Fire training ripe for cheating
City firefighters say answers shared during online certification exams
City firefighters say answers shared during online certification exams
The Post and Courier
(left) Roger Yow, Charleston Firefighters Association director, (right) Fire Chief Rusty Thomas
The personnel files of Charleston's top firefighters brim with impressive training certificates. But some of those documents come from online correspondence courses where certificates can be earned and printed from a computer in 15 minutes or less.
Some former and current firefighters say the federal government's online training system is ripe for cheating. Sheets of correct answers have routinely been shared among firefighters to ensure passing grades, they say.
Jamy Cote, who left the Charleston Fire Department last year, said it was not unusual for firefighters to be provided the answers to certain tests before taking the final exam. That way the department could ensure that it complied with federal training requirements with minimal time spent on the exercise, he said.
The sharing of answers is a common practice and is condoned by the department commanders, a current city firefighter said. At least four other former or current firefighters said the same thing. The current employees spoke only on the condition of anonymity, fearing that their careers could be damaged by speaking out. Fire Chief Rusty Thomas issued a memo on June 20 barring his firefighters from speaking to the media about the blaze.
Many of the certificates came from online courses offered by the Federal Emergency Management Agency. Mike Stoll, who oversees the independent study program for FEMA, said the agency is aware that the program is vulnerable to cheating.
"You know people will do anything they can to make it easier," Stoll said. "How do you stop that?"
In written responses to questions from The Post and Courier, city officials said the city is concerned about the allegation of cheating and does not condone such activity. The city also said it would investigate the allegations if the newspaper provides "any specific information" about cheating. In addition, the city said it has no control over the online courses offered by other agencies.
The training provided to Charleston firefighters is one of the areas that an independent panel of fire experts plans to study as part of its review of the Sofa Super Store blaze that killed nine Charleston-area firefighters on June 18. Mayor Joe Riley named the six-member panel to study all aspects of the fire and the city's ability to respond to such emergencies.
A number of fire service professionals have pointed to lapses in professional standards and accepted firefighting tactics in the sofa store fire. Among other things, experts have questioned why firefighters did not wear full protective gear, pulled undersized hose lines on such a large fire and entered a building with a roof design known to collapse within minutes when exposed to fire.
Thomas and his commanders take pride in the department's rich history and in the tactics it has honed during more than a century of firefighting in Charleston. That knowledge is passed from generation to generation and reinforced with daily, in-house training sessions the department conducts for its firefighters. Over and over they practice tying knots, raising ladders and connecting hoses to hydrants.
But some current and former firefighters worry that this training has failed to keep pace with important developments in the profession brought on by technological innovations, changes in the way buildings are constructed and advances in strategic planning and command. Those firefighters also complain that the department doesn't seek enough outside training for its firefighters from the South Carolina Fire Academy and other sources.
The Charleston Fire Department has budgeted $6,000 this year for training for its 240 members — far less than many surrounding smaller departments. Mount Pleasant Fire Department, with 120 firefighters, budgets around $34,000 a year for training and another $17,000 for travel to fire academies, trade shows, conferences and other events. The North Charleston Fire Department has a $45,000 annual budget for training alone. The Summerville Fire Department has $25,000 budgeted for training its 69 paid firefighters and 41 volunteers.
The city says it supplements the $6,000 with in-house training from skilled instructors, low cost local, state and federal classes and, among other things, guest trainers.
The amount of training received by Charleston firefighters and their commanders varies greatly from individual to individual, regardless of rank, according to state and local records obtained by The Post and Courier through Freedom of Information Act requests.
Roger Yow, who heads the local firefighters' union, Charleston Firefighters Association, that represents nearly half of the department's firefighters, said the department does not provide enough outside training opportunities for firefighters. "The chief has always been against it because he wants people trained his way."
Some commanding officers have files thick with diplomas from state and national courses, while others are filled largely with online certificates. Thomas, for instance, has taken only three training courses outside the department in the past seven years, one of which was an online course offered through FEMA.
Many of FEMA's online courses focus on crucial aspects of the National Incident Management System, which is designed to standardize the command structure across public safety agencies at all levels of government. The goal is to ensure that all first-responders are on the same page in the event of a major disaster.
Incident command has become a thorny subject for the Charleston Fire Department in the aftermath of the sofa store fire. Among other things, fire safety experts have questioned Assistant Fire Chief Larry Garvin's decision to enter the burning store multiple times while serving as the incident commander. Federal rules call for the incident commander to maintain overall authority from outside so he will have a complete view of the fire, how it is being fought and where each firefighter is located.
Thomas has said that he doesn't know if his department procedures mirror those prescribed in the National Incident Management System. The department's policy manual, however, says the department "acknowledges, endorses and will use" those national standards. Most of his top commanders have obtained online certificates through FEMA, attesting to their knowledge of that federal incident command system.
In its written responses to questions, the city said "The Charleston Fire Department exercises incident command and trains all members in the NIMS system."
FEMA offers a variety of online training courses in incident management through which first- responders can earn certificates of achievement. But there are no safeguards in place to ensure that test-takers have completed the actual lesson plans offered. The final tests can be downloaded without taking the courses, and many of the answers can be gleaned from simple online lesson summaries.
Reporters from The Post and Courier successfully obtained several certificates from the federal emergency agency's courses without studying the lesson materials. Some completed the tests and obtained certificates in as little as five minutes by simply copying the answers provided by a reporter who had already passed. The certificates arrived via e-mail within minutes, the test-taker's name neatly printed on the official-looking document.
Fire department leaders continue to amass certificates from the online courses. Just this month, Garvin, who was the initial incident commander at the sofa store fire, obtained a certificate for a course on the National Response Plan. And on one day in May, one high-level Charleston fire commander earned a certificate from three separate online courses offered by FEMA.
Stoll of FEMA said the online courses are extremely popular among public safety workers around the country. Since October, more than 3 million people have logged on to take courses. But the convenience of the system comes with its own problems, including possible cheating. Stoll said his office even receives reports of answer keys being offered on eBay.
The importance of following the lessons taught in these courses cannot be underestimated, federal and state officials said. At any moment, a local police or fire department could find themselves dealing with a catastrophic emergency in which they have to deal with an alphabet-soup of outside government agencies. Such was the case in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina and, more recently, in Minneapolis after a major bridge collapsed Aug. 1.
Fire department leaders must insist that their firefighters buy into the proven management system, said David Grahl, a district chief with Dayton (Ohio) Fire Department. Otherwise, he said, "it will be a paper system, not the real system."
The management system is supposed to be used at all emergencies from car accidents and house fires to hurricanes and wildfires. "It is important on every event," State Fire Academy Superintendant Ed Roper said. "If you are not doing it on the smaller events, you won't be successful with it on the bigger events."
Reach Glenn Smith at 937-5556 or gsmith@postandcourier.com. Reach Ron Menchaca at 937-5724 or rmenchaca@postandcourier.com.
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Comments
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
The City of North Charleston with an equal size fire brigade spends $45,000 a year on quality training. The city of charleston spends $6,000 training 'their' way. Amazing, simply amazing. Looks as if the city of charleston has a very serious leadership problem for condoning this action. There are none more blind than those who 'will' not see. Open your eyes and see whats happing to your city, charleston.
August 12, 2007 at 7:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JonWithnal (anonymous) says...
Wait a second...is this actual reporting? Congrats P&C...after 1,000 puff pieces about firefighting -(which no thinking person gave a darn about)-you finally do some actual reporting. Those 9 guys didn't die because of bravery, they died because the fire department is incompetent. It was avoidable.
August 12, 2007 at 8:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mac0cm4 (anonymous) says...
The basic NIMS courses online are just a rehashed 'new' version of ICS, which most agencies are familiar with to begin with. The NIMS online courses are often viewed as 'a box that needs to be checked off.' Not to mention they are even more dull than the classroom courses.
NIMS itself is generally a good idea, however there are elements of the system and its implementation that need work. In order to convince all state and local governments to adopt it DHS/FEMA resorted to financial blackmail: Do this or we don't give you any money. And I know you're not surprised that the local agencies can and have been 'bought.' Another flawed aspect is that pencil pushers and 'experts' have made most of the decisions and written most of the NIMS documents - many of these are the same people that orchestrated the 'smooth' Katrina response a few years ago. It's hard to believe that those people in Washington D.C. know how to best run a department elsewhere when we all know just how well D.C. is run.
The usage of NIMS, IMHO, is a good idea on incidents that require it (logically). A minor incident such as a stubbed toe (yes, people call 911 for such stuff) is not likely to benefit from the use of NIMS. Most agencies use at least a portion of NIMS/ICS on every call to begin with and the full implementation might be overkill in many situations.
August 12, 2007 at 8:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
Finally the truth begins to come out.
August 12, 2007 at 8:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
chiefswife (anonymous) says...
I agree with you 100% JonWithnal. This was avoidable, and it will be proven time and time again as more evidence is uncovered. You can't simply give men gear and tell them to go fight fire. There is a lot more to it, or you see the end results. I know that with each call my husband answers, there is a risk of it being his last. I also know that if it is his last, it is not because he has been thrown to the wolves like these guys were.
August 12, 2007 at 8:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
http://www.firefighterhourly.com/
This guy was saying it ALL ALONG!
August 12, 2007 at 9:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
PI_Observer (anonymous) says...
"We've been doing it this way for years" is a comment you hear often in Charleston. A Mayor that has been in office since 1976 should tell you a lot. He also tolerated a Police Chief who was clearly out of control for years.
This, from the above article speaks volumes. Roger Yow, who heads the local firefighters' union, Charleston Firefighters Association, that represents nearly half of the department's firefighters, said the department does not provide enough outside training opportunities for firefighters. "The chief has always been against it because he wants people trained his way."
Obviously "The Chief's way" did not work and nine firefighters were lost unnecessarily. Truly a tragedy.
August 12, 2007 at 9:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
deputy216 (anonymous) says...
As a deputy in georgia for over twenty seven years we had our training via law inforcement network on television and had to take tests and after that we were in the classroom for inservice tng.training is paramount and on hands and classroom will help in the long run.Your life and everyone around you depends on it.My hat is off to all firefighters and the job they face.
August 12, 2007 at 9:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
deputy216: Unfortunately, for all CFD ffs, "the job they face" isn't just dealing with the dangers of fires/wrecks/other incidents. Entering a fire ground, untrained, is very much like sending a child with a BB rifle into a shoot out with one of the FBI's most wanted. You don't need to guess who won't come out of that one alive. Most of us on these boards are 100 percent behind ffs and law enforcement. You aren't paid enough for what you do, but by thunder you ought to be properly trained and equipped and have proper leadership. "Let no man's ghost return to say his training let him down." (Old fire service quote from firefighter hourly)
August 12, 2007 at 10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
(jaw on floor)
For the love of the Freedom of Information Act.....
August 12, 2007 at 10:06 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
PoliGadfly (anonymous) says...
If the online training was a rehash of other training and boring, why the need to cheat? Seems if it were "old hat" stuff, there'd be no need, assuming it was a known comodity in the first instance.Could this be the equivalent of graduating from college because one played a sport but still can't read beyond 3rd grade level?
Secondly, seems we have some character flaws in those who would avail themselves of the available ease with which to cheat. The article almost seems to suggest a flaw in the online courses, or with those who design them, for the problem. Those who cheat, whether to expedite the process or for any other reason, demonstrate their willingness to compromise actual life-threatening effectiveness.
August 12, 2007 at 10:21 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
"Thomas, for instance, has taken only three training courses outside the department in the past seven years, one of which was an online course offered through FEMA."
Doesn't this say alot about the attitude of the chief with regard to education and training. And a $6,000 annual budget? Jeesh! I am thankful that industry I work in demands a certain number of continuing education credits each year in order to keep my license! There is always room to learn more in any business, private or public!
There are more men in the fire department, with as much experience and MORE education than the chief that could probably take his position or at least run it in the interim should he be put on administrative leave. You would think that the investigators would have enough information in this short period of time to at least make that recommendation to the mayor!
August 12, 2007 at 10:41 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jammer (anonymous) says...
I'll never understand why time after time they keep reelecting these idiots... one of the many reasons I moved out of the Charleston district years ago
hopefully they will atleast admit fault and learn so history doesn't repeat itself
as always, my thoughts and prayers for the families of the lost...
August 12, 2007 at 10:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
underdog (anonymous) says...
Good job on this story, P&C. Thanks for the meat.
That the Chief ordered firefighters to not talk to the press... well, that smacks of absolute irreverence. Chief, don't forget who pays a large chunk of your salary and the (meager) salaries of those who work under your command. On an organizational chart, you all ultimately report to the public that you serve.
I hope this issue will receive full attention in the next mayoral contest.
August 12, 2007 at 10:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Perhaps it is time to call for the immediate resignation of the city of charleston fire chief and his superior, the city of charleston mayor, Joesph P. Riley Jr. I would think the lives of nine heroes warrant it.
August 12, 2007 at 11:14 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
Wow. This disgusts me beyond all reasonable imagination. The CFD men are NOT cheaters.
For anyone who has taken courses (especially online courses) can relate to the fact that "cheating" can easily be mistaken to "teaching the test" or having the famous "review day" or even having an "outline" of what's going to be on the test. Many don't understand how these courses are instructed, so this article, especially the headline, is really misleading. I'm sure that at times, the instructors have given then answers out. It's happened to me - I'm sure it's happened to you.
The point is - courses like these, in open forums and online arenas, are made for refreshing the information so that one could apply it in the field. To say that these firefighters are cheating is absurd. They use the information when drilling and when fighting fire which happens to be more pertinent in this line of work.
The CFD has gone since 1965 without losing a life so they obviously know what they are doing. I'm not disputing that things have to change. All things have to change in time.
And JonWithnal
Your comment is out of line. To say "Those 9 guys didn't die because of bravery, they died because the fire department is incompetent. It was avoidable." It very well may have been avoidable but that doesn't mean these 9 guys were not brave. They still had to go to work. They still had to suit up. And they still had to go into the fire. If that isn't brave I don't know what is. I imagine though John Withnal - you're brave typing behind a keyboard.
August 12, 2007 at 11:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
wow in the 15 years of my life i have NEVER been so pissed off and so agervated with everyone. i mean seriously come on yall.. what the heck is this? "Those 9 guys didn't die because of bravery, they died because the fire department is incompetent. It was avoidable." Are you seriously freakin kidingg me?!?!?!?!?!?!? Seriously; i lost a father figure, a coach, a bestfriend, a teacher and ya'll are sitting here disrespecting and talking about how its Cheif Rusty's fault.. COMPLETE BULL CRAP!! It is as much his fault as it is yours and mine. Cheif did all he can do and this is still a hard time for him; he lost 9 of his best friends; and his best men. So freakin lay off. Seriously; we should be pulling together as a comunity to help eachother get through all of this and to help the younger ones like me & the students at Summerville High School that lost there fatherfigure also. Not doing all this crap.
On another subject i personaly don't understand at all why they made this tapes public. I compeltely agree with Coach Mulkey's dad that this is none of the publics buisness.
I lost someone who was very close to me & who ment so much to me.. and i think its pathetic that i am sitting here trying to get over this loss and try to get back into a normal life and ya'll are sitting here blaming the CFD's ways and Cheif's ways. That is not only completely immature but it is rude; disrespectful; and i can't believe people are acting like this.
My bestfriend is a jounior firefighter and has already at the age of 15 deadacated his life to firefighting and spends most of his time up at the FD. This is what he said & i completely agree with him... " Say that store caught on fire and it was as bad as it was and NOBODY dies what would happen? it would b in the paper "charleston firefighters beet deadly blayze". but no when 9 guys die saving a life it blows up and people start poinin fingers and blaming everyone, its bs! so now the whole fire dept and there firefighters get crap from everyone cuz they went in there and did what they are trained to do; save lifes & fight that fire."
August 12, 2007 at 11:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
And in closing with all of this;; who ever said this..
"Chief, don't forget who pays a large chunk of your salary and the (meager) salaries of those who work under your command."
---wow that is rediculous i have so much i would love to say to you because that is compelte crap for you to be blaming cheif.
"I'll never understand why time after time they keep reelecting these idiots..."
---you mean the "idiots" who went in that burning building when everyone else was running out & who saved that man & who did exactly what they were trained to do?
"There are more men in the fire department, with as much experience and MORE education than the chief that could probably take his position or at least run it in the interim should he be put on administrative leave."
---okay so you are saying anyone can take Chief Rusty's spot? BULL CRAP!
"Obviously "The Chief's way" did not work and nine firefighters were lost unnecessarily."
---i would like to have a word with you....
And if you have anything to say to me or anything at all that has to do with this topic; feel free to email me at laurenann2442@yahoo.com ... i would LOVE to talk to you.
August 12, 2007 at 11:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Radiowave (anonymous) says...
I would like to make a recommendation to all those contributing to the ongoing coverage of the Charleston fire tragedy, that we, as a community, begin to reach consensus on specific high priority policy recommendations that are clear and actionable by the mayor and city council. The P&C raises the issue of training and dollars expended for this important aspect of modern fire fighting. Designating an assistant fire chief to that sole responsibility with dedicated staff and the appropriate budget to implement an improved training regiment is certainly something the citizens of Charleston can ask of our elected officials.
Perhaps we need to create a citizens advisory committee to make sure any recommendations are implemented and we have sustained and positive change to increase the safety of our FF and our citizens after the out of town experts go home (as one poster mentioned).
John - I work and live in Charleston and my sub division is served by CFD Engine 7 on James Island.
August 12, 2007 at 11:36 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
JonWithnal-"Those 9 guys didn't die because of bravery, they died because the fire department is incompetent. It was avoidable."
