Radio and telephone communications from sofa store fire released
Updated 07:13 p.m., August 10, 2007
Audio clips
Sofa Super Store Communications
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: A
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: B
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: C
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: D
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: E
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: F
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: G
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: H
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: I
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: J
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: K
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: L
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: M
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: N
- Sofa Super Store Fire Communications: O
Radio transmissions from the deadly Sofa Super Store fire June 18 reveal how the blaze suddenly overwhelmed Charleston firefighters as they struggled with low water pressure and confusion about who was still in the burning structure and who had escaped.
The city had withheld the transmissions, which may include some of the firefighters' last words, as state and federal investigators probed the fire's cause and the department's response.
The transmissions begin with routine calls to the fire department and dispatchers sending trucks from several stations.
Transcripts of the transmissions show how the situation escalated.
At 7:14 p.m., a firefighter says: "We need an inch and a half inside of this building to the rear on the left side I mean the right side."
Another responds, "10-4 copy going to the rear right side."
At 7:16 p.m., a firefighter says: "I got a fire inside the rear of the building that's walking its way right onto, into the showroom."
Several transmissions show firefighters talking about water pressure and the need for more:
At 7:23 p.m., a firefighter says: "Give me 50 more pounds on the supply line!"
"Fifty pounds," another responds.
"50 more on the supply line."
"Affirmative, 50 pounds."
The situation turns chaotic at about 7:30 p.m., with officials calling for ambulances, and Chief Rusty Thomas asking everyone to stay off the radio.
At about 7:30 p.m., one firefighter can be heard saying in a muffled voice: "Mayday! Car 1. Please tell my wife that ..."
"Go ahead," Thomas says.
"I love you," the firefighter says clearly.
Thomas says seconds later: "Everybody's out of the back?"
A firefighter answers: "That's right, chief, we got them out of here."
Thomas: "Is everybody out where you at?"
Firefighter: "No sir, we still got guys in there."
Thomas: "Everybody stay off the radio :"
Firefighter: ":. 10-4, Chief we just got one man out."
At 7:32 p.m., a dispatcher tells the chief that an electronic distress alarm that all firefighters wear has been activated.
Dispatcher: "Car 1, engineers on ladder 5, emergency button has been activated.
"That's Michael French :"
Then Thomas can be heard yelling, "... Everybody abandon the building!"
At 7:36 p.m., a firefighter says, "Car 11 to Engine 16, we need more pressure on the supply line!"
Thomas says again, "... Everybody stay out of the building!"
The city gave the firefighters' families an opportunity to hear the tapes several hours before they were released Friday afternoon.
Hear the combined communications split into segments below.
These transmissions are unedited, except for the city removing phone numbers and addresses. Some material may be disturbing.
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Comments
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
This will be very interesting. A lot of information should come out of listening to the communications. This will should put an end to a lot of the conjecture floating around.
August 10, 2007 at 3:24 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
The excerpts of the tapes are out: OK, can we say there is a failure from the top to the bottom and all involved utilities. In a million years I never expected that the response from the SCE&G for a major fire or for a power truck to be turned away. LACK OF PLANNED COMMUNICATION, ORGANIZATION, AND RESPONSE. Not just the CFD, but the CPD as well and SCE&G. Confusion, lack of response (power), unbelievably unacceptable! Wen a mass incident occurs why does the emergency organization have to REPEAT their call to the power company? Why was this truck turned away from responding sooner?
And the tally card fills up...just adds to the questions, while spreading the blanket of accountability to more agencies.
Does anyone know if there is a mass casualty training in the city, if that is what it is called, that pre-plans large incidents like this with a combined cooperation of power, water, police, fire, and rescue?
Part of the problem is the lack of ability to effectively communicate (or the appearance therof, with other agencies directly(police and fire, fire and power, etc) I understand there is over 7 hours of tapes that are being released, so I am anxious to hear the rest.
More of my "armchair" quarterbacking...unbelievable!
August 10, 2007 at 6:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
THISMUSTSTOP (anonymous) says...
where is the audio from the fire scene itself in the first hour? Who cares what the dispatcher is doing? I want to hear what the firefighter are saying in the first hour. If this is all that you have, then you have nothing.
August 10, 2007 at 7:10 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Agreed. I am asking this as well...maybe they are still editing and posting them? I heard no one from inside at all..Possibly at family requests? Bless those souls...
August 10, 2007 at 7:14 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
nickiegarbeil said:
"Not just the CFD, but the CPD as well and SCE&G. Confusion, lack of response (power), unbelievably unacceptable"
This is normal. Average time for an FD to get SCE&G is 45 min to 1 hour. If a storm or other incident is going on it can be hours. FD requests are put in line with the other calls.
August 10, 2007 at 7:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
I listened to the first two tapes and have several comments: (1) I cannot believe that Chief Genius took at least half an hour to "wonder" if the natural gas was shut off. It is a miracle they weren't all blown to kingdom come. (2) Lack of water pressure from using booster lines was quite evident. (3) Most obvious was lack of Incident Command, especially when the chief finally wondered (after being prompted) where some of his men were. HELLO--accountability tags, and organized IC would have answered this immediately, instead of "French is in the bucket on Ladder 5". Response: No, he isn't up here, Chief." I think the P&C ought to devote a special edition to typing out these tapes so that the public can read them!
August 10, 2007 at 7:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Ohhowthemightywillfall (anonymous) says...
THISMUSTSTOP AND CVS,
You are right on track once again the real audio that needs to be heard is once again hidden or being kept away from the public. If the family requested it not to be played i'm cool, but if not release it. " SO OTHERS MIGHT LIVE".
August 10, 2007 at 7:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Ohhhhh, there are WAY more employees in need of some PROFESSIONALISM training than originally thought...Move over Chiefs, you have TRAINING partners!!
Dispatchers: how about saying this... "NO COMMENT!!!" Carrying on a conversation with reporters having a good day in the midst of an emergency...Save the small talk to the mall, keep it professional and to a minimum...
Isn't there a separate line for fielding calls from media and concerned citizens? How about a PR person????? Dispatchers should not be fielding these calls...
You are right Vesta, no tags??? And 'someone'-I don't need to point on that one- needs to spit their pluff mudd out before transmitting over the air...too many times having to repeat orders and requests. Is this a radio issue, or a speaking ability issue?
August 10, 2007 at 7:44 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Vesta,
Sounded on one tape like a line burst...FF: is this common on big fires to have a line burst? Is this attributed to the line size and the amount of water they are trying to force through????? Example: Big water, little hose, too much pressure?
Someone radio-ing to ask for a repeat transmission that someone inside called out that they were off the line and lost? I didn't hear follow up transmission confirming this..Didn't hear Mayday call, no interior FF transmissions...
Edit? Non-released audio by investigators (understandable if so)?, possibly family request...Obviously not complete transmissions.
August 10, 2007 at 7:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
Nickie:
It's called over driving the microphone. He's yelling in to the radio or talking to close, or in all likelyhood both. It causes the audio to become uninteligible.
August 10, 2007 at 7:53 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
aconcernedcitizen,
I have no doubt that this is an issue...this is a point that should be addressed in emergency drills in the future...It should not take emergency personnel THAT long to receive assistance from a utility company...it appears that the incompetence is contagious... Thanks for explaining the response time of utilities...
