad not being here, Brad's wife has young children. What will her kids image of Brad be? I learned many things from Billy,(he was my Captain) what will his children (young adults) learn from him(he was their Father)? All these men are my brothers, Mark was my first brother. The first fire i ever fought was with him. I instantly trusted him for some reason i believed regardless, he had my back. Mark left behind a son 14, maybe 15, who has his back?
These men and three others did not die in an accident, they were killed.
Posted by bootlicked on July 2, 2007 at 10:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
EARL COOKED THE BEST FRIED CHICKEN EVEN BETTER THAN MY GRANNY'S. I FEEL YOUR PAIN AND YOU MINE STAY SAFE!!!
Posted by SCnative on July 3, 2007 at 9:06 a.m. (Suggest removal)
I wonder how this changes the views of Charlestonians on sprinklers. Remember a few years ago (2004 I think it was) when 6 died in a fire at a Greenville hotel? Legislation wasn't past to require them in hotels because of the Charleston legislators' concerns for old buildings. While it might not necessarily have helped prevent the loss of these brave souls, is it going to take the loss of more life to get safety regulations in place?
Posted by 9oneone on July 3, 2007 at 10:02 a.m. (Suggest removal)
To Chief Rusty Thomas: First, I want to commend you for your obvious personal commitment to your firefighters. You gave wonderful eulogies, not many Fire Chief's across this nation would be able to speak on such a personal level about each of his firefighters. Many Chief's barely even know all of their firefighters names, let alone thier families. To lose 9 friends at one time is unspeakable but you have spoken about them well. Secondly, I want to say that defending your departments policies and procedures may seem arrogant by others but it is at this point truly your only course of action. Even if in the deepest parts of your heart you are listening to the critics and questioning the actions of yourself and the other chief officers, you must remain strong and steady and defend your actions because to do anything else would damage your authority as Chief. And thridly, I hope you are truly listening to the "critics" from the IAFF and NFPA. You are correct, they were not there that evening and they do not know your city, but that doesn't mean what they have to say should be dismissed. They mourn with you over the loss of 9 fellow firefighters, many who serve on these safety committees are there because they have lost a brother and want to prevent further tragedies. They are not desk jockeys, they too are firefighters and even Fire Chief's -- what they have to say can be useful so please keep an open mind. Just from what I have seen from media reports I think you demonstrate good leadership qualities, please remember that being a good leader means opening your mind to change.
Posted by scfdguy on July 3, 2007 at 2:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I now see why the South thought they could win the war...
Regardless, let's take the educational comments that we're all making and use them to subjectively evaluate our current situations. We need to learn from this mistake and make sure it doesn't happen again. If it takes a new chief who will follow basic teachings when it comes to IMS, then let's find him. If it takes a college degree, then let's get one. I don't know what it takes, I'm not a chief officer but I know COMMAND is outside. Essentials IV told me that!!
All I'm saying is that bickering over who is right is actually wrong. I've been following this event and the news articles like there's no tomorrow in effort to LEARN something that might help me in my career down the line and maybe, just maybe save a life.
I can look down the road and see a furniture store, Wal-Mart, and many other large buildings. When I pull up to one of those buildings with heavy involvement I want every bit of knowledge I can have.
Posted by chiefeight on July 3, 2007 at 5:14 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Change can only occur where change is welcomed.
The fire departments of yesteryear are based on 100 years of tradition, unhampered by progress.
We can only hope that the loss of the Charleston 9 will be the wake-up call that causes traditions to questioned and modern firefighting tactics to be employed in Charleston and elsewhere in SC.
Firefighters will continue to be injured and killed as long as OAFs (overly aggressive firefighters) are in charge of incidents involving truss roofs and light-weight constructed structures... for more info read Frank Brannigan's book "Building Construction for the Fire Service".
The above is just my opinion, a 30+ year vetran firefighter with over 20 years of command experience, including 4+ years as the chief of department... and yes I have been in command of an incident where there have been fire service casualties, so I speak from a position authority.
Posted by SmittyOC on July 3, 2007 at 6:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)
As a NJ Firefighter who traveled to SC with other fellow firefighters, I can only hope to not make a return trip.
Those who don't learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them.
The arrogance to state that outsiders basically don't know how to fight fires in Charleston is mindboggling. The last I checked, ignorance of safety factors will take lives no matter what city, state or ISO rating a department obtains.