----so you are saying that the guys who go into that burning building when everyone else is running out; the guys who go into danger to save strangers, people they have NEVER seen before; the guys who risk their lives saving others are not heros? wow; words can't explain how pissed i am that you had the nerves to say that. you are saying that the father figure; coach; teacher; and bestfriend i lost was not a hero... come & say that to the kids of Summerville High School and see what happens.. YOU have NO right to say that & you are so disrespectful and i would love to meet you in person with some of the basketball players & football players & cheerleaders; also known as the kids of Captin/Coach Louis Mark Mulkey and we can have a talk about this.
Rest In Peace Fallen Heros ..
God Bless ..
Coach Mulkey we miss you so much!
Our varsity guys beat Dutch Fork the othe night;
we knew you would be so proud of them.
LOVE YOU!
August 12, 2007 at 11:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NN (anonymous) says...
The blood of the Charleston 9 is on the hands of mayor joe 'silk drawers' riley and chief rusted thomas. bye bye you guys...you both are out of here!
August 12, 2007 at 11:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
NN-"The blood of the Charleston 9 is on the hands of mayor joe 'silk drawers' riley and chief rusted thomas. bye bye you guys...you both are out of here!"
----it is on their hands as much as it is on yours jerk!!
God Bless Chief Rusty && Mayor Joe Riley.. you guys are my heros!
August 12, 2007 at 11:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
These nine men did the best job they could, with the limited training they had been given. shsgirl92, are you saying that people living in the city of charleston should close their eyes and wait till more heroes are made before removing the incompetent cancer at the top that is causing this problem.
August 12, 2007 at 11:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
shsgirl92: Please go back and read the various posts after ALL of the articles that have appeared. Almost all of the citizens, ffs (who are under gag orders not to talk), and ffs who know what good training, excellent leadership, and equipment that meets standards, believe is that these nine were heroes. What WE all are concerned about is that, for example, your junior fire fighter friend, and the survivors of the CFD, LIVE a very long, productive life in this chosen profession. If Summerville lost all of its football or basketball games, would you think that was normal? Well, losing nine brave men is NOT normal. Something was wrong. If Captain/Coach Mulkey had been one of the survivors and nine other men had died, he would have thought the same thing.
August 12, 2007 at 11:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
shsgirl92 - I know you're upset and I know it is hard reading stuff like this about the ones we loved and looked up to.
It's easy for these people to sit back now after the fact and put blame and talk bad.
Things will change if need be and people will leave it they must. We'll find reasons after the investigation and stuff will happen.
Just don't let these people get you upset okay?
August 12, 2007 at 11:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ssm (anonymous) says...
$6000.00 yearly training budget for 240 employees equals $25.00 per year per person.
August 12, 2007 at 12:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JuniorFF14 (anonymous) says...
exorcist_pencocky-"These nine men did the best job they could, with the limited training they had been given."
I dont know were you got this from! They have training everyday and I think I would know this because my 2nd dad works for the city of charleston for company 3! Its bs were you people get your info from. You don't have a clue on how the fire dept. works! If this was just another fire it would be in the paper and thats it, but those nine heros died saving someone and now you give my dad and the fire dept. crap for it, your wrong and disrespectful!
NN-"The blood of the Charleston 9 is on the hands of mayor joe 'silk drawers' riley and chief rusted thomas. bye bye you guys...you both are out of here!"
Mayor Joe Riley and Cheif Rusty Thomas will be in the city till they die, there is no scond thought. As long as im here ill vote for them!!!!!
August 12, 2007 at 12:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
intheknow (anonymous) says...
correction ssm, it would be $6000.00 spent on 33 employees per year because those 33 are part of HAZMAT AND USAR teams (which is one in the same) and they are the ONLY ones outside training is offered to.
August 12, 2007 at 12:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Pluffmuddy (anonymous) says...
Shsgirl92,
I'm sorry, but my opinion is that you are completely out of touch with reality! Where have you been??? Have you not kept up with all the facts and observations which have been coming out? Sure, some is speculation and conjecture, but most is coming from those who have a reasonably good view of the BIG picture. As more investigatory results appear, it's sheer denial to ignore what's becoming more and more evident. Blindly following the rhetoric of the Mayor and Chief is just as foolish as believing everything one hears from any other political figure...ya gotta read between the lines and use your own noodle!
August 12, 2007 at 12:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aquaticorange (anonymous) says...
Junior, as far as i know, no one can vote for fire chief.
They do not train properly. If you are training every day but do not have proper classes and certifications, if you are CHEATING on classes, then it does not matter about your training frequency.
You know, my dad works for the CFD too, and if you really did have a clue, you'd know you should be careful about what you're saying because of the gag order. Its one thing if your dad says something on here, but don't risk his job by running your mouth about things YOU obviously don't know about.
August 12, 2007 at 12:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JuniorFF14 (anonymous) says...
Pluffmuddy- "most is coming from those who have a reasonably good view of the BIG picture"
From those who had a good veiw of the over all picture? No body that night had a good overall picture. That fire got really bad really fast... Nobody really had a good graspe on what was happening.
August 12, 2007 at 12:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ssm (anonymous) says...
intheknow-
I'm with you. Anyway you look at it, it's a pitiful budget. And for the record agreed most are, but not all members of Hazmat are on USAR.
August 12, 2007 at 1 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
intheknow (anonymous) says...
Hey Junior, they SHOULD have had an overall grasp of what was going on, that tells you someone or many someones did NOT follow NIMS.
August 12, 2007 at 1 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
JuniorFF14: The statement "no body that night had a good overall picture" is one of the things that is wrong with this fire. Incident Command is one of the areas that has been addressed, not just on this board, but other boards and by expert fire fighters. Some of these fire fighters are from the CFD. They realized after the fact that no one saw the overall picture. If you ARE getting adequate training, you would know the importance of adequate Incident Command. The IC is someone on the OUTSIDE of the building who knows, among other things, (1) how many companies are on the scene (2) where the fire is the hottest and needs the most attention (3) and, especially, how many ffs (PRECISELY WHO THEY ARE) are in the burning structure. Number (3) is accomplished with accountability tags or ID tags that EVERY ff leaves with the IC before going into the burning building. CFD ffs say they do not use them. Now, listen to the tapes. Did anyone know (a) if there were ffs in that building? or (b) who those ff were?
August 12, 2007 at 1:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
underdog (anonymous) says...
shsgirl92 -
I am sorry for your loss. I think most everyone here does not deny the bravery and sacrifice that the deceased (and their families and friends) exemplify.
Some advice though, as you go out into the world. When you are as emotional as you are - and rightly so! - you need to take extra time before reacting to everything. It's clear from your first post that your emotion got in the way of your understanding of the various comments here.
You quoted me first, and you missed my point entirely. My comment was in no way blaming the chief for this. I know nothing of the theory of firefighting, and I wasn't there to observe IF any mistakes were made. What I find deplorable is that the chief issued a gag order barring the FFs from talking to the media. That is absolutely inappropriate. There are no security issues here, and the chief and all of the brave FFS ultimately work for us, the taxpayers.
I wish you well as you work to get through this, and I encourage you to always take a moment and make sure you understand someone before you lash out; else your argument has no merit.
August 12, 2007 at 1:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Pluffmuddy (anonymous) says...
JuniorFF,
I'm referring to the BIG picture of firefighting in general, and firefighting in Charleston in particular...not of the specific SSS incident necessarily. It's painfully obvious that no one was seeing the BIG picture that night. Now we need to step back from that incident and look at the local situation as a whole, using info as it unfolds from this fire, as well as ongoing and historical practices of the CFD.
August 12, 2007 at 1:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
We don't train for two hours. We have a two hour window where we are supposed to train. We tie knots, hook up to hydrants and do hardly anything we would see at an actual fire. Been that way for 25 years.
Look-the men who died WERE BRAVE!!!!!!!! Everyone of them died doing what they were trained to do. Sadly, we don't get quality training.
Just listen to the audio and how much Car 1 panicked. His job is to coordinate a search and we had no idea how to do it. None. Compare it with the audio on the web of how chiefs run incidents. Huge difference.
There's training for documentation, which we do, and training for fighting fires. We need this last one.
Write the maypr and tell him to help us NOW. rileyj@ci.charleston.sc.us
Oh-more will come out and will anger you.
August 12, 2007 at 1:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NIMS800Chief (anonymous) says...
Training all ranks is a crucuial element of maintaining cutting edge professional development of staff. It is costly and usually represents 7-20% of the operating budget depending on the level of department resources. It's usually first to go in the meat axe of budget cuts. relying solely on-line is a mistake and made by many departments.
Chief Thomas says he does not know if his ICS mirrors national standards? NO is the resounding answer after hearing the tapes. Then he condradicts his statment mirroring NIMS. He stated that CFDs ICS is rich in tradition meaning it is time honored and not improved on. If that was the case, Garvin would set up his command post, identify Operations Commander, safety officers, and then as Incident Commander Garvin would have formulated his accountibility system, and action plan with arriving chief officers. I never heard the term Command, Operations, Division, or Safety. Thus not applying the NIMS model to anything. The NIMS 100, 200, 700 & 800 courses alluded to are in most part on-line. If they cheat, then they cheated themselves. However the most crucial NIMS 300-400 courses required for all company, chief, and fire chief positions are tabletop exercise training that lasts 3 days. A chief officer cannot cheat their way out of that unless CFD fudged the training sheets.
Sound off CFD, this is your department. I commend you all on a most valiant rescue of a store employee and mourn your loss of 9 brothers.
August 12, 2007 at 1:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
burton (anonymous) says...
If this is not the Peter Principle, I don't know what is. I've said it since the beginning: Chief Thomas will eventually resign over this once all the safety investigation reports come back. I'm standing by that.
No matter how much you may like someone or how good their heart is, there is something called accountability. Nine brave men lost their lives in a fire--let's not forget that. Nine men at one time! I'm glad that the P&C is doing this investigative reporting or how else would the public get this info?
To those supporting the Chief, I understand your loyalty but please try to be objective about this if you can. Based on the evidence I have read over the past months, it may be time for the Chief to resign his position. He does not want to become a "lame duck" Chief that has no respect from the men and women in his dept. Chief, do the right thing for the good of your dept and step down sir before this gets any worse for you. Save face now! Oh, and let's not talk about all the lawsuits that will come out of this. That is another matter in itself!
August 12, 2007 at 1:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
JuniorFF & SHSgirl: There are a hundred little issues we could talk about, but let's look at the big picture here for a fire this big. A fire scene command is like a pyramid. The chirf is at the top. He should only need to talk to a few chiefs below him, those cheifs will have others below them. This works all the way down to the firefighters, the ones who are doing the work. The bigger the fire, the bigger pyramid you need. A fire this big, the chief cannot or should not try to run everything himself. He will lose control, it's just too big. If you listen to the tapes you will hear Chief Thomas talking to individual engines talking about water supply. Which is talking his attention away from other areas.
Liken this fire to a football game. The head coach has asst coaches to help him run the team during a game(offense, defense, kicking). He does not have time to talk to each player during the game. If he did he would be sending a lot of players out on the field with no idea what they are supposed to do. He needs to concentrate on the big picture, tell the assts what he wants and let them tell the players what their idividual jobs are.
Accountability is also a big issue here. The chief had no idea who was where doing what. When the men went missing, how long did it take him to find out who it was?
There are many more issues here than I can discuss in one post. If you have any questions feel free to email me at fyrmnjim@yahoo.com. I've been doing this job a very long time and I would be happy to talk to you both.
August 12, 2007 at 1:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
livemusic (anonymous) says...
I can already hear the footsteps of an outgoing City of Charleston fire chief. It's definitely not his fault these heroic men died, but I think he should be held accountable for the department's training and preparedness.
August 12, 2007 at 2:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
intheknow (anonymous) says...
Hey, I have a question! Why is it that all the chiefs get $2000 gear and lightweight Scott air packs, while the firefighters (the guys that actually go into the fire) get the lesser quality $600 gear? It doesn't seem right to me.
August 12, 2007 at 2:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mbsmoky (anonymous) says...
You don't have to wait for any reports to know these 9 died for a building!!!! Why? Here's a few.
1) Lack of any effective command / accountability structure. "Good Ole Boy" system does not count and has no place in the modern fire service!
2) Improper selection and placement of handlines.
3) No communications
4) Improper or non use of equipment ( ie.. thermal imaging camera's ) available on scene.
Chief Thomas needs to step up and except accountabilty for the loss of those men. His actions or lack of are crminal!
August 12, 2007 at 2:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
fyrmnjim: What a great analogy for JuniorFF & SHSgirl. Thanks!
August 12, 2007 at 2:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jammer (anonymous) says...
shsgirl92
I understand your loss, I knew some of those people too... I lived right behind that store off of stinson dr for years
but you are completely missing the points made here due to your emotion, and not reading the text correctly
""I'll never understand why time after time they keep reelecting these idiots..."
---you mean the "idiots" who went in that burning building when everyone else was running out & who saved that man & who did exactly what they were trained to do?"
we don't elect firemen, they are hired so of course I'm not referring to them and I have nothing but the utmost respect for them and their families and am extremely sorry for their loss'
I was referring to the likes of Mayor Riley who has done nothing but damage our culture and moved out many of the locals by imminent domain and taxation
I remember when the "city" ended at the ashley river bridge, he's taken up land all the way out to what used to be the "country" and skyrocketed prices out of the reach of most locals
not to mention the many other idiocies he has done over the years, the same people he harms keep putting him back in charge because they are scared to elect someone new for fear of the unknown because they are told someone else will do worse... you know, vote for the least of two evils scheme that seems to work so well
I'm absolutely sure no one here means any blame sarcasm or harm to any of those firefighters that lost their lives or their families, which has been proven over and over by the overwhelming public support that never fades
it's the people in charge they blame that goofed this up, and it will be shown how in the months to come
as is in most of the local government departments people got where they are by who they knew or who they did favors for, we have many incompetent people in authority positions in the lowcountry... and they are slowly getting weeded out as this area comes up to speed beyond the capabilities of those pretending to run things
you can only hide your ignorance so long before it catches up in todays world, technology is a wonderful thing that most of those old "bubba's" don't understand and hopefully it'll put many of them out in the pasture where they belong
as things computerize and the "bubba's" don't understand it they will have to move aside because their bosses will start to look like idiots if they don't... and as soon as you make your boss look like an idiot you're on your way out the door
all in time all will be revealed
August 12, 2007 at 2:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
unknown_username (anonymous) says...
shsgirl92 - congrats! You've made it 15 whole years without any memorable incident to conjure such passionate outbursts. If only every 15 year old were as lucky as you are. While everyone else is patting you on the head and saying, "you poor little girl, let it all out," I refuse to bequeath such a luxury. You wanna play with the big boys - here we go.
Your beloved Rusty and Joe are master politicians who are adept at milking the Charleston public, as I've been privy to their shenanigans for nearly a quarter century. I'm glad to see someone your age actually reading the paper, but what you should not be doing is opening wide and swallowing all that Rusty and Joe are feeding. These are adult men who have made strategic decisions to get AND stay where they are. When Rusty gagged his men, he insulted those who work for him and the community that supports them. It reeks of a cover-up. His men know something that is obviously a threat to his office so the P&C are doing their best to uphold journalistic integrity by investigating every angle of the story. If it topples their reigns, so be it.
My only grievance with the other commentators is while everyone is blaming those two (and rightfully so), they should also take care to blame the people who have kept Joe in office, thus rewarding his good ol' boy ways for over three decades.
I love to break your little heart when I say, the fingers keep pointing back to Joe and to Rusty, whose yahoo ways have been rewarded by the mayor. Joe's done wonders for tourism and historical preservation, but Charleston is still lacking in so many other areas thanks to his leadership, or should I say, lack thereof. Do you ever wonder why the mayor has been so quiet and will continue to do so until election time? Do you ever wonder why Rusty's keeping his men quiet and spouting empty prose to the press? Your beloved heroes are politically motivated, dear little girl, with only their job security in mind.
I know you're 15. You're at the age when ponies and boys trump all else and you so desperately want to see the good in the world. Well, guess what the world is NOT good and the world's leaders are unfortunately not always pure of heart. That's not pessimistic that's reality.
Instead of channeling your frustration towards the adults on the post, do something productive. Demand answers and demand action to punish those who are at fault (your "heroes").
I understand your loss and grief. Louis was a dear friend and I think about him EVERY day. I was horrified to learn he was in that building and the image of his body being carried out is forever seared in my mind. I am infuriated that his death was preventable, but instead of having a temper tantrum, I'm writing local officials to demand answers, encouraging investigative work by outside sources, and continuing to support my FD friends. SO! Shut up, put your big girl panties on and honor the nine by doing the same.
August 12, 2007 at 2:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
For JuniorFF and SHSgirl: The following was posted on another board on the Post and Courier sites. It was written by a ff who worked along side your father figure, Louis Mulkey, SHSgirl and your 2nd dad, Junior ff. He is now under a gag order and cannot say these words. While he could, listen to what he said: The fire that night was brutal. We arrived and everything was a mess. Supply lines, firefighters running around, Rusty screaming. We had zero accountability. No one knew how many guys were missing for a while. There were no checks like other departments. What are they called Par checks or something like that. This wasn't my first big fire but it was the uncontrolled fire I've been at. Only two chiefs seemed to know what was going on and both of them seemed to get their orders reversed too often. They were leading. My chief, a man I've loved for a long time, lost it. he does it at fires because he is so excitable. I don't know about incident command. We just pull up and go in and pump the truck. Ventilation is foreign to me and I've never cared because this was the way we do it. Now, seeing how we looked and knowing we didn't take basic precautions, I'm sick over it. The only thing that went well that night was leaving. Departments in Charleston mt pleasant, st johns, st Andrews, iopalms. All have chiefs with education. They may not be pretty but they are doing something right. For all of you who are defending rusty remember you are dishonoring Earl, Mike, and each of the 9. Inside your mind you know how the scene was. And its like that at every fire.
