Union warned leaders in '02
Firefighters group says proposals for safety were ignored
By Ron Menchaca , Glenn Smith
The Post and Courier
In 2002 Charleston's firefighters union warned city leaders about their department's safety practices. Last week a team of firefighting experts, and panel-leader Gordon Routley (pictured above), proposed sweeping changes to better protect city firefighters. Both sets of recommendations call for the department to implement national safety practices, including a minimum of four firefighters per truck and larger initial responses to fires.
Firefighters group says proposals for safety were ignored
Five years ago, members of Charleston's firefighters union warned city leaders about their department's safety practices, including a lack of manpower at fire scenes and unsafe uniforms, and offered a detailed list of recommendations to bring the department in line with national standards. None of the major safety proposals were adopted by Chief Rusty Thomas, Mayor Joe Riley or City Council, the firefighters said.
Riley said the city did not ignore the proposal, and the city is taking steps on its own to improve safety.
Just last week a team of firefighting experts proposed sweeping changes to better protect city firefighters in the wake of the June 18 Sofa Super Store blaze that killed nine men. Riley and Thomas praised the panel's work and embraced its findings, some of which were the same as those in the 2002 proposal from city firefighters.
Both sets of recommendations call for the department to implementnational safety practices, including a minimum of four firefighters per truck and larger initial responses to fires.
Among other changes called for in the 2002 proposal were for the department to get rid of its potentially dangerous polyester uniforms and to fully adopt national standards designed to protect firefighters.
Roger Yow, president of the local firefighters union, which represents about half of the city's firefighters, was a captain with the Charleston Fire Department in 2002. He attended the meeting with Thomas and recalled that Thomas promised to look into the group's concerns.
"This was in 2002, and it was ignored by all," Yow said. "Chief Thomas had his chance to change before nine good men died, and he refused to."
Riley denied that was the case. He said the city addressed several of the union's concerns, including adjustments to pay and vacations. He said the city also has taken steps to hire more firefighters and address other safety issues. He maintains that the city already budgets for four firefighters on each of its engines, even though the review panel said the city still falls short of that goal.
Riley said the city is committed to working with the review panel to make further changes in the fire department.
Some City Council members say the fire has raised critical issues about the fire department's procedures and leadership. They want council to have a greater role in how the department is run.
Councilman Henry Fishburne noted that the panel of firefighting experts hired by the city made initial recommendations for changes in the fire department after less than a week of study.
Fishburne questioned why the fire department didn't make those changes on its own if the deficiencies were that obvious.
"How did we think we had the best-led, best-trained, best-equipped fire department in the state, and maybe beyond, when the fire obviously showed that wasn't the case?" he asked. "That is a question for the chief, the mayor, City Council and the whole community. How did we not do better?"
Former Charleston firefighter Matt Thomson drafted the 2002 proposal outlining the union's concerns and presented it to Thomas during a November meeting.
Thomson said he offered the suggestions after noticing that the department's safety practices conflicted with what he'd been taught at his former department in Virginia. Thomson left the Charleston Fire Department in 2004 to pursue another career.
Yow said that some of the safety issues raised in 2002, such as staffing and incident response standards, could have made a difference in the sofa store blaze. He said the union's more than 100 members voted in support of the recommendations before they were presented to Thomas.
Many of the concerns raised five years ago cover firefighting guidelines written by the National Fire Protection Association. The association's standards are widely used in the fire service; many states and municipalities have written them into law.
In lawsuits involving issues of negligence, courts have looked to the association's guidelines to determine whether fire departments followed industry standards. The 2002 recommendations offered to city officials noted that the department followed only some of the national standards and needed to adopt more of them. "Ignoring the standards increases risk of firefighter injury," the proposal said.
The firefighters union also contacted Fishburne with its concerns in 2002 when he led the council's Public Safety Committee. Fishburne said he did not recall that request. He said the public safety committee has not "always been as active as we should have" in overseeing the operation of the fire department. That needs to change, he said.
Councilman James Gallant, chairman of the Public Safety Committee, said the committee has allowed the mayor to single-handedly make decisions regarding the department, and that needs to change. "This is not a one-man game," he said.
Riley said the council has been kept in the loop, but the city's strong-mayor form of government gives him the authority to act on the city's behalf. "I think it's important that the police and fire departments and other departments aren't subject to political pressures," he said.
Contact Ron Menchaca at rmenchaca@postandcourier.com or 937-5724. Contact Glenn Smith at gsmith@postandcourier.com or 937-5556.
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cfdiaffman (anonymous) says...
Thank you Captain Yow. Thank god you keep good records. Thank god someone is listening, finally. Keep up the good work Capt. Yow and everyone else thats helping to get the truth out.
August 24, 2007 at 1:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
The problem is we have a strong mayor and a council which was essentially hand picked by Joe. We need to take the election of council members more seriously and get more folks on board, who do not have a rubber stamp in their hand.
August 24, 2007 at 5:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mac0cm4 (anonymous) says...
Gee, a union wants more personnel (which ends up with them gaining more members) - that's original. (rolls eyes) Most area FD's don't have 4 people per apparatus. Aside from that, the rest of their recommendations aren't bad.
August 24, 2007 at 6:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
mac-cm4
Do you want the fire dept to show up at your fire with a poorly trained, poorly equipped and poorly led skeleton crew?
August 24, 2007 at 6:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
meemz (anonymous) says...
If this doesn't sum things up, I don't know what will! I am absolutely astounded!! Forget the voluntary resignations of the fire chief and mayor, sounds to me like they should be charged with 9 counts of man slaughter. If they're "not guilty," they can have their day in court to attempt to prove it.
>>Among other changes called for in the 2002 proposal were for the department to get rid of its potentially dangerous polyester uniforms and to fully adopt national standards designed to protect firefighters.
>>Roger Yow, president of the local firefighters union, which represents about half of the city's firefighters, was a captain with the Charleston Fire Department in 2002. He attended the meeting with Thomas and recalled that Thomas promised to look into the group's concerns.
"This was in 2002, and it was ignored by all," Yow said. "Chief Thomas had his chance to change before nine good men died, and he refused to."
>>Riley said the city did not ignore the proposal, and the city is taking steps on its own to improve safety.
>>Riley said the council has been kept in the loop, but the city's strong-mayor form of government gives him the authority to act on the city's behalf.
According to the above referenced text alleging what Riley said, he's more than admitted his guilt without meaning to. I would love to see Bill O'Reilly get ahold of this story and pursue the cheif and the mayor as he's known to do when he's passionate about a topic. Like him or not, he can be most effective.
August 24, 2007 at 6:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lillady (anonymous) says...
OK. I am sorry but there is NO way I can understand putting these men and women in uniforms on a daily basis that will burn and actually explode at high temperatures. Good gosh are they STUPID???? Anyone who is a mother knows that children's pajamas have long been made to be firesafe. Why the heck (and yes I want to use another word but won't) are we putting the men and women who might save our children in uniforms that could explode? NOW I am ready to start slapping at the higher ups on this issue.
August 24, 2007 at 6:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Mac4,
You are right, most FDs don't have 4 men on their trucks, but they SHOULD!
The Mayor's comment that the FD should not be politically pressured is garbage! He didn't want the council members coming to conclusions on their own, that might contradict with HIS wishes.
NOW will people believe what we have been saying since this thing broke????
WAY TO GO YOW!!!
August 24, 2007 at 7:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bigbrotheriswatching (anonymous) says...
for mayor riley to continually block members from city council to actively participate in the operation and functions of the executive body of our city government is damning, to say the least. the control he exhibits in running this city, nearly unaccountable to anyone, shows how he has insulated himself over a 32 year period as mayor. not one city council member was named to the review panel, and now gallant wants to speak up? he ignored the reccomendations in 2002 because his PRIORIY wasn't the fire department and what their BASIC needs were. it's sad it took 9 brave men to die for him to now consider implementing these suggestions. I am just trying to imagine what tragedy has to occur to our police department, or our schools before he decides to invest some real money in those areas and not 20 million in the dock street theater, or 11.5 in the rivers building....
Good work Yow
August 24, 2007 at 8:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gencon1 (anonymous) says...
I don't want to get into the blame issue but as a general rule, you need professionals to run departments. City Council having more say in the affairs of the CFD would be akin to congress running the war. Not a good idea. let the professionals in the field run the show and hold them accountable.
August 24, 2007 at 8:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bigbrotheriswatching (anonymous) says...
gencon,
comparing war and monitering the basic services that are provided by the city is a big leap...
August 24, 2007 at 8:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
This report and the 1996 report - ouch. Make your move Mr. Mayor-next week will be worse.
Firefighter Hourly has the coverage
http://www.firefighterhourly.com/fire...
check it out.
August 24, 2007 at 8:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
gencon1, Your so called "professionals" ran this show and now 9 are dead!!! What part of gross incompetence do you not understand??
You people keep reelecting him. He keeps your taxes low and you can get that warm fuzzy feeling thinking your safe while your head is planted firmly in the sand.
As for letting the professionals run the war.......I see Dubya has things in Iraq well in hand.
Go back to your coffee!
August 24, 2007 at 8:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
blahblah123 (anonymous) says...
There are unions in South Carolina, that is kind of ironic.
August 24, 2007 at 8:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
>>> Riley said the council has been kept in the loop, but the city's strong-mayor form of government gives him the authority to act on the city's behalf. "I think it's important that the police and fire departments and other departments aren't subject to political pressures," he said. <<<
To the incompetent, bungling, negligent mayor of charleston - resign today - for the sake of the city of charleston. You will look really stupid in court defending "YOUR" actions, with the international press there at hand.
August 24, 2007 at 9:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lyfe1999 (anonymous) says...
It's an election year folks. Unseating Riley is the only choice we have. Gregorie is the only competitor. Check out his website. Also, like it was said earlier we have to take city council races serious and elect people who are going to challenge the Mayor no matter who he or she is. Get involved people. King Riley has got to go.
August 24, 2007 at 9:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Early, he only increased the pay after the union sued. I think the vacation issue was that he let them split it up instead of making them use it all at once. I remember getting a month off for vacation(this includes the days off in between shifts) and actually only using a few days then just working my part time job for the rest of it. As time passes the public and the idiots baffled by Rusty and the Mayor's bull will also be appauled by thier actions, or failure to act.