Having just been released it is understandable that the transmissions are incomplete, but they could have explained the reasoning behind the lack of the first tape..THAT is the key tape. P&C needs to clarify in their story. I do appreciate the info we have thus far, but this isn't cutting it completely. Is this a "throw the raw meat to the dogs" approach to keep us quiet? Are we to "chew" on those excerpts and be satisfied? Give the children a candy bar and they will stop screaming????? WRONG!
August 10, 2007 at 7:58 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
CVS,
don't worry about typos..spellcheckgeek, I mean Codegeek (grin)is lurking in the sidelines...:-)
August 10, 2007 at 8 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldfric07 (anonymous) says...
The lack of sectors is staggering.
No central command because people are calling each other by names. If you have one command post you can run things through the OFFICERS assigned to take care of water supply, safety (no safety officers), logistics, et al.
The first PAR wasn't for a very long time though they knew people were missing because Car 1 told chief Ronnie to come and talk to him about it between 9 and 10.
Water supply was an issue as well. Providing water to aerials (plural) requires large lines.
SCE&G is/has been a huge problem.
They released these tapes on a Friday because it's an age old trick. It's the slowest news cycle (read memoirs of Presidential Spokesman)so they figure spread is slower. By Monday the national news will be on to something else.
August 10, 2007 at 8 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Fric,
Thanks for the explanation..Keep them coming...Are the radios a problem? Not everyone sounded like that...If we can't understand him, we can assume no one on scene can...Also...these tapes may yield SOME important information, but like you pointed out Fric, what discussions took place on scene out of radio transmission is forever "their secret"...
Hey, did you notice the "largemouth" called into dispatch identifying himself...Ranger-ing from a distance-must be difficult to maintain the identities that way...AND, by the post on the former page, I thought THEY called him? Hmmmmmm...
I guess their old trick isn't going to work this time...have yet to let this go away and have no intention to...
August 10, 2007 at 8:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
I've been listening to emergency (mainly fire department) communications for many years. The lack of radio discipline is shocking. Is this standard for Charleston FD?
August 10, 2007 at 8:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
Car 1 needs to spit out his microphone. I think he swollowed it. That is the worst overdriving I've heard.
August 10, 2007 at 8:08 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Someone said the dispatch records are open to the public(other than this one being investigated at the moment)...Wonder if they are accessible to compare?
August 10, 2007 at 8:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
Ohhowthemightywillfall (anonymous) says...
nickiegarbeil
You raise some good points. This audio tapes not only exposes The Chiefs lack of ability to lead which Mayor Riley professed on t.v.he was such a leader and just a general lack of radio discipline.
August 10, 2007 at 8:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
Nikie:
In the city I live in they delete the tape every 30 days (Unless they are kept for an investigation, training, etc). You would need to find a major fire with in that time frame to compare too. Also would have to file FOIA to get them.
You might could find some one that is recording the audio personally on their computer. Some radio and fire department enthausist record radio communications on a regular basis.
August 10, 2007 at 8:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldfric07 (anonymous) says...
The first hour was released because the P and C has a transcript above. They must be holding off on it.
August 10, 2007 at 8:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Thank you Ohmighty,
Honestly what I think it confirms more than just that is a COMPLETE breakdown of the emergency systems, communication, multi-agency cooperation, leadership, etc...The failures that evening were a collective failure..which aims my interest now at WHO is in charge of that coordination in times of emergency?
Not only should there be a command system set up on scene by the appropriate agency-FD for fires, PD for law enforcement issues- but an overall city plan for the merging in incidents like this...did I explain that well enough? My fingers and brain have a lack of communication...too much going through my head right now...
August 10, 2007 at 8:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Citizen..nice...deleting tapes...of course if there isn't an incident, I guess I can see their point-lack of storage space...
Fric, probably right...maybe it was too hard for the families to have it sent over the airwaves repeatedly-God bless them...this must be torturous for this to be released...I know I cried when they read the list again to dispatch...
August 10, 2007 at 8:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
The first hour is up now. Starts with the tone out for Engine 11, etc. 60 min+
http://www.charleston.net/audioclips/16/
August 10, 2007 at 8:26 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldfric07 (anonymous) says...
What happened is established. Now people will compare what the city released to private recordings and see if there are gaps. For example, you couldn't hear channel 2.
What's clear is disorganization. There's no doubt about it. We knew it and this confirms it. Who had the bravo or 2 exposure? Who was responsible (1 person) for making sure enough water was being supplied? Who staged incoming apparatus?
We are in Hurricane season. How well do you think a large disaster will be handled? Who will assume Command?
Look-if the first hour isn't released for the sake of the families that's a good idea.
What's a fact is the bravery of the firefighters. They fought hard despite the roadblocks set in front of them. Give them good leadership and watch what they do.
August 10, 2007 at 8:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
Does dispatch in Charleston have access to channel 2? If not it wouldn't be recorded. In my area dispatch doesn't have the fire ground operating channels and they aren't recorded. They would only available from private recording.
August 10, 2007 at 8:40 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Fric,
Absolutely regarding the tapes...the family is who needs to be considered now, the investigation agencies will come in and have access to the rest...if they don't there is a lot of explaining to do...
Unfortunately, if there are private recordings can their integrity be confirmed? The tapes from dispatch can't be edited (excerpts can be released, while others are not), private tapes from citizens can be. In other words, we could certainly listen to them, but they would probably never be admissible...
August 10, 2007 at 8:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldfric07 (anonymous) says...
No. Private tapes are just that-private. So what's out is out.
There are going to be some hard questions asked, even more so than before.
August 10, 2007 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
Oldfric: I did notice right after 10:00, whichever ff was on Ladder 5 realized the mistakes Chief Rusted made, because when the Chief tells him to quit supplying water to the store roof left corner, and to turn it on the warehouse, Ladder 10 asks him to confirm that no one is in the warehouse before he starts dropping water on it. Sounds like you are correct, "give them good leadership and watch what they do."
August 10, 2007 at 8:59 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
FunandGames (anonymous) says...
If you would like to compare Fireground audio with another fire department, go here:
http://www.wusa9.com/news/columnist/b...
There are 3 links at the bottom of the page.
August 10, 2007 at 9:06 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
What do you mean Vesta? Which mistake are you referring to?
August 10, 2007 at 9:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
The mistake he's talking about starting aerial operations on a portion of a structure that is occupied. It will push fire, smoke and debris back on the firefighters insided.
August 10, 2007 at 9:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
I am not sure, but it is as if this ff figured out some ffs were in the building and lost their lives. Sounds like he is thinking, perhaps, from the collapsed roof. We know that is NOT how they died. Does anyone know when (time) the roof collapsed? I am just saying he sounds insecure in carrying out the Chief's orders at this point. As far as the mistakes Rusty made.....well, we are only permitted 3,000 words.
August 10, 2007 at 9:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Vesta,
I'm with you on the mistakes part..I didn't get that impression from the FF transmission though. I thought I DID hear on one tape that some of the men inside could be seen from the exterior (bucket maybe)? Fric, is that possible, probable, pure bunk? That is the impression I got was that they could see some downed FF and were disturbed? Understandably so.
I could be confusing some of the transmissions...like I said, I had a hard time listening to them...