August 12, 2007 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
carolinabeachgirl (anonymous) says...
I think that, for the most part, everyone can agree that there are some crucial errors at the site of the fire. Communication one of the biggest. But what about looking at the bigger picture? The city should be more proactive in inspecting a business. Anyone that ever entered the sofa super store knows what an incredible mine field that place was and the difficulty in navigating just to shop. Why did Goldstein allow a FURNITURE STORE to be that cluttered? WHY DOESN'T A FURNITURE STORE HAVE SPRINKLER'S? Not like he couldn't afford it. Seems to me the owner's are getting off easy in the media as opposed the Mayor and Chief Thomas. Oh, and nice of the P&C not to post the sofa super store ad next to this story today.
August 12, 2007 at 3:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JuniorFF14 (anonymous) says...
I understand were you all are comin from, and lookin back i see that i was wrong and i didnt look at the bigger picture. I would like to thank all of you for making me relieze what i was sayin. thank you
August 12, 2007 at 3:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
miki (anonymous) says...
shsgirl92: I've re-written this twice now because each time it sounds patronizing. So, I'm going to not think about your age and just say: Everyone is emotional about this issue. Emotion blinds people to seeing 100% of all sides. You're experience is no more or less valid than everyone else's. But you have to allow people to say what they feel so other's can learn from it. Unfortunately, very soon a lot more negative things will come out and some of it's going to hurt. The goal isn't to diminish the contributions made by Chief or any of our fire fighters. The goal is to make improvements to the system so others don't have to suffer the losses you have suffered. Please, don't take comments personally.
And, please, don't give your email address and personal information out. Even at MY age, that's not smart. Be careful!
August 12, 2007 at 3:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
JuniorFF14: Thanks for your comments. The main thing is, until after all these investigations are over and changes are made, that you need to get your training at a qualified fire station. You have picked an honorable profession. All of us on this site and other sites want you to live to a ripe old age, putting out fires, helping people in accidents, teaching children about fire safety, and rescuing people from burning buildings. Please stay safe out there and learn the correct way of fire fighting.
August 12, 2007 at 3:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JuniorFF14 (anonymous) says...
vesta, what do u consider the correct way of firefighting?? As of now my plan of life was to work for the city fire department!! do u consider how they fight fire the correct way?
August 12, 2007 at 4:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
JuniorFF14: At this point, the answer is no to your last question. Hopefully, by the time you are ready to become a firefighter, things may have changed in the city. What I am cautioning you about is that you do not want to be learning from a department that might be found negligent in how they handled this fire. One of the most important things is to get as much training as you can from qualified personnel who teach using NIMS (National Institute Management System) standards. Most South Carolina fire departments spend much more than $25.00 per person per year in training. Listen, learn and ask questions when you do not understand....your life depends on it. Fire fighting techniques change over the years....keep up with these changes....your life depends on it. When you finally do become a ff, make sure your department issues you the best equipment they can afford and PLEASE use it....your life depends on it.
August 12, 2007 at 4:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
all i have to say to everyone of you is that no matter what i will stand up for what i believe in; i don't care what you do or say; i will stand up for what i believe in and i will fight for it also.
August 12, 2007 at 4:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
basically to me some of ya'll are saying its the 9 men's fault that they died..
thats like telling me my dad comminted suicide when i know he went in that fire to save someone..
August 12, 2007 at 4:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldfric07 (anonymous) says...
Look at these excerpts from the above article:
"Thomas has said that he doesn't know if his department procedures mirror those prescribed in the National Incident Management System."
Later in the article:
"In its written responses to questions, the city said "The Charleston Fire Department exercises incident command and trains all members in the NIMS system."
Write the mayor and ask him which lie is it?
August 12, 2007 at 4:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bootlicked (anonymous) says...
Junior you don't have a clue. How many times have you seen an airpack tied to a rope and sent to a fire. This is the training the men receive.I have been a city fireman and seen it so has my dad.Dad retired and always said Rusty will get someone killed ,I said the same thing and now it is true.
August 12, 2007 at 4:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JuniorFF14 (anonymous) says...
yes i understand! but ive put a lot of thought in it and the city is were i wanna b. weather or not this is still with them. i kinda wanna follow in my 2nd dads footsteps!
August 12, 2007 at 4:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
people need to grow up; be mature; let the nine fallen hero's rest in peace; let ATF take care of the investigation; && just help the familes and friends of the fallen hero's .... seriously; put it this way; if your husband or wife was killed like these nine were woud you still be acting the way you are now & would you still be talking about all this like you are now??
August 12, 2007 at 4:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
easy (anonymous) says...
Any department, whether it is Fire,Police, EMS is forced to adopt the attitude, and demeanor of the CHIEF. Or your time spent there is made to be a living HELL. You can choose to either put up with it, or get out. You see that is the exact way they think about you. If you are not one of the BOYS,you will be made to suffer, in one way of another. That is the story in so many cities and counties. And it seems to be the way things are until something like this happens until others start to pay attention and take notice. This is so true for the Chas FD. It is not only the FIRE CHIEF, but THE MAYOR who are to blame for all of this ugly mess. Left unchecked for so very long. When will everyone wake up and see this for what it is. THEY NEED TO GO. Need to be Replaced... NOW................... Before something else occurs.....
August 12, 2007 at 4:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JonWithnal (anonymous) says...
shsgirl92: nobody cares you think. You are a deeply ignorant semi-literate rube with a big dumb chip on your shoulder. Go away.
August 12, 2007 at 4:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Yolie (anonymous) says...
This tradgedy is unfortunate for everyone involved. It is so easy to sit back and point the finger at one another. The fact is we cannot bring thses heroes back.
If we all sit back and think about this whole situation we may not be so judgemental. We as a nation have suffered so many horrifc tradgedies. After every single one of them we sit back and point the finger at who is the blame. This is a natural reaction. However, those of you that have never worked as part of the police,fire, emergency,military or any organization that saves lives or put their lives on the line truly don't understand.
Any person that is in a leadership position carries the weight of the world on their shoulders. One of the most important characteristics of a leader is to be able to make a decision in a split second. Guess what people? The decision may not always be the correct one, but it has to be done. We can all sit back and speculate on what we would have done, but NOONE truly knows what they would do in that type of situation. These men worked for the fire department so I'm sure they all knew that they could lose their lives doing the job that they loved. If my house was on fire, I wouldn't be standing outside checking the credentials of emergency personnel......I served 11 yrs in the military and I know what it means to make a decision and stick by the choice I made. You all must remember that these heroes have had to make quick decisions themselves a at some point during a fire and it worked out. But I'll bet if any of them were here now they would probably tell you that they would have made the same choices the Chief had to make during the fatal fire.
August 12, 2007 at 5 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
shsgirl,
NO ONE is saying these men committed suicide. They did die though because of a flawed system that should have been improved in the past and NEEDS to be improved now so that this never happens to anyone else.
The ATF is not the agency investigating the fire. They came in and assisted in determining the cause, that's it. Agencies that specialize in fires and firefighter deaths are the ones doing this part of the investigation.
If one of my family members was one of those men. I would be livid knowing that this tragedy did not have to happen.
Please do some research.
August 12, 2007 at 5:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
unknown_username (anonymous) says...
Oh, shsgirl92. When you read the posts, it's obvious you have a knee-jerk reaction and proceed to lash the rest of us with your odious and poorly thought-out retorts without truly considering the meaning behind that to which you respond.
There isn't a single person on this post who is trying to tell you those men played an active role in their own deaths and no one has yet to imply that you are not entitled to feel loss and grief. We are singularly denouncing the events that led to their deaths and we are uniformly demanding that someone be held accountable, as we have all experienced loss of some sort. You, on the other hand, seem to be screaming for attention and demanding validation of superfluous claims. No one has personally attacked you, so please do not respond as though slighted.
Your tirades, misuses of semi-colon's, and Pomeranian-esque yapping, while fodder for the conversation and a source of entertainment, do not lend themselves to anything productive. My goal is not to cause offense; I'm merely attempting to explain that your desired outcome will never materialize if you continue in this manner, as there are far more productive forms of debate to be utilized.
I do hope that when you are in school this year, you put copious amounts of time into practicing critical thinking and deductive reasoning. Mastering them will behoove of you in the future, as you will find older adults rarely respond favorably to such impassioned and ill-supported arguments on a young adult's part.
I'm glad you read the paper and I'm glad you've come to share, but if you are going to continue in this discussion, I beg of you; take a deep breath and really think about what you want to convey before you unleash on your keyboard. Clear, concise communication requires clear, concise thought and preparation.
August 12, 2007 at 6:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
whycantitbebetterhere (anonymous) says...
To all of the people out there that think "the government" spends too much money - that is the bs kind of thinking that led to a training budget of $6,000/y/240 employees. Talk to City Council - I am sure that someone on there who was againt "WASTE" caused that to happen!
August 12, 2007 at 6:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
whycantitbebetterhere (anonymous) says...
For unknown_username - you have got to be kidding me. You are a pompous, simple-minded, eliteist, airbag. Leave the poor speller and punctuator alone. I am sure that they will figure it out eventually, at least they do not try to lay someone low by insulting their reading and writing skills. You are reprehensible. (Did I spell that right?)
August 12, 2007 at 6:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
realistic (anonymous) says...
It is easy to throw stones but watch your own windows. I have been in the fire service for 20 yrs and have taken those online courses which personally are a joke but a good way to have some training on a slow day. After all I know how to rescue farm animals now thanks to them. But the main thing is this I have taken classes at the fire academy since 1989 and have never taken a class with a city of chas ff. I can say this that it has been well known that it is deeply tragic what took place but it didn't surprise anyone in the fire service but the loss amount was unbelieveable. Hopefully more training will come into play and for christ sakes better radio communications. Time will tell just don't let these lives be lost in vain.
August 12, 2007 at 7:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
lhoward (anonymous) says...
I grew up around the fire department, climbing on the trucks when I was young. I got to ride in the truck in the parades and I thought all of those guys were amazing. My dad was a chief before Chief Rusty and he also worked under him. We both respect him tremendously. It's interesting how soon we forget that under Chief Rusty the CFD received an ISO Class 1 rating. Out of the 46,703 fire departments in the country, only fifty-five have a Class 1 rating.("ISO is a leading source of information about risk. We supply data, analytics, and decision-support services for professionals in many fields, including insurance, finance, real estate, health services, government, and human resources. Our products and services help customers measure, manage, and reduce risk.") That means that a completely unbiased third party of experts has said Chief Rusty's fire department ranks as high as it possibly could, an honor that only .117% of our nation's fire departments can also claim. No one said we needed to change or "get with the times" when we achieved that rating. So many of the harsh words for the chief are coming from people who rely solely on what was written in the paper and even on the validity of the comments of complete strangers, insisting that his job is one acquired with nepotism and that he is not truly qualified. No one says that when the son of a doctor or lawyer follows in his father's footsteps. Chief Rusty is as devoted as any chief can be--he keeps his radio with him 24/7, he answers calls when he doesn't have to. What else do you want from him? The response of Charleston, supposedly one of the most hospitable cities in the nation, is embarrassing. Remember everything Chief Rusty has done for Charleston. No one can know how they would respond in that situation unless they had experienced it. You don't have the time that hindsight provides to examine the situation and choose the best course of action. In a fire, they do what they think is best based on what they know right then. These mens' deaths were tragic, but I honestly believe everything was done as well as it could have been. When the World Trade Center collapsed, no one said those heroes were foolish for going into a building that might collapse. Why would we respond so harshly to our firefighters who did the same thing? I have the utmost faith in our fire department and I will continue to support them throughout this whole ordeal. Below is the ISO website, for anyone who would like to see for themself what the rating means.
http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/0000...
August 12, 2007 at 7:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
COMBAT_CHALLENGE (anonymous) says...
I have been a citizen of Charleston for over ten years now, but where I came from, we firefighters were actively trained and many of us (including myself) received degrees in applied fire science (not online....) in a 50/50 combination of classroom and actual practical field instruction in tactics and strategies. I am certainly not trying to take anything away from the dedication and hours of work that Chief Rusty and his men put into their jobs each and every day, but I believe also, that it is time that there is an equivalent training program for anyone who is going to be a position where all hell could break loose at any given time. No one can truly know how tough it is to make decisions that could ultimately save someone's life, including your own, except those of us who have done it. I would like to see all the Charleston FF's be trained according to the what the job warrants. I was trained by others who had been trained before me and so there are those of us out there willing to teach from real experience and proven college and departmental instruction (NOT the "fire science management" degree now offered at a local institution, but a fire science degree that encompasses field work and class room instruction in ICS, fire protection and sprinklers, building construction and fire codes, hazmat, EMS, fire department officership, chemistry of fire suppression, hydraulics, and pre-plans, etc., etc.) I felt that this training served us well...it was the best out there, the best there was.
I believe in Chief Rusty and Mayor Riley and know that they will always strive to do the right thing.
God Bless our city, our public servants, and those who have gone before us.
August 12, 2007 at 7:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Looks as if the city of charleston has a very serious leadership problem for condoning this action. There are none more blind than those who 'will' not see. Open your eyes and see whats happing to your city, charleston.
August 12, 2007 at 7:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Does no one read anymore.?? 99 percent of us have not responded harshly to the CFD Fire Fighters. We have, however, responded harshly to the lack of Incident Command, the lack of training, and the lack of proper equipment. We are on these sites because THESE VERY FIRE FIGHTERS must have known they were going to be asked to be quiet about the SSS fire. They asked us to write the mayor, city council, other citizens. Prior to their gag order, we listened to what they had to say (read one of the posts above)--they are frightened they will be the next fatality in the near future due to lack of Incident Command, lack of training, lack of proper equipment and very poor leadership. Touch decisions, fellows, are made quickly and efficiently on the fire ground by those at the top who are well educated and trained in the fire service, not those who don't keep up with the changes in the fire service but continue to do things "since time wuz time."
August 12, 2007 at 7:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
Thank you lhoward - I appreciate your comments. Many people forget the CFD is a Class I rating. It's so easy to be a Monday Morning QB.
August 12, 2007 at 8:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
Combat_Challenge:
I was around the CFD before Rusty could drive. I'm one of the few with a degree in Fire Science. You and Howard don't have a clue.
You like the chief. Fine. The men who work for him, with the exception of a small number loyal to him, don't. The ISO class 1 mess will also be straightened out soon.
For those who think the department will retain the 1 rating-think again. You are the same people who believed nothing was wrong and then feel back to this position.
The FIREFIGHTERS are supported-we receive support from people here. The Chief is another story.
You can support him though. He'll need it for retirement.
August 12, 2007 at 8:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
clevagirl (anonymous) says...
Maybe it's not too late for Chief Rusty to give up his "old school" ways and admit that it's time to embrace state-of-the-art training and compliance with safety guidelines. I don't doubt his love and dedication to his men, but he hasn't done them any favors by turning his head to compliance violations. Also, I admittedly don't know much about firefighting, but there's got to be a better way to manage a fire than what I heard on the tapes. Total confusion and chaos! Chief Rusty needs training more than his men do.
August 12, 2007 at 8:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
oops--I meant tough decisions.
August 12, 2007 at 8:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
Combat: Your whole post is a contratiction.
You claim to support Rusty and believe in him. Yet, the CFD is the atheism of everything you claim that you are.
August 12, 2007 at 8:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
COMBAT_CHALLENGE (anonymous) says...
Dear oldcap:
I am glad that you are one of the few. I should hope that you, along with with myself, and I know many others, support this type of training along with quality inservice for all our city FFs. No offense taken...but slurs like "clueless" should be reserved for teen time text messages, not between folks who ARE on the same side.
August 12, 2007 at 8:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
clevagirl
You know what's bad? For someone who has never listened to a fire over the scanner it would sound like chaos to the blind ear. However, you admit you don't know much about firefighting so how can you truly judge the tapes?
That's the problem with all this. We have people who don't know - and people who claim they know - who are all of a sudden "experts".
The ONLY people who have a relevant complaint are the men of this department.
Everyone else - including FF'ers from other states - should just sit back and let the investigation run its course.
August 12, 2007 at 8:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
hebthree: I listen to fire scenes on a daily basis and, in fact, have been on the scene of a very big fire (bigger than the SSS and no ffs were lost), and what I heard on the tapes was chaos. The men of the department are not allowed to speak, remember, so their relevant complaints were aired much earlier before the gag order came into play. I wonder whether the panel has talked to any of the ffs yet. If so, did they have to have their BC with them or their training officer? In otherwords, were they once again not free to speak their minds?
August 12, 2007 at 8:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
oldfric: Is there anyway to get a copy of the CFD yearly budget for the past two years?
August 12, 2007 at 8:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
Having been a police commander in a major metropolitan city for more than 20 years, I was always suspicious of the procedures used by CFD in this fire.
In no way am I questioning the bravery of those nine firefighters. Instead I am speaking on their behalf. They are indeed heroes but it is my humble opinion, after looking and listening to the tapes of that night that those poor guys died needlessly. The commander obviously lost control and allowed the situation to devolve into chaos.
I also believe that if the ATF does its job properly, the findings will support the termination of the chief.
God bless the Charleston 9 and their families.
August 12, 2007 at 8:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Fire Chief Thomas, when the noose tightens around his political neck, and the city of charleston mayor throws you into the fire to save himself, I wonder if your men will stand behind you.
August 12, 2007 at 8:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
Vesta - do you listen to the CFD scenes daily?