August 24, 2007 at 9:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
>>> Riley said the council has been kept in the loop, but the city's strong-mayor form of government gives him the authority to act on the city's behalf. If a the citizens of a city wanted to change their form of government there are two options: an Election Commission-certified petition to that effect signed by '15' percent of the town's registered voters; or the municipal governing body ( the city council ) calling for such an election by 'ordinance'.
August 24, 2007 at 10:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
CITIZENS OF CHARLESTON: Below is a story that broke on a web blog...You need to pay attention closely..THIS is the logic behind your Chief!
"City Goes To Larger Attack Lines But Keeps Same Size Supply Lines:
The stupidity of the decision is profound. Instead of ordering larger supply lines the City of Charleston is apparently replacing their 1 1/5" attack lines with 1 3/4 ". Yet they are still retaining the same supply lines!
Now further demands will be placed on the same supply line that had a direct impact on the departments inability to provide enough water during the Sofa Super Store fire. The logical sequence would have been to order larger supply lines first! Then add the 1 3/4" line.
Now, at a fire, firefighters will pull one or two preconnects that flow more water. However if you can't SUPPLY more water the new lines are no better than the old. This boggles the mind."(Retrieved from www.firefighterhourly.com)
This man has been speaking out about the inadequacies of this Chief and the practices for a long time...No one listened...Time to perk up our ears folks, the crap is just beginning to roll!
August 24, 2007 at 10:29 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gencon1 (anonymous) says...
Do you want a city council, none of which could properly extinguish a campfire telling you how to run a fire department. Do you want Kwadjo Campbell telling you what size hose to pull? What part of hold the professionals accountable did you not read?
August 24, 2007 at 10:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
MAYOR RILEY: (OR WHOEVER READS THE MBs for HIM):From the P&C: "Riley said the city DID NOT IGNORE the proposal (2002), and the city is taking steps on its own to improve safety (2007)."
(1) Did not ignore: This means you WERE FULLY AWARE of the dangers to the city's ffs.
(2) the city is taking steps on its own--FIVE YEARS LATER AFTER YOU KNEW, and ONLY because of the irate citizens and remaining ffs who weren't killed in that fire have been screaming for changes.
Again, from the article, "I think it is important that the police and fire departments and other departments aren't subject to POLITICAL PRESSURES." The resounding answer to that statement: R-E-S-I-G-N because YOU are the political pressure that has created this awful incident.
August 24, 2007 at 10:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Another benefit of change is that you can reduce the exorbitant salary riley takes from the city of charleston. If the manager doesn't work out get another one.
Council form of government The biggest difference in this versus what exists in the city of charleston right now is that all legislative and administrative powers of the city of charleston is vested in the city council. Each member of council, including the 'mayor', has only one vote.
Council-Manager form of government Under this form of government, all legislative powers of the municipality and the determination of all matters of policy shall be vested in the city of charleston, city council, each member, including the mayor, to have only one vote. And instead of the mayor being responsible for the day-to-day administration of the town, a town manager is hired as the chief executive officer and head of the administrative branch of the city of charleston. He will be responsible to the city of charleston, city council, for the proper administration of all affairs of the city of charleston.
August 24, 2007 at 10:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
sheeple (anonymous) says...
"he only increased the pay after the union sued. "
Maybe the union should have sued for Kevlar uniforms...seems there's more than enough blame to go around.
August 24, 2007 at 11:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
gencon1 - >>> Do you want a city council, none of which could properly extinguish a campfire telling you how to run a fire department. Do you want Kwadjo Campbell telling you what size hose to pull? What part of hold the professionals accountable did you not read? <<<
Citizens of the city of charleston do have a responsibility to look at who they vote for. After all, its easier to vote out a council member than a dictator protected by the press. Right?
Look at what a one man dictatorship has gotten the city of charleston.
"Another day older and deeper in debt." - Tennessee Ernie Ford (I think)
August 24, 2007 at 11:04 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Under a strong-mayor form of government, as in the city of charleston, the mayors' powers are, by state law ->
To appoint and, when he deems it necessary for the good of the municipality, suspend or remove all municipal employees and appointive administrative officers; except as otherwise provided by law or personnel rules adopted pursuant to Chapters 1 through 17. He may authorize any administrative officer who is subject to his direction and supervision to exercise these powers with respect to subordinates in that officer's department, office or agency;
"To direct and 'supervise' the administration of all departments, offices and agencies of the municipality" except as otherwise provided by Chapters 1 through 17;
To preside at meetings of the council and vote as other councilmen;
To act to insure that all laws, provisions of Chapters 1 through 17 and ordinances of the council, subject to enforcement by him or by officers subject to his direction and supervision, are faithfully executed;
To prepare and submit the annual budget and capital program to the council;
To submit to the council and make available to the public a complete report on the finances and administrative activities of the municipality as of the end of each fiscal year;
To make such other reports as the council may require concerning the operations of municipal departments, offices and agencies subject to his direction and supervision.
August 24, 2007 at 11:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
>>> "To direct and 'supervise' the administration of all departments, offices and agencies of the municipality" Are the citizens of the city of charleston to understand you aren't able to fulfill your duties?
"RESIGN", for the good of the city of charleston.
August 24, 2007 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Burntower (anonymous) says...
OK I have finally broke down and got myself involved in this bickering. First off, I work for the CFD and I know its not all of you but I'm sick of hearing about how poorly trained and uneducated we are in this department; show a little respect I don't need to be praised for what I do, because most of you will never fully understand what it is I do, but for Christ's sake show a little compassion and back off! I know there is always better out there and we all want the best, and it seems that MOST, not all are quick to point out flaws in us and in our department. If you want the best then do not complain when asked to put your money where your mouth is. Most of you are the same ones who will sit on your butts when it comes to going to council meetings, voting, or just showing up to voice your concerns. By all means, I love hearing about how we need better education, better equipment, better PAY but sitting in these little rooms bashing the department does nothing. As I said before WE are all for those improvements but it costs money to get these things, so if you refuse to help out stay out of it. It's easy to sit back and point the finger and I know because I've done it, but it solves nothing!! I don't see any of you doing more than what you are required to for what you get paid so why should others, remember that finger you're pointing? Now look at that hand and see how many are pointed back at you.
I would like to thank the community for all that they have done with the support, and love, it helps us more than you realize. Just don't get caught up in this debate if you don't plan on doing anything about it.
August 24, 2007 at 11:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
BurnTower,
I understand your sentiments, but I have personally gone to the last council meeting, and intend to go to more in the future. I have met with civilians and spoken to them about the concerns within the department. I devote many hours of my life to organizing people in order to help you. I have also been in contact with City Council via email. People are helping. Our actions do speak volumes. Please be patient.
We are NOT pointing our fingers at the individual FF's, but rather the administration for failing to give you the tools you all needs to perform your jobs. If citizens don't know the problems, they cannot be expected to read minds and fix the problems. No one is intending to harm you or your brothers, but time has come to change the problems. These people are on your side.
Stay safe, and THANK YOU
August 24, 2007 at 12:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldfric07 (anonymous) says...
Burntower is correct about something - Charleston firefighters aren't hicks. They are dedicated and courageous.
Their leaders were not forced into their positions. They accepted them and thus they took responsibility for the issues that are being brought up. Thus, the only way for this to ever die down is for the Chief to go and a replacement be sought who has experience leading a department in a progressive manner.
99.999% of the firefighters in the CFD are trained to the level required by the current chief. That isn't enough.
Like it or not change is coming. Whether it's rapid is up to the Mayor. Changes need to be made to operations.
August 24, 2007 at 12:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Kerry (anonymous) says...
Mayor Riley and Chief Thomas are NOW suddenly for sweeping changes.
Fishburne (leader of the Public Safety Committee in 2002) NOW suddenly wants City Council to be more involved in overseeing the operation of the Fire Department.
My question to these imbeciles, who will soon take credit for bringing the CFD up to national standards if we allow them to do so, is:
WHERE THE HELL WERE YOU IN 2002!!!
It all makes me sick. It is time to point fingers and hold those responsible for the deaths of nine firefighters fully accountable for their inaction while holding positions of so called leadership.
Please do not turn Riley, Thomas, or Fishburne into heroes by patting them on the back NOW.
August 24, 2007 at 12:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Kerry (anonymous) says...
Mount Pleasant got rid of their good old boy fire chief who finally found out that the procedures in place to prevent sexual harrassment in the workplace did actually apply to him. Too bad he was able to slide out under the crack at the bottom of the door with his reputation, retirement and pension intact.
The good news is his replacement, Chief Williams, is a true professional and highly qualified to lead the department in Mount Pleasant.
If anyone is seeking the opinion of a Chief that not only meets but exceeds national standards, I suggest you drive across the bridge and visit one at the MPFD.
August 24, 2007 at 12:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Burntower: We are NOT criticizing the ffs at CFD. God knows you people are ALSO heroes. After losing nine of your brothers, some of you questioned how things were done, but you continued to serve the public by responding to fires with the equipment you have and the training you were given and we all thank you for that. We ARE criticizing your chief, some of your ACs and BCs AND the mayor and council for not providing you with the equipment and training that brings you up to standard. It took the loss of nine ffs to bring this to light. ALL of you are important to us....we don't want to lose anymore of you. We want ALL of you to have the safest equipment, the proper equipment and the training so that if you still think things aren't being handled properly by your supervisors, you have a choice of leaving the department if you want to and going somewhere else without having to get more training so that you are up to other department's standards. You and your brothers stay safe.
August 24, 2007 at 1:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Early: Your vote will hurt the most. Riley has no business "serving" another term in office. Council members who do not care about their public servants should likewise be voted out. Attend the council meetings and let your voice be heard. But more than anything, support your ffs. Stop by the stations occasionally and bring a plate of cookies or brownies and TELL them you appreciate what they do. If a ff is behind you at a lunch counter, buy him lunch. They are not paid enough for the job they do. After 9-11, many people did this, and then stopped doing it and forgot about our heroes.
August 24, 2007 at 1:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Kerry: At least two of the council members have come forth and admitted they made mistakes by not keeping up with what was going on and they are willing to get involved in making improvements now. They are Fishburne and Gallant. I do not think they are trying to ride to glory on Joe's shirttails, because, from where I sit, Joe is riding down the proverbial tube. Cautiously watch what these two council members do. If they are "talking the talk" but not "walking the walk", vote them out, also.
August 24, 2007 at 1:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Burntower (anonymous) says...