Timeline is posted back on the other page, I believe...I have a copy, will send it to you...If I remember correctly...32 minutes from arrival to collapse? I'll check on that.
August 10, 2007 at 9:23 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Fric,
Your concern and points made regarding Hurricane season are just the kind of disaster I was speaking of. With this current system, how could we fend through another Hugo? I missed that one, I was stationed in Fla., how DID that emergency get handled?
August 10, 2007 at 9:32 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
mac0cm4 (anonymous) says...
aconcernedcitizen - the lack of radio discipline is called 'plain langauge' - endorsed by the morons in DHEC and implemented through their financial blackmail of agencies through NIMS. Contrary to popular belief, plain language is not mandatory....
August 10, 2007 at 9:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hawneena (anonymous) says...
I know we Southerners are friendly, but how unprofessional for whoever that was calling the dispatcher, sweetie, baby, and darlin'. On some jobs that is called sexual harassment; although I know this gentleman didn't mean anything by it. Just doesn't make the department look good.
August 10, 2007 at 9:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Hawneena,
I wasn't touching that one with a ten foot pole! Good job...It gets just as good in the later tapes with females dispatchers conversing with reporters, laughing and joking about them making their day better...
August 10, 2007 at 9:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
mac0cm4:
Departments in my area use plain language, and have since 1991. They have radio discipline, very good radio discipline. Plain language doesn't mean no radio discipline, it is just another way of communicating. And I heard ten-code and signals in use, so is Charleston using codes or plain language? Or are they like alot of departments, they are supposed to be plain language, but in practice they remain status quo?
August 10, 2007 at 10:13 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
newbattleaxe (anonymous) says...
nikiegarbeil,
SCE&G really flubbed up before, during and after Hugo, at least where utility poles were concerned. They assumed they had enough on hand to replace damaged and destroyed poles. Guess again!
Meanwhile, Santee-Cooper was busily calling utilities in areas that weren't going to be affected by Hugo, buying utility poles from them. Result, Santee-Cooper and their Co-op customers had power re-established, on average, sooner than SCE&G customers.
From what I can gather, this is typical of SCE&G, at least since they were taken over/bought out by a non-local concern.
Back when haweena and I were little, I think SCE&G was still local (at least, it was still local when I was little), and it did right by us.
August 10, 2007 at 10:30 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
bjp99 (anonymous) says...
Can anyone tell me what the Car 1 is?
Thanks...
August 10, 2007 at 11:01 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hawneena (anonymous) says...
How about the guy who got tongue-tied trying to say Sofa Super Store. It reminded me of that TV bloopers show. I guess he didn't have anyhing to laugh about as that night progressed. God, I just can't imagine those poor families listening to the tapes.
August 10, 2007 at 11:04 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
hawneena (anonymous) says...
nickie, this is off topic, but I know you have said that you are from a law enforcement family. Can you believe that a blog site referred to our guys as "redneck, cracker cops." This was in reference to the BCSO's arrest of the Egyptians. I thought about how you would tear them a new one for that comment. It was called Blogrunner if you're game. LOL
August 10, 2007 at 11:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
aconcernedcitizen (anonymous) says...
bjp99
Car 1 = Chief of fire department
August 10, 2007 at 11:15 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Newbattleaxe,
I honestly can say I am not really as surprised as I was when I first heard it. The initial shock wore off and the reality of what we already suspected, just one a much bigger scale. This is why there needs to be not only an incident command system but also a city command system for situations that involve more than one agency. I knew the breakdown of the system was bad, but this, in my view, is a breakdown of immense proportions in comparison to what I felt initially.
August 10, 2007 at 11:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Hawneena,
I pay little attention to most of the blog sites...Having grown up a "cop's kid", I was used to hearing a lot of the disparaging comments toward the police...honestly, sometimes they were truth... :-) The rest of the time we have to take into consideration the sources of those remarks...our loved one's may be "pigs" in the public's eyes, but at the end of the day those "pigs go home to their families and take off their badges, the trash disparaging them can't shed their "masks"...can you think of any applications to that theory? ;-)
Our guys have thick skin, they won't feel the sting for long if at all.... :-)
August 10, 2007 at 11:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ccfirefighterchick (anonymous) says...
To all of you that are bad-mouthing our Chief, I have one question... Have any of you ever been in or around a fire scene? Have you ever dealt with the confusion of being that close to that much action? Next time you want to make comments about something you know nothing about, stick to the things that don't mean anything.
Being in the fire family, I can honestly say that these men died bravely and heroically. They died doing something that most of you would never do. They went against their instincts to save lives. If they hadn't rushed in and someone had died, you'd call them cowards. But, because we lost nine great men, you call the department reckless.
These families and "brothers" of the Charleston Nine are still grieving. Give them time to start the healing process before you start bad-mouthing them or their chain of command. Remember what you've said next time you need help. How hipocritical is it to want them around when you personally need them but talk trash when you are at home safe and sound? Do you ever get up in the middle of the night to save someone else's life? Do you give up time with your family to rescue people that you don't know? Do you have to choose between your loved ones and the loved ones of strangers? You sleep in a comfy bed at night and worry about the dog next door waking you up. These men and women on the fire dept sleep in uncomfortable racks and worry about someone needing their help in the middle of the night. They go without sleep, food, or their families to make sure your family is safe and sound.
We should all put our arms around everyone in the City of Charleston Fire Department and show them that we support them. All fire departments need to know that the citizens they are there to protect care about them.
August 11, 2007 at 12:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Firefighterchick,
You need to step back and reevaluate what we have said in our many posts since this tragedy. Our thoughts have been, and continue to be with nothing else BUT those 9 men. That young man was rescued from BEHIND the building, THROUGH the wall. We could have EASILY been reading about those nine heroes ALIVE and still have had them rescue that man. This is a VERY emotional time for everyone, family and friends as well as civilians who are looking out for the future of firefighters in Charleston. We have personally been asked by inside FF (their brothers), outside experts, and even some of those family members you claim we are traumatizing. I will not, for you, or anyone else, stop my quest for the truth regarding what happened in that fire that night.
As for your insinuation that we have no clue, I am a Navy veteran. I served my country proudly, and yes, I protected people both military and civilian. I put myself in harms way for millions of people I didn't know..this is NOT a competition, this is a tragedy of unbelievable proportions, and I have made a vow to NEVER allow these men to have died in vain, whether it be through awareness, or a push to change a failed system. What is it again that YOU are doing? Telling us to ignore the facts? Shall I tell you where I suggest you get off? I think you see my point.
I lay my head on my pillow every night thinking about these men. I wake up every morning, thinking about these men, and I will continue to think about them for the rest of my life. As I type this post in response to you, I am listening to these men and women struggle to control a scene they never had control of in the beginning. My anger is boiling, and my tears streaming. I support the FF of CFD, but I will NOT bury my head in the sand for failure of this capacity EVER again. Don't like it? TOUGH.
You need to look at yourself in the mirror tonight, and ask yourself WHY you are defending something YOU obviously can't understand. I certainly can hear it, and I certainly understand what went on...NEVER AGAIN...NEVER
Devoting their lives to helping people made them heroes, lack of control on the scene has made them VICTIMS...May God bless their souls...NEVER AGAIN, YOU here me??