August 12, 2007 at 8:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
clevagirl (anonymous) says...
hebthree, are you saying that it wasn't chaos? Are you satisfied that the situation was handled exactly as it should have been? As you say, I'm not used to listening to scanner tapes, but it actually isn't that difficult to follow what's going on in these. Have you listened to them? Look, I understand that you're a Chas firefighter and you feel a need to close ranks and keep this whole thing "in the family". That's a perfectly natural reaction. But if changes can prevent future tragedies from happening, how can that be a bad thing? Sometimes the hardest thing to do is to admit that maybe the way things have been done isn't necessarily the best way.
I have a feeling that the experts who are investigating will recommend some changes. I sure hope that the recommendations are received with open minds by the department.
August 12, 2007 at 8:57 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
Well Chief, maybe now is the best time to leave. While you can keep a little dignity and self respect about yourself. He's really not worth falling on your sword for, is he.
August 12, 2007 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
Vesta,
I'm not saying it wasn't chaos nor am I saying it was handled properly. However, it will/would sound like chaos to someone that doesn't listen on a daily basis or who isn't trained. It very well might sound like chaos to other firefighters who aren't used to how the CFD operates.
Also - I'm not disputing that things need to change. I never said they didn't. I also didn't say the offices investigating this weren't experts.
What I am saying is that the ones who come on here that claim to be firefighters in other cities/states should really back off.
If you are a firefighter then you should know to back off and keep it in the family.
The investigation will lead to whatever the outcome needs to be but right now all this talk by outsiders who claim they are in the know are doing nothing but making the fire department look bad.
August 12, 2007 at 9:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
Exorcist - who are you talking to?
If it's to me - I am not a Chief.
August 12, 2007 at 9:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Here's a question for the people in the fire service:
I know that the ISO rating or protection class rating (as it is called in the insurance business) has an effect or property insurance premiums. What else is the rating used for?
August 12, 2007 at 9:09 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
Sorry my above reply was for clevagirl and not Vesta.
August 12, 2007 at 9:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
hebthree: I listen to radio traffic every 3rd day here in Dayton. I can tell you that I have never heard such a chaotic scene in my entire career. Our DC's are calm, level headed and methodical. They usually command from inside their Tahoe, facing the scene with the windows closed(no distractions or noise). When the situation changes, they stop, step back, think for a moment, then shift tactics. If Rusty woud have done this, he might have been able to see what was happening, change tactics and had a totally different outcome. In which, none of us would be here now.
Stay safe.
August 12, 2007 at 9:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
What's chaotic to you might not be chaotic to the men of the CFD.
If compared to your scene then yes one might here chaos.
BUT - this is what these men are used to. This is what they here every day. This is why it is best for everyone outside of this to just stay out.
Does this warrant a change? Possibly. Will there be a change? Maybe.
Are you here investigating the fire? No.
Are you a Charleston Fire Fighter? No.
You see where I'm going with this?
August 12, 2007 at 9:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
hebthree: These are the words of a CFD ff who was at and participated in the SSS fire: "The fire that night was brutal. We arrived and everything was a mess. Supply lines, firefighters running around, Rusty screaming. We had zero accountability. No one knew how many guys were missing for a while. There were no checks like other departments. What are they called Par checks or something like that. This wasn't my first big fire but it was the uncontrolled fire I've been at. Only two chiefs seemed to know what was going on and both of them seemed to get their orders reversed too often. They were leading. My chief, a man I've loved for a long time, lost it. he does it at fires because he is so excitable. I don't know about incident command. We just pull up and go in and pump the truck. Ventilation is foreign to me and I've never cared because this was the way we do it. Now, seeing how we looked and knowing we didn't take basic precautions, I'm sick over it. The only thing that went well that night was leaving. Departments in Charleston mt pleasant, st johns, st Andrews, iopalms. All have chiefs with education. They may not be pretty but they are doing something right. For all of you who are defending rusty remember you are dishonoring Earl, Mike, and each of the 9. Inside your mind you know how the scene was. And its like that at every fire." Now, my question to you is: Are you alive? Yes. Are nine other firefighters alive? No. You see where I am going with this?
August 12, 2007 at 9:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Wow, I leave the posts for a day and it explodes..
SHS children: My daughters and son are also SHS kids...they knew Coach, just as you...I knew of him through my work volunteering with football...my son played for him, my daughter had him in class...Louis is one my main motivations for doing this...actually, it is his wife and parents. I met them at the funeral home. I hugged them, spoke to them, gave them my condolences as many more did. They were gracious, wonderful people, concerned for others...I have a feeling that is where Louis got his drive for fire service..to help and comfort people..that was his job..BUT, that job while it has risks does not have to be a fatal one. They wear boots, helmets, gloves, airpacks, etc...for what? To protect them the BEST way possible. In addition, they are to be trained. By superior officers with knowledge and experience to follow. Rusty has NEVER had that knowledge. I have been given information from insiders, people who KNOW him better than the rest of us. Here is what they say:That the Chief was given his position of Battalion Chief over other men in line way before him. More training, more experience. He was then given the Chiefs position, again, over the training and experience of other men with way more time. What does this mean? It appears that Rusty was advanced to his current position because of WHO he knows, not WHAT he knows. it is called nepotism. Many of these men very easily could have been more qualified and trained than the Chief, but HE still made the calls. His inexperience put many people in danger for a very long time, and his failure to bring about change to modernize the department contributed to the situation that led to their deaths. He did NOT kill them, his lack of knowledge(training and compliance with NIMS LAWS) did. He is NOT evil. He did NOT a bad man. BUT he DID make mistakes he never should have.
(CONT)
August 12, 2007 at 9:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
hebthree, you sound like a great guy, very knowledgeable but maybe just a little defensive. Just because we are not members of the CFD doesn't mean that we can't have an opinion on this tragedy. In fact, some of us care very deeply that these great men lost their lives, in what I personally believe was an unnecessary event which may have been caused by incompetant command.
I am more than willing to wait for the investigaton to be completed as long as the truth is allowed to come out. When that happens, everyone will benefit especially the members of the CFD.
God bless all firefighters, paramedics, and police officers serving in this great country.
I speak as a retired police officer/commander for the Washington DC police department and the father of a Florida firefighter.
August 12, 2007 at 9:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
CFD Firefighters may train every day, but if the training offered is outdated or outmoded, if the trainers are not keeping abreast of the newest methods- if they allow pencil whipping on tests and do not test skills then there is no benefit to this training.
AND
Knowing that their training is extremely lacking, where do they go from here? Can any official, in good conscience allow the City of Charleston Fire Department to continue to "protect" lives and property? Do they continue to keep their class 1 rating? It is my understanding that the Class 1 rating is based solely on the peninsular city and the outlying annexed areas are not included in the Class 1 rating. Do the citizens of the annexed areas such as James Island, Johns Island and Daniel Island feel they made a mistake after allowing themselves to be annexed into the city because of "services?" How safe do the city dwellers feel? Just asking.
August 12, 2007 at 9:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MJLowery (anonymous) says...
shsgirl: if you'd kept up with the facts or listened to the nearly seven hours of tape, you might be singing a different tune.
NO ONE is saying those 9 men went into the blaze pointlessly. communication was extremely poor and instructions were chaotic and lax, on the parts of some responders. if you know ANYTHING about the procedures or training behind rescue responding, you'd understand that losing 9 in a fire is unheard of and unacceptable.
we WILL discuss this and find answers because WE - unlike you at this point - never, EVER want to bury that many firefighters again.
i knew louis personally myself ... and if you knew him well, you know that he NEVER settled for less than one's BEST. if he had lived and learned that 8 of his ff brothers were lost in a fire, you can be SURE that he'd be fighting tooth and nail to make sure such a loss never happened again.
honor your coach by living up to what he stood for.
August 12, 2007 at 9:50 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
The scene was complete chaos just like it is whenever Car 1 arrives.
Look-everyone can argue but Rusty will leave and likely take some of his chiefs with him. They will cite health reasons but the truth is they will go because when records are completely turned over the outcry will be three times what this is and it will come from supporters of Mayor Riley.
In a month when more issues come to light who will stand up and defend? Who's going to defend an in-depth look at the budget? When promotions are examined and the chief officers are given questions that only three or four can answer, what will the rest do?
August 12, 2007 at 9:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
good point, MJLowery
August 12, 2007 at 9:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
hebthree, you talk as if this is a small problem, emanating from and radiating around the city of charleston fire department, that no one else can think or worry about. Remember, when the city of charleston fire department goes out on a call, what they do and how they do it affects every single citizen and we visitors to the city of charleston. Don't these people have the right to feel safe in their own city. For a very long time they have heard the propaganda 'The Largest and Best trained' in the region. Now, they simply know the truth, they were lied to. The persons responsible for this are at the top, not the ordinary fireman doing the best he can with what he has. My heart goes out to them, and may God protect them always.
August 12, 2007 at 10:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
If you want to honor Coach and his fallen brothers, then RESEARCH...don't believe what you hear here in this site..DIG.dig for yourselves...ask the men and women inside who are unable to come forward with their real names in fear because the administration doesn't want what they have to say to come out.
Click on their names...ALL CFD men posting here...get BOTH sides, then YOU make the decision...
Junior FF: look at the picture in the early stage of the fire...do you see the big crack in the front right facade(top fake wall) near the words, SOFA SUPER STORE?
SEE the smoke? What causes that? Well, most people believe, as do I, that this is the result of heat on the truss system. You are a junior ff, you can grasp this lesson son...what happens to steel trusses when they get heated to temps of between 900-1100 degrees? They weaken and 'stretch'...causing this "crack" in the seam that runs along the entire right side of the main building...the roof was compromised BEFORE these men went in. The responsible person, failed to catch that. Further meaning, there is a VERY good probability that this fire was BEHIND them from the get go...and the golden rule of firefighting is? NEVER LET THE FIRE GET BEHIND YOU. Add it up son...please...
Heroes do NOT have to die. I am willing to answer questions if you need them...PM me, we can talk.
August 12, 2007 at 10:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
nickie: check your PM
August 12, 2007 at 10:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
Vesta,
I definitely can't argue with the words from the mouth of a Charleston FF. They know what needs to be changed and they know the scene of the SSS Fire. But that is my whole point. They are the only ones that can call it chaos/mess or whatever.
I'm not here to defend Chief Rusty. I'm here to defend the men of the CFD from people who are here to blast them.
I'm also not here saying things shouldn't change and the training is where it should be.
trinitytim,
I am slightly defensive but we should, like you said, wait for the outcome. I'm not slighting your opinion or saying we can't have one but the opinions that matter the most are the men from the CFD.
People who weren't even at the fire are trying to comment on how they would have done this and that.. blah blah. Unless you were there - all you/we can do is wait for the results because it's so easy to say - well this is how we do it here.
Thanks for taking the time to reply to me.
August 12, 2007 at 10:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
nickiegarbeil,
Thank you for posting. This is all I'm asking - is get your information from the CFD FF'ers who were there and are actually "in the know"
August 12, 2007 at 10:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
exorcist_pencocky
I am willing to accept that the citizens have a right to their opinions but I can't sit back and listen to "they should have done this or they didn't get this"
Only the men know the real answer because they are the ones doing the job - not the citizens.
August 12, 2007 at 10:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
rodr (anonymous) says...
Hold it folks........
I'm quite sorry for the CFD folks that lost their lives and the entire community for the loss that has clouded the area. However, as a professional firefighter from another part of the country, the FEMA testing is based on material we've been using for years, especially in the wildland and forest service. Regardless of the length of time it takes to pass a test or check a box - a person still has to know the material.
It's like your drivers license - anyone that's been driving for a while should be able to pass the test based on your practical experience. also, some of these classes aren't rocket science it's merely a way to standardize the industry.
Anytime there is a loss within an organization these kinds of articles and assumptions come forth. let's channel the grief into a productive conduit.
August 12, 2007 at 10:29 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
hebthree: NO ONE IS BLASTING THE FFS OF THE CFD. Back in late June and early July a great many very frightened CFD ffs posted on a number of sites begging the general public to write and speak out on their behalf. They were afraid of losing their jobs. Many of them were at the SSS fire. I only sent you one. Most of them stated they did not have proper training and did not have adequate leadership. Without proper training, if they got fired for speaking their minds, they wouldn't have a place to work. I have said before, on a number of sites, that ALL ffs are heroes---not just the ones who lose their lives. These CFD ffs have embraced people on these sites as family....we are not going to lock them out. Waiting for an "outcome" could be time consuming and someone else (ff or civilian) could die. Would you do that to a family member? Not me, hebthree, not me.
August 12, 2007 at 10:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
Well considering CFD members have been ordered not to go "on record" and state their opinion. I am convinced that they are unable to tell the chief what changes they think their dept should make, for fear of losing their livelihood. Several have emailed me and pm'd me, thanking me for being vocal in their absence. Also, considering these reports could take as long as year or more, I feel there is still great risk for the dept and the public. So the answer to your question is, no I am staying here as long as I see a snow job there in the middle of hurricane season.
This next statement may offend many people here, including those who are in agreement with me. I apologize in advance.
As to your general theme that you all are used to it and you hear it everyday,
To be blunt: Those 9 men were there too, and now they are gone! 9 firefighters don't die everyday, ANYWHERE!!!
August 12, 2007 at 10:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
Rodr
"Anytime there is a loss within an organization these kinds of articles and assumptions come forth. let's channel the grief into a productive conduit."
I agree. Great comment.
Best of luck to everyone. I won't be coming back. I get too worked up. I know people have the best of intentions so I hope the results of the investigations lead to a safer environment for our brave men.
God Bless.
August 12, 2007 at 10:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hebthree (anonymous) says...
Vesta,
You are absolutely right. I think we are both traveling in the same direction just on different roads so I see where you are going and definitely agree.
Fyrmnjim,
You missed my point and turned it into a different direction but I know you just want the best as well.
Thanks to both of you for speaking up.
August 12, 2007 at 10:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
trinitytim (anonymous) says...
hebtree,
We're with you my friend. God bless you and thanks for all that you do. You and your brothers and sisters are my heroes.
August 12, 2007 at 11:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jrff27 (anonymous) says...
The Charleston Nine were very heroic men! They did what they were trained to do. Unfortinately the worst thing that happened did, but they were doing what they LOVED!!! The Charleston Fire Department does not need people telling them what they did wrong, because they know. Chief Rusty Thomas is a very smart man, and he will fix what needs to be fixed. The media, and the public just needs to lay back off the situation, and let the Charleston F.D. handle. If no fatalities had occured everyone would have loved the F.D. because they did such a great job putting it out, so like i said, let Charleston handle this, and the families, and the public stay out!!
August 12, 2007 at 11:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
There are none more blind than those who 'will' not see. Open your eyes and see whats happing to your city, charleston.
August 12, 2007 at 11:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
jrff27 ---->>very well said! i completely agree & that is what i have been trying to say this whole time but apperently i can't get the point across.. hopefully people will understand you!
August 12, 2007 at 11:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JuniorFF14 (anonymous) says...
I agree with jfff27, i think the fd can handle this. they know what went wrong and now there preppared to fix it. the media nor the public does not need to tell charleston how they should fight fire! chief rusty will b there with charleston till the day he dies. he will not give up this one. if he goes down its with a fight!!
August 12, 2007 at 11:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
jrff27: The CFD didn't "put it out". It was on the ground and in that rubble were nine dead ffs. That is NOT normal firefighting. Like Harpo said, we are not going to "lay back off the situation". Those nine heroic men loved fighting fire, not getting killed. If something needs to be fixed, why wasn't it fixed before this?? Are we to trust people in charge who allowed the ffs to cheat to pad the files with training certificates? Ummm, I don't think so.
August 12, 2007 at 11:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
and adding to jouniorFF14 & jrff27, the public has not been through the training that is needed to be a firefighter and gone through the things that the firefighters have gone through so no one should be telling them how to do there job.
August 12, 2007 at 11:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
jrff27, are you trying to infer that the citizen of the city of charleston are to stupid or don't have the right to be involved with what's happening with 'THEIR' fire department. The mayor, fire chief, and others on down work for the citizens of the city of charleston though one would think they have forgotten this.
August 12, 2007 at 11:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
JuniorFF14: So, did he get to you again? You junior ffs need to start thinking for yourselves and not being blindly led by some emotional hysteric. "...the media nor the public does not need to tell charleston how they should fight fire!" NINE men were killed in that fire, guys. That is NOT NORMAL and it sure doesn't sound like who ever is in charge knows how to fight fire.
August 12, 2007 at 11:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
I believe that the best chief would be one hired from out of the area. Someone who isn't a player in this good ol' boy network and who will be dedicated to bringing the department into this century while fighting "city hall". Whoever it is will have a daunting task ahead of them.
August 12, 2007 at 11:38 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
vesta: we are not at all saying that having 9 men killed in this fire is one bit normal. we know it is not normal. jrff27 and jouniorff14 have both grown up around the fd and they would know that.
August 12, 2007 at 11:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jrff27 (anonymous) says...
Listen.. The citizens should have a say, but they do not need to push the situation, because as i said before they know what needs to change. And vesta Charleston fire fighters put the fire out, so get that right. they were out there all night and day busting their asses, to save lives, and protect the community!!! And that cheating crap..... Officials are going to investigate, so let them. They are aware of the situation, so the public needs to back off!! it will get fixed!! And they did not need to change anything before, because everything was fine!! obviously u were not bothered by how they worked, so leave it to that. Charleston will stand, I will stand, and we will not be overtaken by ignorance!
August 12, 2007 at 11:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
There seems to be something here that some people seem to be desperate to sweep under the rug. To, how do you say, whitewash the truth. The 'Truth' is always the first victim when politicians are involved.
August 12, 2007 at 11:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
No, SHSgirl, the public has not gone through the training that a ff needs, and, obviously, neither have the CFD ffs.
August 12, 2007 at 11:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
jrff27 amen! i agree.