Please understand that I am not upset with the ones of you who are active in trying to better the department, I was just sick of hearing about how we are cheating incompetent uneducated morons. I do realize that not everyone is saying that but to the ones that are, I challenge you to show your face, not to fight but to voice your opinion in person. That would be the quickest way to right what has been wrong for so long, it will not all happen at once but getting it started is the hardest part. Once again we do THANK YOU ALL for your support.
Just a Firefighter
August 24, 2007 at 2:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
The issues here are not with the firefighters. I think people respect firefighters and think of them as career professionals who put their lives at stake every day. What has shocked so many people is the lack of leadership and support of the CFD by the city.
The city's priorities are hard to understand, i.e. golf-cart tunnels and ball parks, and seem to echo national trends with infrastructure and public safety. The recent bridge collapse, mining disaster, and Deutsche Bank tragedies are other examples.
F7
August 24, 2007 at 3:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BattChiefNCFD (anonymous) says...
Gee, a union wants more personnel (which ends up with them gaining more members) - that's original. (rolls eyes) Most area FD's don't have 4 people per apparatus. Aside from that, the rest of their recommendations aren't bad.
mac0cm4,
Are you serious with this post? Of course most fire departments in the area don't have 4 people per apparatus. That's the whole problem we've been screaming about for years. This isn't a local problem, but a national problem. Why is it "roll eyes" when union members demand more perosnnel to ride the trucks. I don't know if you're a firefighter in SC or not, but in case you didn't know, unions are not recognized in the state. It's a Right-to-Work state so becoming a union member is a non-issue. There are no requirements to join the union in CFD nor NCFD. If a person chooses to do so, he/she can; if they don't they don't. The only problem I've seen from this occurred 10-12 years ago when CFD & NCFD sued their respective cities for back-pay over deducting their eat & sleep time. In both instances, the firefighters won only to have council members come out in the local papers complaining and blaming the firefighters about the settlements and insuing tax raises on the citizens that came about for their mistakes. Then, many of the very members who wanted nothing to do with sticking their necks out and taking the hit which would come by finally standing up for our rights, wanted to share in the same benefits. Well, I can't speak for CFD, but NCFD firefighter's who weren't union members received the benefit of a change in work schedule from 24-on/24-off to 24-on/48-off, and eventually ended up bringing a second lawsuit to try to gain their compensation, which amounted to less than $1,500.00 compared to over $10,000.00 per union member. So don't question when the union demands better pay, better working conditions, better equipment, more staffing. They don't do it for their own benefit; they do it for the benefit of the ENTIRE BROTHERHOOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
August 24, 2007 at 3:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Kerry (anonymous) says...
Seems like the Union dropped the ball right along with the rest if you ask me...I thought they were there to stand up for the firefighters, but all the Union did was call for a vote on the recommendations and present them to the Mayor and Council to be ignored. The local Firefighters Union apparently carries no clout and should have made more noise over the deficiencies and the failure of the officials in leadership capacities to address them back in 2002.
Add the local Union to the growing list of the guilty as charged.
August 24, 2007 at 3:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Kerry,
I have to disagree, respectfully...The Union HAS been trying to make headway in this city, but this city refuses to acknowledge their existence, and with less than the needed number of FF in the Union, there isn't enough a$$ behind them to push the changes they need through.
Please don't be so quick to judge the Union, I was in the beginning, and I did my homework and found to the contrary. Just for information sake, the Union Rep, Roger Yow was the one that reminded the City that this document was submitted in 2002. If they didn't want to listen and put these things into effect now, then we need to see it for what it is...the CITY'S responsibility.
Respectfully,
August 24, 2007 at 3:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
OK, most of us agree, lets all show up on election day - vote and vote often. And tell a friend about the issues - tell as many friend as you can!
August 24, 2007 at 3:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
Lets approach this sad situation from a different angle - it is like a host (ie. tax payer) who throws a party and no one shows up. What is the host to think and will the host continue to offer the invitation?
August 24, 2007 at 4:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rjahopp (anonymous) says...
The Sofa Super Store (SSS) tragedy is not about politics (Riley or Thomas or City Council) or leadership or training or equipment or Union recommendations to follow national safety standards or other "expert" safety recommendations. Although safety practices and firefighting practices should continuously be reviewed and updated as necessary, none of this makes an iota of difference in the tragic loss of life. It's about human error.
The nine firemen, including three Captains, were not rookies. They and the Chief and Asst. Chief had almost 200 man-years of firefighting experience. They knew what they were doing and used that experience at the SSS on June 18th but they were doomed by human error - a tragic mistake was made: A DOZEN PLUS FIREMEN, SOME REPORTEDLY ARMED ONLY WITH SUPPLY HOSES, ENTERED AND REMAINED IN A BURNING BUILDING WHICH SEEMED TO EVIDENCE CLEAR SIGNS OF BEING STRONGLY SUSCEPTIBLE TO FLASHOVER. When smoke was seen seeping from the ceiling, maybe the use of the infrared cameras could have saved their lives. (Understanding that this happened before Thomas arrived and, when he did get on scene, he was misinformed by dispatch that a civilian [Tyrrell] was in the building [store], not in a separate workshop. Realizing the true situation, he immediately ordered all of his men from the store. About half of the men got out, but, it was too late for nine of them.)
Improvement can and should be made in the firefighting practices and safety procedures in most any fire department in the country. But, as in the SSS, no matter how many years of experience are available, human nature says mistakes will continue to be made, sometimes resulting in the loss of life.
Yow's quote that "Chief Thomas had his chance to change before nine good men died, and he refused to." is more than unfair and rightfully challenged by Riley; there is no malfeasance on either of their parts regarding the SSS tragedy. None of the Union's past or current recommended changes, although many may be valuable, would have likely made a difference in saving the nine experienced firemen at the SSS.
August 24, 2007 at 4:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
To continue on my theme, I direct you to Matthew 22:1-14 (ie. the host invited folks but they didn't/would't come).
August 24, 2007 at 4:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ssm (anonymous) says...
BattChiefNCFD-well said. Just wanted to clarify that joining the union will soon no longer be a non-issue. Bill HR 980 has passed the House and is on it's way to the Senate which reconvenes in January. Once it passes there, it's on the way to the Pres. to become law. This will be a federal law that ensures Public Safety employees the right to organize and bargain.
August 24, 2007 at 4:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Neponset (anonymous) says...
Sorry, wrong board - I thought I was talking to the sad school attendence situation. But maybe it applies here.
August 24, 2007 at 4:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Radiowave (anonymous) says...
"Posted by Burntower - Please understand that I am not upset with the ones of you who are active in trying to better the department, I was just sick of hearing about how we are cheating incompetent uneducated morons. I do realize that not everyone is saying that but to the ones that are, I challenge you to show your face, not to fight but to voice your opinion in person. That would be the quickest way to right what has been wrong for so long, it will not all happen at once but getting it started is the hardest part. Once again we do THANK YOU ALL for your support."
Besides Roger Yow, there was one other citizen who spoke at the Tuesday council meeting. He stood up to the mike and said he was grateful to CFD members, thanked them for their service, then urged the mayor and council to continue to press for more changes to keep our fire fighters and citizens safe. I suspect if many more voters step up to the microphone for the Sept and Oct city council meetings, a lot more council members will be willing to publicly support change as Mr. Fishburne and Gallant did Tuesday night. Don't need to wait to November to keep things moving forward.
Just a citizen
August 24, 2007 at 4:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
solutions (anonymous) says...
All these deaths were preventable, as are most deaths in the fire service!
Stop pointing fingers and come up with solutions, get involved! I know that saying it easy and then doing it is different. And some are involved which is good. Just be aware that the Mayor or the Council might not have a choice on the future. The choice might come from the following:
1) Insurance Carriers / Underwriters
2) regulatory agencies (Fed & State)
3) public citizens
Look at this way. The cost to prepare and avoid this situation is going to be small to compared to the future.
Cost for Training Staff: need atleast 6-Certified Instructors, 250,000.00 per year for training budget & equipment, proper training facility. Cost a year- $1,250,000.00 per year for five years to fix the problems is a good estimate to start from the basics for all levels.
Five year Total- $6,250,000.00
Cost of one Potential Lawsuit - ???????
Good report to review will be the Baltimore City FD training fatality which occurred this year.
Good Luck in improving your system and situation.
" Everyone Goes Home" PERIOD!!!!!
August 24, 2007 at 4:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ssm (anonymous) says...
Heads up Jim! He's back. LOL
August 24, 2007 at 4:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Respectfully, had the department been willing to train their men (including their leadership) better, the recognizable signs of flashover and collapse might have been recognized, and they MIGHT have made the right decision not to allow the men in. The years are insignificant when they aren't trained to use them effectively. That is NOT a slam to the fallen, they do as they are told, all of the men do...I think it is time for people to pull their heads out of the sand, or wherever they stuff them, and see that this is a failure well beyond the scope any of us could have imagined.
August 24, 2007 at 5:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jameschucktown5 (anonymous) says...
anybody to believes roger yow over rusty thomas does not know either of them. yow has an agenda to whip things up to prove his relevance. no matter what is said, he will object. thomas is an honorable man who respects his ff and the vast majority of them respect him. he deserves respect.
August 24, 2007 at 5:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Mayor Riley:
Can you say "CONTROL FREAK"?
Chief Thomas: Can you say it, too?
August 24, 2007 at 6:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Did anyone catch Riley's reply on Channel 5 to Yow's letter? Honest to pete, if he says, "We are #1 ISO rating" one more time, I am going to vomit.... When asked if he remembered the report, he made mention that the chief looked at it (read, I'm passing the buck).....and then went on to another issue. Keep campaigning Joe, it makes you sound like an idiot!
jameschucktown5: An "honorable man" does not tell two different stories. Immediately after the fire, the chief said, when asked if he would do anything differently if he had to do it over, "no, we would do it exactly the same." After the panel came up with many major areas that needed MUCH immediate improvement in the CFD, he said, "we are going to make some changes." You don't lose NINE men and say you would do things exactly the same.....that means, you would lose NINE men AGAIN.
August 24, 2007 at 6:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Unbelievable...after all of the EVIDENCE and people are still sucking down the Kool-aid???
Roger's agenda would be what?????? HE IS RETIRED!!! No chance of moving up on any ladders there! Good grief...
Unbelievable...
Vesta! You go!!! giggle Keep it up!
August 24, 2007 at 6:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Quote from story above, "He (Riley) maintains that the city already budgets for four firefighters on each of its engines, even though the review panel said the city still falls short of that goal."
