Anguish, courage

Posted by huntress87 on August 11, 2007 at 2:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

u think this is going to cause more problems.. YOU think.. The fact that part of the FF did not get a chance to hear the tapes is nothing. We are talking about a situation that is nothing but emotional.

Posted by underdog on August 11, 2007 at 8:03 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Thanks to the reporters covering this story, as it adds even more to this tragic/heroic event.

Regardless of what the FF union thinks, they can't stop the process of a FOIA request. I think the city did the responsible thing by holding a private screening for families. I hope the families were better off hearing about it there than from the press.

I know that every time I see a fire truck I think of this event and wish them well, and I hope the families still realize that most of the folks around here feel the same way.

Posted by FF2172 on August 11, 2007 at 8:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Whoever the webmaster is that setup the audio links need to be fired. I have only been successful getting one link to play. Quicktime is the worst player on the web.

Posted by poorboy on August 11, 2007 at 9:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Still amazing to me that 9 men lost their lives on that horrible day. I cannot understand one thing, why are roads not cut off when the fire fighters hose lines are ran? Why is it that people are allowed to drive by??? Or IS this personnel, trucks on the secene doing this? Any firemem that can offer an explanation? Northwoods Assembly burned to the ground and that was a complaint by fire fighters on the ground.

Posted by UberBlitzkrieg on August 11, 2007 at 9:39 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Wav files of the tapes are at www.sconfire.com

Much easier to listen to.

Posted by truthseeker on August 11, 2007 at 10:07 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The city and the newspaper did the right thing. The tapes are public and should be released -=even though it is emotional - we do live in an open society.

Posted by ageconjon on August 11, 2007 at 10:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The article on Saturday about the firefighters calls
being released was definitely a difficult article to
write and I am sure that much careful thought went
into it. However, it was clearly ruined by the
unbelievably distasteful full page advertisement that
appeared directly after the conclusion of the article.
I cannot believe that a SOFA SUPER STORE "Summer Sale"
ad was placed adjacent to such a sensitive piece. My
question is, WHAT WERE YOU THINKING?!

I feel for the firefighters, friends and family and
for the Sofa Super Store which has done it best to be
respectful of the situation. Someone should have to
answer some serious questions about Post and Courier's
choice of placement of this advertisement.

Posted by robeweise on August 11, 2007 at 10:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey poorboy, I was eating at Red Lobster when the fire started. I live down Savannah Highway by Farmfield. When we came home they had the highway blocked off in front of Dupont down past Wappoo. I'd say this was maby 20 minutes or so into the fire. I can't tell you exactly when they blocked off the street but I'm sure they didn't wait too long.

Posted by vesta on August 11, 2007 at 10:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

As I posted on the site yesterday, note the line: "Riley acknowledged the importance of the tapes to the public's understanding of the fires and efforts to PREVENT similar tragedies. PREVENT is the operative word meaning to study the situation and correct mistakes so that it won't happen in the future. Gosh, Mayor Riley, your initial statements after the fire, was that everything was handled correctly by a top notch ISO 1 fire department. Change your mind, did you??? Gee, I wonder why?????

Posted by paulleah on August 11, 2007 at 11:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The audio files on Charleston.net are all in MP3 format. Despite the note saying you need Quicktime, any computer that has MP3 capability will work fine.

If you are having problems listening to the audio, it may be because of the overwhelming demand for the files.

We regret any confusion that may have caused.

--Admin

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 11, 2007 at 11:53 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Although I believe lack of command and control was a major issue at this fire, those of you that are not firefighters listening to these recordings need to understand something.
Communications are always difficult at the best of times at a fire scene. The radios are being operated in a hostile environment, most of the time with the operator trying to talk through a breathing apparatus mask. You may also not understand some of the firefighters short forms, codes or jargon which are used. Just be aware the communications difficulties are the scourge of pretty well all of the fire service, not just Charleston!
As far as the content, that's something different!

Posted by gmarshall on August 11, 2007 at 12:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

re: soundfiles/quality

all SCONFIRE.COM have done are:

1) Linked back to the Charleston.net audio clips
2) Download each MP3 file from Charleston.net (they're in a generic MP3 format, not quicktime), converted it to WAV and put it on their own site.

therefore - the audio quality is exactly same, mainly due to the fact that it's the same file. if anything, the WAV's will take longer to stream/download because an MP3 is roughly the tenth of the size of a WAV.

Posted by nickolas on August 11, 2007 at 1:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I thought it was very poor judgement to have the Super Sofa Store Sale Ad in the newspaper on the next page after the story honoring these brave firefighters. When you open the paper to page 4A you also can't help but see the large full page Super Sofa Sale Ad on page 5A. These two pages should have never been displayed together. Sorry Post & Courier you sure messed this up. I believe you should print an apology for this poor judgement.

Posted by donnasharon26 on August 11, 2007 at 2:06 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Of course these firefighters went thru training on how to use proper etiquette and transmissions. However, when you are in a situation like that one, it all goes out of the window. At that moment all you are thinking about is your life. At this point let the family greive. And stop posting negative comments. Unfortunatley, a tragedy like this has to happen in order for someone the realize that changeed need to be made.

Posted by carolinabeachgirl on August 11, 2007 at 2:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I think that the Post & Courier lacked a great deal of class and consideration when they placed the full page Sofa Super Store ad next to this story.

Posted by seenit on August 11, 2007 at 4:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This is a classic newspaper gotcha. The news department is separate from the ad department. They don't necessary coordinate their activities. Thus the occasional off-putting juxtaposition.

Posted by east4 on August 11, 2007 at 4:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The only thing we are taught about the radios as firefighters is do not use them unless necessary. As you move up in rank the only training you have is watching what the officer you are working for does. There is no formal training on radio etiquette. And that is just the tip of the ice berg.

Posted by A911Chick on August 11, 2007 at 5:17 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Offering the families the chance to hear the tapes is one thing, but unfortunately the general publics need to be entertained is just ghoulish. How would you feel if your loved one was lost in a tragedy, their last words being debated the masses? Enough is enough. Maybe Paris or Nicole will get arrest for drunk driving again, that's always BIG news.

Posted by BattChiefNCFD on August 11, 2007 at 7:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To: A911Chick
While I agree that some people who listen to the tapes will do so in order to feed a sick need within themselves. Many people who listen are fellow firefighters. We want to listen to the tapes to get an understanding of exactly what went on during the fire in order to establish a time line for actions taking place on-scene. So from that perspective, it is very important for the tapes to be heard. Unfortunately, many of the things on the tapes could potentially add additional fuel to the current debates ongoing. While I have refrained from posting any comments on this and many other sights, it is my feeling that no one but our brothers from CFD should be making comments about what went on, changes that need to be made, and the feelings both positive as well as negative towards the fire department administration and the city administration until after the official report has been published. While many of my brother firefighters (myself included) certainly have questions and comments concerning this fire, I feel they should be directed to CFD brothers privately, and not aired in an open format as the message boards being found on the net. I do agree that as a result of this terrible tragedy, many changes should be made, but not only within the CFD, but in all fire departments within the Tri-County Area, as well as across the US. For EVERY department within the US to not take this incident and learn from it would without a doubt do a disservice to the 9 brothers who perished, and in my opinion would make their sacrifice in vain.

Joseph A. Varella
Battalion Chief
North Charleston Fire Department

Posted by FF40212 on August 11, 2007 at 7:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I agree with you 100% Chief Varella.

Thank you.

Posted by Radiowave on August 11, 2007 at 8:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I also agree with Chief Varella and praise him for clearly identifying himself. It's a bit self serving to say that the public has some inherent right to express their opinion to a professional civil servant because "we pay your salaries." The armchair fire chiefs need to sit down and be quiet. Let's wait until the experts release their findings and then we can come together as a community to move forward and best implement their recommendations.

I listened to the tapes to help me understand the sacrifice of these incredibly brave firefighters - I cried when I heard the mayday and then the call to Chief Thomas to "tell my wife I love her." This is an important part of healing our community, and yes, they deserve every penny we pay them.

John - James Island

Posted by kab1976 on August 11, 2007 at 9:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

While I feel that the public has a right to know things, we don't need to know EVERYTHING. Chief Varella is right in saying that the tapes should be used for investigational purposes and for the families' closure, and not for the public's and the media's constant analyzation.

And speaking of, I do realize and I do honor these 9 fallen firefighters as heroes, but I wonder and have to ask...why are they only heroes AFTER they have passed? Why are the firefighters, policemen and military not honored as heroes within the community and in the media spotlight EVERYDAY? Why does it take a tragedy like this to bring the special things they do to light? Why do we not share a fireman's story, or tell of day in the life of a policeman on the news everyday? Why not Post & Courier??

Posted by vesta on August 11, 2007 at 9:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

kab1976: If you have read all of the comment sites after all of the articles have appeared about the SSS fire and all of the related material, you would know that almost all of us view all ffs (not just the brave nine who died) as heroes. That is why we are taking our time to ask specific questions about this fire; that is why many of us have written to the mayor and city council and asked for a review panel; that is why we have written to the mayor and city council asking for progressive changes in the CFD. Many who post on this site are ffs (retired or current) and they listened to these tapes and thought it sounded like total chaos. Those ffs who did NOT die in that fire are also heroes. But what is most important is that we want them to go on living long, productive lives. As posted before, ffs (or any one else) do not have to die to be heroes. Nine men died in that fire....that is not normal. I don't know about you, but I want LIVE heroes, not dead ones.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 11, 2007 at 10:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

With all due respect to you, Chief Varella and to others that agree with your opinion (I agree with some of your points as well and respect your opinion), this forum has been a much needed outlet for many members of the fire service from the CFD (and others across the country) that could not speak out for fear of retribution. Many citizens, such as myself are concerned about this tragedy and wondered how something like this could happen. Unfortunately, we don't really have to wait on the official reports now do we? Even the lay person can read the stories, watch the videos and listen to the news to see that something very bad is happening with the leadership and training in this department and we are concerned enough to want to be heard loud and clear so that another tragedy does not take place in this fire department while we are waiting on the "Official reports".

Posted by Radiowave on August 11, 2007 at 10:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To paraphrase the late Senator Patrick Moynihan - everyone is entitled to their own opinion, no one is entitled to their own facts. I am a former FF and seeing the the pictures, videos and now the radio tapes I have an opinion, but no substantial factual basis to support it. I never said for the public to be silent (as the post above claims), only not to confuse facts for speculation. I'll wait for the experts and science to guide how best to change.

The public bears some responsibility in this tragedy. If you listen carefully to the tapes you'll hear radio transmissions that cars were running over charged fire hoses and at least one distracting 911 caller. Perhaps we should look at ourselves first - the general public, to see how we can do better during emergencies (my opinion of course).

Posted by jeffyoung007 on August 11, 2007 at 10:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Tape 1 was very hard to listen to, opened up a closed wound. Could things have been done differently, possibly. Is there blame to place, no. We need to learn and grow from the lessons our fallen brothers taught us.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 11, 2007 at 10:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Radiowave, as a former FF such as yourself, how can you not have a "substantial factual basis" to support your own opinion. If you received proper training and education as a FF, I would think you could look at alot of things that went wrong and know for a "fact" that many things were done improperly!

I do agree with you that the public could do better during emergencies...I see people that refuse to pull over out of the way of emergency vehicles nearly everyday! But again, didn't they have the road blocked off? Isn't that the responsibility of the police department to be sure that is done? Not trying to argue with you, just stating my opinion!

Posted by MJLowery on August 11, 2007 at 11:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I respect the view of Chief Varella, and sincerely thank you for what you and other fellow firefighters do to protect us. I knew Mulkey personally and found it very sad to hear Chief Thomas repeatedly call out for him.

However, I must agree with Harpo as well. Much insight can be gained from the thoughts and ideas of citizens outside the fire department. An "outside" perspective can be both helpful and welcome, so long as it is contributed tactfully and with respect to a fireman's expertise and experience.

Posted by donnasharon26 on August 11, 2007 at 11:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

To:Harpo
Since you have some much expertise, why dont your VOLUNTEER your time to teach the fire fighters the way you said it should be done. Why dont you lay off of the critisim a little. You seem to be a cold hearted person who is so bored that all have to do is blog every newspaper article. Why dont you just lay off a little, sit back and put yourself in those guys shoes or even the family members. If I was a family member of one of the FF's, my heart would actually break into millions of pieces to see the way that the comments are being posted. Especially from you, who apparently doesnt have a life.

If family members of the Fallen Fire Fighters are reading these blogs, please excuse some of the Folks who are showing any sympathy from this tragedy. May the memories held deep within your heart help soothe your soul at your time of need.

Posted by NN on August 11, 2007 at 11:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

No one is forcing anyone to "listen to the tapes". If you want to hear them, click on them. If you don't, then leave the website and STFU.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 11, 2007 at 11:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

NN,

Shut up. For once in your pathetic site hopping life, SHUT UP when it is finally appropriate. No one on this board is interested in your Jerry Springer crap. Save it for some other page. NOT this one. Have some respect. What next? How about bashing another ex-wife of the fallen, or better yet, why not the girlfriend left behind....you are pathetic, pathetic dark soul.

Donna: you aren't a family member, and you don't see the amount of mail and the phone calls I have personally received to keep this in the forefront. I could call on the men left behind from inside the department to vouch for that, but I think they have earned their silence for the time being. If they didn't want this out, they wouldn't speak through us. It isn't going away-THEY don't want it to.

Opinions are to be respected, that means even those of us who fight to keep this in the public.

Posted by jimbo200 on August 12, 2007 at 12:34 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Just to let every one whos close to this know what there in for.

My dept had 2 members die in a training fire several years ago. I had to listen to tapes, watch a video every time there was questioning. Then they finally finished the investigation and put out several NIOSH reports about it.

Finally got some closure after alittle time but it seems any time I take a tactics, training, or any other live fire classes they bring up the incident. Had a freind go to FDIC and guess what they were giving a seminar on?? We decided on day to GOOGLE our crews names for craps and ha ha's and apparnetly mine brings up a report that Colorado Fire camp published! I live in FL!!!

Just wanted to let you know that these tapes are just the beginning. Its easy to be mad at every thing that comes out and you'll just want to have every one leave it be and let it go. the plus side is that they will investigate everything, they will report every thing which is hard but we will learn a wealth of information to try to prevent it from happening again. In the last 5 years my Dept has grown in leaps and bounds as far as safety and communications go. Our response guidlines and manpower has been increased, every one has recieved great hands on RIT operations.

Wish I had some thing smart and motivational to end with but that aint my style. Our prayers are with the fallen brothers and their families.

Posted by brendabelanger on August 12, 2007 at 12:46 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I am from Charleston, SC - a graduate of Middleton High School - though I have resided in Florida these past 10 years. This tragedy has touched former classmates, friends, and the community in general and it has reached at least as far as Lutz, FL as well.

The tapes, the issues, the hoses, the radios...please keep in mind we lost friends and family here. That is what we need to focus on. We lost friends and family. We lost our firefighters. And though I now reside 8 hours away, I mourn the loss of those firefighters - and I mourn for their families.

May these brave souls rest in peace. And may God be with their families now and always.

Posted by eparnell on August 12, 2007 at 12:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Won't someone please give Harpo the $0.25 he/she contributes to a firefighters' salary. Better yet Harpo, why don't you take a physical, pass the exams, gear up, pack out and come fight some fire. If you aren't in the fire service and in a position to effect change, then no, you have no right to express an opinion into what should and shouldn't be done. The only right you have is to express your opinion in the voter's booth during the next election, and the Fire Chief is appointed, so you'll have to go after the mayor.

Posted by Radiowave on August 12, 2007 at 1:17 a.m. (Suggest removal)

charleytowngirl – I do respect your opinion and everyone else here and other boards discussing this tragedy. I disagree with your comment “If you received proper training and education as a FF, I would think you could look at a lot of things that went wrong and know for a "fact" that many things were done improperly!” Let me give an example, when I viewed the video of the fire and saw the booster lines (red rubber hoses to fight small trash fires) in front of the store I though (based on my training) why on earth are they using that hose on this fire? The P&C ran a story on July 15 with this opening: “When photos and video footage of the June 18 Sofa Super Store fire beamed around the world, some firefighters and fire safety experts were troubled by what they saw: small red hoses snaking through the front door of the burning furniture store.” Yet when I listened to the radio tapes this afternoon, it is clear that Chief Gavin ordered an initial “inch and a half line” into the store then soon after a “two and a half line”. The audio tape contradicts the video/photo evidence. The district fire chief from Dayton felt compelled to give his opinion about the booster lines however, “he was shocked to see them at the scene of the fire.” I respect his right to express his opinion as well, but it’s not helpful at this point until we know how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together. Taking one isolated photo/video/audio clip of the fire out of context, without any sense of the sequence of events before/after, without knowing who made the decisions, when, how, etc. and then putting that under a microscope is counter productive.

Posted by jimbo200 on August 12, 2007 at 1:25 a.m. (Suggest removal)

The first thing serious posters on this site need to do is quit commenting back to HARPO.

He is obviously a not a fire fighter commenting on things that he does not know about. IF he served in the NAVY and could extinguish a electric panel box fire with great ease good for him!