August 12, 2007 at 11:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jrff27 (anonymous) says...
Wardlafrance...... CHIEF RUSTY THOMAS IS STAYING UNTIL THE DAY HE DIES!!!!!!! There will be no other chief!!!!
August 12, 2007 at 11:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
And nine brave souls were sacrificed on the fiery altar to appease the political status quo.
August 12, 2007 at 11:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JuniorFF14 (anonymous) says...
vesta: If the cfd ff's werent trained why do they have a rookie school? why do they have 11-52 classes. its all basic firefighting you need to become a vol. or paid firefighter.
August 12, 2007 at 11:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jrff27 (anonymous) says...
yeah they sacrificed their lives for those who were in the building, and those who were in the building, are alive today.. so they got the job done, but unfortinatley, their lives had to be given, but they died doin what they loved!!!
August 12, 2007 at 11:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Jrff27 said Wardlafrance...... CHIEF RUSTY THOMAS IS STAYING UNTIL THE DAY HE DIES!!!!!!! There will be no other chief!!!!
I really want to be sarcastic here, but it would be disrespectful to those who have already been lost. Time will tell what happens to Rusty. However for the sake of the men, the morale, the profound history of Charleston and its department it is time for a new leader whether you like it or not.
August 12, 2007 at 11:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
And the children stood round and clapped and cheered for they new not what it meant.
August 12, 2007 at 11:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
exorcist_pencocky ----->> whats that supost to mean? are you saying that we have no idea what we are talking about?
August 12, 2007 at 11:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
harpo what the hell are you trying to say?
August 12, 2007 at 11:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jrff27 (anonymous) says...
wardlafrance..... like i said.. THERE WILL BE NO NEW LEADER!!! Chief Rusty is a great chief and he is staying wit Charleston. The Fire Fighters, are not going to let one of their brothers go like that. U oviously dont know how strong the family is in a fire department, especially after they lose brothers
August 13, 2007 at midnight ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
So, now the only support the chief has are the children. Yes, the innocent and naive. So sad.
August 13, 2007 at 12:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jrff27 (anonymous) says...
And ur short of ur ignorance as u talk more, and more!! U dont know nothing bout fire fighting!! what adult watches harry potter?? my dad is a captain for 17 years, so u would be the one who doesnt talk or ur words.."the muggles".. i know my stuff!!
August 13, 2007 at 12:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Jrff27: I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent. Write back in 10 years and we'll talk.
August 13, 2007 at 12:09 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jrff27 (anonymous) says...
Children.. I am a man!! And we will out do the people like u by millions, so what u say is nothing to us!!
August 13, 2007 at 12:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Hebtree,
Yes...I am receiving email, phone calls, and other information DIRECTLY from CFD members in the know. I would NEVER post irresponsibly without checking first. If it is something I cannot verify, I say so.
These men are ANGRY, hurt, bewildered and disgusted at the policies and actions of the city in this and past fires.
SHSgirl, It DOES appear from your posts and those of the various others posting from within your age group, that you do not understand the issues here.
You are sweet to defend Coach, but he doesn't need defending in that manner...he isn't under attack...not even in the slightest. We are trying to protect the rest of the men and women in the Fire Departments. Calm down...
What we are doing here is at the request of INSIDE firefighters within the department.
Easy Harpo...LOL They are still children. Age and experience separate us from them...one day the light will come on and they will see...until then, we hug them and comfort them the best a community can...
August 13, 2007 at 12:10 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jrff27 (anonymous) says...
thats right!! u will walk off first!! because i will fight til the day i die!!! So go on wit ur worthless self, because u dont know nothing!!
August 13, 2007 at 12:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JuniorFF14 (anonymous) says...
"They cant talk crap unless they were there. i spent nine hours at that fire." im sayin this on behalf of a real firefighter "go to hell"
August 13, 2007 at 12:13 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jrff27 (anonymous) says...
Harpo.. chief rusty, and the mayor, have been standing together since the fire!! get reall!!!
August 13, 2007 at 12:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
JRFF27,
Then act like one...Look people...addressing each other with complete disrespect isn't going to fix any of this...
Whether the Chief stays or goes isn't the issue either...it is that NONE of this happens again. If that means Chief retires that isn't the end...that is just the beginning of trials and issues to come. I am betting he is finding himself battling the realization that he has lost of confidences of his men, and eventually the Mayor...as I said before, Rusty is his pawn, and when his pawn is a liability, he will send him packing. The real hard work comes when someone else takes over, and these changes need to be implemented...hard work, grief, and finally a payoff of the best CFD in history...While it is likely the Chief will leave when the reports come out, the hard work and public attention STILL needs to be here.
August 13, 2007 at 12:18 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Harpo: Think about what it will take to begin to update the training. From what I understand the equipment is questionable also. If there is no certified SCFA or NFA training in place they will have to start with the basic FF course and then Interior Structural Firefighter. Incident Command System, Emergency Vehicle Driver Training, Pump Ops- these are all basic courses. If there is no one within the department who has these basic certifications, will anyone in the dept. be qualified to lead these guys?
August 13, 2007 at 12:19 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Harpo and WardLaFrance: The difficulty will be logistically moving ffs and whatever chiefs do stay to take courses at the SCFA. Will the city be able to afford this intense training at one time?
August 13, 2007 at 12:23 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
jrff27 - And ur short of ur ignorance as u talk more, and more!! U dont know nothing bout fire fighting!! what adult watches harry potter?? my dad is a captain for 17 years, so u would be the one who doesnt talk or ur words.."the muggles".. i know my stuff!!
Yes child, you know your stuff, and I'm sure your father is proud of the quality education you have received, that he worked so hard to provide you.
August 13, 2007 at 12:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Harpo: from all previous postings, sounds as if you'd have to come way down the ladder to weed out the "good ol' boys". Moving someone in there without the proper training would get the CFD back where they started--an inept chief.
August 13, 2007 at 12:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jrff27 (anonymous) says...
Listen.. this brings it to the top!! God has all in control!!! He is the top dog, so im putting it into His hands, and i know and believe He is wit the department, and the families, as well as the public. Im done fighting with stupidity!!! GOD BLESS THE CHARLESTON NINE!!!!!
August 13, 2007 at 12:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
JuniorFF14 (anonymous) says...
excorcist_pencocky--->> there are no children posting comments on this website. We all know what were talkin bout, are u a city firefighter? or in an overall point of view a firefighter?
August 13, 2007 at 12:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
jrff27 (anonymous) says...
yea my dad has trained me well!! i was raised a smart man!! and i can tell a ignorant man quick.. and its you!!!
August 13, 2007 at 12:30 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Exorcist_Pencocky: What do you think about LaFrance's post of 12:19?
August 13, 2007 at 12:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Vesta: It's certainly not something that could be accomplished over night. IMHO There'd have to be some "train the trainer" events where the chief officers got their certifications, went back to their ffs and did training in preparation for the classes that the ff would eventually attend. Then at least some of the basic tenets would be in place, such as Incident Command/NIMS. There'd have to be some sort of timeline and a penalty for non-compliance or there would be temptation to fall back into the old ways.
August 13, 2007 at 12:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
WardLaFrance: That sounds logical. I wonder if they might need another panel (separate from the one currently reviewing the facts) who would be responsible for checking the progress and keeping them in line with a timeline. It would have to be composed of non-CFD ffs or, as you said, there would be a temptation to slip backwards. The power issue is also on stage...there may be a number of chiefs who are waiting for Rusty to step down so they can be another Rusty.
August 13, 2007 at 12:39 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Ward, fantastic ideas....I realize that NIMS is the law, but is there some sort of compliance checks in place already? My other thought is that from the inside men, they are saying the hoses are inadequate(sizes used by CFD)...Nothing regulates a standard of the equipment utilized by departments, correct?
August 13, 2007 at 12:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
for your information jrff28 has been trained very well. he has been around firefighting all his life as well as jouniorff14. the traning these guys go through is like a living hell "the people talking all this crap probley couldn't get through a week of the training we go through. if they think they can do it then why are the sitting around doing nothing? if they thing its so easy and that it doesnt take extream mental & physical strength to be a FF then why aren't they one?"
August 13, 2007 at 12:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Harpo: I see some potential problems with your comprehensive testing idea. It would probably work to gauge the knowledge, but would be time consuming. If they don't know the stuff, let's get them into proven SCFA training right away. If the personnel know the material, then the SCFA classes will make a nice refresher and then CFD will meet the same standards as other departments in the state. It might even be possible to challenge the SCFA standard exams, but in light of what we hear about the training issues, I would personally be more comfortable with completion of the entire course.
August 13, 2007 at 12:44 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
exorcist_pencocky (anonymous) says...
I believe that once the impedance from the top is finally removed, by removing those at the top, its going to be a long, hard and expensive road to travel to bring the city of charleston fire department up to were it should have been all along.
Now if you will excuse me, the sun is coming up soon, and I have fires to fight and dragons to slay.
August 13, 2007 at 12:47 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Harpo and Ward...I agree...I know there are Council members watching this...I have received no less than 20 emails supporting our quests and ideas...
Ward, can you explain the SCFA training in a little more detail?
August 13, 2007 at 12:52 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Harpo: I am not so sure that a name wasn't put up on another site. I cannot remember who posted or the name that was offered, but it was someone with what sounded like strong training and background. The difficulty with the new chief is, however, you have to have some of your equipment brought up to standards, or the new chief will have his/her hands tied.
August 13, 2007 at 12:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
shsgirl92 (anonymous) says...
nickieharbeil --> good! the council members are watching this.. mabey they will see what us "kids" are trying to say!
August 13, 2007 at 12:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
I think that (Although I'm not positive until I verify) that if your officers don't have NIMS certification, you are not eligible for grant money through the state.
In the SCFA Pump Ops class you learn about supply lines, what sizes they should be for attack and supply engines. In Interior Structural FF class it teaches you what size hoses deliver specific amounts of water... most interior attacks are done with 1 3/4 inch hose while exterior attacks are done with 3". You can do an interior attach with a 3 inch line, the drawback being it requires more personnel. Most departments don't even bother with booster lines, instead using 1 1/2 or 1 3/4 rubber "trash" lines for something like a car fire or a grass fire.
NFPA regulates what equipment is carried on the apparatus. ISO inspection will dictate what equipment should be carried that will affect your rating.
August 13, 2007 at 12:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
I personally know of several who would make very good candidates but would not be willing to post their names in a public forum. My advice would be to contact SCFA in Columbia, NFA in MD and the Tri-County Chief's Association and ask for their imput and/or recommendations.
August 13, 2007 at 1:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Thank you Ward...
Does that make SCFA required? or just recommended? It appears that there are decent standards in place in Fire Service, but that there is nothing requiring them...other than NIMS...is this accurate?
What is to prevent a department, Chief, etc, from using smaller lines when larger are recommended?
August 13, 2007 at 1:24 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
SCFA training is tiered training. In most departments it is a hard and fast rule that no FF will enter a structure fire who is not SCFA Interior certified. That certification is a level of training and comes from SCFA. After ff is receives the basic courses, they then can attend a variety of classes on many subjects including HAZMAT, Automobile extrication, Tactics and Strategy, etc- there are many to choose from. Go here for info:
http://www.scfa.state.sc.us/ and check out the public course dates for this year. These are the classes that other departments in the state REQUIRE their officers and ff to attend. These certifications are not obtained by computer. They are offered at various times all over the state so that all departments have the opportunity to have people in attendance.
August 13, 2007 at 1:26 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Nickiegarbeil asked: What is to prevent a department, Chief, etc, from using smaller lines when larger are recommended?
You have to have a certain amount of waterflow in order to put the fire out. so the answer there would be "intelligence." :) The larger diameter of hose, the less friction loss, therefore the greater amount of water on the fire. The smaller the hose, the less water.
August 13, 2007 at 1:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Ward..."intelligence" agreed...and we see what happens when that element is missing????
What about NIMS? This particular article speaks volumes to how seriously NIMS is NOT taken locally...according to this article, barring my own information of course...
NIMS is an integral part the command system and right hoses or not, if you don't have a decent command system and control of the multi agency scene, what good are the hoses? Maybe online NIMS is also not the answer?
August 13, 2007 at 1:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Regarding certification, it is my understanding that the chief has the right to certify his ff with the training that he deems necessary- but he is held accountable for that personnel. SCFA has set standards to assist the chief in making those decisions. IFSAC (International Fire Service Accreditation Congress) is what most fire departments use now, and is mol a national certification and gives ff reciprocity in other states. It's taught through the fire academy.
I would advise any decision-maker who might be interested in the training of city firefighters or lack thereof, to contact the SC Fire Academy, meet with them and decide the best course of action to bring the city up to standards. THAT should be the first step in making much needed changes.
August 13, 2007 at 1:48 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
And City accountability? Beyond the Chief (Mayor, City Council, Etc.)...is there also City accountability for failure to not bring these departments up to speed?
August 13, 2007 at 1:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
NIMS is just an attempt at standardizing command. I believe it's taught by the coastguard and is to bring all the agencies like FD, EMS, PD, AF, CG together. It's not specifically geared to the FD. Incident Command or ICS takes away the chaos. It's knowing who's in charge, where everybody is and what has to be done next. It's size-up, tactics and strategy and above all, safety of personnel. ICS and NIMS are strong on accountability of personnel- location and status.
Okay. you've outlasted me tonight...
Good Night!
August 13, 2007 at 1:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Thank you Ward...for your information and your willingness to talk to us here.
THANK YOU
Night!
August 13, 2007 at 1:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Posted by nickiegarbeil And City accountability? Beyond the Chief (Mayor, City Council, Etc.)...is there also City accountability for failure to not bring these departments up to speed?
Yes- which you will probably see as the lawsuits begin. In some cases, held more accountable than the chief. Maybe not in this case, but it can happen.
August 13, 2007 at 1:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Interesting thoughts...Thank you again..."see" you in the morning
August 13, 2007 at 2:32 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FieldCom (anonymous) says...
Firstly, my sincerest and most heartfelt condolences to all brothers and sisters in the City of Charleston. Your brothers died as true heroes and are worthy of the highest honors and greatest respect of us all. Also my best wishes to the families and close friends. You are always in my thoughts and I know what you must be feeling and going through.
I appreciate everyone's input here and I want to thank you for what is an intelligent, emotive and interesting debate, provided from several points of view. I just want to 'vent' some of my own feelings and what I also believe are some 'facts'.
1. Chief Thomas and his staff are not evil or bad people (I know someone already said this). In fact they are probably very fine people who believe in themselves and their own objectives.
2. Mistakes were made and are obvious to the profession, both inside (apparently) and outside of Charleston and these mistakes contributed greatly to the deaths of nine heroes.
3. Most of these 'mistakes' were made long before the fire even began! I refer to equipment; strategy, tactics, procedures, pre-planning etc.
4. Hindsight is a valuable tool that we don't have on-scene but the catastrophic breakdowns that so obviously occurred at the incident itself were foreseeable long before this fire.
5. The investigation needs to be thorough if it is to cover all angles and reveal the source of these failings, for the conclusions will have major implications on how the fire service is managed in areas way beyond the boundaries of Charleston alone.
6. To honor our brothers (both the dead as well as those who remain) we must ensure that these failings are not allowed to exist or continue in ALL areas of fire service management, everywhere! We must all learn something from this terrible tragedy.
7. Your views are all listened to ....
God bless all of you.
August 13, 2007 at 5:28 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Pols101 (anonymous) says...
This is par for many government agencies. I don't know anyone involved here, but it has been my experience that most people are promoted because they are well liked and not because they are the most competent. This does serve a purpose, that of the higher ups are better at getting along with people. The problem is that in "certain" areas that involve life and death decisions you need the best-most competent people in command. If they are not well liked will anybody listen to them? I have worked in government jobs for 25 years and have a BS in Political Science. My field is public safety. The tapes sound bad. It is pretty obviously unorganized and has command problems. Once the firefighter calls "mayday" all should have stopped until that man was found. If you listen everybody is still talking all over each other on the radio after the "mayday" call is made. That is not the only issue. It sounds as if no one knows what is going on and where the firefighters are. How can you fight a fire of this size if you don't know who is doing what? When I first listened the the tapes I tried to attribute the problem to the "fog of war" but I can't do it. It is a "incident command" issue. Don't blame anyone. This just happened. A good suggestion is to have incident commanders that have fire science degrees (real degrees) with incident command courses in charge of these big fires. People with the highest GPA's and experience in similar size cites will work well. The chiefs will not like it because they think it hurts their power and most don't like real education because they have none. I don't know but am willing to bet that there is not a four year degree in a related field anywhere in the command structure of this department. Does anyone know if there is?????
August 13, 2007 at 6:27 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
I read this morning about how other areas might be libel if they allow us into their areas but don't insist we abide by their rules. It was an email from a local chief and then was posted at firefighter hourly. Just food for thought. http://www.firefighterhourly.com/fire...
August 13, 2007 at 7:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Pols101, I believe that there is not...good post!
Besides MAYBE the police Chief...They require a bachelor's degree.
August 13, 2007 at 8:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Cap,
That is a good question posed on this site...here would be MY guess:
I am going to speculate that your own Chief or head of YOUR incident command would be held liable along with THEIR IC. It should honestly be a given that the responding department abide to the jurisdictional rules of the location of the fire. The problem is, that there is no real STANDARD practice between different departments in different jurisdictions. How would you, or could you know the rules? Besides working out a cooperation agreement ahead of time and drilling(training) with them. Another good reason to standardize policy and procedure through NIMS, so everyone is on the same page?
Just my best guess...
August 13, 2007 at 8:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Fire_Inspector (anonymous) says...