Posted by fire_and_life_safety_student on July 4, 2007 at 12:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I defense of our much attacked Fire Chief, we have heard him belittled over an over again, but again, in his defense, has anyone bothered to ask what level of Fire Officer Certification the Chief has acheived. NFPA 1021, Standard on Fire Officer Professional Qualifications, is a national recognized standard that is used by many, if not most, fire organizations in this country. The standard identifies the performance requirements necessary to perform the duties of a fire officer and specifically identifies four levels of progression (Fire Officer I, Fire Officer II, Fire Officer III, and Fire Officer IV.) I believe part of the SC Fire Academy Fire Officer curriculum includes this standard.
It's time to give the Fire Chief the chance to defend his honor and let everyone know the level of training and certification he has acheived.
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 4, 2007 at 1:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Just reading through NFPA 1021, here is an interesting quote.
"1.3.1 All of the standards for any level officer shall be performed in accordance with the recognized practices and procedures or as defined by an accepted authority."
Would the Federal Government be an "accepted authority"?
Posted by grcjrsc on July 4, 2007 at 2:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)
If the Federal Government could be considered an "accepted authority" then could the City of Charleston Fire Department be considered the same? I'm sure they have recognized practices and procedures defined in their SOGs or SOPs that work for the local department. Again the locals can do it better than the FEDs 99.9999999998% of the time.
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 4, 2007 at 3:11 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Very interesting, there's the "recognized practices" accepted by the rest of North America and there is Charleston's own recognized practices!
Posted by bootlicked on July 4, 2007 at 3:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HONOR WHEN IT COMES TO ANY OF THE THOMASES. HONOR WOULD BE MAKING PROMOTIONS BASED ON THE BEST MAN FOR THE JOB. HONOR WOULD BE MAKING PROMOTIONS NOT BASED ON SKIN COLOR. PROMOTIONS WOULDN'T BE GIVEN TO PEOPLE WHO SIT BY THEIR SCANNER WISHING FOR A FIRE. I MYSELF HAVE NEVER SEEN SUCH AN OUTPOORING OF SUPPORT FOR SOMEONE WHO SHOULD HAVE NEVER BEEN IN HIS POSITION. HE HATED THE TERI PROGRAM BUT WHEN IT COME TIME FOR HIM TO GO HE STARTED THE RETIRE AND REHIRE PROGRAM. ITS ALL ABOUT HIM AND HIS OWN.HONOR WOULD HAVE BEEN SEEING CHIEF RUSSEL AT THE MEMORIAL OR FUNERALS.SELFISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by easy on July 4, 2007 at 4:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I think the Charleston public should keep Chief Rusted and Mayor Really. They are The Bes, The Bes. If you don't believe that, then just ask them. they will tell you. Keep things as they are, in the dark ages and the firefighters like mushrooms. Like the guy above stated, they only lost one in 20 years,he seems to think that is a good average, but if you take this nine all at one time, lets see, that would be 1 firefighter every 2.2 years. Anyway Chief Rusted said he was not going anywhere, so I guess you can just take that to the bank, cause Mayor Really calls the shots.
And the facts about the reports from the investigations ? Does anyone seems to think that what is shown to the public will be the truth ? Who was it that said, " You want the truth, You can't handle the truth ".
Posted by brownnose55 on July 5, 2007 at 10:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)
i beleive all that keep complaining about chief thomas must be ex employees that could never get promoted and moved on to wal-mart or someting. the thing i am trying to say is you should not make this a personal thing. may be you sould join the service and take your anger out on bin laden.
Posted by bootlicked on July 5, 2007 at 11:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)
SOUNDS LIKE YOUR THE ONLY ONE TAKING IT PERSONAL. IF YOU WORKED AT WALLY WORLD WOULD YOU SHOW UP TO WORK WHILE NOT SCHEDULED? THAT IS ONE REASON THE DEPT. DOESN'T HAVE ENOUGH MANPOWER.THAT IS ALSO THE REASON IT TOOK SO LONG TO FIGURE HOW MANY WERE MISSING.GOOD THING SHANE'S TOURNAMENT WASN'T AT MUNI JUST THINK HOW MANY WE COULD HAVE LOST. I THINK A VILLAGE IN AFGHANISTAN WOULD BE THE PERFECT PLACE FOR YOU. ARE YOU THE FIRE SCIENTIST WHO BROKE THE WINDOWS?
Posted by chiefswife on July 5, 2007 at 11:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)
You have some very good points bootlicked. It is unfortunate that CFD operates in that way. And no, brownnose55, everyone that does not agree with the outdated ways of CFD is not disgruntled ex employees. We are the ones involved in the fire service. When SC is the only state that does not follow OSHA regulations, I would tend to say there is a problem. There were a lot of problems with the way the fire scene was commanded, obviously because 9 lives were lost as a result. If you want to honor the fallen nine the quit complaining about those of us who want better. As far as not taking it personal brownnose55, you clearly are not a part of the fire service. We do take it personal when a life is lost within the brotherhood!