Fire scenes are far different from operating on a boat. My dept has the most updated radios and we are all trained on how to properly use them. The problem comes when they are being used on a fire scene, our trucks are very loud when operating. You place several trucks together and you cant hear a thing, thats were the yelling comes from, not being untrained. We critique all of our calls and still have a hard time hearing request and commands. Our department policy states that when we are operating the engine for morning check out that we wear ear plugs due to the high decibel that they make.

Hopefully Harpo ives in the tax area for the dept that lost the men so when they try to raise fire taxes he can right them a check. Every one wants better service but no one wants to come off cash to fund it.

As far as the Harpo is concerned he seems to be a angry egotistical person that likes to here him self talk, by arguing back with him your just fluffing the EGO. He should be ashamed to even attempt to comment back to Chief Varella, that last thing that any one tied to the Dept needs is a non fire educated person mouthing off Im sure his plate is full.

Whether posting the audio tapes is right or wrong all the preschool arguing and bickering here is only drwing attention away from the tragedy.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 12, 2007 at 1:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Sounds like a plan eparnell.First the mayor,then? Sky is the limit.The point it, transparency is a useful tool in maintaining a truthful government, on any level. There is nothing pleasant about those tapes, but a wealth of information is to be learned, by the CFD,CPD,and the citizens.Lesson to citizens? Status quo is no longer OK.For people inside the fire service, etc. to want to keep these things from the public, you somehow seem to want to place yourselves at a level of un-accountability.I am certain this is not the image or impression you want to make, but it is the appearance nonetheless.There is no enjoyment in those tapes. I knew who some of those men were, and it is the most difficult thing I have ever listened to. The tape from 7-8, I cannot complete. I stayed up all night last night sobbing, angry, disturbed, angrier, horrified, and dismayed. Some of my initial view points were not necessarily accurate, others were dead on. What did I learn from them? That there is much room for improvement, but that it is well beyond JUST the CFD.Everyone is trying to make sense of this tragedy, from the most experienced firefighter to the citizens. Working together to make a difference in memory of these men is what needs to be done.Our politics will come in the booths.Mr. Parnell, we DO have the right, same as you.EVERYONE has that right under the FOIA.People,you are not listening. WE ARE BEING ASKED BY INSIDE FIREFIGHTERS to help bring about effective change. Some of us are receiving information that we are being asked to post FOR them, because they cannot speak for themselves. What does that tell you? That this local government isn't necessarily interested in the truth, that people from within the fire department don't want things to come out,and for us to close our eyes and ears and ignore the tragedy would potentially allow them to sweep it under the rug. The investigation will deal with THIS fire,but it won't deal with the lack of protection to the men inside when practice and procedures aren't followed.Once they release their reports,they go home.Who monitors whether or not those recommendations are implemented?I am hardly expert in this field. When I post technical information, SOME of it is my own common sense, MOST of it is passed to me from inside-nope,not armchair quarterbacking after all.I'm sorry if what I feel or say is offensive to some of you. I made a promise-to firefighters, to family members, and I don't intend to go away, nor should you ask any of us to. You cannot cry on one hand that you want support from citizens, and in the next breath tell us to go away. We vote for your budgets, guys,you need us as much as we need you.With all of that said...Even with members of my own family in the local departments, I have found an even greater respect for what you do, the issues you have to deal with, and a larger sense of pride knowing that I am related to, and friends with people in the greatest brotherhood ever.

Posted by WFD_OHIO on August 12, 2007 at 2:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I would like to say just one thing.....Those Nine brothers of mine died in the line of duty. They died doing the job that we all love, and a job most civilians admire and admit they would never do. Those Nine firefighters died as heros. Everyone can go on and on and on about communication problems on the radio. Thats fine. It's the reality of things. Communications is always a problem. But PLEASE, DO NOT post comments on this page mocking these men. If some people forget, they saved another life. One thing i have learned from firefighters committing the ultimate sacrifice is that you take what has been provided, use it as tools to train within your department, and get on the truck and put it to use. You do it for the men that lost their lives.

THE "CHARLESTON 9" WILL NEVER BE FORGOTTEN.

To Charleston fire WFD local 204 would like express our deepest sympathy. I can't imagine losing 9 of my guys nor can i imagine the sorrow that has come with the tragedy.

God Bless and Be safe

Posted by BillyTheKid32 on August 12, 2007 at 3:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Joe is who he is. Nothing can change that except your vote. He is the chairman of the CWP who put in the "impact fees" that keeps buildings like the Sofa Super Store from not only having to be required to have a sprinkler system in place, but giving them an out when there was not one there.
The P&C had a story about what happened to a store in Florida, that had a sprinkler system, and the total damage was $8,000.
Joe was busy looking at the big picture to get the maximum buck for his ballpark or his other bet projects.
He should feel some guilt for what had happen and if he was a true leader he would be going through the Low Country looking to solve the problem that is still out there in large buildings.
Do you need a map?

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 12, 2007 at 8:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Radiowave, thank you for your response to my comment. I now have a better understanding of your initial comment and why you say you did not have substantial facts to back up your opinion. Good example you used. This round goes to you :)

Lisa

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 12, 2007 at 9:23 a.m. (Suggest removal)

WFD,

While in principle, you are correct-these men died doing a job they loved, but once again, the time line of events speak to the contrary of their purpose inside. I admire so much the determination of firefighters...they DO perform a job that some of us did not choose. Yes, they were heroes, but the question has been and will continue to be, did they have to die at all? I don't understand that mentality-not an insult...Why do you all think that just because you strap boots and helmets on, that you have resigned yourselves to certain death? Why can't you people see that we are angry FOR you...the conditions you are forced to work in, the lack of administrative support, inadequate leadership, a failed system of communications?

Help me to understand your views while reviewing the facts here: St. Andrews men were in the rear of the building(OUTSIDE) freeing the man trapped in the room. That is the only way in and out. He was the only trapped person in that building, and from other sources in the CFD, MOST of the people on scene knew it. So...again, WHY did they have to go in? Also, by the time line, the man trapped was freed some 12 to 15 minutes BEFORE the flashover and collapse...he was safe, their job inside could have been done...there were SIXTEEN men inside that building...by that time, some were already lost...no RIT in place to go get them while they still had a chance...By the A/C's own admission, those men were inside FOR INVESTIGATIVE PURPOSES, NOT to actively participate in the rescue...

PLEASE PLEASE someone explain this away for me...they were heroes BEFORE they died, but they became victims...WHY?

Posted by eparnell on August 12, 2007 at 10:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm sure that when the reports from NIOSH, and other expert groups are released, it will be obvious what was done incorrectly and what are some things that desperately need immediate change. These people are experts and have done some research into what happened instead of just what they read in the paper and see on TV. So for us/you to even express what you think you know, is a slap in the face for the 9 of my brothers that died that day. Yes there needs to be changes, but lets see which areas need it the most when the reports come out.

Posted by WFD_OHIO on August 12, 2007 at 1:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nickie i respect your comment and your anger for us. But no one forces a firefighter to their job. When people enter the fire service you take an oath. It's an oath to protect the life and property of your fellow man. It's simple. Thats what we do.

I hope that the Charleston fire department gets a break from the outsiders perspectives. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but there is a point when the subject at hand is a sensitive one. This is one of those times that the critiques at this point should be left to the professionals. CFD does not need the comments from others to fix problems. I am pretty sure that CFD has had a critique of the incident and brought up all of the points you are. lay off them for a while.

Posted by NIMS800Chief on August 12, 2007 at 2:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

WFD_Ohio I beg to differ with you and disagree with your comments. If this was left to mayor Riley and Chief Thomas, I fear the time honored traditions will continue. What critique? I am sure it is yet to begin the meat and potatoes of it and rightfully so in order to allow a mourning process and let nerves calm down in preparation of interviews by the investigation team.

You seem to miss one point. 9 heroes perished in the line of duty during the time when the United States Fire Administration, IAFF, IAFC and local departments across this nation are focussing in a campaign for more firefighter safety. I agree they knew that they may give up their lives since this is what we signed up for as that remote possibility. Those 9 valiant heroes and those who worked with them are not to be impugned for their bravery. I too heard their last transmissions and wept for those brave souls. I felt the anguish in Chief Thomas's voice.

I for one will not stay quiet since I have seen enough video and audio to form some form of common sense that CFD and perhaps more departments need to step up their A Game! It is incumbent that when a firefighter dies on the line of duty, it is investigated internal and external to find out what went wrong, what broke, what needs fixing, and how we evaluate it for improvement. We need the outside professionals to come in an audit every piece of information, interview all who were there, view all videos and listen to all audios on this fire. Even when a firefighter dies of a heart attack in the firehouse, such as were in my case back in 2003, we were investigated internal and external to see if we knew current or past health issues, annual fitness and health screening, what training or fire service duties were performed at or prior to his untimely death. I welcomed the outside investigations and we opened our records to them.

Oh CFD will get comments so it can get fixed. What...do you think we are amateurs? We as firefighters are known for critiques albeit internal and in case external also called "networking" so we all find ways to improve and move on. Sadly it will take outsiders to fix what has been broken for a long time. I go back to the comment that their command policies are "rich in tradition" so I should back off? ICS is always improved on. I believe CFD's Bravest deserve the best and will prove to be a better department that will stand up to the challenge and relish in the opprtunities.

Posted by BattChiefNCFD on August 12, 2007 at 3:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

In reference to my earlier post; I probably did not state clearly what was going through my mind as I typed the comment. I do not in any way begrudge any person from posting on this or any other message board. My comment was mainly directed to firefighters within the Tri-County area. When I said,

"it is my feeling that no one but our brothers
from CFD should be making comments about what
went on, changes that need to be made, and the
feelings both positive as well as negative
towards the fire department administration
and the city administration until after the
official report has been published. While many
of my brother firefighters (myself included)
certainly have questions and comments concerning
this fire, I feel they should be directed to CFD
brothers privately, and not aired in an open
format as the message boards being found on the
net."

the comments were directed toward my fellow area firefighters. Once we begin to openly question and criticize the actions taken by our brothers at CFD, we leave ourselves open for this same criticism. While it has been mentioned previously years ago many of the area departments posted on a local message board and busted alot of B*LLS with the guys from the area departments. This was all well and good for banter and at times, it was down right ugly. But for the guys in the Tri-County area to comment one way or the other about the actions taken by CFD in my opinion is irresponsible. In my opinion, it's not our place to answer on the actions taken by CFD on scene that evening. Firefighters across the US and John Q. Public certainly have a lot of questions from videos, articles, and posts; their questions should be answered by the guys in CFD and only them. If guys from the Tri-County area have questions or comments, they should direct them to the brothers at CFD privately. This way, no one can be accused of having an axe to grind or be accused of bashing Charleston. Because no matter if we want to admit it or not; we all have our own problems. That's why it is imperative for us to learn from this incident, and insure it never happens again. I hope this brings a little clarification to my earlier post. I am available for question or comment any time.

Sincerely,
Joseph A. Varella

Posted by Fire_Inspector on August 12, 2007 at 5:09 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Don't they have ANYTHING preplanned?

1) No extra alarms, each call for reinforcements is for specific units. Give me the closest engine...

2) St Andrews seems to be the only FD unit there that wasn't screaming and panicked.

3) Cheif Rusty seems to spend all his time screaming.

4) 200 pounds on a SINGEL 2.5 inch supply line? What about laying a double lines? I know little podunk VFDs that lay multiple lines. Or LDH.

5) $6000 a year for training? What is that, Rusty making a junket to Baltimore?

6) There is NO reason for the personal warning devices to be tweeting endlessly for 30 plus minutes.

7) WTF is up with that dispactcher? Sweety, lover, etc? VEry unprofessional.

8) Lots of calls "Battallion 4 to Captain smith." WTF?

9)

Posted by fyrmnjim on August 12, 2007 at 5:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

What I find equally atrocious is the way they handled the families of the fallen. Told them to go to Co 11 and then did not have a representative there for them with answers. Also not having any means to address all the media inquires that came in all night. No PIO????

I felt real sorry for disp #7. She did the best she could given the limited information given to her.

Posted by Yolie on August 12, 2007 at 5:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

This tradgedy is unfortunate for everyone involved. It is so easy to sit back and point the finger at one another. The fact is we cannot bring thses heroes back.

If we all sit back and think about this whole situation we may not be so judgemental. We as a nation have suffered so many horrifc tradgedies. After every single one of them we sit back and point the finger at who is the blame. This is a natural reaction. However, those of you that have never worked as part of the police,fire, emergency,military or any organization that saves lives or put their lives on the line truly don't understand.

Any person that is in a leadership position carries the weight of the world on their shoulders. One of the most important characteristics of a leader is to be able to make a decision in a split second. Guess what people? The decision may not always be the correct one, but it has to be done. We can all sit back and speculate on what we would have done, but NOONE truly knows what they would do in that type of situation. These men worked for the fire department so I'm sure they all knew that they could lose their lives doing the job that they loved. If my house was on fire, I wouldn't be standing outside checking the credentials of emergency personnel......I served 11 yrs in the military and I know what it means to make a decision and stick by the choice I made. You all must remember that these heroes have had to make quick decisions themselves a at some point during a fire and it worked out. But I'll bet if any of them were here now they would probably tell you that they would have made the same choices the Chief had to make during the fatal fire.

Posted by fyrmnjim on August 12, 2007 at 6:12 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yolie, Tell me your kidding!

Yes, we are always looking for some expplaination when a tragedy occurs. But, only an extreme narcossist would say he would do the same thing over again after having 9 men die under his watch.

Have you ever heard the saying : if you can't take the heat....? Well, how about this saying: If you can't cook, you have no buisness being the head chef...or chief!!!!

After all that I have read, heard, and seen I'm convinced that the CFD is stuck in the 1970's both mentally and technologically.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 12, 2007 at 8:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Mr. Parnell,

You have NO idea what is in my mind and what my motivations are. For you to claim I am slapping the face of the fallen, you can't be further from the truth.

In fact, I feel quite the opposite..men like you, who want those of us advocating for the truth and for change, are the one's slapping these poor men in the face. I think they would WANT the truth out, to fix it..to protect their brothers left behind EVERYWHERE.

You have no idea what research I have or have not completed (and I have done a lot-still a lot more to do). I clarify my views, verify them for accuracy, and yes, while I occasionally make a mistake-mostly terminology-I know what the hell I am saying.

I am not an idiot, Mr. Parnell. I am very well educated, have the capacity to read the same NIMS course that it seems CFD allows to be cheated on...Yes, Mr. Parnell, I am in the middle of taking NIMS myself...to better educate MYSELF to the causes, the issues you face, and to better give myself an idea of HOW to fix them through demands to city council and the mayors office.

What I am doing is demanding answers from the Chief, the Mayor, City Council...they owe these men's families , their brothers, and the community an explanation. If you find what we are doing offensive, then you aren't listening to what we are saying...

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 12, 2007 at 8:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

WFD,

You are correct...you know there are risks to the job...BUT, that doesn't mean you aren't owed as much protection as feasible...example...Do you wear a helmet? Coat? Gloves? Boots? SCBA? Why? I mean, let's use your viewpoint for a moment...you KNOW when you join the FD you are taking a risk...why bother protecting yourselves at all?

BECAUSE we can! Simply...

Let's look at it another way....If we use your attitude(viewpoint), we run out of men willing to volunteer their lives...bluntly, and no offense intended: dead firefighters can't save anyone anymore...the goal? Keep you alive so we have people to rescue those in need.

Did that make any sense?

You are still heroes, you don't NEED to die to prove it..if we analyze ALL LODD's you will see that MOST (after cardiovascular disease related deaths) firefighter deaths (active, on scene incidents) are caused by mistakes made at some level at the scene, in policy, procedure, etc...the true purpose of reviewing these and other LODD's is to honor the men the best way we can:preventing more of the same. You call it a slap in the face, I call it protecting the lives of firefighters.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 12, 2007 at 9:02 p.m. (Suggest removal)

NimsChief and BattChief;

Thank you...please understand...I have no sick need to fill...I NEED to help prevent this from ever happening again. For my own sister, my cousin, my friends, and the men and women remaining in the fire service everywhere.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 12, 2007 at 9:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Fire Inspector,

I have been given information from within the department and families that pre-plan on buildings are done(at least this one within the last year), and not reviewed with firefighters...cannot confirm this, if someone inside has this information, please post or email so I can pass it on.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 12, 2007 at 9:29 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yolie: Here are your words from a post above, "If we all sit back and think about this whole situation we may not be so judgemental."

Did you think about your own words before you posted your comments to the ex-wife of one of these 9 men on another message board? Did you consider what SHE may be going through before you offered up your view point and your thoughts on her personal situation?

Just wondering........

Posted by Yolie on August 12, 2007 at 10:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

charleytowngirl- Yes I did think about what she was going through. I believe I made that clear in my submission. However, I felt as though she is an emotional state, and some of her feelings may have been overwhemingly biased.

I was not nasty and cruel towards her in no way, shape or form. I just wanted her to go back and read what she had said after she had some time to think about it.

By the way, She responded to me in a personal email and I got to see her viewpoint in a different light too. Thanks for your concern.......