Part of the issue is that:
1) There is no local fire science college level curriculum
2) hiring at CFD is all at the Good Old Boy level, so having an education is no benefit when you apply
3) From what I've been told by CFD firefighters, there is no real training anyway.
August 13, 2007 at 9:54 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
FieldCom, you made some good observations, but what is upsetting everyone here is the Chief's attitude. He believes he is doing nothing wrong and said he will not change. Just look at these quotes again.
This is a selection of quotations from Fire Chief Rusty Thomas to the Post & Courier since the June 18, 2007 fire.
Chief Thomas:
"Will I have trouble hiring nine people?" he said. "Not one bit."
"The captains in our fire departments, they call the shots," Thomas said. "They made the decision."
A copy of the inspection report is kept in a truck at the nearest station, and at the fire department headquarters downtown at Wentworth and Meeting streets. But the report would have been worthless on Monday, Thomas said. "It would not have been any use to us with the amount of fire that was there," he said.
"as far as if they knew it was steel truss construction and stuff like that, I don't know if my guys knew or not."
Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas said Friday that he does not know whether his department's policies mirror federal and state guidelines for managing a fire scene. "I don't know," he said. "I know we have our own."
"I'm just going to let you know we have our own incident command system. We have it written that the highest-ranking official is automatically in charge. I don't care how it is anyplace else."
"Our firefighting techniques are not going to change in the city of Charleston Fire Department,"
"We're safe, we've got the best equipment, we've got the best people and that's the way we fight fires," he said.
"That's the tradition that's been carried on in the city of Charleston Fire Department since time was time," Fire Chief Rusty Thomas said. "Are we going to let someone's property burn? No, sir."
"We come from a long line of traditional firefighting, and we are never going to get away from that - never," Thomas said. "You can't read out of a book how to put a fire out. You have to go out there and do it, and that's what we do."
"The booster has its place in the Charleston Fire Department, and it's up to our captains on the truck to pull whatever size hose they think is needed to put the fire out," Thomas said. "That's the way we do it."
Thomas said fire crews did not take any cameras into Sofa Super Store that night. "I don't know why," he said.
"We keep them on the front seat of the ladder trucks, so that when they get off and he (the captain) needs the camera, it's right there," Thomas said.
August 13, 2007 at 10:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
But there IS a standard- all the surrounding area FDs have mutual aid agreements, standardized training and certification thru the SCFA, they use ICS/NIMS and do PAR checks. They are all on the same radio frequency, including EMS, with every exception being the City of Charleston FD. When more than one department responds to a call, the responding units are advised over the radio where/who the IC is and where to report when they arrive (staging area) and are given their assignment. The personnel is listed on a board along with their duty. Keeping track of personnel is THAT easy. NCFD is probably one of the best at this entire accountability system. This entire IC procedure integrates the manpower somewhat smoothly. They all recognize the IC and there is no question WHO is making the decisions. The city however, was an entity unto themselves. It's been said more than once that "wherever Rusty Thomas is- well, that's THE IC"
August 13, 2007 at 10:51 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
A great many fire departments also use "Incident Command Vests", which are clearly marked and visible in the dark. I realize Rusty Thomas is a big figure, but when you are in a smoke filled environment, and total chaos, does anyone know in the CFD where IC is? Another critical issue with IC is that the IC speak clearly. On the tapes, many of the ffs asked him to repeat what he said, and one even asked two or three times to repeat. Calm, stable, intuitive and knowledgeable IC is crucial to everyone going home alive after the fire. The fire gives the ffs enough pressure without trying to guess what the IC is saying, or, in fact who the IC is. Someone mentioned that each fire is different, and, granted, that is true. FFs could be battling a blaze in an industrial area where the ffs are not certain what is stored in the structure, or, something was put in that structure after the fire department did their yearly review. As in hearing the owner of the structure suddenly say, after ffs have gone in the building and there is a large explosion, "oops, we forgot to mention, we installed three large propane tanks in there last month." That is something that would put the ffs lives in jeopardy, but the Incident Command, the equipment and the training (good training) should NOT be the element that puts the ffs lives in danger.
August 13, 2007 at 11:42 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FieldCom (anonymous) says...
Bickleseagrave ....
Yes I have seen those comments in the newspaper articles and it sickens me. Some of them are inappropriate and I am sure the CFD lawyers appreciate the workload! The thing is, this stuff all smacks of living in a time warp! This is firefighting 1960s style .... Its 2007 and this shouldn't have happened.
I think the Chief knows it too and I wouldn't wish the feelings this guy must be having on my worst enemy. His statements sound like a man in denial. That could be a man who is reeling with after shock! Please don't think I am missing your point and I might be wrong. But his departmental leadership may well have (did) cost lives. Anyone might buckle under such pressure and make ludicrous statements, knowing that.
As much as I think his leadership is off track (that is simply an opinion from someone looking at a fire that was fought with 1960s equipment and tactics) I don't believe for one minute the man saw this coming. That is the tragedy here .... maybe someone higher up the line should be holding their hands up also for hiring him.
I do feel for him and I'm sorry if that upsets anyone.
August 13, 2007 at 11:43 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Unfortunately, they DIDN'T know and That WAS the way they did it. I am troubled by the huge job ahead- that of bringing the department in line with current practices and standards. For all intents and purposes, it will be starting from scratch. Who is going to be up to the task? Did somebody say CFD had 230 FF? That means 230 under-prepared men and women who risk more than their brothers and sisters in other departments. They risk more because they are just beginning to realize what they DON'T know. There is no harm in the CFD personnel. I don't know of a ff who isn't "in the biz" because they feel they are doing something worthwhile. They just really are NOT Class 1. That translates into trouble for the citizens, the personnel of CFD and the personnel of surrounding FDs. and no- screaming, unintelligible commands are not common on other fire scenes. Remember once the FD arrives, the emergency portion of the program is over and the "work" portion begins.
August 13, 2007 at 1:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mfdff (anonymous) says...
Lets stop throwing the blame on the fire chief and incident commanders. Those 9 men gave there lives for a job that they loved or they wouldnt have been there. Its not Chief thomas fault or any other commanders fault. I think they have enough on them right now to have people throwing blame on them every time they turn around. The nine that died had training just like the chief and assistant chief, if they felt it was unsafe then they wouldnt have went in there selfs. So lets stop looking for someone to blame all the time, and strive to train ourselfs to be better and remember these 9 brave sc firefighters that gave ther life in thew line of duty. I think chief thomas and his staff done an awesome job...
August 13, 2007 at 1:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
The mayor will be shocked by the financial costs of bringing what he thought was a class 1 department into tyhe modern age.
Truly, because the Mayor is so close personally to Rusty, the money is the only thing that will anger him.
August 13, 2007 at 1:25 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
FieldCom,
While I respect your opinion greatly, and I agree with you that he didn't see this coming, I have to tell you, sir, that he didn't see it because of his attitude and lack of training. It isn't for lack of him being told that this was coming, but in his mindset, from people inside the CFD, HE is the greatest that walked, and NO ONE is capable of telling him anything.
His own words that they have the best equipment and the best guys is only half right. The men have the tools, but he holds back their training, virtually crippling them.
My OPINION is that he does this because the smarter you make your men, the more they see your huge faults...it's about control, he has it, and he wants to keep it.
Respectfully,
Nickie
August 13, 2007 at 1:33 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Right on, Ward. That is going to be a monumental task bringing them up to what they should (and most CDF ffs want to) be. Most of them realized early on that they couldn't just quit and move to another department because they felt untrained. I am just batting this idea around, but I wonder if they did hire a new chief who is properly trained and hired an INTERIM director, whose sole job it would be to oversee the training (if not personally, then by the SCFA), and the slow purchase of equipment the CFD needs. That way, the new chief would be there to do his job without all these other elements hanging over his head. The Interim Director could work closely with the chief advising him of who got certain training and who still needed training in certain areas. As they progress, shifts could be scheduled with at least one ff with the most training, until all are up to the same level. Of course, when everything is up to standard, the interim director steps out. The interim director could, if he has the time, apply for grants that might help fund some of this training. This is a rough idea, but I wonder if something like this would fly? In this manner, the chief isn't bogged down with an immense amount of paperwork. I am not sure what the present training officer's qualifications are, but if they are good, he could move into this position and, when all is where it should be, move back into training officer position.
August 13, 2007 at 1:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
east4 (anonymous) says...
For all who are interested, people in the department who were once in Chief Rusty's "inner circle" are now bailing out and leaving him to stand alone. Everyone can plainly see what is going to happen. It is just a matter of time. I know and say this because I work there and have seen Chief Rusty in "action" many times. Please keep calling, emailing and whatever else you can do to all City Council members, and the Mayor to get your point across. We need help now!
Do not give up and throw in the towel. Never let a day go by that you do not remember those nine guys who lost their lives on that fateful day.
August 13, 2007 at 1:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
That's true, OldCap. By not budgeting more for training through the years, they didn't save a dollar. The best case scenario, regardless of who the chief of the department is- would be to hire NOW a certified SCFA instructor as the chief training officer and begin those programs NOW. The results of the fire investigations will be made public. The current chief officers will stay or they will go. The results of these investigations are beyond the department's span of control-The fire and subsequent investigations are catalysts but the priority should be to change/improve what can be changed or improved, as quickly as possible.
August 13, 2007 at 1:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Thanks East4!
Stay safe out there, and THANK YOU FOR DOING WHAT YOU DO!!!
August 13, 2007 at 1:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ff017 (anonymous) says...
I think it is about time that all those who keep posting on here claiming to be firefighters who are appalled by the actions of the Charleston FD and getting on their soapboxes talking about how much better their departments do things take a long look in the mirror. I have been a fireman in this state for twenty years now and know a lot of people in alot of departments around SC. 90% of who up until this one tragic day IDOLIZED the CFD and the way they fought fire. Now everybody else knows best. Take a look around your own department and see how many times the things you are criticizing here happen on your firegrounds, and you all know that the FEMA online training is a joke and everybody "passes" the tests under the group effort plan and there are answer sheets stashed away somewher in you stations. While we're being honest how many times have you taken a SCFA class and the Instructor gone over the test and answers verbatim five minutes before you took it. QUIT THROWING DARTS AT THE CFD COMMAND STAFF THEY DID NOTHING THAT ISN'T DONE BY PRACTICALLY EVERY OTHER DEPARTMENT IN THE COUNTRY MUCH LESS THE STATE.
August 13, 2007 at 1:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Vesta: What you suggest is actually the job description in other departments. Generally there is a chief training officer who supervises all the training, ensures it is current, tracks personnel certifications, heads up the critique of each call- I can't even begin to list all his duties. The chief's job is to get the $$ for the department through council, grants, etc. and to oversee the administrative areas of the department. The Assistant Chief's job is to handle the operations of the dept. as a whole. This includes overseeing the Standard Operating Guidelines (SOGs) training, preplanning- all aspects of the operational side of the department. He would assign a chief training officer who may have assistants who work under him.
The Battalion Chiefs run the daily operations of the department and should answer to the assistant chief. When these offices are functioning properly, the department runs smoothly without the added weight of additional "boards or directors". The span of control is usually 3 to 5 people. The chief is ultimately responsible for the entire department and it is his job to surround himself with competent personnel. If the personnel who know the duties are in place then the battle is mostly won.
August 13, 2007 at 2:07 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Ward: I did realize most of those responsibilities. I was looking at the fact that CFD MAY have to remove a lot of officers at the top, including the chief. The chief, who normally just does administrative duties (what you list above) would be overwhelmed stepping into a department where even his immediate officers are not trained. Although the chiefs, in most departments, are not normally at every fire, I think it would be important IF they hire a new chief (prior to getting everyone else "caught up"), to let him exercise IC to show the ffs as they are learning and getting "caught up" how the scene of the fire should be handled. I am just thinking that IF they have to get rid of (or some quit) assistant chiefs, and battalion chiefs, there is no sense bumping up a CDF ff to one of these positions IF they don't have adequate training. I am also thinking that a new chief coming in will have to deal with the training of 230 ffs who are not properly trained, money for new equipment, the establishment of new SOGs, etc. Perhaps this Interim Director (a knowledgeable (up to date) assistant chief from a large town who is familiar with proper training, procedures, etc. or a recently retired chief from a large city who has kept his department up to date on training, etc.) could help establish the smooth running fire department CFD should and can be. Again, this Interim Director would not be a permanent position. When everything is running smoothly and up to standards, then everyone has their normal duties.
August 13, 2007 at 2:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mfdff (anonymous) says...
ff017, You just hit the nail on the head. Apparantly the people writing on this claiming to be firefighters are either rookies or jr. firefighters. I have been in this professon for 15 years, and I think all departments have ther own faults. some worse than others. All the people writing have forgotten the big issue at hand here. There looking for someone to blame because they know no better. I commend the command staff at the Cfd. You dont have and ISO rating of a 1 by being to far behind times. And i know Iso has nothing to do with running a fire scene. But lets all face it all fires are easy after they been put out. Always remember those 9 in SC.
August 13, 2007 at 2:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
You are right. Under the current practice, there most likely would be very few in the department who could command, much less bring organization to chaos. So an assistant chief dedicated to the administrative side of the department would probably be an asset. Perhaps new or somewhat new hires who came from other departments and have some outside experience and certifications in place. Your idea has merit but I think that having chief personnel who plan to stay and want to invest in the betterment of the department is a better option. You don't have to go far to look for qualified personnel. Chief Mimms, Chief Seabold, Chief Risto, Chief Thames, Chief Graham - these officers all have degrees and all understand the inner workings of a department. There are many, many others within the tri-county area. These people will aid in bringing in instructors and they all have a vested interest in how the CFD operates because they must work together on some firegrounds. Let the other departments be the gurus and go to guys.
August 13, 2007 at 3:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Vesta: I should have mentioned that IMHO, a new chief would have to hire in other chief officers to assist him. I would be afraid that any of the old guard might be too set in their ways to work along side a new chief with new ideas.
August 13, 2007 at 3:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Ward, I agree with your humble opinion as well...the old guard are deep rooted in Charleston, but I think people are finally seeing the facts and HEARING them for what they are. I think it would best benefit the CFD to go outside the inner sanctum of the low country...out of state? Minus the Rangers lurking in the outskirts, of course...
August 13, 2007 at 3:49 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Dog_Vomit (anonymous) says...
Has anyone else heard the CFD ISO Class 1 story I've heard circulating for years? That the guy assigned to them that year (late 90's maybe?) gave CFD a Class 1 because he was soon to retire and had never given a department a Class 1 in all his years, so he did it for kicks? Probably just jealous rumor, but just wondering...
August 13, 2007 at 3:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Under other circumstances, I would not generally respond to someone with the handle of "dogvomit" :) - however I have to get my 2 cents worth in here. I can't give any credence to that story because I know what a department must go through in order to obtain its rating. There is an earlier article regarding the class rating that explains a little know fact- that most of the areas of the peninsular city are class 1 but some areas on the peninsula and in outlying areas, such as Johns Island, James Island, and Daniel Island are as low as a Class 9- the difference mentioned being the distance between certain structures and hydrants. So because areas of the city are class one, they advertise that they are a Class 1 Department, inferring that their entire jurisdiction holds that rating.
August 13, 2007 at 4:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Ward and Nickie: That is what I thought also....the old chiefs would either be waiting in the wings to take over or try to make things intolerable for the new Chief so they could say, "See, it wasn't just Rusty. This isn't an easy task." I wonder how many ffs have quit since June 18. I did read about the two above. Anyone know?
August 13, 2007 at 4:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Ward, thank you for clarifying that...I think it is important for the general public to know and UNDERSTAND what exactly ISO CLASS ONE means. Can you sum it up for us again?
August 13, 2007 at 4:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
MJLowery (anonymous) says...
I don't know much about ff codes, procedures, and training, but I appreciate the education I'm getting just reading everyone's posts. Very enlightening.
It's about time the kids stopped their yacking and you all got to the "meat" of these issues.
Thanks.
MJL
August 13, 2007 at 4:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
This is the P&C link to the story regarding the rating.
http://www.charleston.net/
news/2007/jul/15/departments_insurance_rating_could_be_re10621/
The criteria might be found on the ISO web site which would probably be ISO.com I know that it takes into account equipment and vehicles, number of stations and location in the service area, manpower at each station and training along with other items.
August 13, 2007 at 4:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
See the below on how the public protection class is determined.
http://www.isomitigation.com/ppc/2000...
August 13, 2007 at 5:03 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Ward,
If SOME of the peninsula are class one, but others are as bad as class 9, how can the city proclaim an ISO rating of class one? Is it an average? Best two out of three? Or did they just PUBLICIZE the class one and ignore the rest?
Is there a map of the ISO rating jurisdictions? It might be interesting to see just WHOSE homes are class one overall and whose are not...
August 13, 2007 at 6:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
No one on Johns Island gets a class 1. Engine 17 is first due and the second due engine comes from James Island. We DO NOT ROLL St. Johns when a call goes out. There is no automatic aid. The ladder truck comes from station 10 on savannah highway.
James Island residents are covered by 2 engines AND the ladder that comes from West Ashley. If you are on James Island and there is a call on Johns Island you are now down to one piece of apparatus to cover city property. James Island would roll if the city called and asked or if WE HAD automatic aid.
If you are down around shadowmoss you have one engine there and once coming. The ladder truck has to come from Savannah Highway.
If you are on Danile Island or off of Clements Ferry you have 2 engines and 1 truck. The next closest is 14 minutes away. In perfect conditions you have less protection than Kiawah Island or Seabrook island. In fact you have little protection at all. Mount Pleasant will roll with us but we don't use Automatic aid. We have mutual aid but automatic gets them rolling at the same time.
If you are downtown living in the Dockside condo's - best of luck. Ask the Chief to come down and set up two aerials that can reach three sides of the building. Ask when the last time the standpipe was hydrostatically tested?