Oh yeah? If it's in the budget, why aren't there 4 FF on each engine? Where's that budget money going?
August 24, 2007 at 6:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Quote from Fishburne: "How did we think we had the best-led, best-trained, best-equipped fire department in the state, and maybe beyond, when the fire obviously showed that wasn't the case?" he asked. "That is a question for the chief, the mayor, City Council and the whole community. How did we not do better?"
Answer: Because you have been sadly misled by the good ole boys, Riley and Thomas.
August 24, 2007 at 6:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
http://www.wcbd.com/midatlantic/cbd/n...
Here's the link to the 2002 recommendations made to the CFD.
August 24, 2007 at 7:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Page 2 of the above report gives an example of an incident that occurred in Lairdsville, NY in 2001 where NFPA guidelines weren't being followed and in a lawsuit that followed, the Asst Chief was found guilty of Criminal Negligent Homicide!
Folks, they don't write these standards for nothing! They are to protect the men and women fighting fires!
Wake up, Riley! Smell the "smoke"!
August 24, 2007 at 7:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
It's great people are concerned - but why now? Because of the tragedy?
This is no better than those who wait to change something until something bad happens; which just so happens to be what most here are accusing upper management of doing.
Where were you years ago when we needed you?
Most people didn't give FF'ers a second look now all of a sudden the processes and every minute detail are being scrutinized. Now all of a sudden people are stepping up speaking for the men, demanding changes, and acting like this was a fight they've been involved in from the start.
These men may need you now but if you would have spoken up years ago it very well "may" have saved the lives of the 9.
Hard to hear that isn't it?
Imagine what Chief Thomas is going through having to hear the very same question I just proposed to you which many are throwing in his face?
However, the more important question is..
Where will you be years from now when the dust has settled? Judging history you won't be here still supporting the CFD.
You want to help support the CFD now? Well that means you'll be here to support them tomorrow and the day after that and the day after that and the day after that and the day after that and the day after that.....
August 24, 2007 at 7:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
If the chief and the mayor had listened to the same recommendations years ago, "it very well may have saved the lives of 9 men"
Unfortunately, sometimes it takes a horrible tragedy for the public to become aware of the problems that have now come to light.
No one has to accuse upper management of waiting until a tragegy to make changes. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING NOW! Upper management should have made these changes YEARS ago and then none of us would be discussing this and 9 men would be home with their loved ones tonight.
Where was "upper management", as you call it, years ago when the men went to them with safety recommendations?
I believe the FF appreciate the support of the ordinary people that they serve and protect. Yes, perhaps they should have received this much support years ago, but it appears that the good ole boy system in place at the fire department's "Upper management" and the mayor's office managed to keep things well hidden from public view.
The public's lack of information about this dept. did not cause this tragedy as you elude to in your comment. But the public's quest for the truth and fight for changes in this department may very well prevent another tragedy.
August 24, 2007 at 7:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
charleytowngirl wrote "The public's lack of information about this dept. did not cause this tragedy as you elude to in your comment."
.
.
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You read it wrong dear. That wasn't what I was "eluding" to. You completely missed the point.
.
.
.
And if you are feeling defensive maybe it's for a reason. No?
.
.
.
Those who have been on the side of the CFD know who they are and those who haven't know who they are as well.
If you're just now coming to the side of the CFD I hope you are still here years from now because we could have used you 10-15 years ago.
August 24, 2007 at 8:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hawneena (anonymous) says...
You know after reading this story one thing jumped into my mind. It may not seem like a proper analogy to some, but similar results occurred on a much larger scale.
Anyone remember the Iran-Contra hearings? Col. Oliver North tryed to warn the world about Osama Bin Laden, and then Sen. Al Gore could not pronounce the name and burst out laughing. No one took Col. North seriously and look what happened.
My point is when people are warned and fail to heed the warning, then tradgedy is sure to strike.
August 24, 2007 at 8:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
You are right, Hebthree, I misread your statement...here's the quote:
"These men may need you now but if you would have spoken up years ago it very well "may" have saved the lives of the 9."
I will correct my statement. The public's failure to speak up did not kill 9 men. The general public wasn't aware of the problems that existed.
Do I feel defensive? Damn skippy I do. I would hate to be in the position of the 9's families having to explain to my child that his daddy died because of serious mistakes on the part of others!
Your name wouldn't be Todd, is it?
August 24, 2007 at 8:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
charleytown wrote
"These men may need you now but if you would have spoken up years ago it very well "may" have saved the lives of the 9."
I will correct my statement. The public's failure to speak up did not kill 9 men. The general public wasn't aware of the problems that existed.
.
.
.
.
.
That's the point
The general public wasn't aware because they weren't involved.
And that statement was to prove a point it wasn't to "elude" the public caused the deaths.
I'm happy the public is getting involved but you better be in it for the long haul because we haven't seen public support ever.
Don't just support us now.. support us tomorrow.
And if you were supporting us yesterday - then Thank You.
and No.. my name is not Todd.
August 24, 2007 at 8:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldfric07 (anonymous) says...
When leaders take positions of authority and responsibility in publci safety, they should be aware that it's not a kingdom. It's not a private service - it exists because taxpayers fund it.
The Chief understood this and accepted the praise for a long time. He was warned about the possibility of something happening. When the tragedy occurred, it was only a matter of time until the lid came off.
Now he has a lot of explaining to do. Not just to the public because the public usually forgives, but to others who decide things based on written declarations, not emotions.
And really it hasn't even started yet. This is a cakewalk compared to the next 6 months.
Make no mistake though - the firefighters are doing their jobs. Leaders get paid to make decisions. Whether bad or good they answer for them. In this case it's bad.
August 24, 2007 at 8:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
Very well said oldfric
August 24, 2007 at 8:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Hebthree:
What do you feel is the best way the public can support these men/women....not just today, but on into the future?
August 24, 2007 at 8:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
Stay involved. Ask questions. Do as you are now but not because it is fresh in the minds but because you are aware of the dangers involved and care for the men.
It hurts when the priority of the city has been the police department.
August 24, 2007 at 8:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
It is a little difficult for the general public to know things that the City Council members claim they didn't even know...
Sure, the general public was under the impression that all was well..If you aren't married to or family member of a CFF, how would anyone know? Problems in this department we hidden well, maybe because people were afraid to report issues? Maybe because administration did a bang up job keeping it all quiet? Who knows...but if major deficiencies would have been told, I can assure you, some of us (at least those of us with FF family members) WOULD have been on it.
I assure you that I will be seriously looking at the local departments in my area now, BEFORE men die.
Unfortunately, tragedies like these are usually what it takes to bring out the truth and change. It isn't the most ideal, but like, I said, if we don't know, how can we ask for change? And just because we didn't know, doesn't mean we sit back and wait for it to go away. Now we know, now we have an obligation to push for change.
August 24, 2007 at 8:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
nickiegarbeil "It is a little difficult for the general public to know things that the City Council members claim they didn't even know..."
You are right - but how many people of the public went to the city council meetings?
Another quote
"Now we know, now we have an obligation to push for change."
And stay involved right? =)
August 24, 2007 at 9:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Well said, Nickie. Hebthree, I believe that if the general public knew of the issues to the extent we know now that many would have spoken out sooner.
August 24, 2007 at 9:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
easybootlicked (anonymous) says...
The Union said something in 2002. Did they also say something in 2003? 2004? 2005? 2006? first 5 months of 2007? If things were as bad as people say, why didn't this come out before now? We have the P&C and 3 news stations in this city. Could Mr. Yow not get any of them to talk about this before the SSS fire? Or did the Union not fight as hard for safety as it did for money and vacation time?
Yes, right after the fire Chief said that the CFD wouldn't change. Maybe that was emotion speaking. Maybe he didn't want people to think that The 9 did something wrong (i.e. they died because they messed up). Nobody has done that (which is good) but at the time maybe he (Chief) thought that could happen and wanted to make sure it didn't. Maybe after getting some time to think about it, he decided changes could be made. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong... but maybe I'm right.
Just some thoughts...
August 24, 2007 at 9:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
I would agree with that.
But in the past the general public didn't care and all I don't want to happen is in the future it goes back to "oh they are just fire fighters".
This warning came out in 2002 and there wasn't much, if any at all, outcry from the public with a demand for this change to happen. Why?
Like I said - and don't get me wrong
I'm VERY happy the support is here now but we'll need it tomorrow and the next day and the next day as well.
That's all I'm saying.
August 24, 2007 at 9:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
But was the general public aware of the recommendations in 2002? I bet not.........
August 24, 2007 at 9:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
charleytowngirl wrote "But was the general public aware of the recommendations in 2002? I bet not........."
Well it was made public
August 24, 2007 at 9:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
easybootlicked, there is no doubt in my mind that Chief is grieving over this, just like the other FF's and families. I honestly think that many of his comments in the beginning were coming from a man that was in shock. I'm not even sure that he is aware of how his comments sounded. That being said, is more reason, in my mind, why he needs to be (at a minimum) on admin. leave. He AND Garvin need to be on admin leave.
The more that comes out on how this dept. is run and the changes that were recommended and not followed long ago, can't be helping their state of mind. You have got to have a clear mind to run a dept. this big. And with the added pressure of all the publicity, well, it can't be good for his mental state right now. It's not safe for him, the men/women in the dept and the general public.
He needs to take a break.
August 24, 2007 at 9:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
I must have missed that story in 2002.....I'm your average person, I get my news from the P&C and the local news channels. I admit it.....never been to a council meeting.
August 24, 2007 at 9:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Hebthree,
Maybe the right bigmouths weren't in town or aware of the problems?? :) I honestly NEVER read the P&C, nor do I usually watch local news channels...I guess I honestly looked to world issues more than looking to the local issues we SHOULD have been looking in to...
I have family in local fire service, so if they complain, then I know...if not, then I don't...not the most ideal, but if they keep their mouths shut we have no other insight...
Now that I know, I won't ignore it again...That's a promise.
August 24, 2007 at 9:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Easybootlicked,
I could be totally mistaken, as I am not, nor have I ever been a member of a Union, but...it is my understanding that Mr. Yow can pretty much do nothing unless it is voted on. He is not allowed to be a rogue representative if his local chapter don't wish, or vote for him to speak..
As I said, I could be wrong, but that is MY understanding. Fact still remains, the Unions ANYWHERE should never need to ask for things that are standards in procedure...not excusing, but I refuse to let the City off on that one...