Posted by s283r on August 12, 2007 at 11:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

My opinion of the audio tapes being released doesn't matter, the families wishes are the only thing that matters here! As for the opinions of how the fire was handled, that fire was fought by a TOP SHELF CLASS 1 ISO FIRE DEPARTMENT! How do I know this,because I worked for the Charleston Fire Department. I don't think an opinion much less a negative opinion from somebody that has no clue should be posted. Harpo, do you have a clue? No not Navy experience! What does serving in the Navy have to do with structural firefighting? For your information Harpo when a brother is lost in a burning building things tend to get intense on the radio no matter how professional you are, and yes your voice will tend to raise a bit. Let's be for real, do you think the fact that you fought a fire ONCE on a submarine entitles you to your opinion of how this fire was fought? Dont forget everytime you make those negative comments of how the CFD handled this fire you are disrespecting those 9 brothers because they are and always will be part of the CFD, and most of all you are disrespecting their families. STICK WITH SUBMARINES!!

SCOTT ROLAND

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 12, 2007 at 11:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yolie,

I bet you they wouldn't agree with your point that they would make the same decision...

Not if they had the information they needed, and weren't given...

They wanted to fight fires...they got a rush from it...most FF do...but they didn't want to die, and given the events and the facts, they would have chosen life, their friends, and most of all their families. That much I can assure you.

Posted by s283r on August 12, 2007 at 11:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

IF EVERYONE WITH THE NEGATIVE COMMENTS TRULY BELIEVES IN WHAT YOU ARE POSTING THEN SIGN YOUR FULL NAME!

SCOTT ROLAND

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 12, 2007 at 11:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

S283r,

OK, Genius...let's analyze...Navy experience with firefighting...what the hell happens when a ship or sub catches on fire? A HAZMAT nightmare, first off...a FIREFIGHTER'S nightmare second. The firepower held on both surface and Subs are enough to blow entire cities to kingdom come. I am ex Navy-active duty...I know...second, who supplies them with extra firefighting power when their fire is so bad? NO ONE...It's DO OR DIE. No extra hoses, no extra department hands...either put out the fire, or face sure death, either by fire, smoke, or water when you sink. Have you ever met men that survived a submarine fire? USS BONEFISH, 1988...I did. Their scars, their grief, etc. They lost two men that day and almost lost an entire crew...there is NO escaping a fire on board a ship or sub. Try fighting a structure fire standing on your knees in a space no bigger than your current closet...Don't pretend that civilian firefighters are the only one's who know anything. Military firefighters are the same brotherhood. Grow up, this isn't a competition between Military and Civilian firefighters.

For YOUR information, there are plenty of other departments out there that are subject to the freedom of information act, enabling their tapes to be heard by ANYONE. Shall we see what the tapes from Memphis and Hackensack sound like? Same situation, same bad outcome, AND THEY FOUND FAULT WITH DEPARTMENTAL PROCESSES...Let's listen...Jim, can you pull archives from Pat's LODD? Let's listen to Dayton Fire Department, shall we? How about Charlotte...anyone here from Charlotte? Wait...Better yet...Los Angeles...anyone? Bring it on guys...

It is the JOB of the senior officer on scene to have COMPLETE CONTROL of the scene. His radio, his dispatch, his responding trucks, his men on scene and off duty. If you cannot DO the job, don't TAKE the job. With that being said, things go wrong, no fire is by the book, but ACKNOWLEDGE the mistakes, and LEARN from them, NEVER repeat them. THIS department is refusing to do that unless WE force their hand.

Don't like it? TOUGH. You WERE CFD...you are not anymore. You made your choice, you left your brothers, so did your brother, Bruce, now WE are protecting them, Mr. Roland. We are much more intelligent than your average bear, Scott...You and your brother were Rusty Ranger's then, and apparently can't get past that. Save it. You didn't see the issues then, you won't see them now!

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 12, 2007 at 11:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

PS...I ALREADY SIGNED MY FULL NAME

I DONT WORK FOR RUSTY, SCOTT...I CANNOT BE INTIMIDATED.

Stop yelling you sound foolish

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 13, 2007 at 1:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Everyone:

Just so my point is clear for those that do not understand. You will probably pay heck trying to find a tape of a department with that much chaos on it. Most departments, like Dayton, Charlotte, etc. that have better radio control, communications, and cross agency cooperation. My point was to show that we HAVE the right to listen to tapes everywhere and make COMMUNICATION comparisons.

Every department has "the big one" in their fire notches. There are departments, such as Dayton, that are comparable in size to Charleston, try Toledo, Oh...pick any city, any state. I am using Dayton, because I can readily verify the sources. We can try to find communication tapes from similar fires around the country, do they all sound as this one? Fair bet is no, they don't...

Now...communication is only PART of the problem here. You have good radios, good, what next? Agency cooperation..police, neighboring FD's, rules of engagement, training for LARGE fires and tragedies as this(hurricanes, fires, earthquakes, etc). Training for ALL emergency personnel, INCLUDING dispatch. Where is the PR person??? Why is dispatch answering media questions, chatting with reporters?

There are literally hundreds of cities to compare with..LEARNING TOOLS.. not competition. NOT armchair quarterbacking...COMMON SENSE.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 13, 2007 at 3:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

BattChiefNCFD:

No offense taken. PLEASE read your email

Posted by mystery64 on August 13, 2007 at 8:20 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I know I am going to get bashed for this, but I am going to say what ALOT of people are wondering but just aren't saying - when are we going to raise money for our fallen soldiers? $6 MILLION raised for 9 fire fighters???

Posted by Yolie on August 13, 2007 at 9:10 a.m. (Suggest removal)

nickiegarbeil and fyrmnjim-
Of course I know they wouldn't have made the same decisions if lives were lost. We are looking at the decisions in hindsight. I am speaking about the commands given prior to any lives being lost. I really don't believe those guys were sent into the fire to be killed. If that was the case it would be considered "premeditated murder". Some of the comments made on this forum seem to suggest that very same thing. I believe many things contributed to this horrific tradgedy. I'm sure if anyone involved in this could go back and replay that day...they surely would. I'm sure the owner of the store wish that it was consrtucted more carefully, and I'm sure the fire departments wishes that they were more equip to deal with the fire that fatal day.

I truly believe that changes will come about after this tradgedy. We all need to believe that there is hope. ....I choose to be optimistic not pessimistic ....

Posted by vesta on August 13, 2007 at noon (Suggest removal)

Yolie: No, it was not "premeditated murder". There was, however, negligence. There was negligence in not being up to standards in a number of areas. In the face of the number of changes in building structures now as opposed to ten years ago, in materials used in fabrics now as opposed to ten years ago, in using hoses that are now used to fight trash and garden fires instead of hoses that fight big fires and then saying that he wouldn't change a thing is negligence. You have got to keep up with changes in ANY work force environment. To not do so at the least may result in losing business. In the fire department, unfortunately, it means loss of lives, either ffs or civilians.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 13, 2007 at 1:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Yolie,

I see you have a flare for the dramatics, a bit. NO ONE here has said Rusty is a murderer. Quit the contrary. I fully believe Rusty never wanted this to occur, for various reasons: he didn't want men to die, and he didn't want the black mark on his record of perfection. What we are believing is that he was negligent in this failure to maintain compliance within HIS department. You can't blown the horn without having to carry it through.

Where has anyone in the upper crust of the department or the city expressed that they would have done things differently? None that I have seen. In fact, Rusty made the comment that he would do the SAME things as he did that night. These men deserve for them to admit their fault and then truly fix it. From the top down. There IS hope, but it will take MUCH change, and in my own opinion, as well as others, the current leaders are not the men for the job. There is NO room for this much nepotism, it isn't safe, and it isn't efficient.

Posted by s283r on August 13, 2007 at 1:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nickiegarbeil:
Once again you fought ONE fire on a submarine. Boy that's some serious credential's. Key word in your comment... ONCE!
So you say YOU are protecting the Charleston firefighters now huh? I hate to tell you but hideing behind a computer isn't keeping them safe submarine girl! Unless you are by their side while fighting fires or outside in command you are not protecting them. Besides you don't have what it takes. As for your comment about how difficult it would be to find audio tapes of a fire that sounded chaotic as this one you are right...only because there has only been a couple with that many firefighters missing in the past 35 years. Sure a routine fire sounds great on the radio, but this wasn't routine. Yes my brother and I moved on submarine girl but we were right by the City firefighters sides for all those funerals...where were you? You also said that the CFD isn't recognizing the need for improvement...WRONG! It's being worked on as we speak. So the next time you feel that having a relative as a firefighter entitles you to your negative comments think again. YOU ARE NOT HELPING ANYONE NAVY GIRL!

Posted by Dog_Vomit on August 13, 2007 at 1:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Audio clip "K" is the same clip as audio clip "J", and audio clips G & H are not functioning.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 13, 2007 at 2:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Scott,

I am far from hiding behind my computer, and I am MUCH closer to the situation than YOU are. You're a ranger, and your motivations are to protect your man. Now, since you are incapable of reading clearly, I was defending HARPO, as the submariner, I was never on a sub.

Second, the REASON the city is acting on ANYTHING is because of our efforts within the general public. City Council members are also helping us, as are many many more. I don't see an overwhelming push to shut us up...In fact, YOU and BASS are the main two...TWO my friend..TWO vs MANY.

For your information, I was also at the funerals. You might want to verify your information BEFORE you open your flap. I quite enjoy you running your mouths frankly, because with all the public attention we have produced, you all are playing right into what we have said all along. LOL YOU are our greatest asset Mr Rowland. A ranger with ZERO REAL input. Never underestimate the power of the public eye, my friend...LOL

This fire COULD have been routine, Scott...it was poor leadership and a lack of compliance that led it astray. And there have absolutely only been a couple of fires where this many men have died...why? BECAUSE MOST DEPARTMENT LEADERS ARE TRAINED BETTER THAN THAT, AND KNOW IT IS NOT PROTOCOL!!!

Now, put your big boy britches on and face the music.

NICKIE GARBEIL-this would be my REAL NAME...no hiding here, and I have MANY relatives in the fire service, not just one.

Posted by s283r on August 13, 2007 at 2:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nicki:
My first comment was directed to Harpo not you, now because you have such a big mouth you replied to the comment I had for Harpo and created a bit of confusion. I stand by what I said to Harpo and I stand by what I said to you. CLUELESS AND NO CREDENTIALS!! You couldn't shine my shoes little girl!!! Now please stop talking about something you have no clue about

Posted by THISMUSTSTOP on August 13, 2007 at 2:54 p.m. (Suggest removal)

s283r,
You can't tell me that this is the only fire that you've heard at the CFD that sounded out of control. You can't. They all sound just like this. I was there and I can't understand most of what is being said that first hour. The yelling sounds sad and upset (once they actually realized it ((took way to long to realize too)) ) but it's still out of control. You don't get TOP SHELF ISO CLASS 1 status by sticking your head in the sand. I only know of one animal that does this and we all make fun of them at the zoo. We've known that this ISO CLASS 1 thing was a joke, and now the whole country knows! Thanks to the P & C we know that the department cheats, you think they cheated for the CLASS 1?

I'm over being mad. I'm just sad now and probably will be for some time. Two months is long enough for me, I'm going to get back to my family now. I'm sure they miss their Daddy.

I'm out!

P.S. I love all of you guys no matter how much I hate what happened and who is responsible. Hopefully there will be a new Chief with a brain in Charleston soon.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 13, 2007 at 3:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Scott, now only can I out think you, but I out AGE you son...so that makes the tables a bit turned...YOU couldn't shine MINE. You want me to shut up? Prove me wrong, Scott...you can't, because the inside is speaking out, through me, through others...and you are helpless to control them or me. I told you in my first post, I am not, nor will I be, intimidated.
You know, I TRULY believe that your anger is misplace anger that is REALLY guilt. You left your brothers, Scott, and you were complacent in the status quo. Yes, Scott, by saying nothing and kissing butt, you allowed the inept training and the lack of compliance within the department to lead to this tragedy. How many backs did you stab to get your Ranger badge?

Posted by oldcap on August 13, 2007 at 4:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Scott, I liked you boy. You were all right.

But brother, you are way out here. You want people to sign their names. You know the job Scott. Don't be ridiculous.

Plus, in another two or three months, you'll see all of us anyway. It'll be on the news. Talking about the old chief.

He's gone. Live with it.

Posted by oldcap on August 13, 2007 at 4:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

By him I mean your idol, Rusty.

Posted by s283r on August 13, 2007 at 5:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I stand by what I said and feel that only two people have room to talk, Charleston firefighters and the loved ones left behind. Oldcap you are obviously a firefighter with the city and I respect your opinion, you earned it. Navy girl I will not reply to any of your meaningless comments anymore, you are not worth my time and you sure haven't fought a fire before...so leave this up to your family. And believe me I found out what you know about this subject...NOTHING! To everyone, mistakes are made at 90% of fires that a firefighter dies and their is always room for improvement, but all the negative comments won't change a thing. There is critisism and there is consrtuctive critisism...we all know what this is. Changes will be made for the better because that's what the fire service is about, so for all of you that put this evil energy to meaningless use save it for church and pray for the loved ones left behind and the Charleston firefighter's still with us

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 13, 2007 at 6:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well, by your post, you DON'T know who I am or anything about me...That's good, always better to have the upper hand.

I don't know what REAL firefighters know, but I DO know more about the lies and deceit than you are willing to admit. Most of what I know is old fashion common sense, the rest is TAUGHT to me by old firefighters, current firefighters, both in and away from CFD, and family members of FF...never claimed to be an expert, my JOB is to get the messages from inside out to the public...

Mistakes are acceptable IF you admit them. It wasn't done, and THAT is what angers me personally.

As for not responding, thank you...you had already reached the level of FLY to me, just like the last Ranger that wanted to fight, and I had already decided not to respond to you again as well...However, I HAVE to have the last word...it's a woman thing..

WE will make changes, just sit back and watch for the fireworks...you can apologize to all of the fine citizens later while you wipe the crow from your face. Don't bother with me, please, I don't need it.

As for the families, they know, from my posting history that what I do is for their loved ones,they KNOW I won't let their loved one's death go without some accountability.

Posted by BattChiefNCFD on August 13, 2007 at 9:41 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't know what information people are getting concerning Scott Roland, but if he was considered a Rusty Ranger for being a Hell-of-a-firefighter, then that makes me a Rusty Ranger too. Scott and Bruce both worked for me for almost 4 years, and there are not too many people that I can think of that I'd want beside me on the line when the Sh*t hits the fan. I understand Scott's anger, and he is entitled to his opinion whether it goes with or against the crowd. But for people to criticize his knowledge, skill, or ability to speak as a brother honestly don't know squat. Don't be drawn in by all the second hand hearsay. Yes, Scotty was well liked by Chief Rusty, but to call him a kiss ass, or a Ranger is way off the mark. Believe me, Scotty is his own man, and will kiss no one's ass for anything. For anyone who has never been on the job, you truly cannot comment on the ability of someone you don't know, or have never worked with, no matter what someone else says about the individual. Scotty has almost 20 years in the fire service and works for one of the busiest engine companies in FDNY; his credentials speak for themselves. I know of at least 3 occassions where Scotty, Bruce, and others caught a flight at the last minute to attend funerals of fellow brothers who passed, so to question whether he is not close to members of CFD because he now works for FDNY is off-base. I can assure you that Scotty is not the type to stab a brother in the back. I don't agree with all of his opinions, but I certainly do respect his point of view. These guys are my boys, and as I stated earlier, after 22 years on the job, there's not too many people I would rather have in a fox-hole with me when things go bad.

Joseph A. Varella

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 13, 2007 at 10:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Chief,

With all do respect, SCOTT attacked ME first. My intelligence, my opinion and my drive to bring the truth and understanding to the people of this community. He was degrading, disrespectful and provided NO information to the contrary, other than to say Rusty is great. Having his opinion is one thing, to attack me, insinuating that I know nothing, and have no right to question is absurd. I wasn't fed information about them, I didn't need any.

I put myself out here for the cause of firefighters in state and throughout the entire US...pushing this cause into the forefront of people's views, so that no one has to die like this again. On one hand, Chief, you quietly in private, tell me that I am doing a good job, that you respect my efforts for the firemen, then turn on a dime when I slap your brothers mouth for being a disrespectful jacka$$.

I have valid ideas, and am willing to put myself out there for the good of the firefighters. I can walk away from this fight at any moment if that is TRULY what the men of CFD want me to do. Send me the emails, the regulars, whomever...I'll take a poll, you want to fight this fight on your own? So be it...Fend for yourselves, if you wish...I will cancel my meetings scheduled, throw away my notes from countless phone calls...after all, what is MY benefit? NOT ONE FRIGGIN THING. NOT ONE. Other than I wish to ensure that no family, and no firefighters ever have to go through this again.

When there is no one fighting for their cause gentlemen, they can come to YOU, the named men who wanted me to shut up..I am intimidated by no one, and disrespected by no one especially when what I am doing is to protect YOUR brothers.

I didn't say he didn't care, I said he left the department, the problems. I am angry and sick and tired of people saying one thing in private and in public covering their brothers tail end. What's it going to be gentlemen?

How noble they went to funerals, so did I...many of us did. But I and others, took on the fight to protect the rest of the men down here when the rest of you STAND IDLE.

Like me or not, I AM being heard, you want the policies and procedures to change? THEN LET ME DO MY JOB!!!

You don't like me? SO what. I am doing a hell of a lot more than most of you are willing to do, and I am NOT alone. I can say that while they watch you all attack me, they are having second thought of getting involved. No one wants to help out when they are getting shot at.

Your choice gentlemen...You going to pick up my slack when I walk away? I doubt it.