August 11, 2007 at 1:40 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Something to think about: One man would have been a horrible tragedy, NINE men is a travesty.
People who criticize what we are doing have become a part of the failed system that contributed to these men's deaths. Rusty is NOT a murderer, he is pawn in the game of politics, and a facilitator of the failure of that system. When he becomes a liability to the Mayor, you will see just how expendable he will become. Politicians have no friends.
And just when YOU think you have a clue, don't forget remember that I gave time out of MY life, away from MY family, to ensure that YOU have the Constitutional right to voice YOUR opinion. I think that pretty much levels the playing field between ME and PUBLIC SERVANTS, now doesn't it? In my book, that makes ME part of a brotherhood you are only shirt-tailed into.
Firefighters do not take up their profession to die, they do so with the intent of living long lives, saving as many people as they can, and retiring to become salty old dogs sitting back and reminiscing about the days when they fought the big one. That attitude of going down in a firestorm is nothing more than a superhero romanticism. Grow up my friend, days of Barbie and Skipper are long past, this is the REAL world, and I am POSITIVE these men wanted to LIVE...yes, they would have volunteered to give their lives to save one of ours, but that was not their intent that night, nor was there a necessity for them to do that. The victim was in the REAR outbuilding, attached to the dock. St. Andrews FD went in through the wall to remove him and pull him to safety. Job well done...SO, justify to me, if you can, just what the reason was that sent these men to their last call???
Tell me....when YOU rest your head on YOUR soft cushy pillow at night and drift off to sleep, do YOU ever think about the pillows those nine blessed souls have?
They can no longer speak for themselves, I think they would be honored to know there are a strong willed few who are willing to take up for them now.
Don't attack me, or the fine people posting in this message board until YOU know what OUR intentions are.
August 11, 2007 at 3:07 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
spanky (anonymous) says...
> "These families and "brothers" of the Charleston Nine are still grieving. Give them time to start the healing process before you start bad-mouthing them or their chain of command."
Okay, then how much time should they be given?
What is the magic number of days, weeks, or months?
mjl
August 11, 2007 at 3:37 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldfric07 (anonymous) says...
Many of us have been in fire scenes. That makes it more painful. What we have heard and witnessed is a tragedy.
Chnage is needed and it starts at the top.
August 11, 2007 at 7:55 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ccfirefighterchick (anonymous) says...
Yes, I do know about loss. I knew some of those men that died. I do know most of the survivors. I have spent many days at the stations with the survivors since June 18th. I am still trying to console the ones that are having problems. I am dating a firefighter. I see what they go through on a daily basis.
As for how much time do we give them, Spanky... Have you ever lost anyone? There is no magical number of days, weeks, or months. It is a healing process, and some of the guys handle tragedy better than others. Some are doing pretty good, but a lot of the firefighters are still questioning what they could have done differently. And, might I add, not just the firefighters. Everyone is questioning from the Firefighters, Assistant Engineers, Engineers, Captains, Battalion Chiefs, Assistant Fire Chiefs, and, yes, even Chief Rusty. There is a lot of second-guessing going on within the department.
Were any of you there that night? Were any of you helping the firefighters that night? Being a "Monday-morning" quarterback is the easiest job on Earth.
As for nickiegarbeil, military is completely different from Emergency Service. I grew up military -- both of my parents fought for this great country. But, let me ask you this, did you ever run into a burning building with a whole team to save one life? Did you ever have to put your life on the line for one more human life?
The reason that there were 16 men in the front of the Sofa Super Store is that they were told that more people were trapped inside. They were told that there were more workers in the building, not just the one that they saved. They were told that there was an innocent life still in the showroom. Again, if they had not gone in to find the one mystery person (who we now know was safe on the outside), and had that person died, these brave men would have been called cowards. Look deep within yourselves and reevaluate how you look at emergency workers, not just Firefighters. Law Enforcement, EMS, and Firefighters all get bad publicity when someone dies in a tragedy.
Yes, when I lay my head on my comfy pillow at night, these nine men, their families, and their "brothers" are all on my mind. The same when I wake up in the morning. When I eat my breakfast and go to work and so on. There is very little in my day that doesn't make me think of this tragedy. When I go to the station to see my man, the thoughts and memories of these nine men come flooding back very strong.
August 11, 2007 at 9:59 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
vesta (anonymous) says...
nickie and oldfric: RIGHT ON.
ccfirefighterchick: "I do know most of the survivors." Yes, well, all of us would like to CONTINUE to know the survivors. There were many mistakes made that night that were based on tactics, lack of training and leadership that go back a long time in the CFD. The ff survivors are under a "gag" order not to talk about this to anyone. If mistakes weren't made, why the "gag" order? Did you read today's paper: "Riley acknowledged the importance of the tapes to the public's understanding of the fire and efforts to PREVENT similar tragedies." The operative word here is PREVENT. If, as Riley initially reported, everything was done correctly, there is no PREVENTION. You simply do it the same next time. PREVENT means to study and CORRECT mistakes. We know you are dating a ff and you should probably not get involved in this. Those of us who can are supporting these SURVIVORS so that they can continue to raise families, get married, enjoy life.
August 11, 2007 at 10:50 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
FFChick,
It is obvious you don't have any clue. You, as I said, are shirt-tailed in...within the military and after I spend a total of 13 years in the medical field. DON'T pretend to tell me what I did, or didn't devote to my country or my community. And if you would have read my post in it's entirety, you would have seen that I told you, as military, I served and protected MILLIONS. That was part of my job. But even so, I was, as are firefighters, still entitled to safe working conditions to the BEST ability as can be provided. What is it YOU do again???
Let me give you FACTS sweetheart. FACT: the ENTIRE scene was CHAOS...that isn't normal..not supposed to be...agencies are NOT communicating EFFECTIVELY. FACT:the water supply was INADEQUATE for these brave men-MORE than NINE...try MORE THAN 16!!!. The water was insufficient because they were trying to fill their apparatus with 2.5 inch lines...and the aerial trucks were bleeding them dry trying to provide enough coverage. FACT:the type of building and danger KNOWN to be in those building constructions was not relayed effectively. FACT:there was no RAPID INTERVENTION TEAM-meaning in plain ENGLISH for you-WHEN THOSE MEN GO DOWN, THERE IS NO HELP ON THE WAY!!! HOW the HELL do you think those men felt in there KNOWING they were going to die, because there was NO ONE coming in to find them??????
How DARE you sit with your girlfriend ponpons thinking YOU have a CLUE??? YOU should be JUST as angry as we are, and in a quest for the TRUTH!
As for Rusty, NOT ONCE have I heard that man PUBLICALY state change was imminent. I heard hims say MANY things, most of which shooting himself in the foot, but acknowledging that there were mistakes made? NEVER...If he is feeling badly, then he needs to be accountable for that, and PUBLICLY state that things are wrong and need to be fixed.
BAD publicity? BAD publicity dear is when NINE men die in a fire scene from inadequate staffing, improper equipment, poor training...This is not BAD publicity on OUR part, this is US DEFENDING THEM. PROTECTING them, ENSURING that they will NEVER have to go through another tragedy from these types of mistakes again...
So, you sit there miss GIRLFRIEND. You comfort and console...that is most definitely a needed position...in the meantime the rest of us here will handle the REAL business of standing up for and protecting the men left behind.