If you live south of broad you will ge a lot of apparatus in a hurry but water pressure will be low. The chief uses that excuse to avoid larger diameter supply lines.
If you live north of Mount Pleasant street you have decent protection.
Plus, when the ISO reveiwer comes this time, maybe he will actually visit ALL of the stations and ask to see evolutions performed. Oh and he won't allow the chief to pick which company. We all know how he feels about his firefighters out in the sticks.
The ISO class 1 was a sham from the get go. It will all come out in a few months.
August 13, 2007 at 6:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
Here's a simple question.....does anyone think that we can get a top-notch educated firechief to take on this huge task for $107,000 per year?
August 13, 2007 at 7:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
In a heartbeat but it will take time to change the culture. This is a 5 to 10 years job.
August 13, 2007 at 7:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
charleytowngirl (anonymous) says...
5 to 10 years! Wow! I mean I certainly understand that things won't change dramatically in the matter of a few months, but what happens to you guys in the meantime? How are you protecting yourselves now?
August 13, 2007 at 8:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Well, there's no doubt the litigation will knock your socks off. They should be bonded in some fashion but I have no idea about that for certain or in what amounts. Regardless of the ultimate payout, the sad story is that if a minute percentage of that sum had been spent on training this situation might have been avoided.
OldCap lays out the responses very well. Whether or not this is the picture that ISO has, who knows. He's also right in that it will take years to bring everyone up to speed. What is the length of the first SCFA course? 80 hours for Basic interior, 60 hours for NFPA FF1 and 36 hours for FF2. This is going to take a lot of time!
That no changes are being made as we contemplate these matters- that just baffles me.
August 13, 2007 at 9:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SCFireInstructor (anonymous) says...
250 years unimpeded by tradition!
Everyone who knows anything about the fire service in SC knows that Charleston is a horse of a seperate color. "Pull another booster!" still echos on the firegrounds of Charleston. I am deeply saddend by the loss of our brothers, and even more-so after listening to the tapes - very difficult for me. My home department experienced a very publicized LODD in 2001 due to sorry incident management and mistakes, but we have learned from the mistakes and pushed forward. Hopefully this incident will do the same for the brother and sister firefighters of the great City of Charleston.
August 13, 2007 at 9:22 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
norv (anonymous) says...
The nine FF ARE Heros. They were doing their job and no one can fault them for what they did. Unfortunately, proper proceedure and precautions were probably not followed that night and likely a major cause of their deaths. To my recollection, this is the biggest fire in Charleston since the old flea market (former train depot) on East Bay Street burned in the 1980s. Hopefully the investigation will determine what was not done properly that night to prevent this from happening in the future. But, it seems that the Fire Department crews that responded were overly excited and unorganized and sadly, entered into a situation that they could not control and for which they had no plan of attack or coordination. My prayers to the families.
August 13, 2007 at 10:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SamKentov (anonymous) says...
This is getting about ridiculous when I hear people basically saying "let it go" out of respect of the nine firefighters. I think that is the biggest bunch of BS out there. I've had about enough with people saying that the CFD and Charleston City is trying to set things right. If this was the corporate world and a CEO made a 9 million dollar gaffe, he/she would be escorted to the door without anyone batting an eye. Time for excuses is over, Fellas. Especially ones dealing with ignorance to up-to-date fire service practices. It's time to start out-sourcing personnel(AKA:You're Fired!). Starting with the Fire Chief. People say that these firefighters died doing something that they loved and that they knew what they were getting into. That is one of the lamest reasons to sweep it under the rug that I've ever heard, too. We live in a society that allows millionaire professional athletes to miss games because they feel a little under the weather. And, you expect someone to willingly give their life for far less. What a crock. Nine men died due to the lack of willingness to accept change. This process started years ago. It could have been avoided with a progressive Fire Chief. Does a pro sports team send their managers/coaches with a losing record back to school to learn how to win? No, they get rid of them for an immediate change. I think we all know what needs to occur to lessen the chances of this ever happening again.
August 13, 2007 at 10:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gfd119 (anonymous) says...
I having been following this tragic event from a distance both geographically and through the media. I will not bore you with background;just a 17 year veteran in the fire service..same department I am now Chief. Anything but a good ole boy kind of Chief. Started out as a Union President, led law suits against the City and now Chief.....wierd huh? Do not know Chief Thomas but what I heard on tapes I don't believe he's a mean man justscared, sorry, afraid and probably hurting. I heard his voice in the tapes...panic yes, but I believe a genuine concern for those who perished. Does anyone inside or outside of CFD believe the Chief had it in his heart to get these men killed? Tapes reveal he was scared. Anyone who says they wouldn't be is not being honest. Also, nothing I heard in those tapes that....probably 90+ percent of paid or volunteer departments have not sounded like.....I heard my department about 10-12 years ago. We've progressed but not experts and are always looking to get better. Few quick items....1 1/2 inch line called for with a 2 1/2 as 2nd line up....not horrible call....done that, been there. Some trouble getting supply line, called for about 8-9 times in 25 minutes. Sounded like two commanders, front and rear...sounded like maybe had opposing hand lines working in direct conflict with each other (one in back and one coming from front), pictures showed wind blowing back to front...appeared front opened up by windows being taken out....cross ventilation fueled the fire almost like a PPV fan....didn't hear anyone coordinating ventilation with water flowing. Obviously TICs would have helped, pulling a few ceiling tiles might have also. Didn't hear a evacuation alarm (our dept uses three blasts on the air horns) does CFD use one? Also,in first 25 minutes..never heard status reports from inside back to the outside for either Car 2 or Car 1. Does CFD give status reports as protocol? Bottom line, I honestly bellieve this...it is an operational system failure that is probably a cultural issue. From the newest firefighter to the most elder firefighter....sometimes education, training, experience and knowledge rest equally with the players as well as the coaches. Just understand there is a difference between 20 years of new, progressive, creative, etc...experience and one year of experience, education, training, repeated 20 times.
Going to go...did notwant to present my self as and expert. Anything but one. In this order......PERSONNEL, THEIR SAFETY IS ALWAYS FIRST...PEOPLE, CITIZENS ARE SECOND.....PROPERTY IS THIRD AND JUST KEEP THE PROBLEM FROM GETTING WORSE. God bless you guys in Charleston....your chief is hurting I believe...be kind; not evil or hurtful..I know you got to make changes, do so with dignity and respect for each other.
Thanks for your time. R. Wittenbarger, Chief, Georgetown Fire Departmen, Georgetown, KY
August 14, 2007 at 12:31 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BamaAnn23 (anonymous) says...
R. Wittenbarger,
Listen again, there were horn blasts...
August 14, 2007 at 6:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
The first time air horns blew were from the rear on Pebble Road. Then the front.
August 14, 2007 at 8:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
18yrsinthebusiness (anonymous) says...
I have read just about every article/news story, listened to the audio tapes, and have tried to understand what happened. To the C9 and their families my deepest sympathies. Chief Wittenbarger you have hit some of the nails closest to the head. I have never met a FF, Officer, Chief, or Elected Official that would want any harm to a single person that works with or under them. To the folks posting here who are obviously hurt defending the actions of some please be open minded. Listen to all the information given and become educated about your local Emergency Services Department and the national standards that are being mandated and ensure your elected/appointed official is providing the tools to go to work with.
From an objective look in with some working knowledge of past and modern FD's this article is a little off base. The best training given, taken, or stolen will be of no use if it is not implemented and mandated. Web based or classroom based the simple rules of the Incident Command System must be followed.
The investigations will clearly define any issues from a professional objective point.
RIP Brothers
John 15:13
August 14, 2007 at 11:33 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
18yrsinthebusiness I am posting this again for the fourth or fifth time. The problem here is attitude, this Chief is not going to change anything because he believes his way is the right way. Check out some of his quotes during this tragedy. It sounds like after listening to CFD firefighters on these forums after 2 months he hasn't even made one change.
Charleston Fire Chief Quotations
This is a selection of quotations from Fire Chief Rusty Thomas to the Post & Courier since the June 18, 2007 fire.
Chief Thomas:
"Will I have trouble hiring nine people?" he said. "Not one bit."
"The captains in our fire departments, they call the shots," Thomas said. "They made the decision."
A copy of the inspection report is kept in a truck at the nearest station, and at the fire department headquarters downtown at Wentworth and Meeting streets. But the report would have been worthless on Monday, Thomas said. "It would not have been any use to us with the amount of fire that was there," he said.
"as far as if they knew it was steel truss construction and stuff like that, I don't know if my guys knew or not."
Charleston Fire Chief Rusty Thomas said Friday that he does not know whether his department's policies mirror federal and state guidelines for managing a fire scene. "I don't know," he said. "I know we have our own."
"I'm just going to let you know we have our own incident command system. We have it written that the highest-ranking official is automatically in charge. I don't care how it is anyplace else."
"Our firefighting techniques are not going to change in the city of Charleston Fire Department,"
"We're safe, we've got the best equipment, we've got the best people and that's the way we fight fires," he said.
"That's the tradition that's been carried on in the city of Charleston Fire Department since time was time," Fire Chief Rusty Thomas said. "Are we going to let someone's property burn? No, sir."
"We come from a long line of traditional firefighting, and we are never going to get away from that - never," Thomas said. "You can't read out of a book how to put a fire out. You have to go out there and do it, and that's what we do."
"The booster has its place in the Charleston Fire Department, and it's up to our captains on the truck to pull whatever size hose they think is needed to put the fire out," Thomas said. "That's the way we do it."
Thomas said fire crews did not take any cameras into Sofa Super Store that night. "I don't know why," he said.
"We keep them on the front seat of the ladder trucks, so that when they get off and he (the captain) needs the camera, it's right there," Thomas said.
August 14, 2007 at 12:02 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
gfd119 (anonymous) says...
bickleseagrave....maybe and I emphasis "maybe" your Chief's way has also been the way of your department in the past and maybe it was the right way at a certain point in time or history....what I think makes us safe in this fire business is understanding the "right way" is also not the
"only way" and being receptive, reading, staying educated, testing, experimenting, training, research, development, etc...keeps us moving in the right direction. Going to throw out my general philosophy on addressing day to day operational issues, problems, concerns, policy, actions, etc....1st-Is it legal and am I following law? 2nd-Is it ethical? 3rd--Does it have the principles of fairness, honesty, equity, equality, integrity.....if all answers are yes....I usually go with it...make me right? Don't know, willing to give it a shot, sure....ask my guys to help me and back my idea or offer a better idea....always. Tradition is good....but here is a thought....could it be followers embrace tradition and leaders create tradition? All tradition had to start as a new idea...didn't it? Decisions between right and wrong are easy to make...the tough ones are deciding which is the "best right answer".
August 14, 2007 at 1:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Re2 (anonymous) says...
to the two JUNIOR FIREFIGHTERS poting on here. You are saying they died saving A life 1 person. Are nine firefighters worth one civilian. Being a good leader sometimes means knowing when to hold them and when to fold them. You dont send companies into an all out inferno to save someone when the chances of getting them killed are greater than the chances of making the save.
August 14, 2007 at 8:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
Maybe the "right way" was a poor choice of words, but this particular statement says it all.
"Our firefighting techniques are not going to change in the City of Charleston Fire Department," Quote from Chief Thomas.
I have been a career firefighter for 32 years, firefighting tecniques have and will change almost daily. Booster reels(for structure fires) and single 2 1/2 supply lines have not been used in most up to date departments for years.
I have been through quite a few administrations over the years but our department has always been well educated, all officers attend our Provincial Fire College(Equivalent to State) on a regular basis, instructors come in from the outside. I am proud to say our department is on the cutting edge as far as training and equipment goes.
$6000 for training in Charleston, they are twice the size of my department, we have three training officers not the one the CFD has. $6000 is probably our food budget for the many courses run in our classroom for Officer Development, Company Officer Certification, Instructor courses, Officer's meetings etc, the list goes on. All Officers meet at least Bi-Annually and are paid overtime to have this meeting, the spots are covered by acting officers. These sessions allow for a flow of information both ways, and many times the Chief has implemented ideas put forth to him during these discussions.
When I started we used to cut people out of cars with a K12 saw and cutting torches,you wouldn't even consider that now. You must progress in this business to keep every one safe.
Bottom line is to progress, EDUCATION is required not just in house but from experts and accredited Fire Colleges.
Also good COMMUNICATION is necessary as I mentioned, with a meeting at one time with ALL the officers. Our management believes it is necessary and don't mind paying the OT as well as the cost of coverage if necessary.
August 14, 2007 at 8:48 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
Nickie, there has also been a series started on www.firefighterhourly.com under the Charleston heading listing some Options for Change, I believe there are 7 or 8 parts so far. Some really good ideas, some a little far fetched, but at least people are thinking about what is needed.
Charleston Fire: Options Part One
An excellent way to build the best fire department in the country is to take hard charging aggressive firefighters, train them, and provide them modern leadership. Charleston has the potential. With that in mind here are some areas we will explore in the coming weeks. Each day we will post 5 new recommendations to consider until we reach the goal of 45 changes. These recommendations will be addressed separately in their own posts.
1. Send new firefighters to the State Fire Academy for training up through NFPA II OR Institute a recruit academy consisting of no less than 240 hours of training conducted by training officers who meet certain educational criteria set by an independent panel.
2. Expand the training department to four full time members with no corollary duties.
3. Begin a top down inventory of chief officers education profiles, service and outreach education, NFA and EFO programs.
4. Create a command training system that requires all chief officers to study tactics, building construction, working with the media, and the program should provide leadership courses. This training should be set up by an external panel and monitored for one year.
5. Expand the communications division and require certification for communications operators. Utilize the numerous channels provided by the current 800MHz system. Request an external review and hire a consultant to create a communications plan.
Take a look where these came from there are lots more.
August 14, 2007 at 9:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
I agree that I think those initial 5 are important...
I think one major important thing the City should implement is one that I mentioned earlier...I don't know what it could be called in civilian sectors, but in the military, we called them mass casualty training. What this is, if some don't already know about it, is a massive drill with the entire emergency response system...Police, Fire, Mayor, City Council, Public Affairs officer, dispatchers,power companies, water company, right down to the taxi cab owners...You put together a scenario(terrorism, major fire, plane crash, HURRICANES, etc) then you work on HOW these entities will work together, who does what...it's a massive training for the IC system CITY WIDE. This training is to help with any cross agency issues BEFORE the tragedy. When the exercise is finished, then it is critiqued on ALL aspects for weaknesses that need improving..FEMA compliance and public safety all in one...
Big detail...budget...I am looking into this, not very well versed in grants, but I think there is money in FEMA for this sort of training...it is one thing to take the tests,read the courses, it is another to be able to coordinate a city this size for a serious tragedy like we had on 6/18...
FEMA, on the other hand needs to fix the flawed system of their testing...satellite classrooms where computer classes are not utilized for emergency personnel.
August 14, 2007 at 10:46 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bickleseagrave (anonymous) says...
Maybe a little less spent on parks for a while!
August 15, 2007 at 11:49 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Radiowave (anonymous) says...
Charleston City council meeting:
Tuesday, August 21, 5:00, 80 Broad St. 2nd floor. I ask everyone following this thread to come to the meeting if possible to show support for positive change and support our FF.
If you live in one of the Charleston City council districts, I ask you consider speaking at the meeting. It is an open public forum and town meeting. Mayor Riley will be there as well. I'm trying to collect my thoughts but anticipate I will speak if I get the chance. Only 2 minutes! so let's start practicing our elevator speeches. Nothing too technical, just the basics as we've been discussing: better training, better equipment, integrated mutual aid and communications, having citizens contribute to the review and recommendation process, etc. Let's make this as positive as we can, this is our chance for the Mayor to hear our voice.
John - James Island
August 15, 2007 at 12:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
Here's the way I see it. If Rusty hasn't made any changes in two months and no new training initiatives have been sought, we might as well hang it up and wait for the next devastating injury so we can all sit around and say "I told you so." Of course we would get no satisfaction in being right- but if the loss of 9 hasn't motivated anyone to make immediate, serious changes, what's it gonna take? Everyone- and there are many- who said a catastrophic event was coming was right. Everyone- and there are many- who said "they're gonna hurt or kill someone, someday" was right. Like I said, though. There's absolutely no satisfaction in being right.
August 15, 2007 at 3:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
SamKentov (anonymous) says...
What needs to happen is the government of Charleston must move from the strong mayor to the Council-City manager form of government. It's time to get a professional to run Charleston's daily business not a senile politician.
August 15, 2007 at 3:51 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Ward,
I absolutely agree with you...at this point, we are at the mercy of waiting for the final reports...we have to demand change, while suggesting certain actions...I haven't changed my viewpoint, but we need to get the CFF to tell us what they want us to say Tuesday...I need about TWO or THREE CFF to contact me BEFORE this weekend...current CFF or retired is fine...preferably both. We have organized a meeting in town Sunday at a neutral location, out of public view...Your identities are safe, but we NEED YOUR HELP in coming up with ideas to give to City Council...Please help us help you...
August 15, 2007 at 6:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
I am grieving for the Charleston 9 and the remaining brothers and sisters, but the best tribute the city can pay is to re-evaluate its policies around structures, sprinklers, and firefighting.
The saddest part of this tragedy is that many issues were already known or have been learned through the tragedies of other fire companies.
Trained investigators will determine the precise causes, but there are issues that should obvsiously be examined:
-Sprinklers
-Pre-fire planning
-Assessment of a truss structure before entry
-Incident command and two-way information flow
-Use of thermal imaging cameras
At the bottom of this blog post are links to various resources. Some considerations that appear are:
--Truss construction..."should be the subjects of fire pre-planning and notification to the first-in firefighters. First-responding incident commanders should be notified of the explosion danger and the pre-plan when responding to that location."