Posted by bjp99 on August 14, 2007 at 12:11 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I don't know if anyone noticed, but there are a lot of times missing on the tapes. Not only that, a lot of the tapes are repeated throughout the conversation.

I also want to say I thought the dispatcher did a great job with the information she was given.

Also, I thought the Fox News Reporter was quite rude in the early morning calls. She was more worried about getting the story vs. the feelings of the families. Ugh

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 14, 2007 at 12:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Like it or not, Nickie's got heart!

She offered herself up for CFD FF that can't speak out publicly for fear of retribution as a means for getting the word out to the public of what THEIR views are on the way the department is run.

She has written countless emails and letters to public officials. She has taken it upon herself to talk with people in the fire service to learn and try to understand the job. Alot of what we have all read, seen, listened to is a matter of common sense to the layperson, but she has gone beyond that. She doesn't do it for the fun of it, she does it because she believes that no other FF should die in the line of duty because this fire department refuses to change and to use current tried and true methods for fighting fires. We all know the problems that have been discussed about this fire dept. Even some of you career chiefs, firefighters, etc have weighed in on how the department is run.

Why can't you people see what is happening? Everyone screams, wait on the reports, wait on the reports. Those reports will take MONTHS! It's been nearly two months and nothing has changed in the department according to the things I have read, both in the paper, on this message board and on other FF websites. Changes, no matter how small, can't afford to wait!

I wish I had the guts myself to stand up the way she has. I'll feel terribly guilty in anyone else loses their life while I stand by and keep quiet.

Posted by oldcap on August 14, 2007 at 8:18 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Scott was a good boy on the job here. But he's off the mark by a good mile and a half. Sure, he has a right to be angry and to post but he wasn't there. Like the other kid he's a "used to" not a current firefighter. He's speaking emotionally, and that's fine, but Scott is off the mark.

Posted by Radiowave on August 14, 2007 at 8:58 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I appreciate and support nickiegarbeil and charleytowngirl passion and continued efforts. I am concerned that doing something, anything right now without an overall game plan how to sustain continuing progress in the months and years ahead will hurt, not help the situation. Can we as a community begin to reach consensus what needs to change – for example better training, new equipment, more effective radio communications, improved incident command, increasing cooperation with other departments, etc. Many of these will have substantial costs, others will require significant political leadership to implement.

Nickie, please don’t take your marbles and go home. We need many more like you to take our voices to our elected officials. Please consider organizing your efforts and enlisting others to help you. Democracy is a powerful tool when people come together for a common cause.

John - James Island

Posted by s283r on August 14, 2007 at 11:15 a.m. (Suggest removal)

To all Nikkie supporter's:
Nikki said that I started this by attacking her...WRONG! My first comment was directed towards HARPO and Nikkie responded,why I have no Idea and that created some confusion as to who she was. Look back and you will see this. Nikkie also said that all I talked about was how great Chief Rusty was...WRONG! I never once said that, look back and will see this as well. So all this is because Nikkie responded to a comment that wasn't even directed at her. See what happens when you don't mind your own business. And yes , when someone that I wasn't even directing my comments to responds and insults my intelligence you can be damn sure I'm going to remind them that they don't know a thing about the subject they are talking about. All the negative comments will do exactly what they are doing...NOTHING! What's going to change the CFD for better is the fact that 9 Firefighter's died, not someone that sits at a computer and talks about something they no nothing about. CFD is a great fire department and in one year it will be even better.

Posted by s283r on August 14, 2007 at 11:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Old Cap:
Like I said if you are a city firefighter I respect your opinion and agree that you earned it, but you know as well as I do the negativity isn't going to change a thing. Oh by the way Cap I'm not a used to be, I still am a firefighter. You said you liked me Cap and I'm sure I liked you but I had to correct you there. Take care and be safe

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 14, 2007 at 11:32 a.m. (Suggest removal)

s283r "CFD is a great fire department and in one year it will be even better."

So when are they going to start, has even one truck been upgraded to a LDH supply line. Has there been a SOG issued stating booster lines will not be taken into structure fires. 2 months have gone by and it appears no changes have even started yet.

Posted by BattChiefNCFD on August 14, 2007 at 12:18 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nickie,

First off, if you want to continue an argument, we can do that. You need to get your facts correct first before you start attacking others. If you read the posts, Scotty did not attack you first. You attacked him for a post he made to Harpo. If you didn't like what he said about Harpo, that's your problem. Can Harpo not take care of himself? I don't pretend to be hiding privately behind emails, and then openly defending a brother on this site. I stand by what I said in my email. The criticism of the CFD does not need to come from area firefighters outside their department. Questions and comments from John Q. Public and firerfighters outside the area are valid and deserve an answer. The changes that need to be made must come from the guys within, and I do understand and support their need for anonymity. As posted here and on other sites, a great many of them are doing just that. I support them for speaking out and demanding change. Not only do they need to make changes, but if you took a poll you'd be hard pressed to find many departments that wouldn't say the same. You see, the problems within the fire service go much deeper than a lack of command and control, poor accountability, and poor radio communications. No matter what a lot of others may say, these problems are faced by many departments throughout the US. If you researched the reports on firefighter deaths, you would find that many of the same factors that led to the deaths of these brothers, also contributed to the deaths of other brothers in their respective departments. It does not matter if its FDNY, Chicago, Philadelphia, Los Angeles, Houston, Phoenix, Charleston, North Charleston, Mt. Pleasant, James Island, etc. All departments face a lot of the same problems. No matter what any one says, when we suffer a Line-of-Duty-Death, you bet something went wrong, something was not up to par, and mistakes were made. It has been identified in all the reports concerning LODD’s.

Posted by BattChiefNCFD on August 14, 2007 at 12:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

cont.:

Not only do we face these problems, but the even bigger problem of lack-of-manpower within many departments. Engines riding with two and three men, ladder companies with one, two or even three men. You see, while the public blows the trumpet when tragedies as this one & 9-11 occur, where is the public the other 363 days of the year when our budgets are cut bone thin because it's easier to chop the fire departments budget because nobody screams about fires and citizens and firefighters dying because of them. The US has the highest death rate due to fire of any industrialized nation. No it's all too easy for the bean counters to put the money towards the police departments because everyone is tired of crime. They would rather roll the dice that a major fire such as this one would not occur and continue to operate with standards below what are called for nationally; which by the way have no bearing on a fire department. They can or cannot be adopted if the department chooses or does not choose to adopt them. The problem comes when a tragedy such as this one occurs, and then that same standard is the standard the department is held accountable to. Don't think you are a one-person martyr. Whether you will admit it or not, once the reports become public there will definitely be changes made. These changes will occur not only within the CFD, but NCFD, MTPFD, JIFD, SFD, GCFD, as well as departments throughout the US. I also, understand that we can't wait until then for changes to be made, and again as I stated; I do agree with you, but for you to continually bash people who have differing opinions because they don't support your point of view is juvenile. Be objective in your reasoning, and don’t lash out on emotion. Fight for your convictions responsibly, and you will earn respect from your allies as well as your adversaries. Yes, we do need to make changes and if you would like to help make these changes, continue on your path in a positive manner, and along with your crusade to help the brothers @ CFD, start a crusade demanding cities staff their apparatus with FULL crews, give more funding for training, better pay and benefits, etc. That would truly be appreciated. Finally, I’m not trying to bash you for your belief, or the cause you are fighting for, but I won’t standby while you bash a brother you don’t know anything about just because his opinion doesn’t go along with yours. As I said in the earlier post; I don’t agree with all of Scotty’s opinions either, but I do respect his position, and don’t begrudge his opportunity to be heard.

Olcap;
Please see the above final statement: I know you too know Scotty, and know he is a good firefighter. Scotty & I may have differing opinions as well on some of the issues, and I appreciate you acknowledging his differing opinion, by stating he is off-base instead of bashing him.

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 14, 2007 at 12:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

"start a crusade demanding cities staff their apparatus with FULL crews"
Maybe just another reason for all of the Charleston's brothers to join their Iaff local.

Where I am from we enjoy a freely negotiated manning clause in our contract. A pump or engine will NEVER be in service without a four person crew. If we are short the position is filled by calling in overtime........

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 14, 2007 at 12:37 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Keep up the good work Nickie, what you have been saying has been noticed. The locals are contacting their politicians, the reporters are continually uncovering more systemic problems every day. Unfortunately no one in the CFD management is listening, it appears not one change has been implemented.

Posted by s283r on August 14, 2007 at 1:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

bickleseagrave:
You are right in telling Nickie to keep it up, but she needs to do it the right way, and the right way isn't bashing the Chiefs in command at that fire. Like Chief V said where were all these people when CFD needed a voice for the budget or a voice for fair pay? It's not about booster lines or 5 inch hose, all the fancy equipment in the world isn't going to help unless you have the manpower to use it...MANPOWER IS KEY! With the right manpower you can efficiantly advance the proper size hose for the fire you have,with the right manpower you can have a fast team outside a burning building ready to remove a trapped firefighter, with the right manpower you can have a truck compamy doing what they should be doing, like locating the fire, popping ceiling tiles to see that there is a high heat build up do to the high ceilings, with the right manpower you can send a crew to the roof to ventilate a commercial building properly, all the equipment in the world won't get this done...MANPOWER WILL! As far as I know there is an assessment team getting ready to work with CFD for the next month or so to see where the changes need to be made, so if you ask me that's a step in the right direction. Like I said negative comments won't change a thing but the fact that 9 firefighter's died will. Be patient not negative.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 14, 2007 at 1:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

TO all: Looking back on the posts, I am going to say, Scott is right. I took offense to something he said, disrespecting another's view, just because he is ex military. To Scott, I apologize, but I still, this time RESPECTIVELY, disagree. I felt that you were disrespectful to Harpo, in an attempt to turn attention away from our cause. The truth of the matter between you are Harpo is that many of the tactics taken up on the civilian sector ARE tried and perfected in the military first. Example:TICS-we had then WELL before the civilians did. It isn't a competition Scott, and the general public does have good ideas in FIXING the problem. I want to take this opportunity to say I am sorry for contributing a "Jerry Springer" attitude to this forum. I am angry, emotional, and I felt you were attacking us(civilians) because we aren't firefighters. Scott, I apologize for taking my attack personally to you, and I apologize for the public, the families and fellow firefighters who had to read it.

Look, the reality is, I DON'T CARE WHO is running this department, OR the city for that matter. Rusty is NOT a bad MAN, my personal view of his Chief abilities are what they are, but I do not want him drawn and quartered.

The REAL purpose of my activism is that I want to help you, as firefighters, better protect yourselves, and better protect us. The common sense issues of training and good equipment ARE the issues here. And as citizens, WE have the RESPONSIBILITY to put forth our voices to do what we can to help effect change. We can either work together, or we can work against, but together keeps the focus and the motivations in check.

You are right, Scott, this is not about a witch hunt, and I truly believe I was not on one with Rusty and the Mayor, I did take my battle to you personally. I am tired, emotional, and have more information than I know what to do with, while being asked to keep going. I am sorry for attacking you.

CITIZENS:I will keep going, only this time it is on a redirected path to IMPROVEMENT of the SYSTEM. As evidenced by the tapes, we NEED, as a community, to help get them organized, through funding, awareness, training, and openness. Citizen organization is coming meetings are underway. If you want to help, call me. The GOAL is NOT to dethrone anyone, that is not our job. Our job is to HELP our elected officials improve the conditions, the funding and demand a better system.

Insults toward anyone and Jerry Springer have no place on this forum, out of respect for the men.

Posted by vesta on August 14, 2007 at 1:27 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Let us take a quick look at the ISO #1 rating. ISO--Insurance Service Office. By its very name, this entity is most concerned with insurance companies. There is an old joke, "You are in good hands with _____________ until you go to collect on a claim." First, ISO is most concerned with the quantity of training, not the quality. Second, ISO is also most concerned with the number of firefighters at a fire ground. The more ffs at the scene, the better chances of getting the fire out. Right? Not necessarily. If these ffs are not trained properly, their numbers cease to be significant to the job at hand: putting out the fire as quickly as possible with everyone coming out alive. If they haven't been taught or equipped properly, it only adds to the chaos. I can truly understand the comments posted by the CFD ffs on this and other sites that the ISO rating was a joke. Insurance companies operate on "bets". They take your premiums and "bet" that you are not going to have a fire, hurricane, etc. The ISO rating gives the insurance companies a better idea of the safety of their side of the bet; however, that bet is only as good as the individual from ISO that reports the information to the insurance companies, which thereby lowers the ratings and decreases premiums.

Posted by Radiowave on August 14, 2007 at 2:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Thank you Nickie and others – I agree, it is time to take the high road. There is a growing ground swell of local support to make positive change and demand action. This is a critical public safety issue, the safety of our ff who respond and the safety of all who live and work here in Charleston. I understand there are a number of local groups forming to address these issues. Let’s pick a time and place we can meet and share our concerns and speak publicly to the Mayor, City Council, and Chief Thomas to hear our voices. We do want change, we are willing to spend the money to be sure this never happens again, we are willing to make some sacrifices to get CFD where it needs to be, we are coming together as a community to support those we lost and honor their sacrifice and support their loved ones and colleagues. This is not about any one person, it’s about a system that is not meeting our needs and finding ways to overcome these deficiencies and excel.

Let’s pick a time and place in the next week or so where we can come together as a community to do the right thing and let our voices be heard.

John - James Island

Posted by BattChiefNCFD on August 14, 2007 at 4:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nickie,

Thanks for your comments. That's what we all need, objective reasoning based on facts. While many of us do react emotionally and from the heart, those who do react and respond emotionally, but don't understand the realities of the job, need to be educated and informed in a manner as you have above stated. As I said, you will definitely gain the respect of your allies as well as your adversaries. Please keep up the job, not only for our brothers at CFD, but for ALL firefighters within the Tri-County area and the US. Thanks again!!!!

Sincerely,
Joseph A. Varella

P.S., I know a lot of you who view this know me, so please call me by the name I go by. Tony

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 14, 2007 at 5:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Chief,

Thanks, I think I just needed to get my head on to what the real issues need to be...We know the faults, we have all discussed them here, but the real work is how to fix them. We aren't finished needing FF input. I think the best idea is to organize, like Radio(John) said. Then we need to come up with things(in my opinion) that the city can look into implementing. Most serious issues first. I think that it is beneficial for us to bring a list of IDEAS, based on experienced FF input, so that the City officials UNDERSTAND how and why. NOT whom and when...Am I making sense? In other words, we can DEMAND change, but will they know WHAT to change or where to start? We cannot TELL them what to do, we have to show them that we have ideas that are valid and do-able...Just my thoughts...

Please take care of my cousin...he IS one of yours...

Posted by upstateFF on August 14, 2007 at 5:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Some of you people beat all!!! I mean really!!

Posted by upstateFF on August 14, 2007 at 5:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

The tapes tell any experienced f.f. all he needs to know about the scene in 35 min. what a freakin shame... sure theres a lot more one wonders abuot... but this really is the "fill in the blank" piece that most of us needed to confirm our darkest fear about just how messed up this whole thing was!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 14, 2007 at 6:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I have a few questions for the guys of CFD. First, the audio quality is pretty bad at times. Was this the case on the scene, or was this just due to the distance between the scene and the comm center? Do your trucks have repeaters? Also, two of the "MAYDAY" calls were stepped all over and ignored. Were they just not heard? I have to say it was very frustrating for me to listen to those tapes. Maybe its because I'm not used to so much chatter on the radio. Finally, I heard Chief Thomas ask for "50 more pounds" on the supply line several times. Is water typically an issue for you guys? If you are using 5" supply (and I think CFD does) why does the relaying engine need to give the other engine more than 50 pounds? I'm not trying to point any fingers. I just want to figure out for myself what went wrong so that maybe this doesn't happen to myself or the guys I work with. May we never forget our 9 brothers.

Posted by Wilmot on August 14, 2007 at 6:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

FIRSTDUE432, I am a CFD FF. I can not answer your questions regarding the fire because there is a memo restricting all CFD FF's from discussing the fire. I am instructed to refer all questions to the Chief of Department, R. Thomas jr. 843-720-1981

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 14, 2007 at 6:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

GOTCHA. Hang in there brother. I'm sure it will eventually get better.

Posted by Wilmot on August 14, 2007 at 6:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I guess I can correct your thought on us having 5 inch hose though since that is a general fire department subject. The answer is no. for mor info on the CFD check out www.firefighterhourly.com or go to the City of Charleston FD's website, it'll tell you if you can get your pool filled by the fire department or not. Don't look for a mission statement there though, I don't think we have one of those.

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 14, 2007 at 6:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

NO 5"??? Wow, I'm shocked. Is that too 20th century?

Posted by vesta on August 14, 2007 at 7:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

FIRSTDUE432: Many of the CFD ffs did post to very early articles (June and very early July). If you can access the archives of the P&C and look at the comment section after the article, you will see some of their comments prior to the "gag" order.

Posted by ssm on August 14, 2007 at 7:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Here's the link to the hose article:

http://www.charleston.net/news/2007/jul/...