August 11, 2007 at 10:57 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
DC12 (anonymous) says...
Firefighterchick has a point.
I am a Chief Officer in a Fire Department in another state. I have been in the chaos and smoke throughout a long career. I have been the incident commander when things didn't go as planned. I do get up at night for somebody else's emergencies, real or imagined. That said, we need to let the professionals investigate this incident before we start heaping blame on people from our comfy chairs. There's plenty of blame to go around. Let's let the pro's with experience and information that we don't have figure out what really happened and how to prevent this kind of tragedy in the future.
Do I like what I hear on the tape? Hell no. Do I like what I saw in the videos, of course not. Do I suspect that there are likely funding, manpower, strategy, command and communications issues in the Charleston FD? You bet! They exist to one degree or another everywhere. However, these things are not the fault of the firefighters. They were doing what they were trained and told to do.
The men and women in that department deserve more than a bunch of Monday morning quarterbacking. As screwed up as this call may have been, nothing should belittle the dedication and sacrifice that these brave men gave to their community. They are my brothers too and so are the rest of the members of the department. Lay off a little. Ask questions, we all are. Have opinions, we all do. But lighten up on the rhetoric until NIOSH and the rest can finish their work.
This is a tragedy and many things went wrong. When the investigation is over many things will change. Uninformed conjecture and attacks at this point will contribute only to confuse the picture, not to learning how to prevent future tragedies.
These people did their jobs and died doing them. The other members of the department lost friends and colleagues. Now a bunch of people who were not there, most of whom have never been in this kind of situation and many of whom don't even understand the obvious parts of what they hear on the tapes want to put in their two cents. Give 'em a break.
I'm not defending the plans, tactics, incident command or anything else about how CFD operates. Just their people. They should be better supported by their City, their officers and by us. Now let's get off their case and get behind them.
And, Spanky: "How much time should they be given?" Whatever it takes. Ever lost a family member? How many "days, weeks, months" did it take you to get over that? That's the best you can do for your only comment? Crawl back into your hole and spare us.
August 11, 2007 at 11:12 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ccfirefighterchick (anonymous) says...
DC12 -- Thank you! Someone that understands what we all go through, even those of us that are just there because of "shirt-tails" according to some people on here. Someone that can give insight into how things can go terribly wrong, even when trying to make them go right. I completely agree! There was a breakdown, but not everything is on the firefighters, or even the chiefs. There are things beyond the department's control. Equipment costs money, and taxpayers don't want to pay more. CPW should have gotten the water pressure issue fixed sooner, but didn't. But, these men were trained very highly. They knew their jobs! They did what they were trained to do.
These brave firefighters need to have all of the support that we can give them. They do something that many people wouldn't do. And, they do it because they love it. They don't do it for money or glory because Lord knows they don't get either one.
The tapes reveal that there are some things that went wrong. There was a lot of chaos and confusion, but that is going to happen in most emergency situations. Things don't always go according to a script. Life happens. Mistakes get made. But, there are professionals that have been called in to find out where changes need to be made and what happened that could be fixed. NIOSH is trained in figuring out what happened. Let them be the judge of what could have been done or possibly should have been done. That is not for any of us to decide. It is not our place to put blame in this situation.
For some reason, nobody has commented about how the owner of the Sofa Super Store screwed up. Hmmm... Building illegally. Not have smoke alarms. Not bothering to spend the money for the sprinkler system. I realize that he didn't have to have the sprinkler system, but don't you think that would have been a good idea??? If we are going to Monday-Morning Quarterback, why didn't he just suck it up and add the sprinkler system and the smoke alarms and have the proper permits for the addition and not petition the city for not having the fire wall????? Don't you think he is as much to blame, if not more, than the brave men that responded that day?
August 11, 2007 at 11:35 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
DC,Since you are not familiar with the way the City of Charleston operates (administration), you cannot understand WHY we are doing what we are doing.If it had not been for those of us screaming, the Mayor would NOT have hired the six investigators to come in to assist the City. In the beginning, the Chief was making remarks that everything went the way they wanted it to, that they fought that fire as they do all fires, and that if they had to do it again, they would. Had it not been for people screaming, as we are now, there would be NO investigation, and the Chief would have never been held accountable for his words.We know every department, including DC has problems, the goal is for people OUTSIDE the FD,to SEE, UNDERSTAND, and APPRECIATE men and women in the public safety arena.THAT also means protect them as they protect us. You misunderstand, for whatever reason, that we ARE behind the men and women of the fire service and police service.Let me make it more clear: WE HAVE BEEN ASKED TO MAKE THESE POINTS ON THIS AND OTHER RELATED MB'S BECAUSE PEOPLE INSIDE ARE UPSET WITH THE WAY THINGS ARE HANDLED AND IGNORED.What you should be feeling when you hear those tapes, is the fear and concern the FF's and citizens are feeling, waiting for the next big event that this City isn't well-prepared to handle.How about the Power Company ORDERED to a scene to turn off possible gas lines that could have taken out the WHOLE group of responders, NOT showing up because they are turned away by the PD? PD's fault???? NO...LACK of PRE-PLAN communication,just to scratch the surface.You want public support, then when you get it,you criticize it.You want to tell us when to sit, fetch,roll over,then support you, but it doesn't work that way, Chief.You want support from the public, then TAKE it when we give it.Confusing the facts? They can't GET anymore confused than they already are.We listen, we ASK questions, we get answers from the men HERE in Charleston,Chief.I have gotten word already this morning,asking me to get the FACTS and explanation out on certain tactics used. Not all disparaging,but ALL informative for the lay person to see,and understand.For your information.NOTHING,since this fire has apparently changed.Same hoses,Same lack of command system,Same unorganization between agencies on the scene.THEY DO NOT WANT TO DIE LIKE THAT,get it?If not,it's YOUR problem.You keep it in DC then,we will take care of our own here,and let you read about it in the paper when these men become the best FD ever through training,learning, and succeeding.As for Spanky,his/her comment was aimed at how much time do we have to give the department in grieving BEFORE we demand change from the top to protect the men we have left.YOU aren't in Charleston,Chief.DC has their own issues to worry about,and since you aren't accurately following the pages as some of us here are,you stay in THAT hole, Spanky can stay in ours.
Take care Chief, God protect you in your job.
August 11, 2007 at 11:46 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Girlfriend,
CPW DID bump up the pressure..there wasn't any more to give trying to supply the trucks with undersized hoses...physics, dear.
BOTHERING to pay for a sprinkler system? Oh GF...LET'S go there. Roughly $50k PLUS for installation of a sprinkler system would NOT have been the problem...the $10k to HOOK into the water lines from the City????? The MONTHLY charge to maintain that hook up with the City...YOU know, the story that ran about Riley DROPPING the fees AFTER the fire? Yes, he SHOULD have had smoke detectors, Yes, he SHOULD have gotten a permit-I am CERTAIN that will be addressed.
I am sure people wouldn't mind paying taxes to get the CFD what they need, IF that is where the money is going! Comeon GF, do you even ASK your bf what reality is inside???
August 11, 2007 at 11:53 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
ccfirefighterchick (anonymous) says...