August 24, 2007 at 9:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Kobersteen (anonymous) says...
hawneena wrote:
> Anyone remember the Iran-Contra hearings? Col. Oliver North
> tryed to warn the world about Osama Bin Laden, and then Sen.
> Al Gore could not pronounce the name and burst out laughing.
> No one took Col. North seriously and look what happened.
That is an urban legend...
http://www.snopes.com/rumors/north.asp
I agree with the intent... just not the validity of your reference.
Let the deaths of my 9 brave brothers not be in vain.
August 24, 2007 at 9:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
charleytowngirl
nickiegarbeil
Thanks you two. I hope people follow your lead and continue to do so.
August 24, 2007 at 9:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hawneena (anonymous) says...
Kobersteen, I had copies of the actual trial transcripts that got lost in a computer crash.
If they were fake then someone should be shot for putting out false evidence. Anyway, like you said, the intent is the same.
P.S. snopes is not always accurate either. All boils down to not believing everything you read I guess.
August 24, 2007 at 9:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Thanks Hebthree, sorry I got so defensive at your intial comments...you know a little of my reasons for being so passionate about this matter. :-)
August 24, 2007 at 9:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Easybootlicked: said "Yes, right after the fire Chief said that the CFD wouldn't change. Maybe that was emotion speaking. Maybe he didn't want people to think that The 9 did something wrong (i.e. they died because they messed up). Nobody has done that (which is good) but at the time maybe he (Chief) thought that could happen and wanted to make sure it didn't." I wonder if nobody has said that the nine did something wrong because most people (ffs and civilians)when viewing the tapes, hearing the videos and reading the ffs' comments on these message boards KNOW that these 9 brave men DID NOTHING WRONG. These men followed orders. WE already know what was "messed up" and it certainly wasn't these nine men. How dare you even insinuate that it was their fault.
August 24, 2007 at 10:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Hebthree,
We can only hope! Thank you
August 24, 2007 at 10:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Vesta, I know Eastbootlicked's comment was a little hard to follow, but I don't think he was insinuating that at all. I think he meant that he thought Chief may have made the comments he made right after the fire to keep the general public from making comments like that. At least that's the way I took it.....
August 24, 2007 at 10:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
If you haven't gotten a good printable version of Roger Yow's suggestions to the CFD in 2002, go to SCONFIRE and, under the article title and small blurb, click on the Union Recommendations. Thank you, Mr. Yow for making this information known to the general public.
August 24, 2007 at 10:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FF40212 (anonymous) says...
I just read the recommendations of the union from 2002. For the record, I left Charleston after testing in Charlotte (my mother lives in upstate SC) and here in Louisville.
I did not leave because I was dissatisfied with the department (as one may be led to believe from that report).
August 24, 2007 at 11:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
cfdiaffman (anonymous) says...
I just read the actual press release on the 2002 recommendations on the union site. Anyone interested go to www.local61.com
August 24, 2007 at 11:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
ff40212 - that's now what you told the guys in 15. Just suck it up.
August 25, 2007 at 12:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FF40212 (anonymous) says...
oldcap - Ask Captain Johnny Cammer what I told him my last night there.
P.S. Sign your name
August 25, 2007 at 12:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
Son I don't need to ask Johnny. He's a good man and so was his dad-we were on Cannon Street together. But you've already been caught out twice. Do you really want the third time to happen. Because what you said the last night has no bearing on what you said leading up to it. Three boys heard it. We all know it. You just keep coming on here and embarassing yourself.
What's funny is how you come on here and attack people. We let it play out because we knew the real deal about you. Now others find out you were one of the ones that left and have your name stamped on a report. That makes you disgruntled. Now you're trying to worm your way back in. Sad. Son go pay attention to your job in Kentucky and let the men who stayed here take care of here.
And if you do worm your way back with Rusty it won't be for long boyo. He's leaving. Oh and the new chief won't be an inside man. Keep telling yourself different. So far you are batting .000
August 25, 2007 at 12:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
By the way - don't ever ask people to ask Roger about you. He'll tell the truth. In fact he already has-so just move along.
August 25, 2007 at 12:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FF40212 (anonymous) says...
Once again, the truth has no bearing in some of the posts on here. "Caught out twice"? Meaning what? "Three boys heard it?" There are 8 guys assigned to each shift on Coming Street. Your post makes no sense.....
I am saying now (as I said many times in 2002), that we left Charleston because of personal and family reasons. I had no idea that would be used in that report. It was in no way a reflection on the department and simply that, a personal decision our family made.
Once again, for someone who is claiming to be a captain, you have no guts.
You know who I am. Why won't you sign your name? For someone who claims to have had enough service to serve with 2 generations of Charleston FFs, what do you have to be scared of?
I still cannot understand how you people are being taken as "credible" on this site when you are IN HIDING!? If you truly believe what you say, why wouldn't you put your name by it?
August 25, 2007 at 7:15 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
easybootlicked (anonymous) says...
vesta,
Read what is written, not what you want to see written. I never insinuated that it was their fault. Learn to read, then you can comment on what I post.
August 25, 2007 at 8:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
FF40212,
Learn to get your stories straight. 3 people working with you on your shift heard what you said. You complained about Charleston not only to them but guys in the union you call your friends. Keep popping up running your mouth and you'll get embarassed again because you don't realize whats going on. People were laughing here because they knew your name was on the report. Son, you are one of the worst types. You play up to Chief Thomas after you questioned the department behind his back, left for another job, and talked to guys since then about the job here.
Maybe in Louisville they appreciate your type. Here, we don't.
August 25, 2007 at 10:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
FF40212: We all know that what we may give a superior as a reason for leaving and what we tell our buddies may not always be the same thing. Sometimes we don't tell the real reason to a superior to avoid burning bridges. No shame in it, it's just the way it has to be sometimes.
It surprises me, though, that you seem to think it is so important for people posting here to sign their name. What's up with that? I can tell from many that post here which ones are with the dept and which ones are fire experts from other areas.
I can also tell the ones that aren't well liked or credible.
I can also tell which ones SUPPORT the remaining FF's and which ones are a** kissers. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure it out.
Oh, and before you start spouting off that I'm not a FF and therefore I have no right to comment, I have every right to show my support for the FF and to voice my opinion about the lack of leadership in the department. You don't have to be a faithful employee, disgruntled employee or a boot lick to post here. I am none of those. Just a very concerned citizen. From what I've seen posted here, we, as the supporters for change in leadership have the numbers on our side.
August 25, 2007 at 10:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
CHARLEYTOWNGIRL,
Careful, next thing you know you will be getting private PMs and emails insulting your parenting skills...
August 25, 2007 at 10:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Buzzardman101 (anonymous) says...
Buzzarman is glad to see all of you folk's comments. Many of you see the massive problem the exists within the whole city structure. The mayor is at the top of this chain and bears alot of responsibility. This is what happens when a person rules with an iron fist for many years. Who is to blame?, voters who could care less as long as they get what they want and are partially to blame. Buzzardman sees much "rot and flesh" down there and he is just circling in with his lazer sights on for the "Three Stooges." That would be, Larry, Joe and Ruso. More facts keep coming out exposing problem after problem in the daily operations much less the fire scene incident command leadership catastrophe that exists. How many more negatives will be found? Where is the positive surrounding these (9)deaths? You do not loose nine men without some major issues. If everyone knew what really happened there would be public outcry for immediate resignations or at least suspensions. Only quick and great change in the CFD leadership will lead to a positive outcome. The responsibility and change starts with the mayor and down the line to the 2-scene commanders who did one pitiful job at this great loss of experienced firefighters. Those 2-men really think that they did the best they could and they are not going to change or admit their wrong doings. I still can not believe either of them are allowed to lead men at fires. The CFD will not change with the current chief at the helm. He will continue to do things his way no matter what time tested fire science standards and procedures are available. He has stated his position and only loosened it due to media pressure just to satisfy the minor to date outcry. The CFD has a leadership and old style firefighting cultural problems going way back. Not one person inside the department will be suitable to lead the dept into the future. I do not remember any search for a chief when this current one was appointed by the mayor. I do want to commend favorably on the other memebers of the fire dept during this trying time. The men who man the engines are not to blame. We all know that when the siren is heard, 100% help is on the way. The dept, city council and the mayor will go through major upheavels in the near future but in the end it will be a better system for everyone. Damage control is not an option for good change. I would like to know what the Nine dead firefighter's would think about the situation today. I bet that they would have some real hard comments leading up to the cause of their deaths. They would be shocked as to what factors caused their deaths. Thank God for the newspaper, TV and radio media,the union and people like you all at a time when the facts are hush, hush. First full circle for the Buzzardman.
August 25, 2007 at 10:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Oh, I'm well aware of what his methods of attacking in private are. Amazing that he will make a personal attack on someone in a email and think that doesn't make the rounds? I think he's been well discussed....
Next topic, please........
August 25, 2007 at 10:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Buzzardman,
And I commend you on a BEAUTIFUL full circle you have made...man the skies, oh buzzard...the carcasses are coming.
August 25, 2007 at 10:25 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Back on topic...
I think it is very important to note that on a Firefighter's blog, there is a story of how these same issues were discussed in 1996! Yes, 1996! So, why exactly did the City ignore requests for so long?
Very informative blog...check it out, if you haven't already...
August 25, 2007 at 10:45 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Kudos to Gregorie for demanding the Chief's resignation in today's paper!
August 25, 2007 at 10:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
Who made personal attacks by email? If you are discussing the firefighter from Louisville all you have to do is forward his comments to two locations - The Omsbudsman for the City of Charleston. Explain he is a former employee and good friend of Chief Thomas. This will get forwarded to Chief Thomas via Pam and it will make him livid. A copy also goes on file at 80 Broad.
You should also send copies of the email to the Louisville Fire Chief. Explain the situation. The Chief won't be able to do anything but it will be on record so that if it continues, even once more, you can request the City Of Louisville to look into the matter.
I'm writing to our local president and the Louisville local because he is acting out towards people supportive of the IAFF and firefighters.
August 25, 2007 at 12:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Good idea, Oldcap! His emails to one of the supporters were VERY Ugly!
August 25, 2007 at 12:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Thanks Cap...
August 25, 2007 at 12:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
right2work (anonymous) says...
Silence through fear and intimidation, the union credo. The IAFF is so corrupt, why would we expect any less. It's sad that honest fire fighters are members of such an organization.
http://www.nlpc.org/artindx.asp#ff
August 25, 2007 at 1:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Oldcap don't take Todd serious I'm sure nobody else does. If he's active in Louisville they know what a joke he was.