Posted by Re2 on August 14, 2007 at 8:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Well, after hearing the radio traffic I must say I am disgusted. There were several maydays and one call out that a fireman was seperated from his hose, all ignored or walked over. I know big fires= alot of radio traffic, but what I heard was a total breakdown in the ICS system. Was this the case? If you all care to listen there is a video, and radio traffic shot by a Houston news crew of a mayday situation in Houston. It was handled completely different and the captain was pulled out alive. Listen to that tape and then this one and note the differences.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 14, 2007 at 8:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Do any of you have suggestions on some of THE MOST important things that can be suggested? We know that things went wrong, we know how and why, but we REALLY need input on how to fix the system issues...

Here is my question to all of you firefighters:

Once a command system is fully in place-in ANY department-is there someone that makes rounds to ensure that the IC command system is actually being used?

Are there training courses for dispatchers as well as some physical command training? (example:is there some sort of mass casualty training in place?)

Just a further question for anyone in Charleston...How much IS the actual allotted budget amount for the CFD, the CPD, dispatch, etc? Separately if known, plz..

I would like to correct something if I may...in all fairness, I do not believe there is a LEGAL "gag order"...this requires LEGAL action. There IS however, rumors that a MEMORANDUM went out asking/telling FF not to speak of the incident. It's really alright if they cannot speak. Tapes are out, investigators are in town, movement is happening through them.

BUT, the memorandum does not include practice and procedure within the department on other scenes, just THAT one...they can still come forward and HELP us HELP them through providing us with PUBLIC information so we can better help City Council push changes.

Keep up the good work CFD...We are standing behind you ALWAYS..
Signed,
New and Improved, Politically Correct Version of the Same PIA :)

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 14, 2007 at 9:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Quote Nickie "Once a command system is fully in place-in ANY department-is there someone that makes rounds to ensure that the IC command system is actually being used?"

After any major fire or occurrance there must be a critique with all involved. A good critique usually points out any places where things went wrong as well as allowing for a pat on the back when things went well.

At these critiques every detail of the occurrance is dissected and discussed, including how the IC system, accountability, RIT and everything else worked.

Everyone is allowed their say and if a firefighter saw a problem with IC he can mention it without fear of repercussion.

The whole idea is to find problems and FIX them, not lay blame.

Basically by doing this after every working incident we seem to have less and less problems from the IC system on down. As they say "Practice Makes Perfect"

So Nickie, the person(s) "making the rounds" is ourselves as a group.

The findings and outcomes from the critique are then posted for all members to see and take advantage of the lessons learned.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 14, 2007 at 9:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bickleseagrave: Wanna move to Charleston? Maybe a push should be started to get you here! It's a beautiful place, lots to do! Close to the ocean, good fishing, great restaurants! Good people! No snow!

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 14, 2007 at 9:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Retirement coming very soon,lol.........and what's wrong with a little snow, justifies driving the 4x4 SUV.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 14, 2007 at 9:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bick,

Thank you for responding...You have some very logical suggestions, but unfortunately we don't have that luxury here in SC to place all of these recommendations. We must work with some of the system that is already in place, and wait for legislation to come from the powers that be both in the state and federal governments...

Here is why...South Carolina is a right to work state...this means they can let you go for any reason or no reason-effectively no job security for ANYONE in the state...So...with that being said job security is one of the legislations going through the House right now...we can't force this one yet...

I absolutely agree that the whole idea is to fix the problem not to fix blame...sometimes this is hard with such an emotional issue...we can also say that with all of the IC ducks in a row there would probably be no reason for there to be a blame game...in other words if we perform every task to the best of our ability and within the letter of the law, there is no room for blame, right? Of course there is ALWAYS room for improvement, so training and critiquing is a must as you say..

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 14, 2007 at 9:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

SUV!! no bubba, here in the south you'd be driving a PICKUP truck with your rifles in the back window and eating boiled peanuts! Just kidding...don't send me hate mail!

Posted by vesta on August 14, 2007 at 9:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nickie: Check your pms.

Posted by Radiowave on August 14, 2007 at 10:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nickie - you're doing great. I'll ask the same question to those in CFD and local departments . . . what are the top half dozen issues/items or so that need to be addressed right now. If the P&C articles are representative of some of the key problems, what are the solutions - things that we can take to 80 Broad St. that the citizens of Charleston can say we want to change, we want to make this a safer place, we want to do the right thing.

CFD - we are behind you and will never forget. This is a matter of public safety, not tradition.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 14, 2007 at 10:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Got em Vesta...

Charleygirl, don't forget Dixie on the whip antennae!

Radiowave: Thanks...have more where those are coming from...will post more in a while..need to collect the thoughts together

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 14, 2007 at 10:48 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey guys,

I think one major important thing the City should implement is one that I mentioned earlier...I don't know what it could be called in civilian sectors, but in the military, we called them mass casualty training. What this is, if some don't already know about it, is a massive drill with the entire emergency response system...Police, Fire, Mayor, City Council, Public Affairs officer, dispatchers,power companies, water company, right down to the taxi cab owners...You put together a scenario(terrorism, major fire, plane crash, HURRICANES, etc) then you work on HOW these entities will work together, who does what...it's a massive training for the IC system CITY WIDE. This training is to help with any cross agency issues BEFORE the tragedy. When the exercise is finished, then it is critiqued on ALL aspects for weaknesses that need improving..FEMA compliance and public safety all in one...

Big detail...budget...I am looking into this, not very well versed in grants, but I think there is money in FEMA for this sort of training...it is one thing to take the tests,read the courses, it is another to be able to coordinate a city this size for a serious tragedy like we had on 6/18...

FEMA, on the other hand needs to fix the flawed system of their testing...satellite classrooms where computer classes are not utilized for emergency personnel.

Posted by Radiowave on August 14, 2007 at 10:52 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nickie, just sent a letter to the P&C editor. The title is my last sentence above. I tried to call Kathleen Wilson, my District 12 city council member tonight but she wasn't home and will try again tomorrow. I called the main Charleston Co. library on Calhoun and they have a big public meeting room (200) but only can be reserved by an organized non-profit group. Maybe we need to come up with a name for a local group and try for next Sun or the week after. If that doesn't work, maybe Chief Thomas would let us use one of the fire houses for a town hall meeting :-)

John - James Island

I'm wondering if Ron Menchaca is following this thread. Ron, here's democracy at it's best, maybe that's worth a story.

Posted by vesta on August 14, 2007 at 10:58 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nickie: Good idea. I thought I remembered on one of the previous sites' postings by a CFDff (prior to the silencer memo) that they do "drills". I wonder what kind of "drills" they are referring to. I am aware of many less urban areas that have such drills at least once a year. Often high school students volunteer to be "victims". Does the CFD have a grant writer? Usually the chief or AC does this. This type of drill also highlights the importance of knowledgeable, calm, clear and concise IC.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 14, 2007 at 11:01 p.m. (Suggest removal)

John,

Let's see....

1)Citizen's For Public Safety Awareness (CPSA)

2)Public Safety Awareness Association (PSAA)

3)Citizens For A Safer Community (CFSC)

I actually prefer the second one...I'll try to think of some others...

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 14, 2007 at 11:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Vesta,

I have JUST the person in mind to write grants...Not me, but HE knows who he is... (GRIN)

Posted by fyrmnjim on August 14, 2007 at 11:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nicki, it's called MCI here too. We have a few tabletop exercises and one full scale practice a year. I met the atty general Ashcroft at one a few years ago.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 14, 2007 at 11:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Jim,

GREAT!! What are the table top exercises? Like a scaled pre-plan with heads of agencies? Seems pretty inexpensive, is there much of a budget need for this?

I heard from Vesta that that area up there uses HS students as patients...pretty LOW budget cost there...and the kids would probably love the goo they put on them...

When your city does Mass Casuality, what is their usual annual budget? I ask this because you city is virtually the same size...at least the FD...might give us the general idea of what to expect for budgeting...

Posted by fyrmnjim on August 14, 2007 at 11:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Also: CFD should be holding these exercises as part of their Haz-mat and USAR programs. FEMA reimburses for these exercises.

There is tons of $$ growing on the FEMA tree. You just need the right picker(grant writer) to pluck it.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 14, 2007 at 11:15 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Are the Haz-mat training exercises just the FD??? Seems that they might also include the major players in the agencies...

Posted by Radiowave on August 14, 2007 at 11:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Vesta, mass casualty is more an EMS and hospital function though the fire deparments are key players. Mainly the primary emphasis is first responders (EMS) and first receivers (hospitals). There was a grant that just went out last two weeks for earthquake preparedness and setting up 18 community storage sites for emergency medical supplies, emergency communications, etc. In an earthquake, Charleston becomes 18 separate island (think of all that water surrounding us and how many bridges we go over every day). The local EMS and fire stations are where these prepositioned containers would be set up and then these sites would be part of the initial response.

This is getting a bit off topic, feel free to contact me directly for further info if interested. However I will say there has been an excellent response from Tri-county area hospitals, EMS, EMD, DHEC, military, etc. after Katrina to be sure we are ready from a medical standpoint for the next storm or disaster.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 14, 2007 at 11:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Radiowave,

I agree that in the past the hospitals have been the primary players in MCI's (I played a patient once in Ohio), but in this situation, isn't it warranted for the FD, the PD, SCE&G, CPW, and dispatchers work on cross communications? I think the tabletop suggestions is a good one, as well...

Maybe MCI isn't what I am thinking of...OR maybe I have misunderstood you...?

Posted by upstateFF on August 15, 2007 at 7:57 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Has anyone noticed that upwards of 30% of the fireground communications the first 30 min. of the incident where dedicated to estblishment of a sustainable water supply!!???? those of us sitting in surrounding departments across our state cant help but wonder what the hell is up with that!!!!!ICS is needed, but theres nothing like getting water on the damn fire. CFD's method of establishing water supply at this fire will surely come under extreme scruitney in the coming weeks... The forward laying of l.d.h. lines by the initial responding companies would have prevented much of the resulting cluster that diverted so much of commands attention...( and I use the word "command "as loosely as i ever have)

It will..... be noted by thousands of firefighters across this country, and brought out in thousands of training sessions that the first arriving companies must establish their own water supply... and not be reliant on multiple second due companies to lay lines for them.

The l.d.h. questions and water suppy tactics will be a significant factor in evaluating the lessons learned of this whole deal.. and will no doubt point out one more " i cant believe they did it that way in charleston" moments for us all to shake our heads about.

listen on...... the tapes tell most of what you need to hear to develop a list of nationally reconized no,no's...

one cannot help but think,... that being caught up in that kind of watersupply culture must make for some frustrated firefighters that are otherwise versed in more effective watersupply tactics....

Posted by aconcernedcitizen on August 15, 2007 at 8:45 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I’ve been thinking about this for the last day or so and talking it over with some knowledgeable old fire fighters, here’s what might work. If you are going to make noticeable improvements, the best way to go is usually to do the things that will make the biggest difference for the least amount of resources fires. So here go my ideas for improvements.

1. Incident Command System:
Establish a working incident command system in compliance with NIMS and state regulations. The system should be scalable (Sectors, etc.) and be used daily on all incidents. Multi-company and multi-agency drills should be held regularly until everyone “masters” the system. Captains and B/Cs will use this most often and should be trained first. Followed by the chief and A/Cs. Any engineer that will be in the acting captain role should be in the initial wave. Firefighters and Asst. Engineers would be trained as well, but in a more basic form, at least to start. South Carolina law (Fire/ Emergency Powers Act) states the fire chief or his designee is in charge of almost all types of emergency incident, the fire department needs to be on point with ICS and be the lead agency in bring other city departments up to standards.

2. Water Supply:
Large diameter supply (LDH) lines should replace all 2.5” supply lines. 5” LDH would be the most logical choice, give the staffing levels and water supply avaliable to the Charleston Fire Department. The first arriving unit should establish their own water supply, when ever possible. 1.75” hose lines should be used for initial attack on any structure unless conditions warrant larger attack lines; all engines should be fitted with pre-connected 1.75” attack lines in a cross-lay configuration. 2.5” hose can be retained for as a larger hand, and used as needed. Each engine should have a mounted deluge device, as well as portable units avaliable. An appreciable amount of 3” hose should be carried on all engines for use with portable deluge devices. 1 booster reel may be retained on each engine if space permits for use on trash fire, grass fires, mop-up operations, and other appropriate applications. If areas exist in the city with out adequate hydrant coverage, tankers should be purchased, staffed with at least one engineer, and all personnel trained in water shuttle operations. Also all personnel should participate in multi company relay pumping drills.

More to come later.

Posted by aconcernedcitizen on August 15, 2007 at 9:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Continued from above:

3. Training:
Establish a training division in the fire department. The chief of training should be at least a battalion chief level officer. The chief of training should have at least 4 training officers who are captains. All training division personnel should be certified SCFA instructors. All company officers should be certified as a “department trainer” by the training division, all B/C & A/C should also be certified as SCFA instructors as soon as practical. A recruit training school should be established, or all new recruits sent to the SCFA in Columbia for initial training. If the recruit school in maintained in house the minimum number of hours should be 320. If the SCFA is utilized an additional 80 for department orientation and practices to be trained should be handled after completion of the academy. All recruit firefighter training should include at least 40 hours of firefighter safety and survival instruction. A state of the art training facility should be built with a drill tower, live burn facilities, and multiple classrooms. The training facility should be large enough for multi-company, and multi-agency drills. Due to the number of fire departments operating in the Charleston area and the cost of such a facility, it would be prudent to make the training facility a joint effort of all departments in the area, allowing the cost to be shared, and everyone to get maximum use of the facility.

4. Safety:
A department safety officer shall be appointed, the safety officer should be at least a captain and preferably a battalion chief. The safety officer or an additional battalion chief should respond to all working incidents to monitor for hazardous conditions and compliance with safe practices. In the case of large incidents such as the SSS fire, the on scene safety officer should appoint assistant safety officers in order to be able to effectively monitor these situations. RIT/FAST should be established at all working fires, and the city should comply with 2 in / 2 out even if it is not required by the state of South Carolina. All fire fighters shall be trained in RIT/FAST operations. Modern lightweight, PPE should be purchased for all personnel that participate in firefighting activity, PPE shall be utilized.

More to come:

Posted by Radiowave on August 15, 2007 at 9:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I appreciate the well thought out suggestions. I am compiling them and will take these to Kathleen Wilson, District 12 city council in the next couple of days.

Could I ask about mutual aid - that was an issue at the SSS fire but it seems to be a generic problem here in Charleson as we have multiple departments yet no integration or automatic response plans and no coordinated radio talk groups. e.g. I live on JI and E7 is first due to my subdivision but E13 way up Folly Rd is second due and they come right past JIFD HQ on Camp Rd. to get here - that doesn't make any sense because JIFD could get here faster than E7 probably. All the issues with supply hose, ICS, training is important but mutual aid and coordinated response gets personal - if someone's house is burning in the middle of the night, waiting 10 min for the second engine and ladder truck is not acceptable.

It's about public safety, not tradition.

The community will never forget the Charleston 9.

John - James Island.

Posted by aconcernedcitizen on August 15, 2007 at 10:22 a.m. (Suggest removal)

5. Department Organization:
The chief should oversee the entire department, report to the mayor. The chief has overall responsibility for the department. Reporting to the chief should be at 4 assistant chiefs. Each assistant chief should be responsible for a major operating division of the department. The major divisions would be Emergency Operations / Fire Suppression, Training / Human Resources, Administration, and Fire Prevention / Code Enforcement / Arson. The operations division would consist of 12 battalions (4 battalions x 3 shifts) each lead by a battalion chief, one battalion chief would act as shift commander and coordinate the operation of each shift. The shift command role should rotate on a regular basis, possibly quarterly. Each battalion chief would be responsible for approximately ¼ of the city (5 stations +/-).

The Training / HR division would consist of a battalion chief training officer, a battalion chief safety officer, a battalion chief staffing and hiring officer, and a battalion chief internal affairs / audit officer.

The Administration division would consist of a captain information technology officer, a Battalion Chief communications division officer, and a Battalion chief budget officer.

The assistant chief of fire prevention would be the city fire marshal, and have 3 assistant fire marshals that reported to them 1 for fire prevention, 1 for code enforcement and one for Arson investigation.

All division functional areas shall have enough captains, and other personnel assigned to maintain an effective span of control. Enough personnel should be assigned so all operations can be performed safely and effectively.

6. Fire Response Levels and Staffing:
Initial response levels and 2nd / 3rd / 4th alarm response levels shall be set for all types of incidents. Minimum response for a structure fire should be 2 engines 1 ladder and 1 rescue unit. The city should establish at least 2 rescue companies. Rescue companies shall have a minimum staffing of 1 Captain, 1 Engineer and 3 Firefighters. Rescue Company personnel should have advance RIT/FAST training, high level rescue training, water rescue training, be certified medical first responders or EMTs, be HAZMAT technicians, and have all training that engine company and ladder company personnel have. The rescue companies should be placed strategically throughout the city. Engine companies shall have a minimum staffing level of 1 Captain, 1 Engineer and 2 Firefighters. Ladder companies shall have a minimum staffing level of 1 Captain, 1 Engineer and 2 Firefighters. Automatic Mutual aid agreements shall be established with all surrounding jurisdictions. The closest avaliable units from any department in the area covered by the agreements should be dispatched to any incident.

Posted by vesta on August 15, 2007 at 10:26 a.m. (Suggest removal)

upstateff: as concerned citizen says, you have to have big hoses to get that water through. Water pressure was a problem because they were trying to pump through inadequate size lines.