Yes, nickiegarbeil, I know what it is like inside. I have friends all the up to the top of the department. I know how it works in the department. As for your comments to DC, have some respect! He is a firefighter. Give him the courtesy that his position demands! Whether or not he is in Charleston isn't the point. There are those of us in Charleston that know more about this fire than we can share. We know what happened inside that fire that night. We know what went on inside and outside of that scene. Just because I am only a girlfriend doesn't mean that I don't know. I have information that I can't share, and that may make it sound like I don't know anything about this, but darlin', I do! I know what I am speaking about. Yes, you say that the citizens would be willing to pay more in taxes to support the department, but that isn't a reality. I work closely with the tax system every single day of my life. I hear the complaints when taxes are raised.
Yes, we need some more hoses on the trucks. There will always be equipment that is needed on the trucks, but there has to be money available to pay for that equipment. Want to spend some of your money to assist in getting that? Want to donate to the equipment fund? How much have you given to this departmet before and since this fire? Part of each of my paychecks goes to help the department. (And, I'm not talking taxes here)
CPW bumped up the pressure, but not quickly enough. The PD turning away the gas company is not a Fire Department problem. Controlling the scene and fighting fire is the department's job. Saving lives and property is the department's job. Why was traffic still flowing on Hwy 17 and running over the hoses supplying water to the trucks? Why was that not an issue?
The sprinkler fees are a small price to pay for lives, don't you think? Business owners should be held accountable for that. It's a writeoff on their end, and that would save them some money on their taxes at the end of the year. Isn't that something that maybe they should have considered? The fact is that the business owner is at fault and that isn't being addressed just yet.
The mayor calling in investigators because of public outcry is crap! There were investigators on the scene the next morning. Not enough time for public outcry to call for that, now is it????
August 11, 2007 at 12:19 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
oldcap (anonymous) says...
The facts are clear and apparent. Those of us who know the inside of a fire and know the way the CFD operates understand what happened. I serve in the CFD. No offense meant, but I don't need a girlfriend to tell me how things are on the job. There isn't a single chief or Captain that I don't know. You need to check your comments because you are talking out of your end.
The Chief from another state has a right to voice his opinion and in truth he's just trying to show another angle. Sadly, what he has experienced is far from what he would see if he were to work for the CFD. By that I mean concepts normally accepted by departments everywhere are alien here.
There's no way to spread sugar over salt. It's bitter and will remain so. However, in six months, the department will move in another direction.
August 11, 2007 at 12:36 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
Let me start out by saying this was the very worst fireground Communication tape I have ever heard. No command and control, no chain of command, no senblense of order whatso ever. Multiple communicatons to multiple crews, shouting, confusion, chaos, no acknodegement of transmissions, and that was just car 1. The IC needs to be calm, conscise, deliberate, and able to change tactics as the situation warrants.
The dispatch communication center seemed confused and very unprofessional. Does CFD have CAD, MDT's, AMAR? Disp needs to be also the only link between the fireground and the outside world.
Supply: I heard Eng 16 state they were pumping 250psi through a 2 1/2 to an attack eng, wow. You can only get so much water through a line, no matter how hard you push it.
As far as the SSS responsibility. Were they up to code? If they were, then maybe Charleston needs to look into modifying them. If they weren't, who's responsible for that? Sprinklers were not required and the monthly access fee made them cost prohibitive. The city has apparently lowered these fees. As far as the liability of SSS, I believe the firemans law will shield them from civil liability, but this is unclear.
This was a tragedy of epic proportions and the people of Charleston should not be led to believe that everything was done properly and no changes are needed.
August 11, 2007 at 12:42 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
GF...READ my post for GOD'S sake...ALL of those ARE the problem...This is what I am taking about...YOU THINK you know what people are saying here, you don't. Maybe you should stop talking as if you have to defend the ENTIRE department. We are NOT attacking FF's. I am saying the ENTIRE scene was out of control. PD, GAS, ALL of them should have been answering to ONE person, or TWO people (CHIEF RUSTY and CHIEF of POLICE-standing NEXT to each other to confer).
AND YES the MAYOR DID cave to public outcry. The agencies that were on scene the next morning go to ALL LODD scenes. THAT is a given. The six men hired by the city to head the INTERNAL investigation is what I am referring to. But then again, if you had a REAL clue, you would know that already...Just in case you have doubt. SOME of us are in contact with CITY COUNCIL members behind the scenes.
Got it yet?????
DC Chief, I owe you an apology for my outburst toward you. I understand you have a very clear understanding of the fire service, and I am sure your community has it's fair issues with nepotism(I can ony imagine being in DC). I should not have attacked you in that manner, I am defensive of what I am doing, as I know what my motivations and my drive is truly for. I understand and respect your opinion, however, sir, with all do respect, I disagree with your view that we need to back off.
Please accept my apology as sincere and know that I support ALL public servants in ALL cities. I come from a long line of FF in both Charleston area and other states, as well as being a child of a retired law enforcement member.I know how scenes should be conducted. While not being an expert, much of what went wrong that night was common sense. FF and others are to be TRAINED to know how to handle these types of scenes-it doesn't happen that way here.
Once again, my apologies for the disrespect I gave to you and your opinion.
PLEASE stay safe.
August 11, 2007 at 12:52 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
DC12 (anonymous) says...
Nickie:
DC is the rank not the department. I hear you about the need for a fix for a great big mess. My comments were directed at the speculation and hype that seemed to be aimed at quickly fixing blame rather than fixing systemic problems. Ready, Fire, Aim!
There should be NO delay in getting to the bottom of this mess and NO excuses for the shortcomings that led to it. And, the initial ill conceived statements that nothing was wrong and nothing needed to change will be seen for what they were.
The problems and issues at CFD are systemic, traditional and ingrained with years of training and reinforcement. Hand wringing and crying won't fix them. Nor will blaming the firefighters.
My point was and is, the investigation has started. Let it work.
Presumption, supposition, conclusion jumping and arrogance are likely how things like this happen in the first place. Why repeat the performance?
Just like you erred in jumping to the conclusion that I was from DC or knew nothing about how Charleston works (I spent the first half of my career in another big SC city), you may be reaching inaccurate conclusions about the causes of this disaster and their solutions.
Thanks for your kind words firefighterchick, but you need to back off a little too. Your concern for the people is touching. Firing off attacks at the utilities, the building owner and local sprinkler policies is dropping to the level of the rhetoric that offends you.
For everyone that righteously proclaims that they knew better all along, where were you before these guys died?
As for the comment about Spanky, he was inappropriate and insensitive and I stand by it.
I'll just crawl back in my hole now. At least here we support our firefighters, give them the best training and tools and lead them competently. Its obvious that there is nothing new to be learned in these comments. I'll watch thesecretlist and wait for the results of the investigation.
Signing off.
August 11, 2007 at 1:11 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
DC12 (anonymous) says...
Old Cap & Nickie:
Thanks. Don't misunderstand me, I see the problems. I DO get it. Any well trained firefighter would.
If public outcry has gotten the investigation rolling, great. Just don't be too quick to convict anyone until the investigation is over. A rush to judgement will likely fail to fix enough of the problems and then someday some more brothers will die needlessly.
The firefighters who died and those who still protect the City deserve respect. They also deserve a thorough investigation by qualified people. Once the facts are out, public support to give them the leadership, training and tools they need will be essential.
Just like a Chief to have "just one more thing to say." But there you go!