Todd Bass, Todd Bass, oh yeah James Island threatened to have him arrested if he showed up at more of their fires.
I don't think he deserved to be arrested but apparently he ticks everybody off.
August 25, 2007 at 1:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Unbelievable, that is ONE reason this FD is so screwed up is because this state is Right to Work. It enables the administration to pick and choose whatever they want or don't want to follow, leaving the men voiceless...
But I can assure you that when the Union DOES get a good plug off at the city, EVERY FF benefits, now don't they?
Not knocking those not in the Union, but...remember, the Union fights to butter ALL slices of bread, not just Union members...
August 25, 2007 at 2:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Booster, I actually DID take it pretty seriously...
August 25, 2007 at 2:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ssm (anonymous) says...
Nickie-check you email
August 25, 2007 at 2:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
right2work.........whats your point???
Silence through fear and intimidation....sounds like Rustys credo to me!
Did you look at the whole list?? It's not just the IAFF. Yes, union leaders can be corrupt, just like politicians.......and lawyers, and Accountants, and Doctors......etc!!
Why don't you instead look at what the IAFF HAS accomplished. HR980 is the latest example, this will bring more power to locals in backward states like SC to help FF's protect themselves from greedy cities like Charleston that think they are disposable assets.
August 25, 2007 at 2:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Folks, Inform yourselves on the truth:
http://www.aflcio.org/issues/legislat...
August 25, 2007 at 2:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
right2work (anonymous) says...
I don't believe the AFL-CIO is quite a credible source on this issue. They stand to gain a lot from the passage of HR-980 (IAFF and other public safety unions are member organizations of the AFL-CIO), and the elimination of right to work status. The AFL-CIO and most other labor organizations are CORRUPT at the highest levels.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi...
August 25, 2007 at 2:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
Right2Work,
So, like i said before, WTF is your point!! What is so great about the right to work states?? These men will lay it all on the line for you, to protect you. Both FF's and police. Yet, they are treated with comtempt and intimidation if they dare to speak out about their own safety and working conditions. They need a safety net, and the IAFF (as imperfect as it is) is the best at fighting for it's members and all other FF's too.
Corruption is a joke in this country. Where have you been? Presidents lying to get us into a war. Getting BJ's in the White house. Congressmen, having sex with pages, taking bribes and free trips from lobbyists. Riley using his status as mayor to get favorable zoning changes on his property in other cities. It's everywhere.
Wake up Dorothy, your not in Kansas any more!!!
August 25, 2007 at 2:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
So, right2work, why don't we just leave these men completely unrepresented for a little while longer????? I mean right to work has done so much for whom???????
Give me a break...who the he%% do you work for? SCFA? They paying you to slam the Union? The FF Union is NOT corrupt...I would LOVE to hear your rationale for that one...the FF Union is retired and current FF...are THEY corrupt?? Do tell...
August 25, 2007 at 2:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Absolute power breeds absolute corruption. Rusty only answered to the mayor and the mayor feels he answers to noone. My union has banded a bunch of us little people to face these titons that stand over us who are now accounting for their actions. If that's corrupt then corrupt I am. My leader must account to me and the rest of my brothers with the balls to stand up and back the union. This is done at our monthly meetings.
I can't speak for the AFL CIO but local 61 answers to its members.
August 25, 2007 at 3:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
right2work (anonymous) says...
I'm not a member of or affiliated in anyway with the SCFA, but I understand that it is a fine and upstanding organization. It seems to be devoid of corruption present in the labor movement. The SCFA doesn't openly oppose it's members attempts to better their community like the IAFF does. Just try being an IAFF member and volunteering your services as a firefighter for the betterment of your community. The local organization in Charleston may not be a problem, but they are supporting the national organization with their dues. The national organization of the IAFF is problematic to say the least. Unfortunately guilt by association applies.
http://firechief.com/leadership/manag...
August 25, 2007 at 3:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Well, right2work, as many have said before...you don't have to join, your Union brothers will work their a$$es off for you and YOU still get to benefit...pathetic actually
August 25, 2007 at 3:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
So R2w what I'm getting out of this is you are working for free in an attempt to suck up to the man. Underpaid ff's are working 2 jobs and don't have the time or energy leftover to "better their community". Is that what your problem is?
If not then you need to spell it out. I don't have the time guess at what you mean seeing as I'm on my 6 day week right now.
The only relief and help has been from my union so why don't you run off to your Republican fundraiser and quit knocking the IAFF.
August 25, 2007 at 4:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Sorry, It's a 7 day work week this time.
August 25, 2007 at 4:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
Right2Work, About the SCFA, any fire organization that has a "join Rudy08", has no credibility in my opinion. He is an idiot and no friend of the FF's that has managed to BS the Repugs into thinking he's this savior. Ask any FDNY brother what they think of him.
The fight here is not the scuffle in PGC. It is the local union trying to stand up to a "corrupt old boys club" that directly contributed to the deaths of nine of their brothers, both union and non-union. Truth be told, most of those double-dippers are doing it because it's easy money, not to better their skills or serve the community. To volunteer in their own city which they work, for free, is an FLSA violation and they are also screwing themselves out of o/t.
Do I agree with everything the Intl does, of course not. If I blindly followed them I'd be a kool-aid drinker like you obviouly are with your right to work BS.
August 25, 2007 at 4:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FF40212 (anonymous) says...
charleytowngirl - I won't argue with your point about folks giving various reasons for why they left. I am just here to tell you that I had no idea my name was in that report.
My wife is from Louisville. Her family lives here. I took the tests here because of that (1 time and was hired). I took the tests in Charlotte because my family lives in the Upstate (again, I was hired there on the first try also). I took the Louisville job for the benefits and because the KY Retirement System gives me credit for my service years in Charleston. And yes, Louisville is a 100% IAFF Union department.
I am simply saying, it was a decision for my family. Sorry that doesn't fit your conspiracy theories.
oldyeller - You are absolutely talking out of your a*%. You are also more than welcome to e-mail whomever you wish. As for the young ladies asserting that I somehow wrote threatening e-mails, I can assure you the insults started on the other side. Also, at no time did I mention ANYONE by names. I forwarded several of the e-mails to other folks in case they were "doctored" by the recipients.
Lastly, as for the question about these posts not being signed. How in the world can you honestly expect to be taken seriously if you don't sign your name? Its like lobbing hand grenades in a debate. What is the point? If you all are so sure you are right, why would you need to stay in hiding?
Honesty........some of you should try it sometime.
August 25, 2007 at 5:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
So why did James Island FD threaten to arrest you?
August 25, 2007 at 5:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
Right2Work:
I understand your position but the SCFFA is now and has been a joke. It's not taken seriously except by those who are funded by it to make websites and promote presidential candidates.
It does not represent professional firefighters in any way shape or form.
Let's see what Mr. Bowie (The President of the SCFA and the Rudy 08 campaign loser, in a week or so, when reminded of his strong words of support of Chief Thomas by a large regional newspaper, has to say. He will avoid it with pollitical skill. Why? He's a politician. A two bit hack that couldn't hack it with the City of Charleston and went to a series of jobs where he knew he would be safe.
Roger Yow has done a good job with our local. He has been aided by a website and the paper but the ball is rolling and this one won't stop. 9 men gave their lives. We can wait but change will be had.
August 25, 2007 at 5:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
James Island was way off base with Bass. They should have never threatened him like that. I'll take up for him on that issue.
As for everything else, not his careful explanations explaining away all of his past activities. If he weren't backstabbing the brothers here and in Louisville he wouldn't run his mouth.
Again, forward those emails to the right people. The Mayor will be furious with Rusty that a former emplyee with close ties is sending out nasty emails.
August 25, 2007 at 5:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
I believe they thought he had something to do with those fires. Not saying I think that myself.
August 25, 2007 at 5:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
OldCap,
I have all the exchanges...even my comments in return...anyone wants them, I have them ALL. You can have them and do with them what you like.
August 25, 2007 at 6:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
ms Nickie if you would, print them out and send them to Fire Chief 46 1/2 Wentworth Street, Charleston, SC 29401
Also send them to Omsbudsman, 80 Broad Street, Charleston SC 29401
This puts them on the record. Despite any other claims, a public servant is supposed to withold nasty remarks in public. His employer in Louisville should also receive a copy.
August 25, 2007 at 6:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
Boosterhose,
He ain't the smartest boy but that whole thing was about the feud between James Island and the City. But I like the way you tackle his bs.
August 25, 2007 at 6:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
I can understand how JI felt. They had an arsonist in their FD past also. The city has too. I guess most departments can sy the same thing.
August 25, 2007 at 6:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
Good point Boosterhose.
August 25, 2007 at 6:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FF40212 (anonymous) says...
oldyeller and booster - the JI issue was never anything brought to fruition. I was never contacted by any law enforcement agency. There was an instance where CCSO was called to an incident that I was also at in Westchester subdivision. Of course, that neighborhood is in the City of Charleston and I was there to assist E7, E13, & T5 with a fire run. I have no recollection of any arsonist on JIFD or CFD.
Also, I don't know where you are getting that I have sent any "nasty", "threatening", or derrogatory e-mails. I have not been critical of any union member either. I also have the full correspondence that I am assuming is in question. Again, I was SENT the first part of the exchange.
I have never mentioned anyone's name in any e-mails.
I have also not "questioned anyone's parenting skills" any more than someone insulting my wife (who has nothing to do with the events of June 18th).
August 25, 2007 at 10:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FF40212 (anonymous) says...
oldyeller - The funny part is you are calling me a backstabber (please, give us an couple of instances)? All the while you are hiding behind an anonymous screen name?
Coward to the end..................
August 25, 2007 at 10:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
If you have the full correspondence could you send it to me. If someone has lied about you I'll defend you. What I received was you being very nasty. If that's not the case I'll be happy to say so. They were forwarded to a bunch of people including the ones sent on here. Post them and let us all see.
As for backstabbing, guys say they remember the tales you took to Rusty. In 16 and on Coming street.
August 25, 2007 at 10:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Tod you were once advised to "Go home, mind your own business, and quit coming back." This would apply now also.
August 25, 2007 at 10:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
Unless he's created some fake emails. He's that type of thinker.
August 25, 2007 at 10:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
I bet he say's he won't post them out of respect or something. That's a dead tip off to bs.