Did anyone catch Richard Steele's comments on Channel 4 last night? He is from the National Fire Academy (NFA), the premier of ff schools. He said most fire departments vie for videos the NFA can use in examples of how to fight certain fires (department stores, schools, etc.). He said that the video of the SSS fire from Charleston, SC would be used as an example of how NOT to fight a fire.

Posted by fyrmnjim on August 15, 2007 at 10:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If a true MCI occurs, it would require the cooperation and coordination of the entire reigons services. This not only includes FD's(incl Haz-mat, USAR), PD's, EMS, hosp's, but also utilities, mass transit, animal control, MACIE, DMAT, etc. All these agencies need to do internal analysis and drills to see what their own individual capabilities are and where improvements need to be made. Then all the agencies get together for tabletop exercises and planning. This then needs to followed up with actual mock diasaters, Terrorism, Airplane crash, natural Disaster, etc. Flexibiity is the key to the success of this whole process.

Posted by aconcernedcitizen on August 15, 2007 at 10:52 a.m. (Suggest removal)

7. Communications:
The fire department should make more effective use of the 800MHz Motorola trunked radio system that it uses. Talk groups should be established for dispatch, response / initial operations, command, fire ground operations, and administrative uses. The fire department shall remain on analog talk groups as the IAFC has reported that the vocoder used in digital systems has difficulty producing intelligible communications due to the high level of background noise on fire scenes. All talk groups shall be recorded and communication recordings used for critiques of fires. Several non-system simplex fire ground channels shall be avaliable for use in cases where the system cannot be accessed, so that units can still communicate with each other and command. All chief officers will be assigned 2 portable radios and have 2 mobile radios install in their vehicle so they can communicate on both the fire ground channel with the working units and on the command / dispatch channel with dispatch and responding units simultaneously. All surrounding fire departments in mutual aid agreement shall have all Charleston fire department talkgroups programmed in their radios. All agencies (PD, EMS, etc) that respond to incidents with Charleston FD shall have the FD talkgroups programmed in their radios. An alerting system shall be established for all stations so that stations don’t have to monitor all dispatch traffic all the time (such as during sleeping hours). SOPs for proper dispatch and radio use procedures should be developed and all personnel trained on the proper use of the radio communication system. Firefighters need to be instructed to use the emergency button in all mayday situations.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 15, 2007 at 11:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Citizen,

The training facility is a fantastic FUTURE idea..what we need is the NOW...we have a facility already that has large meeting rooms...N. Charleston Coliseum...Why can't these departments utilize those rooms for training in classroom. We have a burn tower utilized by the local departments...could probably use more money to upgrade and expand on it in principle, but we have to also think about the cost v benefit in the immediate time frame..taking these ideas to City Council is a fantastic idea, but we are looking at the city dealing with some major pay outs in liability claims in the near future...what can we do NOW to train these men for the next fire coming up?

I absolutely agree that ALL instructors, whether or not they are in house instructors or not, should be Academy certified.

The situation that we have seen directly falls back on a laxed communication system CITY WIDE, not just CFD...

RIT teams are imperative for all fire scenes...better safe than sorry

Still reading the posts...good job so far.

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 15, 2007 at 11:47 a.m. (Suggest removal)

aconcernedcitizen, great work there, a very comprehensive list so far, basically you are compiling the points that have been brought out over and over in all of the comments sections of the stories. You are right on the money!

Posted by vesta on August 15, 2007 at 12:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

We are coming up with some really good ideas, but, as Nickie said, we need something now to "tide these guys over" until the panel, NIOSH and OSHA make their recommendations, and, as I see it, that is training for EVERYONE beginning yesterday. With the proper training, the ffs and, hopefully the administration will see what they are not doing properly and they can request what equipment they need. These excellent long term ideas as posted by aconcernedcitizen need to be given to the city council members and the mayor so that they can see that even average citizens recognize what is needed in the future. I am sure most of these ideas will be arrived at by the panel, but maybe it will make the council and mayor realize that the citizens, too, are on top of this situation and, on their own, have come up with some excellent suggestions.

Posted by Radiowave on August 15, 2007 at 12:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Charleston City council meeting:

Tuesday, August 21, 5:00, 80 Broad St. 2nd floor. I ask everyone following this thread to come to the meeting if possible to show support for positive change and support our FF.

If you live in one of the Charleston City council districts, I ask you consider speaking at the meeting. It is an open public forum and town meeting. Mayor Riley will be there as well. I'm trying to collect my thoughts but anticipate I will speak if I get the chance. Only 2 minutes! so let's start practicing our elevator speeches. Nothing too technical, just the basics as we've been discussing: better training, better equipment, integrated mutual aid and communications, having citizens contribute to the review and recommendation process, etc. Let's make this as positive as we can, this is our chance for the Mayor to hear our voice.

John - James Island

Posted by upstateFF on August 15, 2007 at 12:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hey guys , the above concerned citizen comments today are exactly whats needed to bring about the necessary change. Of course,, all previous posts are part of the process... getting things moving in the right direction.. Specific, actionable objectives itenfified by a wide range of interested parties will surely bring about the necessary dialogue.

of course,, the devil's always in the details....

A simple personnel accountability system could have already been estblished,( since the fire ) trained upon and implemented department wide.... with a very small investment in time or money... say ten bucks per firefighter!!!!

it's done all over the place on a regular basis. the simplist of systems can be taught to the average f.f. in 5 min. and enforced by the company officers..

general scuttle but out and about in f.f. land has it that on-scene f.f.personell accountability was nonexistant... to the point that when it became timefor the coronor to identify the f.f. in the rubble on the scene, there was not an accurate list of who was acually missing. this was a considerable time after the initial mayday/collaspe... possibly as much as 2 hours. most systems would allow for a personnel accountability report (PAR) of all f.f. in just a few min.

this is used all over the country..everyday....

The fire academy even teaches it on regular basis..

keep the sugestions coming.... with specifics, to ultimatly inform the elected officials of action necessary to avoid such a tragedy in the future...

wouldnt it be neat to put these things.. all bundled up in a report.. in the hands of elected officials.. prior to all the "expert investigaions" reports coming in.. and for the elected officials to acknowledge, (at least privatly among themselves ) that a simple report from the local fire service was all that was needed to identify the vast majority of problem that contributed to this tragedy.

the fireservice struggles daily to create new was to kill them selves.......... the vast majority of our fatilities and injuries are predictible.. preventable...and we know how to address avoid them with reasonable ceartainty...

the tapes are damming evidence of hard working brothers caught up in a system that requires fundamental overhaul with or without "car one".......

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 15, 2007 at 12:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I would start off that by saying that your firefighters are the best, but to do the job they need the latest up to date equipment, technology and training! IT MUST BE A PRIORITY before any more are lost! Keep in mind that minimum manpower on a rig must be 4 on an engine and 4 on a ladder(depending on it's designated duties)

Posted by aconcernedcitizen on August 15, 2007 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

8. Firefighter Accountability
Establish an accountability system. Utilization of a tag system, white boards, etc. All personnel need to check in at the command post upon arrival, and again prior to entering a hazardous area. Prior to the arrival of a chief officer and the set up of an official command post, a temporary accountability system should be used. This can be as simple as leaving accountability tags on the seat of the first arriving unit or with the engineer if he stays with the unit, this however should be standardized department wide so everyone know where to find the accountability information. If a company officer sets up formal command and a formal command post he should follow normal accountability procedures and transfer the accountability tracking to higher-ranking officer upon transfer of command. Command may delegate firefighter accountability to the on scene safety officer if deemed necessary. Personnel accountability reports (PARs) should be conducted by command or safety on a regular basis, such as with in 15 min of the start of the incident and ever 30 minutes going forward. Additional PARs should be conducted whenever necessary, including but not limited to the following: Structural collapse, emergency evacuation of a structure, activation of a radio’s emergency button, mayday called, and if a discrepancy is found in the accountability system. In case of structural collapse or emergency evacuation all on scene units should sound sirens and air horns for at least 30 seconds. A specific air horn pattern should be used such as repeated, “short, short, short, long” and a message radio message such as “code red, code red, code red, all units evacuate the structure” should be broadcast several times.

Posted by vesta on August 15, 2007 at 1:25 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Everyone: Upstateff has an excellent idea. What time restraints our speaker is under is important. Get the council and mayor's attention, but leave with them a report to mull over. Granted some of them will probably deep six it, but if at least one reads it, he/she will mention it to the others. The report should contain some critical elements: (1)how the actual CFDffs themselves feel (use their quotes prior to the memo). We want council and the mayor to realize that most of the ffs WANT and need changes; (2) constructive overview of the scene as we have heard (audios) and read (newspapers, postings); (3) constructive suggestions (such as those posted above and elsewhere). The element of time (not just for the speaker), but for the surviving ffs is crucial. Panels, NIOSH, OSHA reports take a while....the time is NOW to begin training from the top down and then to begin implementing some of the great ideas that have been posted on this and other boards.

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 15, 2007 at 1:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I believe that the three long blasts of the air horn is pretty well utilized as a universal evacuation signal most places in North America.
The newer apparatus usually have an air horn button right on the pump panel so the engineer/pump operator does not have to leave his post.
The more things that are compatible with surrounding departments you may be working with, the better!

The term "Emergency Traffic" once broadcast over the radio is the universal signal for everyone to listen for important info over the radio.

Of course MAYDAY is the universal distress signal in the fire service.

Posted by vesta on August 15, 2007 at 1:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Continued: The written report could be dedicated to the Charleston 9, and also in honor of all CFDffs serving the city.

Sections of the report, as suggested above, make for easier incorporation by the reader. Make it organized.

So very many constructive ideas have been posted by many on this site that really need to be brought to council and the mayor's attention. After all, how many of these people know about fire departments? Most are only concerned that if you make that 911 call for a fire, you want those big red trucks to show up quickly, put out the fire, and not do much damage.

Posted by Radiowave on August 15, 2007 at 3:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I'm not sure how well an "external" or outside unsolicited report would be received, probably not very well, especially if it were anonymous. Having CFD's own members submit something is obviously problematic. Having a regular Charleston citizen submit something compiled from anonymous sources is likewise problematic (but I do appreciate all the efforts from around the country to help us better understand, especially after hearing the audio tapes). Not sure what the best way to handle this - any suggestions?

John - James Island

Posted by aconcernedcitizen on August 15, 2007 at 4:21 p.m. (Suggest removal)

How do the council meetings work in Charleston? Everyone that signs up gets 2 min to speak. I know that some councils allow you to yeild your time to another person, so maybe several people could sign up to speak, all yeild time to a desginated spokesman. This person could pass out the compiled report to the council, mayor and other city officals present, in order to reinforce the message from their speach. Just an idea though.

Posted by vesta on August 15, 2007 at 4:43 p.m. (Suggest removal)

aconcerned citizen: if there is a yield, that sounds good; however, they may set up the schedule based on topic. I still believe a report is necessary. Even if the speaker has six minutes, it isn't enough time to make an effective presentation. A two minute speech by Nickie, for example (or anyone else for that matter) would result in a pat on the head by the mayor saying, "Well, yes, we are looking into that. We have hired a panel of experts to decide what, if any changes need to be made, and we will act on their report when it comes out." Perhaps I have not been understanding the threads of these boards. Most of us are not experts. Some of us have a working knowledge of how a fire department should be run. From the initial posts of the CFDffs who posted prior to the memo on the earliest sites, they wanted us to get them help ASAP rather than waiting for NIOSH or OSHA reports (the review panel was not yet an idea). They wanted us, as concerned citizens, to see that some changes were enacted now, rather than six months from now before another ff suffered a LODD or a civilian died in a fire. By speaking (albeit it briefly) before council, AND offering a report, it shows that we are (1) concerned for the surviving CFDffs and the conditions under which they are working (2) have done some research into what we, as citizens feel could be done by the city to improve these conditions.

Posted by Radiowave on August 15, 2007 at 5:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Does anyone have a compilation of the early CFD ff posts that were mentioned and get to me by this weekend or give me the URL which story they were posted - I don't have time to read through all the posts before next Tuesday. I'll be happy to get them in printed form and hand out to the council (anonymously of course but recognizing they are from OUR CFD fire fighters) = that may the answer to my question above and a powerful inside voice.

thanks,

Posted by vesta on August 15, 2007 at 5:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Continued: They wanted us, as civilians, to go to the powers that be and try to get some changes. Most said that if they voiced their opinions, they would be shown the door. As I have said before numerous times, these guys don't make a heck of a lot of money and, without the proper training they should have been given, they don't have a lot of hope working somewhere else. We asked for specifics, and many gave us specifics (hose lines not adequate, chaos at the scene (this was all before tapes came out), Incident Command non existent). Their hands are tied. It is difficult to know now what changes, if any, have been made and whether the changes are for "show" (when the media and panels go away, it is back to "normal"). I didn't know the Charleston 9, but from reading what I have read about them, THEY would not have remained silent (unless they were told to) if nine of their brothers died in this manner. They would have done the same thing--ask for help. I am certain they loved to fight fire. I wouldn't give a tinkers damn for any ff who didn't, but I am sure they also loved life and would not have wanted nine of their brothers to die needlessly.

Posted by upstateFF on August 15, 2007 at 5:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

carry on guys and galls,, your on the right track now!!!!

Posted by fyrmnjim on August 15, 2007 at 5:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Check this out: http://www.abcnews4.com/video.hrb?stat=w...

Everyone there in Charleston needs to copy this and hold this man to is words!

Posted by vesta on August 15, 2007 at 6:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

fyrmnjim: I can't get it to play, but I did hear it last night on the Charleston news.

Posted by charleytowngirl on August 15, 2007 at 6:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Rusty's comments about change come about a little too late, don't you think? He knows his a** is in a sling and NOW he wants to sing a different tune?

The words are nice, let's see if he follows through and makes changes. The general public is gonna be on him like a "spider monkey" if he doesn't do something soon to make it safer for these guys! Don't wait on the reports to come out.....just listen and read what your FF and the public and other FF experts from around the country have been saying about what needs to change!

Do it now! Rusty, borrow a computer if you have to to read these message boards!

Posted by vesta on August 15, 2007 at 6:39 p.m. (Suggest removal)

jim: OK....I can read the article, but can't download the video. The written transcript is: http://www.abcnews4.com/news/stories/080...

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 15, 2007 at 7:05 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I can't get the video to work either...

Posted by Radiowave on August 15, 2007 at 7:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

upstateFF: if you have any friends/family down here in Charleston, now would be a good time to call in a favor to ask them to come to the chs city council meeting next Tue. I just spoke to a second city council member who is willing to support this effort and said the more folks showing up Tue evening, the better! Spread the word.

John - James Island

Posted by vesta on August 15, 2007 at 8:57 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Radiowave: This is the site of all of the P&C articles with comments:

http://www.charleston.net/news/firefight...

The articles are the most current, going back in time. At the bottom, click on "Older articles" to get the first ones which appeared in June. As I recall, and nickie can probably confirm, most of the ffs began making comments the end of June and beginning of July. They would say, "I was there fighting the fire," etc. I am going through them now, and I will attempt to get the names, so that you can click on names and view all postings on all sites by that individual.

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 15, 2007 at 9:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Hopefully the media, in particular the P&C has been made aware that there will be a delegation of concerned citizens at the meeting!

Posted by vesta on August 15, 2007 at 9:22 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Radiowave: I have gone through all of the "Older articles" which would be up to June 29. Here are some posts to look at: ccalder 6-28-07: bo2575 6-28 (son of a retired CFDff). Under the article, "Fire Union Wants Change": firejake 6-29; pointman 6-28, bootlicked 6-30; lexco4529 7-2 and straightstream 7-15. The dates are later than the article. If you find one of their posts, click on their name and it will allow you to contact them or see all of their posts. Under "Sofa Store Lacked Smoke Detectors", chas1 on 6-29. I will begin looking at the more recent articles. Make sure you have permission to use their posts.

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 15, 2007 at 9:33 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Quote Nickie "I can't get the video to work either..."

It may be the version of Windows Media Player you are using, looks like it may have to be version 9 or 10

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 15, 2007 at 9:59 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Bickle,

I run a MAC...not windows...

Posted by vesta on August 15, 2007 at 10:56 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Radiowave: Here are some more posts: "Are City of Charleston FF Techniques too Bold?" cfd13, 7-2; whokilled9 7-2; easy.
"Depts'Ins.Rating Could Be Re-Evaluated": Wilmot. "Experts Question Hose Choice": sclax 7-17; Funandgames 7-18; ssm 7-18; canary 7-21; oldcap 7-23.

Posted by vesta on August 15, 2007 at 11:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Radiowave: This one really caught my attention: The fire that night was brutal. We arrived and everything was a mess. Supply lines, firefighters running around, Rusty screaming. We had zero accountability. No one knew how many guys were missing for a while. There were no checks like other departments. What are they called Par checks or something like that. This wasn’t my first big fire but it was the uncontrolled fire I’ve been at. Only two chiefs seemed to know what was going on and both of them seemed to get their orders reversed too often. They were leading. My chief, a man I’ve loved for a long time, lost it. he does it at fires because he is so excitable. I don’t know about incident command. We just pull up and go in and pump the truck. Ventilation is foreign to me and I’ve never cared because this was the way we do it. Now, seeing how we looked and knowing we didn’t take basic precautions, I’m sick over it. The only thing that went well that night was leaving. Departments in Charleston – mt pleasant, st johns, st Andrews, iopalms. All have chiefs with education. They may not be pretty but they are doing something right. For all of you who are defending rusty remember you are dishonoring Earl, Mike, and each of the 9. Inside your mind you know how the scene was. And its like that at every fire. It was posted on July 26, at 5:09 PM by engineercfd.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 15, 2007 at 11:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Vesta,

I had forgotten that post...that poor guy sounds lost..so sad..