August 11, 2007 at 1:37 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
NIMS800Chief (anonymous) says...
DC12, the secret list started out with this and many of us watched the same thing and now I have heard it. Heart wrenching doesn't even come close since words cannot describe the scene. Godspeed to the fallen heroes of CFD, their families, friends, comrades. As a 30 year veteran with 20 of those years in chief officer positions for a metropolitan fire department, the investigation will reveal many items that will confirm what we know now and then some. Good list of investigators many of whom I know very well. Truth will be told, ICS-NIMS 100-800 training and much needed policy changes across the board will be the key in getting CFD where they need to be. As to whom is accountible will remain in the investigation findings of all agencies involved.
August 11, 2007 at 2:12 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
DC...District Chief...I get it...Sorry I misunderstood your 'handle'....I am so used to everyone with Charleston in their nicknames.
You and I as well as others obviously agree on the main points. What you call disrespect, I call devoted respect...we could both feasibly call them "tactics".
Conviction is not my motive (although I am pre-law), it is merely to bring attention to people on different levels. First, citizens in this fair city need to see that status quo is NOT ok. Most of them will NEVER read the final reports. Second, for people to see that in the initial days after this tragedy, people within that local establishment DID indeed try to cover up facts, and push it under the carpet. Third, that we sit in the comfort and safety of our homes, almost never thinking of the issues within the public services-taking them for granted, pissing and whining when things don't go as we want(relative term "we" since I don't do it). Well, THIS is why the system doesn't work. Laid out in incremented, tragic, horrifying tapes. The men inside that still work for the City are afraid and unable to voice their concerns, for fear of being transferred to crap stations, or lose their livelihoods, so ask US to do it for them. I offered the only things I have, my brain, my mouth, my hands to type, and my devotion to them and to the cause of making their lives as firefighters better.
This board is nothing more than people sitting together, discussing, sometimes heatedly, the issues of the day. This tragedy is HUGE, but it has brought the community together in ways never before seen. Civilians are aware because we have didn't allow it to go away.
People need to understand and accept the reality that firefighters choose to do their jobs, and acknowledge that it is dangerous, BUT that does not make them expendable.
Now...I would probably make a good Chief with a little education, as I also like to say "one more thing"... :-)
And, get out of that hole, you look silly in there.
August 11, 2007 at 7:41 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
AND...sometimes my grammar is even decent:"....because we haven't allowed it to go away"...
HEY...we need an edit button!! :-)
August 11, 2007 at 7:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
captainscott (anonymous) says...
I have read these posts for almost 4 weeks now. I have read and heard the pain, grieving, anger, confusion from ff's from CFD and the community. Our prayers are for the remaining members and the community to learn and prepare for the next fire. Being a 16 yr Captain of a large dept in NC, I have waited to here some of the facts. I have know for years of the problems in CFD from members that I have meet thru the years. Healing is needed, but denial of what transpired on July 18 will only delay or blind you of the changes needed. I listened with tears to these tapes and realized a few observations. No size up of building construction or fire involvment (except heavy smoke from way out) No IC structure, No command post, Confusions mostly from the Chief or Chief Officers, NO accountibility, NO PAR after missing FF's, NO RIT, No 2in 2out(SC 2in 1 out PITIFUL) NO Rescue, NO staging additional units for R&R or unforeseen emergency, Dispatchers-unprofessional, baby,love,darling,love ya, doll baby, hell of a big fire. A have been on fire scenes of much larger fires, NEVER NEVER risk more than can be gained. The fire service MUST be aggressive in fire attack, but our methods and tactics must be proven and practiced. Unforntunately, nine men gave their lives. Some need to wake up to modern tactics and start implimenting changes that will protect firefighters and when sudden unforeseen dangers occur, your training, experience and SOP's will prove that you did everything possible to ensure the safety of firefighters.
August 11, 2007 at 11:17 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Captain Scott, Thank you so very much for your insight and the inclination to come forward. Please keep suggestions and your interpretations coming.
August 11, 2007 at 11:27 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
fyrmnjim (anonymous) says...
Very well said Cap.
Also equipment needs to be brought up to todays standards: 1 1/2" primary attack line, 4" or 5" supply hose, and TIC's on all equipment for a start.
We must be sure that this tragedy never happens again because of our own shortcomings.
Jim
August 11, 2007 at 11:35 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
What can you Firefighters tell me about NFPA 1710? Logical? Do-able?
What about CFD implementing this?
In addition, what about Commission of Fire Assessment International? Do any of you know about these and is it possible to integrate these principles?
I am still reading what I can on them, so if any of you can increase my knowledge, I would appreciate it.
August 12, 2007 at 12:16 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
captainscott (anonymous) says...
Nickiegarbeil, What could or should 1710 do for CFD or any fire dept??? If your state is opposed to NFPA 1500 language on 2 in 2 out and has only 2in 1 out mentality then 1710 is not do-able. Off the top of my head , basicaly 1710 give flexiblity to a dept not to dictate specifics that might create factors that are impossible to complete. 1710 basically requires that a first attack line, backup line, Rapid Interventions team, IC, safety officer (not doing multiply functions) ventilation, rescue to be completed by a minimum number of personnel in a specfic period of time. Now if your dept chooses to only send two people per unit vs. sending a national minimum standard of 4 people on an engine and 5 min. on a truck then you better have your dispatch center sending a lot of equipment on the intial alarm. Departments who want to say it is too expensive should consider the cost of one death or as in this case nine deaths. Studies have recommended this standard and similiar standard 1500 2in 2 out because of the fact that over 50 % of fatalities are related to fighting interior fires (with no reported rescue) and not having sufficient personnel to rescue our own people when something catistrophic occurs. 2nd, lack of accountability to know when someone is lost (ie someone calling dispatch to advise they heard a mayday when the IC didn't) or how many people are assembled on the scene. The span of control, conflicting orders, personnel freelancing, lack of IC to command a scene in a calm orderly fashion are necessary to limit risking more than can be saved.
August 12, 2007 at 10:20 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Capt.Scott...
Thank you SO much for putting that out here for me. I agree with the expense v gain in the long run. What kind of budget do you think it might take? Hypothetically of course...I can't find my list of their equipment off the top...I'll see if I can find it.
Thanks again for your information...
August 13, 2007 at 1:08 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
GaFF1012 (anonymous) says...
As a firefighter myself there on things on this wall that make me angry. There are many factors that led to the death of these nine brave men. But for the people who are saying stuff like why did they go in and what were they thinking, you need to stop and think of what kind of guys they were. A fire fighter is not just someone who stops and thinks that looks bad, i should probably not go in there. The stop and say there might be someone in there who needs my help. At at the begining of the fire, it was not showing heavy fire envolvment based on pictures that i have seen and what i have read. And I might be wrong, but from what i have seen and read it did not. Any firefighter would have made entry into to check if there were people inside. Thats just how a firefighter thinks. They knew what they were getting into when they signed up to be a firefighter. No one person can be blamed for their deaths. Accidents happen. When roof systems like that collaps they give very little warning. They just go. If they were still uncertain if there were people inside, i would have to say that i would still be searching the structure till someone gave an all clear. So stop blaming this on one person and realize that even if they knew that the roof was going to come down and then knew people were still inside that someone those guys would have still gone in to help them. Just keep that in mind as you go around blaming people.