August 25, 2007 at 10:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
What you have OldCap IS the full correspondence...I never insulted anyone's wife...I called him "Robin's Boy"...
August 25, 2007 at 10:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FF40212 (anonymous) says...
Oldcap - you can e-mail me and I will gladly send you them. I can assure you 100% that there is nothing "nasty" in them at all. Anyone who knows me, knows that I don't speak with any vulgarity. I will admit to being a smart alec, but never anything like what is being described. Hence the reason I have no fear of anything I have written.
Nickie - you put more insults in there than the "Robin's boy". I think you are a bit misguided, but even what you wrote I wouldn't consider as "nasty". Also, it is important to note that YOU sent ME the original e-mail (how else would I have your e-mail address?) with insults in it. Tell the truth now........
Booster - it's funny, a couple of the posts on here mirror ones from people that I DO know who they are. Hmmmmm You wouldn't be an example of one of those folks who has 2 or 3 user names on here would you?
As for you all trying to intimidate me for posting my OPINION - it is funny the double standard you are trying to impose. You only want people who agree with you on here? You are critical of me (personally), all the while dodging the issues at hand? All the while you hide? Come out! Let's talk about your experiences! Let's talk about your histories!
Keep hiding.............you have to, don't you?
August 25, 2007 at 10:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FF40212 (anonymous) says...
Also, I was sent an e-mail by a former CFD member this past week asking me why I was sending out e-mails that were critical of him. I have never mentioned ANYONE by name in ANY e-mail. In fact, I have no reason to be critical of this person at all (that I know of).
Whatever you have had to have been "doctored". I asked him to forward it to me also. Hopefully I will get it soon.
Some of this stuff is getting ridiculous.......
August 25, 2007 at 10:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
Todd - you bring it on yourself. Not for your opinions but the way you are intolerant of everyone else. It's a reason so few people liked you though they aren't going to tell you that because they know you are kind of sensitive.
Don't mean to hurt you but it's the truth. As for 2 or 3 id's the one person you seem to hate most doesn't hide his name either. Go talk to him if you have balls.
August 25, 2007 at 11:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
OldCap,
This began as a post on this site...another story...I responded respectfully, he PMd me...gave me his private email address, and I sent a POLITE email telling him I stand by my words...
His emails increased in rudeness, I reciprocated, he reciprocated again, as did I...calling him Robins boy and asking if he had Napoleonic syndrome...He returned with jibberish and an insult on my parenting skills...I did NOT respond, he then sent me another email in what I assumed is an attack on the Union Pres. Yow...demanding that I ask certain personal questions, I refused to acknowledge his emails, and did not respond...two days later, I received another email I believe yesterday or the day before, and once again he asked me if I questioned Yow...I did NOT respond...I asked advice from someone else, and they advised me to tell him to cease and desist, which I did...end of story...I NEVER threatened anyone other than to say I would go to authorities if he didn't stop, nor did I insult anyone's wife, children, etc. NEVER...I don't care if he has an opposing opinion, its the personal attacks I want him to stop. I am guilty of allowing it to escalate, and nothing more.
August 25, 2007 at 11:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Did you get my last post?
August 25, 2007 at 11:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BattChiefNCFD (anonymous) says...
Todd, why do you criticize the posters on this site who post under anonymous names? You did not use your name when you originally posted nor do you use it now; instead you used the FF40212 name. I don't know about the others who post here, but I could care less about taking the time to find out who's posting on here by checking IP #'s, or zip codes. I understand the reason the guys are doing so, and you should also. You've worked for the same department they do, and I'm sure both CFD & NCFD firefighter's fear retaliation for comments they make either here or on other sites in the same manner many have suffered over the years for making comments negative to the way the department or administration is running things, or policies they implement. Another little myth about the fire department . . . there is an awful lot of back-stabbing! A lot of scum-bags who call themselves brothers will stab someone "they claim to be a friend" in the back if it benefits them in certain situations like for example promotions. Believe me, I've experienced first hand what a** kissing does when promotions come about. I don't know who the guys are on here that are posting, maybe you do; but I certainly don't condemn them for keeping their identities a secret. Maybe some are on here to bash the department for old grudges, but that's not for me, you, or anyone else to decide. The truth of the matter is, 9 brothers died, and while unfortunately it happened to CFD, it could very easily have happened to NCFD or any other area department because we all suffer many of the same problems. Too few firefighters on the truck, not enough respect or support from city leaders, and pay that is so dismal, most firefighters work 2 & 3 jobs just to make ends meet. This seems to be the focus of the posters on here and many other sites. I don't know how things are ran in Louisville, but you know how things are ran here in Charleston, and you know the truth as well as the rest of us. Instead of bickering over juvenile remarks, let's put the knowledge to use & educate the rest of the citizens who have no idea how much help their fire departments need. I think that would be the best way to honor Capt. Billy, Capt. Benke, Louis, Mark, Brad, Brandon, Mike, Melvin, & Earl.
Chief V
August 25, 2007 at 11:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
The truth is that we are ALL upset over this tragedy...each in their own way...the facts coming out support what most of us are saying, that management and administration of this department failed. In no way is that an insult to the men who are lost. Much to the contrary, it is an acknowledgment of the failures and a sincere wish not to have any more deaths in the future. Why does THAT draw so much hatred? I don't know...the facts are: people need to be accountable, and our opinions of who those people are are different...so what? We are ALL asking questions, demanding answers...that is what we are supposed to do...
THIS kind of slinging hash is NOT what is helping. Demanding answers is what needs to happen...NOT Jerry Springer...
I just want that person to LEAVE me alone...that's all I ask..
August 25, 2007 at 11:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldfric07 (anonymous) says...
Go back to the issues. Todd, if you leave it alone it will stay left alone. It dies down and you come back. You have done more to incite interest than anyone else. It's almost as if you seek to keep it going.
August 25, 2007 at 11:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
No one believes Bass. He probably went back and touched up the email. Lets get back to issues.
August 25, 2007 at 11:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FF40212 (anonymous) says...
oldyeller - believe me, I am not intollerant of anyone. I understand that folks have their own opinions. Here is the thing though, those folks have histories and grudges that were around long before June 18th. They are trying to use this as a spring board to launch personal attacks and "get even". To me, that isn't right.
Not sure how you figure me to be the sensitive type. I think most anyone who worked with me while I was on CFD knows my work ethic, how I cared about fellow Company members, and the things that I contributed to my community. I will let that speak for itself, regardless of how folks on here try their best to twist facts.
Nickie - you are telling half of the story. You know the truth. You are saying that I insulted Captain Yow? I asked you to ask him to repeat a story to you that he told to me, personally. I don't think that is in anyway an insult to him. He was my first Captain when I was assigned to E16. He and I never had any issues. He was in on a couple of practical jokes that I stepped right into (he knows - wink wink), but I sincerely enjoyed working for the man and to this day I respect what he did for me. I have no reason to be critical of him personally.
oldfric - where do I start with you? Hmmmmm I better be careful, I know who you are....
I will agree with you though, I do probably provide the lightning rod for "your side". If I was smart, I wouldn't argue with you all. It isn't getting any of us anywhere anyways.
Chief Varella - Wow. You and I certainly do know one another. I think we spent a week at burn camp discussing tactics didn't we? I have always thought highly of you as well.
To answer your question, I guess I was just raised different. My father taught me that if you can't be a man and say something to someones face, then you aren't much of a man. I just think it is juvenile and cowardly for people to get on here and spew and not be accountable. Here I am, everyone knows me, they attack me personally and don't have to answer for themselves. To me, that is not honorable...
Thanks for your concern though. Take care.....
August 25, 2007 at 11:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
Todd,
You have a saint complex. Always have. You also are led easily into logic traps but that's not your fault-you were born that way.
Many of us have talked to Roger, Robert, Lee, Joey and a host of others and it's the same response with you-people shake their head because you are out in left field.
If your dad taught you that anyione not using their name is not a man does that mean he believes that men who have worked as whislteblowers are not men. How about people who have reported horrendous acts the public didn't know about? Not men?
You have a warped version of honor. This isn't Camelot son. It's the real world. Welcome to the jungle.
August 25, 2007 at 11:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
No half stories on my end...I said I ASSUMED it was meant to be an insult on Yow...ASSUMED...now PLEASE LEAVE ME ALONE! PLEASE
August 25, 2007 at 11:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Todd read my next to last post. Its good advice.
August 25, 2007 at 11:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldfric07 (anonymous) says...
Todd: Just let it be. Really. You aren't a bad guy. Just leave it be. It's a vicious cycle of post, counter post.
Everyone else could also let it go. All of us can move away from it right now.
August 26, 2007 at 12:01 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
I'm done Fric..I'm sorry
August 26, 2007 at 12:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
FF40212: Personally I could care less why you left the department. If you read the post, I was simply saying that we don't always give our superiors the real reason for leaving a job so as not to burn any bridges, nothing more nothing less. Did not require an explanation on your part.
Quote from FF40212 "I am simply saying, it was a decision for my family. Sorry that doesn't fit your conspiracy theories."
As for conspiracy theories, I don't have one. But I do believe what I had heard and seen with my own eyes and ears and my opinion wasn't formulated on the comments of people posting on these stories. Although I do respect alot of the comments I have heard from people, I made my own decisions and form my own opinion as to what happened and I stand by my opinion.
But once again, you took one comment and launched an attack on me by insinuating that I believe in a "conspiracy theory" Where the hell did that come from?!?!?
And FF40212, no reply necessary. I've not launched a personal attack here, just defending myself, which is seems a lot of people feel the need to do when you post your comments.
As for not signing my name, the people that know me, know who I am, why I am so passionate about finding out the truth. My reasons are not something I choose to share with everyone, only the people I trust. No one else here cares who I am or why I feel the way I do. Why should you worry about it?
August 26, 2007 at 12:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Sorry Fric, I must have been typing my reply when you last post came up. I'd done, but I won't be stepped on by someone that does not even know me.
August 26, 2007 at 12:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ssm (anonymous) says...
The coins are ready. Check out the pictures of them at www.local61.com
August 26, 2007 at 8:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
They are beautiful...a wonderful way to commemorate the men.
August 26, 2007 at 10:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
Very nice coins, and a great tribute.
August 26, 2007 at 10:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
What a great way to honor our men. Don't just visit-buy one. Roger and the local have worked tirelessly to help out.