Read your email...

Posted by east3 on August 16, 2007 at 12:33 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Council will probably not want to take a proactive role in running the FD, but the following proposals might sound at least reasonable;
1)A resolution directing the CFD to implement all
recommendations from the board of inquiry.
2)A resolution of intent to fund these changes – could cost $1M / yr for three years, or more.
3)A resolution adopting NIMS as the city’s standard for emergency planning and fire incident command.
4)Administrative paid leave for Chiefs Thomas and Garvin until their handling of the fire as Incident Command can be evaluated following completion of the pending investigations, and appointment of an interim chief of department with the authority to institute immediate progressive change.
5)An emergency resolution directing the CFD to prohibit the use of booster lines until their use can be evaluated following completion of the investigations.
6)An emergency purchase of 5” fire supply hose sufficient to provide each frontline and reserve engine with 10 – 100’ sections, and all necessary adapters.
7)The Public Safety committee to interview all CFD officers and firefighters wishing to speak before them for recommendations on needed changes in the department.
These are the simplest and most immediate changes that can be initiated prior to more detailed recommendations and reports. The Mayor and Chief have now stated they would adopt recommended changes immediately.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 16, 2007 at 12:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Guys, you have all seen my name around since this erupted..I'm not a "stranger", and my motivations are to help you..nothing more, nothing less..I completely understand your reluctance. In the process of calling and trying to get people motivated and aware, I have seen that the roots of the old guard are thick, and deep...met a lot of resistance, and found way more of Rusty's friends via phone than I cared to...I don't feel like I even know who to trust...You guys all look the same (smile)

The idea of meeting with a group was to pass along the information that we have gotten from you guys, the ones in the trenches...making people aware-I spoke with 30 people on the phone today and out of those people, less than FIVE have read the stories or comments online. I told them where they were, sent them links and expressed that it is a necessity for them to listen to the painful tapes...organizing a group, at least on my part(can't speak for anyone else)is not a political advancement tool...it is a public awareness tool..we can't get in council's face standing alone-I have never met a council member, and met the mayor once-think he is a pompous a$$ frankly-my opinion)I don't know Rusty-met him once, didn't seem very remarkable to me(also,my opinion)..

You are all unable to come forth and speak for yourselves, so we thought it would be best to come as a group to show out solidarity for the CFF...If this makes you uncomfortable, we will back off and do as you wish..We are only trying to come up with ideas to help you...PLEASE give us some feedback...Tell us what YOU want from us..you have been here for us, not what can we do for you?

Please be safe and let me know...

Posted by east3 on August 16, 2007 at 1:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

As to other subjects...
Aconcernedcitizen has a series of excellent recommendations. I would only edit one of them. Initial response, especially with 3-person crews, should be at least four engines and a ladder and a BC on structure fires under the current deployment (only 3 ladders staffed, no rescues). That at least provides the NFPA1701 minimum. High hazard, like the SSS, should be five engines and two ladders and two BCs. A second alarm should be three engines and a ladder. At the SSS this would have eliminated all but one of the radio calls in the first hour for extra engines. It would have meant the first engines could have been supplied much sooner. Relocations should all be handled by dispatch, not chiefs on the scene, another source of chatter.

s283r mentions MANPOWER. It is a problem here - we've been cut about 30% in daily staffing since 9/11. But we protect 160,000 people in an urban core city with the same number of FF each day that CFD protects 105,000 with (but over a larger area). We do it with four person crews, so we only run 12 engines and ladders,a rescue, and 2 DCs minimum. But we send what we need. The CFD did not have sufficent manpower at the SSS because their dispatch protocols do not send enough crews initially and there is no system of extra alarms.

If CFD used LDH and sent enough crews intially, there would have been no water problems and a huge part of the radio chatter would have been eliminated as UpstateFF points out. Even if CFD just would lay dual 2.5" lines they would have twice as much water...I was trained to do that in 1975.

To correct a misconcpetion that arose from some videos that showed aerial streams operating - this occurred after the flashover and the collapse and had no bearing on the tragedy. Engine 3 was only assigned to supply Ladder 5 during the Maydays. It was initially one line and a weak stream which appears to be directed at the warehouse. A second line was not laid to Ladder 5 until about 20 minutes after the Maydays. At the time the calls for help came, En12 was supplying En10, and En16 had just turned in the supply to En11. There were no aerials operating yet.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 16, 2007 at 1:12 a.m. (Suggest removal)

East3,

I have written the recommendations down that you provided...Thank you, your diligence in working for our fair city is much appreciated..Can we entice you South of the Mason-Dixon Line, sir? :-)

CFF: is there anything that you see here or don't see here that we need to consider?

Posted by aconcernedcitizen on August 16, 2007 at 8:27 a.m. (Suggest removal)

East 3:

Agreed on uping the response levels while running 3 person crews and no rescue companies. 4 person crews are really a necessity. Keep up the good work in Dayton, have heard good things about the FD up there.

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 16, 2007 at 8:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

East3, great work, proposals to make resolutions is very specific. This is something the politicians should be able to understand. Glad to hear you wrote these ones down Nickie, it's a great start.

Posted by aconcernedcitizen on August 16, 2007 at 8:38 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Another thing on relocating companies, in a deparment I am very familier with elsewere in the Carolina's, they have a set back-up plan, with what stations are to be backed up. Each station has a 1st thru 5th choice for back-up companies, dispatch uses the list to do fill-ins. When things get really busy, such as a major incident or when in storm mode, either an additional B/C or the A/C of operations responds to dispatch to help coordinate things from that end. This is done even if an off duty officer has to be called in.

Posted by aconcernedcitizen on August 16, 2007 at 9:05 a.m. (Suggest removal)

This one is going be expensive from a capital layout prespective, but thought I would post it anyway.

9. Equipment / Apparatus
All engines and ladders shall have all ISO required equipment. Thermal imaging cameras are already in place on all ladder companies, the TIC carried inside when making entry to any structure. As soon as practical TIC units should be purchased for all engines as well. 1 person should be designated to carry the TIC on each unit. B/Cs should have TIC in their vehicle as well, for their use, and to use as a spare in case of failure of a front line units TIC. Rescue companies once formed should carry all necessary rescue equipment, as complement of gas meters (CO, CH4, LPG, etc), TICs, basic HAZMAT equipment, etc. All ladder truck shall be refitted with pumps, and all new ladder truck shall be purchased with pumps. Purchase and staff an additional ladder company to provide better ladder coverage. Consider purchasing quints when purchasing ladder trucks to allow for more flexibility. All new engines should be purchased with a mounted deluge device. All new apparatus purchased shall be purchased with air conditioning. All B/C vehicles need to be set up as a basic mobile command post. SUVs with an appropriate set-up in the cargo area are an idea that work in other departments. Purchase, equip and keep supplied a rehab vehicle to be brought to any working incident. Rehab vehicle should be large enough to have an air-conditioned / heated rehab area inside for personnel in need of its services.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 16, 2007 at 10:24 a.m. (Suggest removal)

EVERYONE:

Just found out about this article, and I think it would behoove you all to read it...not as a finger pointing issue, but to further understand the consensus within the fire service:

http://cms.firehouse.com/content/article...

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 16, 2007 at 10:41 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think you all are doing a great job. I have to say that living in the upstate of SC,I was under the impression before that CFD was the leader in the fire service for the state.After all, they were the first to recieve ISO Class 1 certification.I was really surprised to learn that the trucks do not have LDH.Its obvious that whoever in the department that is responsible for ordering trucks has good taste, now they only need a little common sense to go along with it.Its easy to be a "Monday Morning Quarterback" in these situations.As firefighters, we are good at that. There's always something that we'd do differently.I think its obvious now more than ever that the guys at CFD are hardball firefighters.We've seen and heard now that they do an awesome job with limited resources and poor leadership.I'm more than sure that the guys on the trucks are not the problem.I think the brass in the department are too caught up in the historic aspect of Charleston and are resisting change in order to "Carry on Tradition." Unfortunatly, there are now 9 men in Charleston's History Books that really shouldn't be there.I think there are a few very inexpensive things that could be done that would have prevented this.First, there is an obvious break down in the Incident Command System.I would be hard-pressed to even say they used ICS after listening to the tapes.Batt 4 was first onscene and never called command. I haven't listened closely but I NEVER heard anyone call command. FEMA has FREE training on the new national standard. (NIMS=National Incident Managment System)and also ICS. This system stesses the importance of interoperabilityHere's the link for details:
http://training.fema.gov/EMIWeb/nimsOthe...
This is now a requirment to recieve FEMA Fire Act grants. We all know that leadership is the foundation of any good organization.That is also key on the fireground. A solid ICS goes a long way. A second component to ICS is accountability.There are plenty of systems out there to help with this. Most of them are inexpensive.Here's a link to just one: http://www.websoftsolutions.net/product_... Some departments have made thier own systems. One method is lamenated tags. At the beginning of your shift you simply hang your tag somewhere on the truck. When you get to a scene, those tags are given to the IC. This can be done for pennies.

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 16, 2007 at 10:42 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Next, water supply was a major issue. There are several methods for establishing water supply. The method that is most common in the Upstate is that the second-in engine catches the hydrant and lays a line to the attack truck. There are other methods, but this allows for the first-in truck to concentrate on fire attack. Regardless of the method, LDH hose would have helped tremendously. Refitting all of CFD's truck with LDH would be expensive but well worth every penny. Next, its obvious from the tapes that CFD's portable radios are equipped with Emergency Indicator Buttons.(EIB)This is what Michael French activated while trying to call his Mayday.Its hard to know how you'll react in that situation.That's why All firefighters should practice calling a Mayday.I would say that French knew how to call a Mayday.A Mayday should consist of specific information. Most firefighter rescue courses use the acronym LUNAR. Location, Unit you are assigned to, Name or Number, your assignment and resources required to be rescued. French hit most of these. He also hit his EIB but due to all the chatter on the radio it took dispatch a few minutes to notify command of this. There are portables out there that alarm when a EIB has been activated and have a display telling which radio was activated. I wonder if CFD has those models? Firefighters should be trained to cease all radio trafic when a Mayday has been called. his did not happen. Cheif Thomas never even heard any of the calls for help. I wonder if anyone onscene did? Last of all, I think its obvious that its time for a change in the leadership. I think CFD needs a fresh mind that will embrace technology and new strategy.We all like to talk about the old days and how it used to be done. While that tradition is important, it doesn't have to stay that way. We get smarter and learn lessons over time. I'd say its time to move foward now. To the men at CFD: Know that we think of you daily and are behind you 100%. Hang in there brother.

Posted by vesta on August 16, 2007 at 11:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

nickie: the Harry Carter article was EXCELLENT. He writes logically, concisely, and with a great sense of humor : "rule with an iron hand (and a wooden head)" LOL.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 16, 2007 at 11:30 a.m. (Suggest removal)

First Due,

Thank you for explaining the issues in lay terms, it helps those of us outside the loop so to speak the opportunity to formulate questions to you all...for instance:

Why when a FF hits his orange button does the call first have to go to dispatch and THEN to the Chief or IC Command? Doesn't that seem a little like going around your a$$ to scratch your elbow? As we saw, it was several seconds, possibly actually MINUTES that if a RIT team had been in place they could have already attempted to locate him...I know a RIT might not have worked that night, but in any situation besides...

It seems to me like there should be some instant "gratification", for lack of better word, for the on scene personnel to be able to hear it when it happens...an alarm on a truck, a signal in the IC's ear, something...

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 16, 2007 at 11:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Vesta,

I did have to chuckle as well...in the midst of his humor seems to come great wisdom...

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 16, 2007 at 11:54 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Our dept. uses two different models of portable radios. The firefighters carry a basic radio equipped with an EIB. All officers and the RIT team are equipped with a radio that has an external display. When an EIB is activated those radio go into alarm. The officer can look at the screen and see which radio has activated its EIB. Our radios are identified by truck and position on the truck. For instance, Engine 1 OIC and so on. Dispatch being alerted is only for confirmation or back up. In the SSS case, it was the only notification. We have RIT set up at every incident where there is an IDLH (immediate danger to life and health). Our rit consists of a RIT pack, irons, flash lights, TIC, a RIT officers radio and other various equipment. The RIT officer monitors the radio and if a Mayday is called they don't hesitate to jump into action. Does CFD have a RIT plan?

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 16, 2007 at 12:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

FirstDue,

From what those inside the department have said they do not have RIT in place...From everything I have been told by these men it probably would not have assisted in this case, but in others, I am sure it would be beneficial...

Further question...I understand that these RIT alarms are supposed to also go off when someone is lying motionless for a certain amount of time..(3 secs?) Is this how ALL RIT radios work or not? If not, they need them...How much are they?

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 16, 2007 at 12:44 p.m. (Suggest removal)

You have two different things here. All SCBA's are required to be fitted with a PASS alarm according to NFPA 1982. These alarms are activated either by pressing a button or by lying motionless for a specified amount of time. (usually around 30 seconds) You also have portable radios (also know as walkies depending on what part of the country you are from!) that are equipped with EIB. This is activated by pressing the red button on the radio. Most firefighter rescue classes teach you to press the button, call a Mayday, wait for it to be acknowledged, give LUNAR, LUNAR is repeated back and confirmed and then the firefighter activates his PASS device. There are several men in the state that are excellent instructors for RIT. Maybe CFD should give them a call.

Posted by aconcernedcitizen on August 16, 2007 at 12:47 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nikie;

I think you are mixing up the emergency button (orange button on the radio) with the PASS device ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PASS_device... ) the fire fighters wear. The PASS device emitts a high pitched squealing or beeping sound if activated manually or automaticly after a set time of no movement. The emergency button or EIB is activated on the firefighters radio to indicate an emergency situation to dispatch, command and others. Some radios do have the capibility to have man down switches added, but it can lead to many problems, and lots of false alarms (All the department I know of they tried them, did away with them quickly) I.E the radio is sitting on the kitchen table and is knocked over, the EIB will activate. Too many false alarm lead to complancy. Does Charleston FD use PASS devices?

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 16, 2007 at 4:49 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Nickie, just to explain a couple of acronymns

PASS Personal Alert Safety System

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PASS_device...

RIT Rapid Intervention Team sometimes called RIC or Rapid Intervention Crew

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 16, 2007 at 4:51 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Sorry Concerned didn't notice you posted the PASS link already, till it was to late, hope y'all forgive me. :-)

Posted by vesta on August 16, 2007 at 6:28 p.m. (Suggest removal)

OK, can someone answer this question: After the windows were knocked out in the front, you could hear and steady sound which I originally thought was the sound an alarm system would make on a building if, for example, you knocked the windows out or pried the door open (i.e. a burglar alarm). In fact, was this sound (after the windows were knocked out) a PASS device?

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 16, 2007 at 7:04 p.m. (Suggest removal)

OK...thanks guys for clarifying...my note cards are full, need more...

So...once the alarm goes off, either by the PASS system or the EIB, WHO is supposed to get that alert? I think it was mentioned that some departments have the IC with a radio screen that shows the alert and the person it applies to? I assume this does not exist on Charleston? What is the name of that system, please, and where I can look for find a proposed cost...is this something that you CFF think would benefit by?

Vesta, I heard that too, and assumed it was a burglar alarm of some sort...almost sounded like a nearby car alarm??

These RIT team instructors: Are they just men in other departments that hire out to train, or are they part of the SC Fire Academy?

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 16, 2007 at 7:20 p.m. (Suggest removal)

WHO gets the alert depends on how the department has things set up. Most radios purchased today are enconded with an identifier for that particular radio. If you've ever heard a "chirp" before or after a radio transmission, then you've heard this technology. Our department, for instance is set up so that the EIB activation is alarmed in Dispatch and also EVERY radio carried by an officer in our department. When and EIB activation occurs, an audible alarm will sound and any officer can (and should) look at their screen. An alarm also sounds and a visual alarm (a flashing red window)is transmitted to dispatch. The display will read "Alarm Engine 1 OIC" (or which every radio it is). The radio that the firefighters carry does not have the screen but we are able to hear an intermittent "chirp" until the person pressing the EIB keys up to talk. Here is a link to the radio that our officers carry: http://www.motorola.com/governmentandent...
The instructors I was speaking of are members of state fire depts that are also instructors with SCFA. They teach a national course called "Rescuing the Rescuer". Every FF needs this!

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 16, 2007 at 7:34 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Good idea FirstDue...they should have this class...All of this training we are hearing about...can this be done locally, or do we need to request these men are sent someone for this training? Obviously not all FF go to big academies, correct? So there have to be men and women out there that come to them? Someone OUTSIDE the city grip, perhaps?

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 16, 2007 at 7:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Go check out this video. While it has its problems, it doesn't get much better than this in the field. The men will come in house and do the training.