Posted by brownnose55 on July 6, 2007 at 9:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)
i think that it is very bad what happened, some of those guys were VERY good friends of mine. but bootlicked none of the off duty guys were any of the ones killed. these guys live for fire they love it. if they choose to go back to a fire then let them do it. most of those guys LOVE what they do. that is why so many work part-time fighting fires also. some of these guys live for the firedepartment.
Posted by bootlicked on July 6, 2007 at 11:43 a.m. (Suggest removal)
THEY LIVE FOR FIRE THEY LOVE IT. THANKS FOR PROVING MY POINT. EXCITEMENT CHASING AT SOME POOR UNFORTUNATE PERSON OR BUSINESSES EXPENSE. I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH PROFESSIONALS IN THE FIRE SERVICE VOLUNTEER OR NOT. FAMILY HAS AT LEAST 70 YRS. EXPERIENCE AS PAID PROFESSIONALS. IF YOU VOLUNTEER THAT IS FINE, BUT FOR A VOLUNTEER DEPT..PROBLEM IS THESE ARE THE GUYS GETTING THE PROMOTIONS. I REMEMBER A GUY THAT WAS A VOLUNTEER AND WITH THE CITY AND WAS PICKED UP ON DUTY FOR ARSON. WERE YOU HERE THEN? DADDY SPENT ALOT OF MONEY TO GET HIM OFF OF THAT ONE.WASN'T AN OFF-DUTY GUY PUMPING A TRUCK. IF YOU READ WHAT I SAY IT IS ALL ABOUT A FAIR UPDATED SYSTEM THAT IS ALSO A SAFER ONE. TOO BAD THEY HAVE TO WORK PART-TIME. GOD BLESS BROWNNOSE AND PLEASE LORD LOOK OVER HIM. AS LONG AS YA'LL SHOW UP TO ALL OF THE FIRES YOU WILL NEVER HAVE THE MANPOWER NEEDED.
Posted by firejake on July 6, 2007 at 3:45 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Its too bad that it seems to me the Union is so chastised in that area. If you love the job then act like, be a professional. All those working part time jobs as fire fighters in part time paid or volunteer depts. are scabs. They are blocking the avenues of those departments to EVER become a professional paid department with benefits that many of us so love. I wish I didn't miss fires too, but I have a life. When the tour is over go home as any normal human does. If you are called back then so be it, but to show up at every waking moment is absurd, manning can't be that bad with the Class 1 ISO rating that is so boasted about by the Chief and Mayor. Guess what people, money can buy that one and it seems money bought this one. Wonder how much the fire fighters make?
Posted by jimkelly on July 6, 2007 at 5:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I am sad to see the series articles that convey the leadership of the City of Charleston and CFD in such a negative light. I don't know whether the articles are accurate but they sure are opening up new wounds all around this tragic situation. I urge Charleston and CFD's leadership to adopt a three prong stance: 1) at every public and private opportunity demonstrate love for the families of the 9 fallen fire fighters and the remaining CFD family, 2) participate in full internal and external investigation, and 3) evaluate and CFD policies, procedures, and practices against the investigation results and make appropriate changes that balance life safety and property safety risk.
Posted by THISMUSTSTOP on July 6, 2007 at 11:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)
I’m a firefighter
I’m a paid firefighter
I was on duty and at the fire 6-18-07
I got there @1922 (according to dispatch logs) and I can tell you that Asst. Chief Garvin was not the incident commander. Chief Thomas was in command! Everything I read seems to imply that Garvin was the I.C. Garvin was quoted saying he was in the store and it was clear. (So tell me, where were these trapped customers that bootlick speaks of? Wouldn’t Garvin have seen them and maybe mentioned that they should exit the store?) Anyway, why is Chief Thomas letting Garvin take the heat?
Another question I have for some of you. If you were trying to protect a gas station from a building on fire, wouldn’t you have some kind of ‘exposure team’ or a hose line of some sort on that side? I can tell you that @1922 there was no such animal in place and Chief Thomas was on the opposite side of the building down in the loading dock area, well outside the view of this precious gas station that his ‘aggressive interior tactics’ were trying to save. GIVE ME A BREAK!
The I.C., Chief Garvin (YEAH RIGHT!), followed 4 St. Andrews firefighters to the back of the building to rescue the only employee left inside. This happened @1932.
This was a pretty big building. Do you think the I.C. should be that far away from the command post?
I don’t recall seeing one of those, so I guess it doesn’t really matter. (Oh, you don’t still think Garvin was the I.C. do you?)