August 13, 2007 at 11:05 a.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Ga.FF,
You don't send 16 men inside to check for people..they didn't initially, they has a small team inside, there were NO civilians in that building(the civilian was trapped in a rear building with rear only access and was being extricated by St. Andrews men). They were in there for a full on attack, un-prepared. No charged lines upon entry, A/C Garvin opened the fire door, committing them to bring in hoses or abandon. Brass chose to fight it, not seeing the BIG picture(clear signs of strain on the roof trusses from outside the building, IN FRONT OF THEIR CAR!!!Not VERY little warning, BIG WARNING FROM THE START.
If this was a rescue, the actions would be warranted by the men going in for RESCUE, but the brass KNEW there was no one else inside. The man in the rear was freed nearly TEN MINUTES prior to flashover and collapse. Why no pull out then?
You can bury your head in the sand in Ga., Sir, but with all do respect, we won't stand for more men dying here.
August 13, 2007 at 1:43 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
canman (anonymous) says...
First, to all the families and brothers of the Charleston 9, you are not alone, the whole fire service (and evidently at least some of your city too) grieves this horrible tragedy.
Second, DC12 - clear, nice, educated, and chiefly. The only problem (not really) is that people are hurting from this loss, and they want answers. I believe what you are getting at is that before we skewer anybody and lay blame, we need to let the process work. I understand and support that, but I will also add that when you are personally involved, know the victims, and the circumstances surrounding the event, you dont neccesarily need anybody to condense it into a 1500 page NIOSH LODD document to know where the weaknesses lie.
Third, ffchick - on this job, we call girls like you "groupies". You should shut up and support your bf. You obviously have absolutely no idea about what this job is or is not. My wife is an M.D., been married for 15 years, but it doesn't make me a doctor. Why dont you try to keep your mouth shut and be half the person your dog thinks you are. I'll bet you sleep in his t-shirts and love telling your friends how your bf is a fireman. Well it dont make you one, and any talk you may hear (all they way to the top) always has more than one side. If you had to live in a station for 1/3 of your life, you'd know what i'm talking about.
Fourth, I'd like to say keep it up to the folks who are really involved with this thing. Seeing community members so involved with this is really refreshing. In fact, you folks are paying more attention to this tragedy than most of the fire service. We need people on the outside who cannot be coerced or threatened by intimidation for fear of reprisal to help. I cant say this for anyone in CFD, but from where I'm standing (and alot of others), were honored and appreciative that you care.
Lastly, to the brothers who so bravely went before me, Thank you, I love and miss you, and God speed. I'll see you at the other end of the hallway. FTM-PTB-RFB-EGH.
August 13, 2007 at 3:39 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Thanks canman....we've got your backs guys.
August 13, 2007 at 4:31 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AncientFireEMSGuy (anonymous) says...
First off, my heart goes out to all who are in any way connected to these events. (This would include all most all who have posted here.....including myself due to our connection with the Emergency Services and its 'Extended Family.)
So far, DC 12 has put it best, although I did not read all of the posts due to the "Arm Chair" attitudes.
I have been a Firefighter for over 25 years and currently working in a Paramedic capacity. In doing so, I see both worlds and their downfalls.
There are 2 schools out there....still, 'The Old School' and 'The New Way'. Both, in my opinion, have merits.
In 'The Old Days', we had 3 men to an Attack Line, 2 for the hose and 1 to act as your helper and Guard Man. He would stay at the door and listen and watch out for your wellbeing.
Today, we have 'Entry Control' and most often, 2 Firefighters on an Attack Line.
These 2 different methods accomplish basically the same thing. Reason for change, partly due to less manpower and a way needed to be found to monitor efforts and Safety.
It's "New"......and the 'Old Guys' don't like it.....It's a change.
So now we have "Them" and "Us" and "They".
The 'Old Guys' want to stay doing the 'Old Way' and the "New Guys" want to do it the new way... and so the battle begins.
We also have Chiefs now who are more a Politician than a Firefighter. Then something happens and they assume the role of a Firefighter and are unable to fulfill the demands...and refuse to admit it, get in over their head and continue to try to manage the situation.
This is not good!
They have taken the 'Courses' but never really had the practical expirience to maintain or in some cases, gain the ability....and suddenly are thrust into a situation.
Is this the case in Charleston.....I don't know, but I do know it is the case in several growing and large departments.
And so the lines are drawn in the sand.
Because I see the merits of both sides, I get causght in the middle and some how don't belong on eithier side of the fence. And because I speak out for what is right in each given situation....I am labelled as "Not a Team Player".
I have even been "Fired" from a Volunteer Department with absolutley no reason given, I believe because I went against the 'Old Guys'.
When suggestions were given, 'they' would not like it and would state that 'those ways' will never work or be used here.
Less than 6 years later, they suddenly had an idea.....and changed to the 'New Ways' and use ALL of the sugestions that were made to them.....but it was their 'New' idea!
Bottom line of all this, there are systems out there that work. There are ways to accomplish things. There are ways to work together to achieve them.
All we have to do is evaluate matters for there merits and utilize what is right....no matter which side suggests it.
Lets work together to try and NEVER let something like this happen again.
August 13, 2007 at 4:55 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
canman (anonymous) says...
AncientFireEMSGuy,
WTF???!!!
Never heard of a ff getting off big red (voluntarily) and going to the dark side (EMS - which by the way stands for "Every Minute Sucks", or "Every Medic Sucks".
August 13, 2007 at 5:18 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
AncientFireEMSGuy (anonymous) says...
Well Son, I have the best of both Worlds where I am.....and it works! We work together without attitude.
I get to do both at the same time for the betterment of my community.
And with attitude like that, it's not hard to see why relations are strained. Yes, there are Medics out there with attitudes....but apparently we have firefighters with similar attitudes.
Remember what our #1 Goal is......"Preserve Life"
Work together to achieve that, it will go along way!!
Now back on topic please.
August 13, 2007 at 7:16 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
captainscott (anonymous) says...
Nickiegarbeil, It is a very complicate formula to determine staffing levels, response times, types of building protected etc to answer your question. I would suggest that you google NFPA 1710 and also look at a text such as Managing Fire Service Chapter 5 "Evaluating Community Fire Protection". Basically a communtiy need to assess what levels of protection are needed and demanded. There has been alot of talk over ISO rating. Alot of factors are involved but most is concerning water supply, communications and fire apparatus & equipment. Any suggestions that a rating such as a 1 is because of how a FD operates is misleading. Two factors specfically involve water supply. I would question that fire loads in an area with large structures with moderate to heavy fire loads using 2 1/2 in a supply lines would be inadequate and therefore would be penaltized with points for not being able to have adequeate water supply. Also communication. You listen to the tapes and draw a reasonable assessment of professionalism that would maximize your ISO rating.?? There has been talk that part of the historic district relating to fire protection is exempt? How does that play into this rating? I'm also not suggesting that the City of Charleston doesn't deserve this rating. You would have to read the final report.
August 13, 2007 at 8:45 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
nickiegarbeil (anonymous) says...
Capt. Scott,
Thank you for that explanation..I will look that up. I appreciate your patience with me.
August 13, 2007 at 10:54 p.m. ( permalink | suggest removal )
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