Posted by vesta on August 16, 2007 at 7:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Here is some more research on CFDffs comments: "Firefighters Goal:Never Again", straightstream 7-19 7-23; Wilmot 7-19.
"Lapse In Protection Concerns Some Experts": Sec wind7 7-26; chasff 7-26; croft31 7-26; cfdcaptain 7-26; engineercfd: 7-26. This is the article in which comments were made about "ratting out" the CFDffs who were posting to the boards. Still working on this end of the project.

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 16, 2007 at 8:30 p.m. (Suggest removal)

http://www.firehouse.com/videonetwork/in...
that's the link for the video

Posted by vesta on August 16, 2007 at 8:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

More research. The article "Heat Sensors Weren't Used in Fatal Fire": whokilled9 7-29; laddercfd 7-29 *; engineercfeast 7-29;chasffa 7-30*; thetruth 7-30; charlestoncaptain 7-31; bravestcfd 7-31. ** these comments are definitive pleas to the citizens to speak out for the ffs. I thought they had the gag memo imposed by this date, but apparently not.

Posted by aconcernedcitizen on August 16, 2007 at 8:35 p.m. (Suggest removal)

I believe the FD in Charleston uses XTS-2500 handhelds from Motorola. They are capable of displaying the emergency ID information with the proper FlashPort upgrades from Motorola. See the link below for information from Motorola on the XTS-2500.

http://www.motorola.com/governmentandent...

Posted by fyrmnjim on August 16, 2007 at 8:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Concerned, I like all your points with one exception, boosters. Get rid of them all. Do not leave it to chance. Leaving the boosters on is akin to keepng beer in the refigerator of a recovering alcoholic. Remove then temptation. Give them to the parks dept to water the gardens with. Until the engines can be refitted with preconnect crosslays you can temporarily mount the 1 3/4" to the sideboards and connect them to one of the side discharges.

This is my list of priorities for the first changes that need to be implemented immediately.

1) Obtain allnew PPE for every firefighter that meets or exceeds NFPA 1971.

2) Learn and implement an IC system.

3) Get an accountability and PAR system, NOW! You can improve it later, just get it going now.

4) Trash the boosters, replace them with 1 3/4" as stated above til they can be permanently mounted and preconnected.

5) Get LDH!! Many companies have "all sizes in stock, ready to ship".....

The rest should be implemented as soon as can be accomplished, but these 5 need to be done ASAP.

JMHO

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 16, 2007 at 9:07 p.m. (Suggest removal)

A lot of departments are carrying a "Trash Line" in a compartment on the extended front bumper.(I noticed the Charleston Pumps have an extended bumper). This line is pre-piped with 100' of 1 3/4 hose. Ours is also connected to the on board foam system.

This line is easy to deploy for car fires, trash bins, grass fires etc.

We also have two 1 3/4" crosslays for structure fires as well as a preconnected 2 1/2 on the hose bed.

Hose can be added very quickly to the trash line to make it a full structural firefighting line if an extra is needed.

The beauty of this line is the ease of deploying as well as the ease of reloading.

Every piece of hose we use is synthetic as opposed to cotton-jacketed so all hose can be reloaded immediately or right after cleaning if required. No hose towers required!

Posted by vesta on August 16, 2007 at 9:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

And, finally, the two above in this article and board on 8-14 by Wilmot. In reviewing these posts, it is once again brought home that these CFDffs have asked, and in some cases, begged for our help. They have risked much to tell us what happened that night.

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 16, 2007 at 9:36 p.m. (Suggest removal)

fyrmnjim,
I disagree with you on the boosters. They have their place and are often very useful. Are you saying CFD's engine do not have preconnects? No wonder those guys pull boosters on room and contents. If I had to put a line together at every fire I'd pull the booster too. All of our engines are equipped with a booster reel, 1 200' 2 1/2 preconnect, 2 200' 1 3/4 preconnects and a 100' 1 3/4 "trash line" on the front bumber. Why would you not have preconnects???

Posted by Boosterhose on August 16, 2007 at 9:50 p.m. (Suggest removal)

There 2- 1 1/2 preeconnects 250' or more on the rear of each pumper.

Posted by aconcernedcitizen on August 17, 2007 at 8:37 a.m. (Suggest removal)

I think that the boosters still have a place for certain operations, but nothing that can’t be taken care of with a pre-connect “trash line” 1.75” line on the bumper. I wrote the booster verbiage kind of ambiguous for this reason, “may be retained if space permits.” I know that the department up here started ordering new apparatus with out booster reels, and the firefighters really didn’t like losing a tool in the box, so they added them back in the last round of apparatus orders. They don’t use them for structure fire, or even engine compartment fires. They pull the 1.75” for those, but I understand that it makes brush fires, grass fires, trash fires, and some overhaul operations much easier. But the boosters are absolutely optional equipment. Fyrmnjim, I hear good things about the FD up in Dayton, so ya’ll keep up the good work.

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 17, 2007 at 9:08 a.m. (Suggest removal)

If they have 2 1 1/2 preconnects on each pumper then I'd say they need to change the hose out to 1 3/4. Its amazing the gallonage you can get out of that extra 1/4". I've said it before but I'm astonished at how far behind the times the CFD is. We all know the things that need to happen. As I said before,its easy to be a Monday Morning Quarterback. I think that the #1 priority on the list for your meeting should be a call for new leadership. I think if you fix that, the rest of it will fall into place, as long as the city supplies the funds. Budgets are always a major hurdle in most departments. I would say the the City of Charleston does not have a cash flow problem so that should not be an issue.

Posted by bickleseagrave on August 17, 2007 at 10:31 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Booster lines should not even be considered for any vehicle fires these days with the alternative fuels(Propane, NG etc) as well as some of the exotic metals being used. I have seen cases where the electric fuel pump has shorted out during a fire and continued spewing fuel. Forget the booster reels, spend the money on some more worthwhile equipment.

Posted by vesta on August 17, 2007 at 10:56 a.m. (Suggest removal)

FIRSTDUE432: "As I said before,its easy to be a Monday Morning Quarterback. I think that the #1 priority on the list for your meeting should be a call for new leadership. I think if you fix that, the rest of it will fall into place, as long as the city supplies the funds. Budgets are always a major hurdle in most departments. I would say the the City of Charleston does not have a cash flow problem so that should not be an issue." I heartily agree. If the mayor didn't bat an eyelash to buy the SSS site, they can afford to update their fire department. New leadership is a necessity, from the mayor down through the high ranks of the CFD. I sense there is some strong behind the scenes political pressure being levied while the panel is in town.

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 17, 2007 at 11:16 a.m. (Suggest removal)

bickleseagrave, I have been a "victim" of an electric fuel pump shorting out. After we had the fire knocked down we were attempting to disconnect the battery. In that attempt the wiring harness arched and the fuel ignited. The fuel had ran downhill with the water runoff toward a house and ignited. We went into a very defensive attack quickly. Luckily, our department SOG demands that we pull an 1 3/4" on every car fire so we were able to stop the fire quickly before further damage. I don't think booster lines, or any equipment for that matter are the problem. I think the problem lies in department policies and leadership. Can someone tell me when the next city election is?

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 17, 2007 at 11:36 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Vesta and FirstDue,

I have to agree..as much as I would like to say I have faith in the system, I don't...I am still receiving information that there is a quest to quiet people, even when the investigators are in town..Men are turning on each other, which is just what the a$$es that be WANT them to do...the powers that be have divided and conquered...They are already half way to winning...there is no trust inside or out, they don't know who they can trust so they feel they are better to stand alone...Until certain people are gone, and OUTSIDE leadership comes in, nothing will change.

To the FF....some of you have given me information that I have held on to, I am still working for YOUR interests. SOME of you are working on betraying me as well...Go ahead. You will help no one, and possibly harm your brothers in the process...You should be ashamed to use a tragedy as this to advance your interests within the department. Fool me once, shame on you...Fool me twice, shame on me-IT WON'T HAPPEN AGAIN...Key lesson....Don't bite the hands that feed you, you may end up needing us in the long run...and you will...This department is seriously in trouble, and it places many more men in danger...I tried to be nasty to get the point across, I have tried to do as others asked and be politically correct in an effort to help...Look at the boards, the general public is weeding thin...Why? They see the betrayals from within and are not going to place themselves in that situation...

If there is any hope left, you guys are going to have to band together, it is the only way...

Posted by vesta on August 17, 2007 at 11:40 a.m. (Suggest removal)

FIRSTDUE432: November 4. So far, there are four candidates, including the current mayor, which divides the votes. I would rather have seen it one on one. Unfortunately for the city ffs, that date falls between now and the release of the NIOSH report, and the OSHA report. Once the current mayor is re-elected, he can go on doing what he darn well pleases. The reports will come out afterwards, and he will make the politically correct statement something to the effect, "we respect these reports and we are working on the recommendations they have given us. It will take time." In other words, "situation back to 'normal' ". This horrific fire and the deaths of these brave nine men will rapidly fade into the background. I am seeing too many "political" occurrences happening right now to lead me to believe otherwise. Sorry, Oldfric.

Posted by vesta on August 17, 2007 at 12:38 p.m. (Suggest removal)

So, what did everyone think about the news broadcast just televised?

Posted by vesta on August 17, 2007 at 1:10 p.m. (Suggest removal)

OK, I just read firefighter hourly, and, I listened carefully to what the panel members, the mayor and Chief Thomas said, and I certainly didn't come away with the idea that Riley is going to fire the chief now or ever. Obviously, if that was the case, they wouldn't have (1) had Thomas at this news broadcast or (2) had any questions addressed to him. I did enjoy his comment, in response to the first question addressed to Thomas, about how, 'you said if you had to do it over, you would do everything exactly the same'Thomas said: "I have said all along we are going to change things...." hmmmm.

Posted by FIRSTDUE432 on August 17, 2007 at 1:16 p.m. (Suggest removal)

fill me in vesta

Posted by vesta on August 17, 2007 at 1:26 p.m. (Suggest removal)

FIRSTDUE432: firefighterhourly.com has a brief synopsis of the newscast. The mayor began by saying that this panel was hired to help the fire department remain as the top fire department in the country...a fire department with a #1 ISO rating. The mayor introduced the panel, the chief, who was there, and made a few comments about the fact that there would be changes in personnel, in equipment and procedures, but doing these changes would take a very long time. He introduced the panel members and allowed each of them to speak. The spokesman briefly outlined the weaknesses of the department, which included almost all of the issues we have discussed (IC, equipment, including hoses, training) and some things we did not discuss (lack of manpower). The mayor said that new positions would be put into place FROM WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT, to make sure these changes would be made, to help with the safety issue, and to help with the training issue and the PR issue. (continued)

Posted by vesta on August 17, 2007 at 1:32 p.m. (Suggest removal)

(continued) The chief thanked another panel which they had assembled to help the expert panel. The former being retired CFDffs. Then, the mayor gave the opportunity for questions. The first question, from a female, was, "Chief, you have said since the SSS fire that if you had to do it over, you would fight that fire in exactly the same way. Since this panel's ideas, do you feel differently?" (I am paraphrasing). The chief said, "I have said since the beginning that we are willing to listen and make changes." ffjim: You had mentioned you would be here until it quit looking like a snow job in the middle of a hurricane. LOL You're going to be around for a LONG time, fella.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 17, 2007 at 1:46 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Vesta,

I missed the televised report!!! Grrrr...

The Chief said he said WHAT?????????? He actually said he always acknowledged that he would make changes as necessary?? OMG....like those of us following this story haven't read, seen and heard him say to the contrary?????

That's ok...we know the truth...wheels are turning, public knows what is real and what is political BS...what is Riley's PR person writing speeches for Rusty now as well? They MUST have gotten the pages mixed up...

Posted by vesta on August 17, 2007 at 2:08 p.m. (Suggest removal)

nickie: Yeah...the only thing missing was "we're gunna stan tall....we will never forget....like 9-11, we will never forget." What bothered me was that, although the panel admitted that training WAS needed....Riley is going to let Rusty appoint FROM WITHIN key positions, like PR, a Safety Officer and someone to oversee training.....more of the Rangers to make certain things get done right. It also bothered me that there are some, after hearing this, who posted on ffhourly that it sounded like the chief was going to be fired! He obviously would NOT have been at that newscast if that was the case. Plus the mayor kept saying, "Now, I am going to leave this up to the chief....I am going to leave that up to the chief...."

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 17, 2007 at 3:55 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Vesta,

Then THAT will be our answer IF we don't demand something else!

Posted by s283r on August 18, 2007 at 7:51 a.m. (Suggest removal)

It sounded like everyone was playing nice for a couple of day's, and on the right track, but now it sounds like you guy's want Chief Thomas to lose his job? Do you want change or do you want a linching? If you want people to be fired, can you explain to me why? Is it because they all have 25 plus years on the job and you think they are stuck in their way's? Well, if that's the case you better start getting rid of all the Captains, Engineers, and fireman that have 25 plus years. Don't you think the right thing to do is bring the entire fire dept up to speed on things from the top down rather than fire people? IMPROVE OR LINCH?

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 18, 2007 at 8:19 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Scott,

Respectfully speaking, of course..I have reason to believe that Rusty is still trying to control the situation even through the investigation...IF I get permission to release that information, I will certainly do so...

In the mean time, here is my thought...The men of this department are clear in their view that they feel Rusty is not the man they trust or believe in to lead this department...He made many many statements in the beginning that he would not change, nor did he see the need to change...Now, with all fairness, it IS possible the man has changed his mind, BUT...he has never come back publicly to say he is sorry, or made mistakes, etc. NOW he said he was ALWAYS in support of changes to be made...which one is it? We, as citizens, aren't stupid, Scott...he is changing his story daily..to me, that makes me thing he is unable to be trusted in his position as well..same as many of the men feel, he isn't trustworthy.

Look, you can lead a department with discipline, but you shouldn't lead it with fear and manipulation. You may have been a lucky one when you were there, Scott...he apparently liked you...not everyone is as lucky...more are not lucky...

Lynching him is not the goal...he would be much better to retire..lynching in the South is not a good thing..There are times when it is best to fold and leave...In any other capacity, this man would have been fired...

Improvements in the general consensus will come, but there needs to be a serious house cleaning event in order to effect serious change...Not just Rusty, several of the old guard need to go...We CAN work with Riley if necessary, but it is time to weed out some of that legacy.

No offense, Scott, public opinion and FF opinion

Posted by fyrmnjim on August 18, 2007 at 8:24 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Scott,
Does Rusty have the capacity to change? In the month or so i've been following this snow job, I haven't ssen it in him. From what I've heard from the CFD'ers, he hasn't changed since he's been in charge. The rest of the fire world has evolved but CFD seems to be stuck in the 70's. And now, 2 months after 9 men have died and a panel of experts have recommended changes, he has an Epiphany? I don't think so.

In order for changes to really occur down there, new blood needs to be transfused into the dept.

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 18, 2007 at 8:31 p.m. (Suggest removal)

Scott, there is a lot of bad blood in that department...we can read it...Someone has done a fantastic job of attempting to divide and conquer those men to keep them under control..Who wields that much power? One man only...I honestly believe that "rangers" as they call them are asked, ordered, encouraged, to come forth in the public forum in an effort to provide spin control, and forge discontent and paranoia among the ranks...What a fantastic way to control the masses-divide and conquer...If the men can manage to get themselves past the fear of standing up they might actually realize that if they stand together they are safe from harm..The CFD is well under the needed manpower to operate safely, and if they were to stand together, NOTHING COULD happen...the CFD cannot afford to fire anyone, and you can only transfer so many men to one crap station..

The men are strong enough to be heard, they are just not thinking clearly enough to do that right now, and until that happens, the running of the department will be status quo...I wish I could believe that he would turn his tide and lead the men, but I do not...It is partly his personality, partly the culture of the department...

I FEEL that if he truly cared for the department and these men left inside he would step out and let an outside man, from another state, come in and fix the mess..if for no other reason than to cool the jets of the men inside...give them an outlet, allow them to relax, learn and succeed...THAT'S the most important change of all..the men, Scott, not Rusty.

IMHO Nickie Garbeil

Posted by upstateFF on August 19, 2007 at 5:13 p.m. (Suggest removal)

the p&c spread in the paper today was very telling for the general public...officials will have to make some changes in light of the coverage..
wore my f.d. tee shirt in chucktown this weekend and recieved numerous comments and inquiries!!
word is out guys... and folks are looking to the city to make a lot of changes.. some now and more later...
stopped by a station and (uptown where 3 is stationed) observed the various banners, ribbons and even a helment with words memorializing the fallen brothers...

The guys were busy doing their thing... but you could'nt help but notice the absence of large diameter hose,,a deck gun and other more modern items that will soon have to be addressed..!!!! oh.. the booster reel was on top and just shining and ithcing to be pressed into service..

i hope as all this unfolds..... the good people of the cfd will keep their heads up and know that in the not too distant future... the city will have to address some of the obvious shotcomings in the department... all the while knowing..the public.. and their brother f.f. from all over love em , and wish them well....

Posted by nickiegarbeil on August 20, 2007 at 12:28 a.m. (Suggest removal)

Looking back over the many posts over the last couple of months, I came across one in the process that mentioned the fact that Car 1's FATHER is currently being paid by the city to advise them on equipment purchases and such...Don't ask me which story I would have to dig for it again...can anyone elaborate on that please?

How far exactly DOES this family tree go? And as a concerned citizen, I want to know if these implementations will be effected by HIS input to the Mayor????