On another note and one of my pet peeves, Firefighter Hourly talks about the chief only sending one engine to the hospitals for alarm activations. Please read it and write the mayor.
http://www.firefighterhourly.com/fire...
August 26, 2007 at 11:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Cap,
I thought they were beginning to send more trucks in on calls? Is it just being done on private residences?
August 26, 2007 at 12:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Bickle,
Please give my condolences to your brothers up there on the loss of Wayne Topping. Thoughts and prayers are with his family, and you all in Canada.
August 26, 2007 at 1:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
IMPORTANT:
This link is to the www.firefighterhourly.com blog. http://www.firefighterhourly.com/fire...
This is a seriously important issue that needs to be addressed. Please call or write your Mayor and Council members and demand this change in practice. Fire alarms to hospitals are very common, however no one really knows if it is a false alarm or the real thing until they have already committed their crew to those buildings. Why take chances by only sending one truck to hospitals and schools?
August 26, 2007 at 1:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
We are sending Engine 15 to MUSC and Engine 3 to the college dorms. No extra response on it and frankly the responses haven't changed that much. Still just the single engine or a 2 and 1.
The task force had to know this wouldn't be implemented correctly. Think about the schools, hospitals, college buildings - if an ADT alarm goes off you get a single engine. On Daniel Island, at Mikasa, a huge structure you get 1 engine for a regular adt, sonitrol or whatever.
I think they are challenging the task force.
August 26, 2007 at 2:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Cap,
Please clarify what you just said for me? Are you saying you think the current administration is challenging the task force?
I have sent a letter to the City Council members, and about 40 Charleston residents addressing this concern. PLEASE keep up posted on this issue?
August 26, 2007 at 3:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
And yet another nail in the box!
http://www.thestate.com/news/story/15...
August 26, 2007 at 3:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
Considering the response upgrade is not being followed I am saying it appears as though the task force recommendations are being followed only to the extent of plain language and hose. The responses are supposed to be upgraded and that's vital. If three people arrive on the first engine and fight fire remember the 3rd person stays outside to pump the truck. By adding extra engines you bring more people to the scene. We should also be sending two ladders on schools, high rises, and hospitals. As it is now we aren't getting one.
August 26, 2007 at 4:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
What's the response plan for large hotels? How many engines and trucks respond on a typical alarm?
Also wondering what the plan is for cruise ships when they are in the terminal.. Is this under a different jurisdiction, i.e. port authority or Coast Guard? If so, is the CFD slated to provide mutual aid/back-up?
Same goes for cargo ships while at Port of Charleston and Wando Welch, particularly tankers with fuel or potentially dicey chemicals, i.e. chlorine... Although the ports aren't in the city limits, does CFD provide back-up?
At least one doc suggests that local FDs are part of the loop, but don't know the full details:
http://www.scdhec.gov/lwm/pubs/FOIscp...
Here's another related article:
http://pub.sysplan.com/Port_Security_...
August 26, 2007 at 5:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Cap, Good point about three men on a truck, one stays outside...I forgot that tidbit..makes it even worse, doesn't it?
August 26, 2007 at 6:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BattChiefNCFD (anonymous) says...
FiddlerCrab7
Just to answer your post; yes the ports are ALL within the jurisdictions of each city: Charleston Port, Wando, & North Charleston. Each is protected by their respective departments. Also, since April of 1996 we have provided protection to the former Naval Base. The shipyard has been in operation since the Navy pulled out, and 3 Coast Guard Ships, and 5 Ro-Ro ships call the former Naval Base home. During the past 11 1/2 years we have had numerous fire aboard ships, and on at least two occassions have received assistance from the Charleston County MIRT Team (Marine Incident Response Team); this team is made up of firefighters from NCFD, CFD, MTPFD, StAFD, StJFD, etc. and was formed over 10 years ago. We respond to marine incidents within Charleston County. We have received excellent training over the past 10 years and just recently attended a ship-board firefighting class @ Texas A&M University last year.
August 26, 2007 at 6:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
BattChief,
You mean the Coast Guard isn't protecting their own interests? You are a member of this MIRT?
August 26, 2007 at 6:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Thanks for the info on ships -- glad to know there's good training and prep.
What about the response for automatic alarms in hotels... Is it the same as for schools and hospitals?
I would think schools, hospitals, and hotels all pose serious dangers, considering the probable disorientation of occupants. Hospitals add extra complexity because of the mobility issues with patients and equipment.
F7
August 26, 2007 at 6:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
The PIO job CFD is posting for is going to be a worthless position. Until Rusty and the mayor are gone, it will be "No comment at this time" or more glorification based on the #1 ISO rating. I am sure the one hired for this position will be sure to "pad up" Riley's role in making changes, just in time for the election.
I, too, am appalled at a single engine to the hospital. Like Nickie, I am thinking, "What if this is not a false alarm....how long until backup gets there? Sounds like things haven't changed or are going to change at all....still the chief's way or the highway. Are the panel members aware of this???
August 26, 2007 at 6:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Fiddler,
You are correct...it was explained to me by someone else that if one of the ships call in a report of a fire, then they will respond fully, if it is an automatic alarm, like smoke detector setting off an alarm, then the response is one truck...that is my understanding.
August 26, 2007 at 6:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BattChiefNCFD (anonymous) says...
Nickie,
Yes the Coast Guard would also respond, but they would be a resource. They would provide expertise & advise, but unless things went to "Hell in a hand basket" they would not take command of the scene. Yes I am a member of the MIRT Team as well as the Chas. Co. COBRA Team.
In reference to the response to hotels, schools, commercial businesses, etc.; I can't speak for CFD, but we respond 2 Engines, 1 Truck for all reports of Fire Alarms. The first due Engine runs lights & siren with the other units responding with non-lights & siren. The only apparatus that is not responding would be the Rescue Co. If a report of a working fire comes in, then the other units go to lights & siren, the Rescue responds and an automatic 3rd Engine would respond. This is the only differnce between alarms, and reports of structure fires. We are currently considering changing our response to reports of structure fires to include 3 Engines, 1 Truck, & 1 Rescue with a 4th due Engine responding for RIT upon report of a working fire. RIT would be provided by one of the initial responding units until arrival of the 4th Engine who's only assingment would be RIT.
August 26, 2007 at 7:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
Interesting information for those that aren't firefighters, or haven't been "around" the fire service.
http://www.riotacts.com/fire/reporter...
August 26, 2007 at 8:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
Auto alarms at hotels get a single engine in the CFD. One. Single. Uno.
August 26, 2007 at 9:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
OldCap,
Let's hope we don't have to deal with a serious incident in any of these environments, until we can at least do something to arm you all with the responses that you need.
Stay safe gentlemen.
August 26, 2007 at 9:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
And the city just voted just last week to rezone property for a new hotel, up to 105 feet tall, right?.
http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/a...
You'd think they'd want to take a hard look at their public-safety infrastructure first.
F7
August 26, 2007 at 11:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Fiddler,
I know they were discussing it..there was some dissension among the "ranks" on the height requirements, as it would well exceed the restrictions..I guess if they did vote it in, then it would seem their motivations are more about the money with total disregard for the safety of protecting those within it or rescuing from it.
August 27, 2007 at 12:02 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
I thought ISO required TWO engines be sent to every alarm. How did CFD get around that for a #1 rating????
August 27, 2007 at 9:11 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Vesta... :)
August 27, 2007 at 10:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Did anyone hear on the news last night (Channel 5) that the feds are coming in to investigate CFD's ff employment? I only caught a brief smidgen of it.
August 27, 2007 at 11:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Didn't see that, looking on their site too, but don't see anything there either...
August 27, 2007 at 12:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
ISO don't know.
August 27, 2007 at 12:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Vesta, check your email
August 27, 2007 at 2:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Has anyone else noticed that this article and the last City Council article are no longer listed on the fire summary page?
http://www.charleston.net/news/firefi...
August 27, 2007 at 5:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/a...
Here's the link to the City Council article..I don't understand why they aren't on the summary page either, Fiddler.
August 27, 2007 at 6:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FunandGames (anonymous) says...
Ron got the article back on the summary page.
August 28, 2007 at 9:21 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
east3 (anonymous) says...
I shouldn't rise to the bait, but the false statements by right2work irk me. He is more interested first of all in union bashing than discussing any of the relevant issues. The IAFF is not corrupt. There is no intimidation or silence or fear from the union. Give me a break. There are 280,000 members and over 3000 local unions and that stupid website he refers to has a few stories about local officials embezzeling funds and getting caught, many of them years old. These are lumped in with stories about completely legal political fundraising and contributions, a story about a former cop pretending to be a firefighter to do fundraising which has absolutely nothing to do with the union, another bashing a former union official appointed to some position by Tommy Thompson, a Republican governor and candidate for President, and my favorite, which fully demonstrates the care with which this website does it's homework, a story about the International Board of Firemen and Oilers, which must be some venerable railroad union, included because it contained the word "firemen". That's why we adopted the term "firefighters" - so we wouldn't be confused with guys who used to shovel coal on trains. (Nothing against our brother railroad firemen and oilers...) So ignore the lies. The IAFF is an honest and democratic union that has fought for decades for safety for professional firefighters, not to mention better pay and benefits, federal LODD benefits, better staffing - which makes both citizens and firefighters safer - covering fire stations under OSHA, etc. By the way, it's the federal Fair Labor Standards Act that makes it illegal for career firefighters to volunteer as firefighters for their own department without getting overtime pay. [Yes, what a surprise, in addition to everything else, the city is violating federal labor law.]This is to protect workers from being coerced to contribute free hours for no pay. The law and the union PROTECTS workers from intimidation and coercion. The CFD FF should all join the local and they will have a voice, and if the federal collective bargaining act for safety workers passes, they will have a federally protected voice.
August 29, 2007 at 12:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ssm (anonymous) says...
"According to the federal Bureau of Labor Statistics, the rate of workplace deaths is 51 percent higher in states with right to work, where unions can't speak up on behalf of workers."
August 29, 2007 at 6:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
I have received word that our Council members mailboxes(email, and physical mail) largely sit empty most of the time. Inaction is what created this tragedy. Failure of people to speak up and be heard will perpetuate more tragedies in the future. Instead of being afraid of the confrontation, you should be looking in the mirrors and be ASHAMED of what you see...
Shame on you Charlestonians for doing nothing..you should be mad as HE**, and tired of the lies and sidestepping. The next tragedy will have bigger ramifications and more blame to share...
August 30, 2007 at 12:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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