This was the worst day of my career. Lets honor these guys by letting it all hang out and getting to the bottom of what went wrong. These kinds of tragedies don’t happen because of one mistake, but a series of them. We all make mistakes and we’ve all been told as children to learn from them. Maybe looking into a few books about firefighting could really do some good. Or just start writing checks because some lawyers started looking into a few law books.
Posted by bootlicked on July 7, 2007 at 7:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)
THOMAS ISN'T GOING TO TAKE THE HEAT. HE NEVER COULD THAT IS WHY DAADY MADE HIM A DRIVER THEN HE MOVED UP THROUGH THE RANKS LIKE THE FIRE MOVED THROUGH THE SOFA SUPERSTORE.THANK YOU AND ALL OF THOSE LIKE YOU FOR DOING A WONDERFUL JOB PROTECTING ME AND EVERYONE ELSE IN OUR GREAT CITY.REMAIN STRONG AND HOPEFULLY THINGS WILL GET BETTER.
Posted by firejake on July 8, 2007 at 9:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)
THISMUSTSTOP: Thank you for your response. As a career paid fire fighter it is something I have been saying all along. WE MUST LEARN from this. WE as in the fire service. All of the general public posting here and in other areas have NO understanding about some of the comments I or any of the other brothers make (thank you for trying though). I get criticized for this or that I say, but it all comes down to learning. Its what saves lives in our business. As I stated before (in the Union comments I believe) is that we are not perfect, I guarantee there are mistakes of some sort made at almost every fire and that goes for every dept in the country and from the smallest of fires to the largest unthinkable blazes one may face . But we talk about them and LEARN from them. This fire is no different, unfortunately we lost 9 brothers, 9 sons, 9 brave men who were merely doing their job.
I keep reading these comments in favor of the IC's and the mayor, saying there were people trapped. Since this story broke I heard about ONE trapped and rescued rather quickly (by St Andrews guys as mentioned above). So why were there up to 15 guys inside? Why did Chief Garvin not suspect ANYTHING when he himself spoke of smoke coming from the ceiling on his FIRST of at least 3 trips inside? As mentioned above if the building was cleared when they (he) could see...why when he opened the rear door did he not realize that he just set in motion a fire to flash... WHY oh WHY did the CFD and fire fighters across the country lose 9 brothers? Its so sad, and just to read this mornings articles of the eerily similar situations in Memphis and Worcester saddens me. We all should have read about these fires, and learned SOMETHING from then. They should have been talked about and the new guys coming in should have also been aware of these fires and been given a chance to learn and talk about them.
ThisMustStop, I am so sorry for your loss, my heart goes out to you and the other brothers still doing the job day in and day out. Stay strong and STAY SAFE, and GOD BLESS!
Posted by bickleseagrave on July 8, 2007 at 7:42 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Yes, hats off to you and your brothers for doing a great job. This tragedy has certainly affected all of your brothers and sisters in North America, I can not even fathom what you must be going through losing 9 friends all at once.
The video I saw from John Pundt said it all, the windows all being broken by a firefighter(probably ordered by a white hat), also the Chief of the Department hanging out at the front door behind a pump in the smoke half dressed. Give me a break, as an IC he should be standing back looking at at least two sides of the building to get a decent picture.
I hope the investigations bring out the truth!
Keep the faith bro, all the firefighters in the world are with you!
Posted by shockedff on July 9, 2007 at 4:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)
No one can defend the Chief with his quotes like,
"We come from a long line of traditional firefighting, and we are never going to get away from that — never," Thomas said.
He wouldn't do anything differently if it happened again, he said.
Never change??? Do it the same way again??? Get him out now!!!
Posted by MEDICMANFD on July 9, 2007 at 7:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)
Let us honor the nine who lost there lives in the line of duty that day. Let us pray for the families and friends of the nine who lost there lives in the line of duty that day. Let us learn from the circumstances that lead to the nine lost lives which died in the line of duty that day. These nine men are true heroes regardless of what occurred or who may have dropped the ball. These nine men did not die in vein as I believe many lives will be saved in the future as a result of there ultimate sacrifice. Just think for a moment how many lives potentially could be saved in the future if the true facts of this incident surface. If one fire fighter is able to look at this ordeal and learn from it and live to see another day then that is yet another day he has the potential to save a life as well and so on. These nine men did not die tragically because they did not die in vein. What would be tragic would be if we do not learn from this. We all have a responsibility to our families to make sure we do our best to come home. If we do not learn from this then we to may make the same mistakes. If we focus in on tradition and use tradition as the sole forward direction of our Fire Departments future then it will be easy to predict the future. Tradition is related to history and history has a way of repeating itself unless learned from. God bless the families of these 9 heroes.