-"conduct pre-incident planning and inspections for mercantile and business occupancies"
-"Be aware that fires can be in the truss void or other concealed areas..."
-"ensure that fire fighters performing fire fighting operations under or above trusses are evacuated as soon as it is determined that the trusses are exposed to fire"
-"ensure that the first arriving company officer does not become involved in fire fighting efforts when assuming the role of Incident Command"
-"ensure that the Incident Commander (IC) conducts an initial size-up and risk assessment of the incident scene before beginning interior fire fighting operations"
-"ensure that ventilation is closely coordinated with the fire attack"
-"consider using a thermal imaging camera as a part of the size-up operation to aid in locating fires in concealed areas"
-"ensure that the incident commander conducts an initial size-up and risk assessment of the incident scene before beginning interior fire-fighting operations"
"When light, moderate or heavy smoke conditions are found on arrival, thermal imagers may allow firefighters to assess structural integrity of truss floors, roofs and walls."
http://www.firehouse.com/training/dri...
http://www.firetactics.com/p326.pdf
http://firechief.com/tactics/firefigh...
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports...
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2005-132/
http://www.firehouse.com/brannigan/20...
http://www.osha.gov/Publications/fire...
http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf...
http://cms.firehouse.com/web/online/I...
http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf...
http://www.vententersearch.com/?p=119
Anachronisms die hard in this city, but those brave firefighters did not need to die as a result.
Fiddler7
August 15, 2007 at 9:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Radiowave (anonymous) says...
For all the ff reading and contributing to this dialog, your brothers in Charleston need you one more time. Pick up the phone, let everyone know, come to Charleston next Tue at 5. You need to speak for them because they can't. Two city council members are now willing to step up. Several voters will stand at the microphone and look Mayor Riley in the eye and ask why he won't help our ff, why he won't address this critical issue of public safety.
Tues, 80 Broad St. 5:00, fire trucks park for free :-)
August 15, 2007 at 9:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Each fireground is different, but there are unfortunate commonalities between the Charleston 9 and this LDD incident in Virginia. The truss structure was wood vs. metal, but the structure hid the severity of the fire when FF entered the structure:
http://www.interfire.org/res_file/pdf...
Please, people, press for positive change so that new policies and improved training can prevent future tragedies.
F7
August 15, 2007 at 9:28 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
What needs to be said to council is that pending the final report the chief needs to be placed on admin leave with pay. Further, the mayor should order all of us to wear SCBA at every fire. There are pics from the other day of guys without scba on. The mayor needs to appoint a caretaker chief to wait on the final report.
One booster reel should be removed from the apparatus with orders not to use them.
August 15, 2007 at 10:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ssm (anonymous) says...
It is my understanding oldcap that council will be making the rec for 1&2 admin leave. We'll see.
August 15, 2007 at 10:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
OldCap,
Thank you for that comment...Is there a possible suggestion for someone in the interim, or would someone just move up from within? What about some training issues? Is there something can be asked for you all now? My fear for you firefighters now is that even if he were placed on Admin leave along with car 2...where does that leave you all safety wise? Is there someone else with better knowledge that is capable of running the show and not getting anyone else hurt or killed? Not that I disagree, but I want to make sure that before we push something in the council area, that you are covered in the meantime..
I heard that as well SSM...I really don't think we will have to say anything in the council meeting about that...
August 15, 2007 at 11:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Someone made a comment on another site a while back...can't find it...but it mentioned something about the pre-plan procedures....I have heard conflicting reports that pre-plans WERE done and some say they WEREN'T...Once the City pre-plans, this person commented and stated that the plans are set out on the tables in each department....Are they gone over as a group or just left to read during the daily constitutional? Are they passed between stations as well?
What is the common practice? The reason for this question is that I was reviewing some of the comments Chief made and I came across the one stating that he didn't know if his guys knew the construction of the building was a truss system or not. That didn't seem to coincide with the comment from the other person that each stations gets a copy and it is put out on the table for all to read..That mode of going over pre-plans could obviously lead to firefighters missing the reports...Just a thought.
Also...can someone explain the SOP's to me again? Are they pretty standard through ALL departments, or does each city have their own? Would reading and studying pre-plans come under the SOPs?
August 15, 2007 at 11:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Guys, you have all seen my name around since this erupted..I'm not a "stranger", and my motivations are to help you..nothing more, nothing less..I completely understand your reluctance. In the process of calling and trying to get people motivated and aware, I have seen that the roots of the old guard are thick, and deep...met a lot of resistance, and found way more of Rusty's friends via phone than I cared to...I don't feel like I even know who to trust...You guys all look the same (smile)
The idea of meeting with a group was to pass along the information that we have gotten from you guys, the ones in the trenches...making people aware-I spoke with 30 people on the phone today and out of those people, less than FIVE have read the stories or comments online. I told them where they were, sent them links and expressed that it is a necessity for them to listen to the painful tapes...organizing a group, at least on my part(can't speak for anyone else)is not a political advancement tool...it is a public awareness tool..we can't get in council's face standing alone-I have never met a council member, and met the mayor once-think he is a pompous a$$ frankly)I don't know Rusty-met him once, didn't seem very remarkable to me(my opinion)..
You are all unable to come forth and speak for yourselves, so we thought it would be best to come as a group to show our solidarity for the CFF...If this makes you uncomfortable, we will back off and do as you wish..We are only trying to come up with ideas to help you...PLEASE give us some feedback...Tell us what YOU want from us..you have been here for us, now what can we do for you?
Please be safe and let me know...
August 16, 2007 at 12:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
People...I just found out about this article..I think it is something EVERYONE needs to look at..not for necessarily attacking anyone, but to further understand the general consensus within the fire service:
http://cms.firehouse.com/content/arti...
August 16, 2007 at 10:22 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Radiowave (anonymous) says...
To our ff - Some of us here are outsiders and civilians. We are struggling to understand and help as best we can. If you want us to be quiet and sit down, ok, we understand and will not intrude. If you want some of use to step up to the microphone next week, we will. We do not have an agenda, we are just the people who live and work here in Charleson. We support you and want things to get better - that affects all of us. Just let us know what you want us to do.
August 16, 2007 at 3:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Boosterhose (anonymous) says...
Definately keep on speaking up.
It would be nice to have some SCFA training in the stations. Not some internal bubba but instructors from forward thinking departments. Some of our IFSTA manuals are 25-30 years old. It's hard to determine if what you're doing is adequate with antiquated reference material on hand.
I'd like to see the 2 1/2 hose phased out. 3 inch would help alot and entail a minimum of training. Get away from water absorbing, higher maintenance cotton jacketed.
AC on the apparatus, shouldn't need to explain that one.
Dis the micromanagement. I don't think a department chief should don his dress suit and crawl under an engine looking for dirt. Hid job is administrative and should remain so.
It's well in the means of the station captain to inspect his own companies equipment and believe it or not actually gets done.
Maintenance is another issue. If they are going to leave high mileage equipment in service it should get repaired. Employ mechanics with the skills and temperament to get things done. If your call the shop to fix something the fact that it doesn't work is definately the fire companies fault.
At least in the shops mind.
Also dispatchers, their job is hard enough without being understaffed. Need a minimum of 2 on hand at all times.
August 16, 2007 at 5:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
east4 (anonymous) says...
Booster-
I agree with you so far and would like to add some things:
Do not forget the dark blue polyester uniforms. Remember what polyester does when it gets hot enough to burn- it melts!
The sorry a#@ turnout gear we use. The chiefs get the good stuff we get the inexpensive crap- My personal belief is we are expendable in Rusty's eyes.
I would like to add one more inch to that hose request. Make it 4 inch, Yes that is a thing of the past and the new thing now is 5-6 inch supply hoses.
Do away with the Monthly inspections of the trucks. I have personally spent 3-4 cleaning the truck only to go on a call at night and trash the hell out of it. So all that work for nothing. Not fun in dark blue pants and heat index that exceeds 110 degrees.
How about a Chief that does his job and lets the people below him do their job with out the micromanagement. Like you said do the Admin work and leave the firefighting and daily ops stuff to us.
Training- WOW that's a whole animal that needs to be wiped out completely and started over new. People who know my job and can effectively HELP me do it better. Not look to bust me back to fireman because of something he thinks I missed.
Just my thoughts
August 17, 2007 at 9:58 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
I'm formulating my next post, but in the meantime, I have to jump in here and tell East4 that although cleaning a truck isn't a fun thing to do, it's a must. Monthly inspections, daily check-offs and clean vehicles. Monthly inspections completed by the captains. Of course, these inspections are only as good as the person making the repair. If the person responsible for doing the repairs and PM isn't doing them, they ARE pointless. Monthly inspections and daily check-offs keep the tools of the trade clean and in proper functioning order. If some piece of equipment is off the truck and/or broken, the crew that follows needs to know about it. If not, they might have need of it on a fireground and will not be able to use it. As far as clean trucks go, that is important also. Firstly, its a matter of pride. If you take care of your equipment it will take care of you. If you truck is clean, then it lasts longer. If you do the budget, you will appreciate clean apparatus because you only have to replace it every 10 years, leaving room in the budget for other items- such as TRAINING and good BODY GUARD. If you take pride in your equipment, you take pride in your department and you advertise this to the world.
August 17, 2007 at 12:56 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
CodeGeek (anonymous) says...
Nickie,
Harry Carter is an outspoken, well-respected and frequent contributor to fire service journals.
One phrase he forgot to mention is one that has kept a burr under my saddle for a long time: "The Fire Service is 200 Years of Tradition Uninterrupted by Progress." Sadly, many in our industry recite that phrase only half-jokingly and almost as a badge of honor.
What other industry would profess that? Do you suppose the employees of Intel recite similar mantra every morning? How about the NYSE? What about the oil companies? If the "real world" crowed about it's reluctance to change we'd be mortified.
There has been -- and will continue to be -- substantial change in the fire service: improved breathing apparatus, communications equipment, TICs and real-time fire fighter tracking technologies are just a few items.
Gosh, in my dream of dreams the fire service will embrace fire prevention and give it as much of a commitment as they do putting fires out.
August 17, 2007 at 3:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
CodeGeek,
Thank you for the post...I have to say that was one of the best reads I have had in months...he is fantastic! At least IMHO...A lot of the technical issues are still above my understanding, but I was really impressed at how close to Charleston and this incident his paper paralleled...Through no accident, I am certain.
I think it is time for Fire Professionals all over the country to bring information to the attention of the public and the fire service...and in a VERY public way...
Everything, even fire service, is meant to evolve...you have come a far distance from the days of horse drawn water carts...for a reason..someone somewhere got tired of burying their men, and decided to look for advancements in technology..Why do some in the service scoff at this so much today???? It is a natural progression of events...
You are right...
August 17, 2007 at 5:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
You know, since the prelim reports came out today...we need to maintain an active roll in keeping the attention going...We dont want the city to think that we will float away into the sunset and consign this into our views of the past..this report IS NOT a guarantee that it will be implemented...Keep posting and pushing for these things to be met.
August 17, 2007 at 6:05 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FiddlerCrab7 (anonymous) says...
Has anyone compared the growth in the city's tax base and population with increases (if any) in spending on emergency services (including firefighting)?
It is a travesty that the salaries aren't higher, the equipment is not up to date, and so little is spent on training. With so many houses that have sold for an excess of a million dollars and the reported business growth, you would expect the city to expand its spending on infrastructure and emergency personnel.
Increased spending is not only important to address deficiencies, but also to keep up with the growth in population and big box stores. In addition, the cost of living (particularly housing) has gone up so much that salaries don't go as far. I can't imagine how miserable it is to fight fires in polyester uniforms and get back into trucks with no AC. Thank goodness you guys are dedicated, but you deserve so much more.
It's also important for leadership to embrace continuous improvement. Think of the Blue Angels, some of the most talented and dedicated pilots in the world. They still review their tapes and analyze each performance to see if they can do it better next time. Like any accountable organization, the city must be willing to analyze its policies and spending before the next disaster.
I am so sad to see that the city undervalues its dedicated, professional, and brave firefighters. It's time for the people of Charleston to speak up.
F7
August 17, 2007 at 6:34 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Welcome to the wonderful South FiddlerCrab...years behind the times in nearly every facet of life...the plus? We have the Beaches and warm weather!
August 17, 2007 at 9:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
WardLaFrance (anonymous) says...
I know what I think but I have a few questions for you all:
1. What changes should be made immediately which involve no expenditure of funds, ie: requiring all personnel on the fireground to be completely dressed out and
2. What is the most important, top priority item that would involve funding?
August 17, 2007 at 11:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
You mean barring them implementing ALL of the recommendations? I can't really see anything that SHOULD be held off...I could be ignorant here, but does it really cost that much if anything to implement the ICS and related issues?
In a list this so complete, how do you pick and choose these items?
August 17, 2007 at 11:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
huntress87 (anonymous) says...
Don't forget to be @ the meeting on TUES.. MAKE our VOICES heard.. PLEASE.. PLEASE..PLEASE...
August 18, 2007 at 4:38 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
With bells on!!!
August 19, 2007 at 11:17 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
upstatefireman (anonymous) says...
you know i sit here and read most of your comments and this its about time and the truth comes out bull crap isnt anything more than that. im a firefighter myself in the upstate and that stuff about answer sheets being passed around goes on EVERYWHERE!!! is it right? NO but that don't make those -9- men any less of a hero. this nims test is just another way to do someting we all have been trained in more than once. there are so many differant command classes out there and they are all the same with a little differance here and there. this nims school that is done on the computer, set up by fema we all have to have it so the department can be in the running for grant money or thats what i was told when i took my test if were going to pick the CFD's training apart you should do them all and have one academy for everyone in the state and ALL department should use it. those nine heros are not any less than that because of a mistake that happens out of their controle we shouldnt forget that they are heros.
August 19, 2007 at 3:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
east3 (anonymous) says...
WardLaFrance
For the record I support every recommendation the panel made. My answers to your two questions:
1) Fire Academy training for the chiefs in Incident command.
Virtually free. At NFA you just pay for the meal ticket.
Take the booster reels off and sell them. Keep a few for brush trucks. Mount one in each engine house for washing the 5" hose.
Staging. RIT. Accountability and PAR. Fixed Command Post.
Increased response levels.
Radio discipline.
Many of the recommendations are a matter of writing orders and training in what they mean and doing it. Most are simple concepts that just have be put into action by people who believe in their importance.
2) 5" hose. Skip 4" and go directly to 5". Later replace the remaining 2.5" w/ 3" for master streams (Blitzfires or Mercurys) and dual supply lines. But the answer is 5" hose in 100' sections. It is as easy to lay out as 2.5", carries 4-5 times the amount of water over twice the distance, and you just reload it - no drying. How many calls were there for more water? It should not have been a problem. They didn't need more pressure - they needed bigger supply lines. Cost is probably less than $150,000 for all engines.
August 21, 2007 at 12:56 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
BattChiefNCFD (anonymous) says...
WardLaFrance,
The top priority involving funding would have to be staffing. This issue is not reserved for CFD only. Quite the contrary. If a poll were taken, you'd find that quite possibly every department in the Tri-County area is understaffed. A recent study was conducted in my department to determine the number and cost for manning each piece of apparatus with 4 man crews daily. I believe it was 3.5 million (could have been more). So you see, this is quite a pill to swallow. The problem occurs because the #1 cost in any budget is salaries and benefits. The cost to bring on a firefighter @ NCFD is well over $50,000.00; this includes salary, benefits, uniforms, gear, etc. This is just for a firefighter's position. As the positions increase, so do the costs. This is something that will have to come from the citizens themselves. If they don't put pressure on their council members and mayors, then they will continue to roll the dice instead of biting the bullet & raising taxes to UPDATE their departments to the standards that are needed. That was the biggest arguement by city managers when NFPA 1710 was being discussed. In fact, many city managers were forcing their fire chief's to vote against it because they are afraid of the costs involved in meeting this standard. But, their saving grace is this: NFPA Standards DO NOT have to be adopted. Au Contray, Mon'fraeir (wasn't too good in French) see many departments adopt NFPA standards and use them as their departmental benchmarks, but the ones they deem too expensive, not necessary, or too difficult to implement, they don't bother adopting. I stated in another post, the problem with this is: if a tragedy such as SSS occurs, the department is judged on the basis of the current national standard . . . NFPA. So, that's why you see so many LODD reports stating that one of the main reasons for an LODD, was lack of manpower. You'd think they would get it, but it's not their lives their playing with.
Chief V
August 21, 2007 at 8:47 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hardsuction (anonymous) says...
they probably save 6000 a year by keeping us in our non air conditioned trucks while we go drilling in the hot summer. as far as the money spent on training goes though, we would have an extra 200,000 in our budget if the shop that rusties daddie insisted on keeping and manning so he could hold a chiefs position a captains position and two firefighters positions. I think o donald will take care of that and let the city garage take care of our trucks. part of our training used to be how to drive to a call and not let the brakes heat up. gear primers left when the macks did and the rungs are not tested at 2000 pounds. one other lesson i learned from you. train station 3 people spraying you with 2 1/2 lines while you posed for a photo op 20 feet closer to the fire. hahaha and cotton bails should not be broken apart. the firefighters from the pre thomas days tought me to poke drop ceilings with the pike poles if the support posts are more than 20 feet apart. I dont care how it was done in the old days. lets learn from our mistakes boosters do work well in a confined space but you can eat them fast in a large room. instad of shriver and jenkins scaring people into the petty bs in the sop rotate your men and let some seasoned captains train the men. east side isnt everything. you have totally alianated your best firefighters to the slow companies and your new firefighters dont listen to them because they hear you all talk sh// about them.
August 25, 2007 at 12:03 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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